NST Report: Bleak outlook for Singapore
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Originally posted by kenhor:
To Gun,
You said, [b]Many hadn't think twice before putting foth their simpliestic argument that defence expendition or "white elephants" should be reduced. Don't these people realise that we are living a dangerous time ?
We are living in dangerous times. But what is the MAIN danger nowadays? I fear more for terrorist attacks than a neighbour launching invasion. A hijacked airliner is a more credible threat than an invasion.
which threat is more credible is not for you to say... cos you are not in the in group... the top group... u dont know everything... thus your opinion is not gonna worth much... 
With that in mind, it is indeed foolish to spend on white elephants such as a submarine. Will that deter the terrorist from blowing up targets? Will a JSF be able to stop a plane from crashing into CBD even if we shot it full of missiles? the investment in subs and JSF will enable singapore to gain new insights into technologies and enchance singapore's deterence value.... so if missiles cant prevent a plane from crashing into the CBD... should we then invest money in phasers or veritech robotech fighters that can??
As we live in such dangerous times and with a new threat, as well as great disatisfaction among the populace, I see that its time to change the mindset and get rid of the white elephants.[/b] i see one big white blur elephant... and yes,.... its you.. -
[size=large]True White Elephant(s)[/size]
White elephant #1 Bakun dam
White elephant #2 KLIA
White elephant owner
White elephant lineups.
A complain about these white elephants.
But pls do not be dispair. Singapore has her own one too
Suzhou Industrial Park -
ECONOMY: Singapore, Malaysia Most 'Globalised' Developing Nations
WASHINGTON, Jan 7 (IPS) - Led by Ireland, Switzerland, and Sweden, the countries of northern and western Europe are once again the world's most ''globalised'' nations, according to the third annual edition of Foreign Policy magazine's 'Globalisation Index', released Tuesday.
Singapore (4) and Malaysia (18 ) topped the list of developing countries, says the report,
Oddly Singapore is placed under "developing" country category
eventhough Malaysia is the second Asian nation at a distance 18th. -
Even PricewaterhouseCoopers' Malaysian office gets nationalistic
in their report
Budget 2003: How Do We Stack Up Against Singapore?
By Jennifer Chang
Executive Director, Tax and Business Consulting Services PricewaterhouseCoopers Malaysia report -
Originally posted by kenhor:
We are living in dangerous times. But what is the MAIN danger nowadays?
Today's main threat ?
IMO, the real threat will be the ignorance and complacency that can
set in after years of peaceful existence having benefited from the
aggressive development of military capacity during early days of
independence. Failure to appreciate this capacity of deterrence is
itself a THREAT.With that in mind, it is indeed foolish to spend on white elephants such as a submarine. Will that deter the terrorist from blowing up targets? Will a JSF be able to stop a plane from crashing into CBD even if we shot it full of missiles?
Such shallow notion that Singapore's military acquisitions are
ased solely on showmanship or national pride (hence "white
elephant"), reflects the inability to understand why Singapore's
defence doctrine consistently commands international respect.
Did SAF earn its recognition through hardware assets alone
eventhought it has yet to engage a single major conflict ?
No. It is her ability to maintain focused and integrated system
based approach that allow every single cent spend to enhance its
existing capabilities. E.g. JSF will be THE LARGEST development
of a single basic multi-role fighter in the next decade or more and
Singapore's involvement will allow previledged access to the
critical stages of planning and development. The JSF base system
of Lockheed's design borrows heavily from two of her existing
products, F22 Raptor and the proven F16, which Singapore has
already operating experience on.
White elephant it certainly not.As we live in such dangerous times and with a new threat, as well as great disatisfaction among the populace, I see that its time to change the mindset and get rid of the white elephants.
