War Against Iraq: The Second Vietnam War?
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in my opinion, yes.
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nope...... U and UK to handler this easily!!! The terrance is the cos.... Iraq too open..... unlike Vietnam...
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During the Vietnam War, the US had only the direct support of the armed forces from South Korea, Thailand, Philippines, and Australia.
in this current Operation Iraqi Freedom, although the US has the committed combat support of UK, and also combat troops contribution from Australia; there are more then FORTY countries that give their political and material support to the US-UK led Coalition Force. These FORTY odd countries have also voted in favor to most resolutions proposed by USA and UK at the United Nations Security Council, as well as at the UN General Assembly.
During the Vietnam War, North Vietnam had the unstinting support from Soviet Russia and Communist China.
In this Operation IRAQI Freedom, no country is providing any material support to IRAQ - except for political and ideological support from the Arab Public BUT not from the Arab Governments.
Vietnam War deja vu for the USA ?
Not likely, when the US Government has learned not to "MICRO-MANAGE" the military operations of the US Armed Forces.
The US Armed Forces have fought in Bosnia, Afghanistan, and Dessert Storm (or Gulf War ONE), with weapons that are compared to STAR WARs. Compared to what was available to the US Armed Forces during the Vietnam War, the weapons available today is even far superior to what was used in Bosnia, Afghanistan and Gulf War ONE.
So a repeat of the Vietnam War this time, it will not be - although the anti-War idealist may wish to make this out to be, so as to prove themselves correct. -
but the iraqis are emulating vietnamese in using guerilla warfare
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To the Vietnamese, their honorable Objective was in unifying North and South Vietnam.Originally posted by OldMan:but the iraqis are emulating vietnamese in using guerilla warfare
While for the USA, its goal was to prevent the spread of Communism throughout South-east Asia in the generally held "Domino Theory" - which was also endorsed by most South-east Asian Governments.
In this Vietnam War, Guerilla Warfare is only one method that the Vietnamese cunningly used in their multi-facetted approach to battle USA.
In a terrain such as the tropical jungles of Indochina, and with the shrewd use of ill defined border sancturies of Laos and Cambodia, the Viet Congs (South Vietnamese Nationalist Guerillas) were supported by the regular army of North Vietnam, and both forces used those grey border areas in their movement for regrouping and resupply.
The same cannot be said of the Iraqi Theatre.
The Iraqi guerillas are nothing more then Saddam Hussein's henchmen, who are no better then gangsters and hoodlums, doing the murderous tasks at Saddam's bidding.
These are known in Iraq as "Fedayeen".
These are NOT the citizen volunteers - similar to the Viet Congs - who are prepared to risk life and limb for a political belief.
The Fedayeen have to fight to preserve Saddam Hussein, as their survival are now mutually dependent on each other; the alternative will be their Intended Trial for the years of torture, rape, and murder of civilians, politicians, and military men, women, and children.
The intended trial will be established by Iraqis who have fled the country, and who are already planning to return to set up a new Democratic and Elected Government. -
i find you idealistic. history has proven that governments installed by the americans after occupation are merely puppets to do their bidding. i see this war as a violation of sovereignty instead. did the americans do anything to other countries that practise these violent acts? it's quite clear that they have other motives in the invasion.
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The USA had defeated Germany and Japan in WW-2.
The Despotic Governments there have been replaced by democratically elected Governments by peoples of the respective countries.
Is Germany a puppet of the USA, when they are the one of the two leading voice opposing USA invasion of Iraq ?
Is Japan a puppet of the USA, when they were once a leading economic rival to the USA ?
Risky business when you view every issues of the world in black and white only; as there many multi-colored issues that require different approach to appease different vested interests.
In so doing, can USA be considered "unreasonable", when it gives way to some vested interests on matters that does not directly threaten their National Security ?
The facts of the matter is clear, and idealism has little to do with my observation of the issues at hand. It is dangerous to mix idealism with emotions, when making statements that are politically loaded. -
ur looking at traditionally strong countries, and they were the aggressors. in case u do not know, they were already democratic countries before the americans defeated them. think afghanistan and you'll see what i mean.
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in my opinion,
this war is a total waste of time......
every family have their own problem...
why bother abt their's and worse still try to involved in?
it's a babarian act!
How to maintain peace with someone like Bush and Blair around?
Also, might as well desolve UN!
Why do we need UN then? -
Germany and Japan - democratic before WW-2..?
There was some semblance of elections, but the stage were usurped by the Militarists in both Germany (Adolf Hitler) and Japan (Tojo).
Afghanistan was also a flourishing democracy before the entire country collapsed, after the Royal Family was thrown out.