You can't be any more wrong.+++++++++++++++++++
One of Singapore 2003 Defence budget objective:
The capabilities derived through this expenditure will enable the Government to increase SingaporeÂ’s preparedness to handle both conventional and unconventional threats. -
Originally posted by kenhor:
For those who think that the article above is biased, here is one by the Far East Economic Review .. enjoy
ASIAN ECONOMIC OUTLOOK: SINGAPORE
Elusive Recovery
I don't see any new thing in this article other than a regurgitation
of what was publicly said by the Singapore's government. However, the title of this article is notably less "bleakish" than the Malaysian one. Bias ? Well, based on their reporting style of
past several months on Singapore's position, I rather let the readers decide . -
well, most of us are able to accept that things aren't going as well as it used to, and some of us are confident of riding the waves (or the lack of it )
but we have to bear in mind that many people are badly hit and pissed off... and its not that they're not willing to get themselves re-employed, but that they face genuine problems getting another job.
the gov't shouldn't just brush them aside by saying that its "structural unemployment" and leave them to their own devices with little assistance.
anyone got any comments about how older workers can remain relevant in the "new economy"?
(personally, i think that getting screwed by the economy is nothing new still, its what everyone likes to call it so what the heck...) -
I am a recent graduate, i have heard of all recent unemployment rates increasing. But I am not worried, I am willing to go low, real low, albeit temporily. I am willing to take $1400 - $1500 gross a fren company is offering. Such pay will seem obscene to some graduates, some diplomas holders may even reject it. I however am more than willing to take it and they are arranging an interview. Who doesnt want a job that pays what u deserve but If i never work, how on earth will i ever get the "relevant experience" that so many jobs are demnading now? If I never work, I would be income=0, but i rather have $1400 than 0. Men whines. Real men adapts.
But for the sake of discussion, current situations, what can the government do more to help us? -
Thats the way.Better to have something than to have nothing.BTW gd luck to the future.
-
From your logic, i managed to decifer yr point of view.Originally posted by kenhor:To Gun,
You said, Many hadn't think twice before putting foth their simpliestic argument that defence expendition or "white elephants" should be reduced. Don't these people realise that we are living a dangerous time ?
We are living in dangerous times. But what is the MAIN danger nowadays? I fear more for terrorist attacks than a neighbour launching invasion. A hijacked airliner is a more credible threat than an invasion.
With that in mind, it is indeed foolish to spend on white elephants such as a submarine. Will that deter the terrorist from blowing up targets? Will a JSF be able to stop a plane from crashing into CBD even if we shot it full of missiles?
As we live in such dangerous times and with a new threat, as well as great disatisfaction among the populace, I see that its time to change the mindset and get rid of the white elephants..
THERE ARE SOME MAD PPLE UP THERE WHO MIGHT THREATEN WAR. LETS ABOLISH THE SAF TO CUT COST ,
sounds totally illogical.Bah -
Originally posted by kenhor:
If just strictly on the issue of terrorism, which close aide of osama told you that they cant committ acts of terrorism by sea? If you cant confirm that, then buying a submarine to protect our waters is crucial.
With that in mind, it is indeed foolish to spend on white elephants such as a submarine. Will that deter the terrorist from blowing up targets? Will a JSF be able to stop a plane from crashing into CBD even if we shot it full of missiles? -
Originally posted by kenhor:
First World Person....Third World Mentality...
To Gun,
You said, [b]Many hadn't think twice before putting foth their simpliestic argument that defence expendition or "white elephants" should be reduced. Don't these people realise that we are living a dangerous time ?
We are living in dangerous times. But what is the MAIN danger nowadays? I fear more for terrorist attacks than a neighbour launching invasion. A hijacked airliner is a more credible threat than an invasion.
With that in mind, it is indeed foolish to spend on white elephants such as a submarine. Will that deter the terrorist from blowing up targets? Will a JSF be able to stop a plane from crashing into CBD even if we shot it full of missiles?
As we live in such dangerous times and with a new threat, as well as great disatisfaction among the populace, I see that its time to change the mindset and get rid of the white elephants.[/b] -
WHOA!!!
back to the point... lets not start a flame war here... and Moderator, shame on you for your inflammatory comment
the dude has a right to his comments even though we may not agree and some of his points DO have some merit. the gov't can never do enough to help those badly screwed by the economy.
failure to keep their ears on the ground can have serious repercussions.
what can be done to help those badly hit by structural unemployment besides the gov't peptalk.
lets be a bit more constructive here... hypothetically... what more can be done... not just to help workers help themselves, since many are middle aged, with families and might not know where to start to pick up the pieces of their shattered dreams... but to help them more directly.
seriously... welfare state anyone? -
Originally posted by CX:
welfare state? meaning for the sake of EVERY single living soul in singapore, all other things must be sacrificed to make sure they are living well....
WHOA!!!
back to the point... lets not start a flame war here... and [b]Moderator, shame on you for your inflammatory comment
the dude has a right to his comments even though we may not agree and some of his points DO have some merit. the gov't can never do enough to help those badly screwed by the economy.
failure to keep their ears on the ground can have serious repercussions.
what can be done to help those badly hit by structural unemployment besides the gov't peptalk.
lets be a bit more constructive here... hypothetically... what more can be done... not just to help workers help themselves, since many are middle aged, with families and might not know where to start to pick up the pieces of their shattered dreams... but to help them more directly.
seriously... welfare state anyone?
[/b]
then we might as well turn back to communism and make everyone share their wealth....lets tok nearer to home, Australia, nice country, nice place to stay in, i was even tempted to work there and live there, but u noe something that I will forever never move there? Its that the government takes care of the people TOO MUCH. Giving out doles is simply not helping. I get people as young as 18, 19, girls and boys coming up to me begging for money and hey they are not like beggars in singapore, poor dressed, they are in clean clothings. I dun wan Singaporeeans to be spoonfed, work for your feed, if u earn enuff for porridge so be it, if u earn much for abalone, so be it, be contented, stop looking at others and u will realise how fortunate we are. -
Why do we have to panic and call it “Welfare State”, each time when the word “dole” is mentioned?Originally posted by gasband:welfare state? meaning for the sake of EVERY single living soul in singapore, all other things must be sacrificed to make sure they are living well....
then we might as well turn back to communism and make everyone share their wealth....lets tok nearer to home, Australia, nice country, nice place to stay in, i was even tempted to work there and live there, but u noe something that I will forever never move there? Its that the government takes care of the people TOO MUCH. Giving out doles is simply not helping. I get people as young as 18, 19, girls and boys coming up to me begging for money and hey they are not like beggars in singapore, poor dressed, they are in clean clothings. I dun wan Singaporeeans to be spoonfed, work for your feed, if u earn enuff for porridge so be it, if u earn much for abalone, so be it, be contented, stop looking at others and u will realise how fortunate we are.
This can only be the result of the successful propaganda that Singaporeans have grown up with.
Why limit the "dole" to the Australian model?
There are constructive models of "dole" being handed out to help the desparate and destitute to tide over a period, and which is tied to their efforts in getting a job.
The amount that the Government allows the GIC and GLC to spend on overseas acquisitions and investments, and some of which failed spectacularly could have helped the many older workers who have lost their jobs, or who are in the Old Folks Home, and also extend some financial help to those small businesses that are facing the financial squeeze by the Banks, as a result of the bad business environment (not by way of direct bail out, but by extending soft loans to the Banks, to tide over this period; or by way of policy changes to reduce their cash deposit with the MAS).
Some of the GLCs have made mega-million dollar acquisitions of foreign companies that are suffering from the present global economic downturn; and in so doing have bailed out those Companies and preserve jobs of the foreigners, while making a strategic in-road into the foreign markets.
This can be seen in the acquisition of a failed Shipyard in the USA, and a financially strapped Australian and Indonesian Telecom Companies, cash-crunched banks in Thailand and Hongkong (which led to our own DBS bank bleeding profusely, necessitating its take over of the profitable POSB to acquire its assets - a disguised bail out in reverse).
What about the Singapore situation? What has the GLCs done in Singapore for the Singapore Workers, besides cutting wages and reducing staff?