The country turned into a Republic, ruled by a "Supremo Warlord" and spiral into chaos, with Russians invading the country at the request of the Afghan Spy Master who had sacked Parliament and ruled the Country.
After the Russians, the Talebans stepped in, to rule Afghanistan; and the reign of religious terror began.
Back to your original statement, that any countries "liberated" by the USA, will end up with a "Puppet Government" loyal to USA ?
Are you serious in your suggestion that present day Afghanistan is a Puppet to the USA ?
Do you equate gratitude for new found freedom, as being identical to the behaviour of a "Puppet" ?
If that is so, then by a logical extension of your reasoning, anyone who shows gratitude for any kindness shown, will be seen to be behaving as "boot lickers".
Then you will have to beware of the manner if which you display your gratitude to anyone who has helped you. -
I am really afraid to see US/UK lose the war.
I am not anti-Iraq or pro-US. But then hor... if USA lose to Iraq, I might be forced to wear tudung (just joking). With the Singapore govt support the USA, our "friendly" neighbours are now watching us (now this is serious). Dr M is waiting anxiously to step on us. -
wada world we have......esp in political issues
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What do you mean malaysia is watching us? I think Dr. M is just trying to defend itself, the history is that our friendly neighbour, Malaysia never attacked any other country with troups. I like malaysia and always spend my holidays there...Originally posted by Honeybunz:I am really afraid to see US/UK lose the war.
I am not anti-Iraq or pro-US. But then hor... if USA lose to Iraq, I might be forced to wear tudung (just joking). With the Singapore govt support the USA, our "friendly" neighbours are now watching us (now this is serious). Dr M is waiting anxiously to step on us.
With the fact that pulau batu puteh, i frankly thnk that we should just give it up to the malaysian authority... i dun care if we have a light-house there. it's just a light-house, not an empire state building and there isn't any economic value at the island..
i think or government is just trying to bring our attention away from us with out real current problems in singapore... the government is making such a hassle with the water and batu puteh island dispute with malaysia...
Think of this, malaysia is selling 'raw' water for RM0.50 per 1000 gallon.. that's 25cents for us.. and we're selling back at them for how much? RM25! or is it $25 per 1000 gallon? we should know that malaysia is making losses from this and we, as a neighbour country should also co-operate with them...
I'm kinda ashamed that we're being called kiasus by most malaysians.. fact is, we are kiasus.. we sux.. even the chinese in malaysia is not as kiasu as we are.. i know them, since i have many malaysian friends and they told me... -
Man, your comments suck big timeOriginally posted by wild_card_my:What do you mean malaysia is watching us? I think Dr. M is just trying to defend itself, the history is that our friendly neighbour, Malaysia never attacked any other country with troups. I like malaysia and always spend my holidays there...
With the fact that pulau batu puteh, i frankly thnk that we should just give it up to the malaysian authority... i dun care if we have a light-house there. it's just a light-house, not an empire state building and there isn't any economic value at the island..
i think or government is just trying to bring our attention away from us with out real current problems in singapore... the government is making such a hassle with the water and batu puteh island dispute with malaysia...
Think of this, malaysia is selling 'raw' water for RM0.50 per 1000 gallon.. that's 25cents for us.. and we're selling back at them for how much? RM25! or is it $25 per 1000 gallon? we should know that malaysia is making losses from this and we, as a neighbour country should also co-operate with them...
I'm kinda ashamed that we're being called kiasus by most malaysians.. fact is, we are kiasus.. we sux.. even the chinese in malaysia is not as kiasu as we are.. i know them, since i have many malaysian friends and they told me...
Firstly your facts are wrong. I REALLY didn't know that we sell back H2O to Malaysia at 25 per gallon
2ndly, if you're a Singaporean, we can do less with your kind around. You wanna give away pieces of your land away
What a crime
Now it's a small lighthouse, what's next Woodlands Set up military outpost on Railway land Sentosa, bcos last time Dr M's grandfather pee-ed there
How can anyone depend on you to protect our homeland. Think you'll be the first to surrender when our nation's sovereignty is at stake. Totally no pride
Lastly, kiasu or not kiasu is up to oneself. There's no absolute right or wrong here. Let's put it this way, if your malaysian friends say you're kiasu and you're ashamed to be a Singaporean, go take up citizenship in Malaysia lah. See whether you're willing or not
Pathetic... -
Posted on Sat, Mar. 29, 2003Originally posted by OldMan:in my opinion, yes.
FROM AN S.C. SCHOLAR
War with Iraq puts U.S. 'in a very dangerous situation'
James A. Miller is a cultural geographer at Clemson University. He specializes in the Middle East and has served as a foreign service officer in North Africa.