What has the GLCs done to make themselves more competitive in a high wage cost environment that is largely the doing of the Singapore Government in its hurried goal to achieve the Swiss Standard of Living?
If the Government do not wish to be seen as interfering in the local banking transactions, and to interfere into normal banking business of dealing with bad loans, then at least ease up on the credit squeeze, and allow a return of a business climate of confidence that allow some level of stability for those businesses that are faced with a financial crunch during this bad patch.
Singaporeans are fortunate insofar as when being compared to the worst case paupers in the streets of some of our ASEAN neighbors.
Have you not seen the many families living in Single Room, Two Rooms and even 3-Room HDB Flats that have to take on second jobs to make ends meet? Have you not seen the aged pushing a trolley stacked with empty cardboard cartons just to eke out a daily meal? Did you not read of the two 60+ year old women, making a living selling "wontan" noodles, being forced to take out a loan just to buy over their rented HDB Hawker Stall; and finally going bankrupt as their meagre daily sales can hardly cover the loan instalments?
Most of the second jobs are in hawker centers, working as cleaners, sweepers, or as coffee shop assistants. Some even take on part time jobs as Relief Taxi Drivers, Trishaw Riders for down-town tours, or even as Security Guards.
Are you misleading yourself that Singapore is NOT a “Communist State”?
In the mid-1970’s, Singapore was thrown out from being a member in the Socialist Democrat Union for being too “communistic” in the manner that the Singapore Government conduct its relationships with the Opposition and citizens that oppose its policies.
The supremacy of the Single Ruling Party that governs Singapore is an ideal model even for the Communist Party of China.
The manner in which the Internal Security Act, Mental Health Institutions, and a multitude of local legislations being used to suppress dissenting views and handle the Opposition Party, can only leave much to be desired, and is not unlike the situation that exist in the Stalinist period of Russia, and even in China today. -
sigh sigh... you and your rampage about glcs, the bastard gov't and the oppressive law again... I AM BORED OF TALKING TO YOU
stop carrying your issues between your bloody buttocks!
everytime see u criticize criticize only... no program, no alternative, no constructive suggestion... sigh... u're just another moaner and groaner.
on another note... the dole is hardly an unconditional cash handout. conditions apply in its application *DuH*
u don't get dough if u do not attend the requisite number of job interviews within a time period. u don't get dough if u reject work.
and if we modify it to suit our situation, it can help a lot of people. and of couse, they'll be people trying to abuse the system, and the costs associated with such a system, financial and social...
the thing is, will Sg be better with it or better off without it. i think a limited form of the dole might be a good idea.
and lets have constructive comments for a change... we've heard enough about how the system screws u and how people got screwed by the system... complaining about that all day gets u nowhere! -
Exactly what I have "hinted" that there are alternative models of the "dole" support system, other then the Australian experience.Originally posted by CX:sigh sigh... you and your rampage about glcs, the bastard gov't and the oppressive law again...[b] I AM BORED OF TALKING TO YOU
stop carrying your issues between your bloody buttocks!
everytime see u criticize criticize only... no program, no alternative, no constructive suggestion... sigh... u're just another moaner and groaner.[/b][/quote]
Sighing will not help, and seeing "issues between bloody buttocks" will only make you view those issues posted in a "cock-eyed" way only.
Looks like it is a knee jerk reaction on your part when you read my posts, without discerning the points posted (??)
No constructive suggestions ?
Try reading again, or shall I break it up and make it easier for your comprehension ?
"Why limit the "dole" to the Australian model?
There are constructive models of "dole" being handed out to help the desparate and destitute to tide over a period, and which is tied to their efforts in getting a job."
"The amount that the Government allows the GIC and GLC to spend on overseas acquisitions and investments, and some of which failed spectacularly could have helped the many older workers who have lost their jobs, or who are in the Old Folks Home, and also extend some financial help to those small businesses that are facing the financial squeeze by the Banks, as a result of the bad business environment (not by way of direct bail out, but by extending soft loans to the Banks, to tide over this period; or by way of policy changes to reduce their cash deposit with the MAS)."
"If the Government do not wish to be seen as interfering in the local banking transactions, and to interfere into normal banking business of dealing with bad loans, then at least ease up on the credit squeeze, and allow a return of a business climate of confidence that allow some level of stability for those businesses that are faced with a financial crunch during this bad patch."...on another note... the dole is hardly an unconditional cash handout. conditions apply in its application *DuH*
u don't get dough if u do not attend the requisite number of job interviews within a time period. u don't get dough if u reject work.
and if we modify it to suit our situation, it can help a lot of people. and of couse, they'll be people trying to abuse the system, and the costs associated with such a system, financial and social...
the thing is, will Sg be better with it or better off without it. i think a limited form of the dole might be a good idea.
Abuse will always exist in any system or program, and especially when something that is offered free.
However, does the majority have to suffer due to the misbehaviour of the few?
There is a larger majority of helpless elderly, whose continued joblessness are affecting the educational prospect of their children.
Do we dare risk the next generation being poorly educated as a result of this generation not being able to afford to pay for school fees (of all types and categories - sports, ncc, etc), or to pay for proper diets, study materials, and what have you?
[quote]...and lets have constructive comments for a change... we've heard enough about how the system screws u and how people got screwed by the system... complaining about that all day gets u [b]nowhere![/b]It is a matter of perception, if you prefer to look at it as moans and groans, so be it.
However, two or three generations have been fed with propaganda about the achievements of Singapore, and the feel good syndrome is so pervasive that any alternative views (of how hollow that feeling is dependent on) will only elicit an agressive retaliation for the attempt to burst the bubble of deceit. -
That's the reality now: Everyone is now fighting over a shrinkingOriginally posted by gasband:I am willing to go low, real low, albeit temporily. I am willing to take
$1400 - $1500 gross a fren company is offering.
pie and it may or may not last long. Singapore is at another cross
road now, and it'll take young ones like you to make or break
present day challenges. But be prepared to get disappointed or
even dissillusioned when things do not go your way even 5 yrs from
now as this will be part&parcel of today's globlised economy.
Life is a journey of unpredictability. -
I see that some have totally missed the mark now as they did 4 months ago.
When did I say that the SAF is the white elephant? When did I say to abolish the SAF. See how you have twisted my words again. Its the JSF, submarines that I am attacking
And FYI, the top speed of a submarine is like what? 15 knots? Can it outrun a speed boat packed with explosives heading towards a parked supertanker?
Also, there is someone who mentioned that diverting funds from SAF to the economy is like taking from the left hand and giving to the right.
Let me tell that person that the SAF is a COST centre and taking money from a COST centre and putting money in a PROFIT centre makes good economic sense. -
We are a communist State? Ok so i supposed that with communist states like CHina in the past, you are captured and tortured for using foreign imported goods? You are sharing ALL your money with me? You are not legalised to have your possessions? Ok then, poor u, you are living in your communist world. I hope u get ur freedom soon.Originally posted by Atobe:Why do we have to panic and call it “Welfare State”, each time when the word “dole” is mentioned?
This can only be the result of the successful propaganda that Singaporeans have grown up with.
Why limit the "dole" to the Australian model?
There are constructive models of "dole" being handed out to help the desparate and destitute to tide over a period, and which is tied to their efforts in getting a job.
The amount that the Government allows the GIC and GLC to spend on overseas acquisitions and investments, and some of which failed spectacularly could have helped the many older workers who have lost their jobs, or who are in the Old Folks Home, and also extend some financial help to those small businesses that are facing the financial squeeze by the Banks, as a result of the bad business environment (not by way of direct bail out, but by extending soft loans to the Banks, to tide over this period; or by way of policy changes to reduce their cash deposit with the MAS).
Some of the GLCs have made mega-million dollar acquisitions of foreign companies that are suffering from the present global economic downturn; and in so doing have bailed out those Companies and preserve jobs of the foreigners, while making a strategic in-road into the foreign markets.
This can be seen in the acquisition of a failed Shipyard in the USA, and a financially strapped Australian and Indonesian Telecom Companies, cash-crunched banks in Thailand and Hongkong (which led to our own DBS bank bleeding profusely, necessitating its take over of the profitable POSB to acquire its assets - a disguised bail out in reverse).
What about the Singapore situation? What has the GLCs done in Singapore for the Singapore Workers, besides cutting wages and reducing staff?
What has the GLCs done to make themselves more competitive in a high wage cost environment that is largely the doing of the Singapore Government in its hurried goal to achieve the Swiss Standard of Living?
If the Government do not wish to be seen as interfering in the local banking transactions, and to interfere into normal banking business of dealing with bad loans, then at least ease up on the credit squeeze, and allow a return of a business climate of confidence that allow some level of stability for those businesses that are faced with a financial crunch during this bad patch.
Singaporeans are fortunate insofar as when being compared to the worst case paupers in the streets of some of our ASEAN neighbors.
Have you not seen the many families living in Single Room, Two Rooms and even 3-Room HDB Flats that have to take on second jobs to make ends meet? Have you not seen the aged pushing a trolley stacked with empty cardboard cartons just to eke out a daily meal? Did you not read of the two 60+ year old women, making a living selling "wontan" noodles, being forced to take out a loan just to buy over their rented HDB Hawker Stall; and finally going bankrupt as their meagre daily sales can hardly cover the loan instalments?
Most of the second jobs are in hawker centers, working as cleaners, sweepers, or as coffee shop assistants. Some even take on part time jobs as Relief Taxi Drivers, Trishaw Riders for down-town tours, or even as Security Guards.
Are you misleading yourself that Singapore is NOT a “Communist State”?
In the mid-1970’s, Singapore was thrown out from being a member in the Socialist Democrat Union for being too “communistic” in the manner that the Singapore Government conduct its relationships with the Opposition and citizens that oppose its policies.
The supremacy of the Single Ruling Party that governs Singapore is an ideal model even for the Communist Party of China.
The manner in which the Internal Security Act, Mental Health Institutions, and a multitude of local legislations being used to suppress dissenting views and handle the Opposition Party, can only leave much to be desired, and is not unlike the situation that exist in the Stalinist period of Russia, and even in China today.
Seen poor people? Who hasnt seen poor people? I even have poorer people for relatives who suffer to make ends meet to discover in the end that their hard work does not earn them as much as some people do. Fair? I dont think so. Does working in hawkers or as security guards or any jobs u mentioned, 2nd class? If any, from the way u phrase it, you are the one who thinks they are 2nd class. I have relatives who serve kopi in coffeshops btw and they are happy that they have a job.
And your dissentment at foreign acquisitions? Tell you a secret, cos u may not have been reading the newspapers due to being coop up in ur small world, OPtus reported its first profits anyway, so worthless investments? Dun judge too soon.
I dun mean to be sarcastic or flammatory, I only want to tell you that in almost every post I see you make, you are always against everything the government is doing. No point being radical for the sake of being radical. Show us your abilities in making a neutral and objective analysis and your opinions will be respected.
Paraphrasing what JFK said, what have you done to improve the situation then?
When we are young, we wanted to change the world.
When we realised we cant, we narrowed our scope and tried to change a nation.
Still, a nation is too big, we tried to change our community.
Then we realized that a community is still far too big, so we tried to change our family unit.
Now when we are old, we should realise that if we change ourselves, we can influence our family, who will influence our community, which will impact a nation and influence the world.
Far fetched but at least more realistic. -
dont anyhow label COST and PROFIT centre blah blah blah....Originally posted by kenhor:I see that some have totally missed the mark now as they did 4 months ago.
When did I say that the SAF is the white elephant? When did I say to abolish the SAF. See how you have twisted my words again. Its the JSF, submarines that I am attacking
And FYI, the top speed of a submarine is like what? 15 knots? Can it outrun a speed boat packed with explosives heading towards a parked supertanker?
Also, there is someone who mentioned that diverting funds from SAF to the economy is like taking from the left hand and giving to the right.
Let me tell that person that the SAF is a COST centre and taking money from a COST centre and putting money in a PROFIT centre makes good economic sense.
me seriously dont think you understand economics.....
and seriously there is no point teaching a cow to fly... cos ... that aint gonna happen...
as for the value of JSF and subs on terrorist war... i think it depends on how one uses ones tools... just as nobody would try to cut a piece of meat with a rubber knife... (maybe kenhor use his head to chop tree... but i wont... )
the JSF and submarines will function in their respective areas of expertise... which may or may not be related to anti-terrorist war depending on situation and circumstances...
lastly... i think ... the only way to counter terrorist admist us.. is... divert more funds into intelligience gathering... (but i can see kenhor screaming COST center ) -
to tripwire
dont anyhow label COST and PROFIT centre blah blah blah.... me seriously dont think you understand economics..... and seriously there is no point teaching a cow to fly... cos ... that aint gonna happen...
as for the value of JSF and subs on terrorist war... i think it depends on how one uses ones tools... just as nobody would try to cut a piece of meat with a rubber knife... (maybe kenhor use his head to chop tree... but i wont... )
the JSF and submarines will function in their respective areas of expertise... which may or may not be related to anti-terrorist war depending on situation and circumstances...
lastly... i think ... the only way to counter terrorist admist us.. is... divert more funds into intelligience gathering... (but i can see kenhor screaming COST center )
I don't think you should be against me personally as I am posting this for our country's good. Your snide remarks make you look like a person with an agenda. Lets discuss this rationally.
As for economis, a profit centre is a department of a company that can generate revenue or profit for the company. A cost centre is one that can not generate revenue, but can be use to improve quality etc.
Our SAF is a cost centre. It absorbs money. The Port is a profit centre. It brings in money. So taking money from the SAF and putting it into the port (or biotech or stock market) is justifable.
As for beefing up security against terrorist, I am supportive of it. Lets increase funding to such units and we can take the money from the white elephants.
We can discuss objectively what the white elephants are. -
However, two or three generations have been fed with propaganda about the achievements of Singapore, and the feel good syndrome is so pervasive that any alternative views (of how hollow that feeling is dependent on) will only elicit an agressive retaliation for the attempt to burst the bubble of deceit.
hello!!! are u on the same planet??? did u read the title of this topic? is ANYONE here under any illusions that all is well??? every man on the street who has just lost his job is reconsidering his vote for the next election...
don't be bombastic for the mere sake of it.
and my points on the dole was not directed at u. don't be daft."The amount that the Government allows the GIC and GLC to spend on overseas acquisitions and investments, and some of which failed spectacularly could have helped the many older workers who have lost their jobs, or who are in the Old Folks Home, and also extend some financial help to those small businesses that are facing the financial squeeze by the Banks, as a result of the bad business environment (not by way of direct bail out, but by extending soft loans to the Banks, to tide over this period; or by way of policy changes to reduce their cash deposit with the MAS)."
ah... could have helped, but did not... why? cos u're abusing hindsight. how would anyone know which investment would fail?
u're blame-storming... and where does THAT get u?
look, if i HAD known what was gonna happen, i would've struck TOTO already.
now, its not something that everybody believes, but GLCs would actually vehemently deny that they are being prodded up with tax-payers money... i believe part of it... its a grey area... very difficult to state in black-and-white terms.
i think that not all of it lost is tax dollars take ST for instance... not all its subsidiaries are making money, but it is possible for the money making ones to cover some of the losses and spread the pain a bit.
the soft loan idea's not bad, but if not managed properly, u'll end up like japan... too much bad loans and companies that should've went belly up were instead kept afloat through artificially low interest rates which ends up as bad loans.
and business confidence is not so easily restored... especially if the whole world is holding its breadth.
but certainly... costs of education is too high... secondary school fees are still ok...
but once u reach tertiary! oh boy! the gov't should consider taking more concrete steps to lower tertiary education fees... -
Originally posted by kenhor:
I don't think you should be against me personally as I am posting this for our country's good. Your snide remarks make you look like a person with an agenda. Lets discuss this rationally. lets see how rational you can be....
As for economis, a profit centre is a department of a company that can generate revenue or profit for the company. A cost centre is one that can not generate revenue, but can be use to improve quality etc. SAF is a govt department under the MINDEF... its expenditure and allocated funds is part of govt FISCAL spendings and cannot be rated as a COST centre... otherwise by your standard, not only MINDEF but MOH, MOM, MOE, ENV, MFA as well as dozens of other ministry and govt stat boards would be relegated to COST centre as they all dont bring in revenue... while the only PROFIT center in singapore govt would be MOF's IRAS... thus... if you divert funds from one ministry to another ministry... its equivalent to chopping one's left hand to replace the right hand... as all of these expenditure would be part of total govt fiscal expenditure... although the allocations between different ministry might differ... year on year... in economics... generally.. the economist greatest interest is govt taxation, expenditure which constitute fiscal policy and ministry of finance's monetary policy... which affects the BOP and GDP as well as GNP of the country...
Our SAF is a cost centre. It absorbs money. The Port is a profit centre. It brings in money. So taking money from the SAF and putting it into the port (or biotech or stock market) is justifable. its as justifiable as the sun rise from the west... 
PSA is not a ministry in the singapore govt... its a GLC... as such... it is not entitiled to govt spending or a share of govt's income tax revenue... in economic language... such a transfer of fund is call subsidy (or protectionism).. which is banned under FTA and WTO GATT agreedment as well as AFTA... it also contravenes free trade as well as invites reprisal actions from other nations...very bad move... lastly... such transfer would encourage inefficiencies and lead to national bankrupt ... Argentina did that in the past... and decades now... its still not out of the woods...
As for beefing up security against terrorist, I am supportive of it. Lets increase funding to such units and we can take the money from the white elephants.
We can discuss objectively what the white elephants are.[/b] first ... you must know... that you do not have complete information, secondly... you have no idea of govt future intentions... as such... are you in the best position to judge wat is a white elephant?? -
Oh geee. forgave me, did I misunderstood your intention ?Originally posted by kenhor:When did I say that the SAF is the white elephant? When did I say to abolish the SAF. See how you have twisted my words again. Its the JSF, submarines that I am attacking
That you've only questioning the viability of RSN subs ability to
stop terror attacks or the investment on JSF project ?
Well ken, I am on your side: Everyone, including you and me love
to assume that we are living in perfect world where every weapons
systems are design to work specifically for a purpose.
Unfortunately, the real world of economy and insurance necessity
forbids that, and nor does SAF has the illusion that all those
subs prowling the South China Sea or the Singapore Straits are
solely for the purpose of counter-terrorist operation.
In case you aren't well-versed in naval-warfare, is far more effective
to for a sub to kill another. All it takes is for a hostile foreign subs
to sink a couple merchant ships in along the busy water ways to
blockade Singapore's SLOC. That is NOT what Singapore is
prepare to see.And FYI, the top speed of a submarine is like what? 15 knots? Can it outrun a speed boat packed with explosives heading towards a parked supertanker?
Another blunder here: RSN and the Marine coast guard had
already step up their patrols and escorts of vulnerable vessels
during approaches and departure of Singapore water and ports.
In fact, even the PSA container port screening is CIA-certified.
So who needs a 15-kt sub chasing a terrorist vessel when
RSN has fast surface ships ? I think you've shot the wrong
elephant !Let me tell that person that the SAF is a COST centre and taking money from a COST centre and putting money in a PROFIT centre makes good economic sense.
SAF makes good investment.
Why ? Who wanna put $ at places that its systems of law and
order are being made mockery by hostile elements due to lack
of proper security infrastructure ?
SAF is an insurance that Singapore cannot do without.
I think you can agreed with that , don't you ken ?