Q: -- What do you think the average person in the Middle East is saying about the war in Iraq?
A: -- What we now see very clearly in the Arab world, and the Middle East as a whole, is that the U.S. is seen as an invader with no justification to be in Iraq. It's all seen from a very different perspective from their side, and why wouldn't it be?
It's called civilization rallying. That's an extremely important fact. When we see our own troops in danger, we rally around them. As the French see it, we have an Anglo-Saxon rally going.
Q: -- Is there a significant split in opinion between the Sunni and Shiite Muslims within Iraq?
A: -- It's becoming less significant because they appear to be banding against us. Hussein has treated the Shi'a terribly and has done everything he can to favor Sunnis.
The Iraqis and Saddam Hussein have consistently tried to become a great power in the Middle East and he's won. This man looms as a hero for those on the other side.
Q: -- What do the leaders in the other Arab countries think about this war?
A: -- They don't like Iraqi regime .‘.‘. but they're very nervous. Someone like (Egyptian) President (Hosni) Murbarak, who's in a very precarious position, said "watch out, you're opening the gates of hell." And it's happening. If this war concluded quickly, the gates of hell will close. But we're digging in our heels, and I think it's very instructive to look at Vietnam. This looks like Vietnam in fast forward.
Q: -- Didn't some people predict that outcome when U.S. troops went into Afghanistan?
A: -- Afghanistan is isolated and it was in nobody's interest. Iraq is a lot different because of where it is on the map. I want people to realize that we need to get our justifications straight. If we don't, the gates of hell won't close. We're in a very dangerous situation.
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As told to Jeff Stensland
http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/5510697.htm -
The US involvement in the Vietnam War began in 1964 and ended in 1975, a total period of ELEVEN Years.
As of this date, it is only the beginning of Day 10 of Operation IRAQI Freedom - still early days yet in any military campaign of such a scale and over such distances.
This war in Iraq will last no longer then 90 days, after which it will be law and order enforcement within the next 90 days (D+180 days).
So far combat deaths due to hostile fire is less then 20, with the remaining casualties a result of accidents and friendly fire.
With the full resources and determination of the US Government and its 40 other countries supporting its efforts, it will NOT turn into another "Vietnam Experience" for the USA.
It has been "fashionable" for the Western Media to show the huge crowd or vocal and animated protesters that makes for good news from which to sell news and the ancillary trades that follows.
How does any industry make money from publishing the sad experiences of those who fled Iraq, and who has more shocking story to tell of their frightening flight to freedom ?
The drama is in the LIVE Coverage of violence and protests, the battle lines between civilian protesters against the law enforcers; and not the drama to be developed from verbal experiences told by an insignificant refugee.
It is money that drives the news agency, as what can make the headlines with drama and human dimensions, will make money. -
they sell the water to us for 5sen per 1000 gallons lah...we sell back at Rm2.25 per 1000 gallon but treatment cost us $2.50
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This topic is "War Against Iraq: The Second Vietnam War?" - how did we end up with Malaysia-Singapore Water Price ?Originally posted by |-|05|:they sell the water to us for 5sen per 1000 gallons lah...we sell back at Rm2.25 per 1000 gallon but treatment cost us $2.50
Anyway, the correct pricing is as follows:-
Johor sells RAW water to Singapore at 3 sens per 1000 gallons.
Singapore sells TREATED water back to Johor at 50 sen per 1000 gallons - at a contracted volume of of 20 million gallons per day (although Johor is buying more then 30 million gallons per day).
It cost Singapore Rm3.00 per 1000 gallons to treat the RAW water, which results in Singapore subsidising Rm2.50 per 1000 gallons when the water is sold to Johor at 50sens per 1000 gallons.
Johor state government is selling those TREATED water (from Singapore) to Johoreans at RM3.00 per 1000 gallons. -
Originally posted by Atobe:
Johor sells to citizen at 3.90 per 1000 gallons
This topic is "War Against Iraq: The Second Vietnam War?" - how did we end up with Malaysia-Singapore Water Price ?
Anyway, the correct pricing is as follows:-
Johor sells RAW water to Singapore at [b]3 sens per 1000 gallons.
Singapore sells TREATED water back to Johor at 50 sen per 1000 gallons - at a contracted volume of of 20 million gallons per day (although Johor is buying more then 30 million gallons per day).
It cost Singapore Rm3.00 per 1000 gallons to treat the RAW water, which results in Singapore subsidising Rm2.50 per 1000 gallons when the water is sold to Johor at 50sens per 1000 gallons.
Johor state government is selling those TREATED water (from Singapore) to Johoreans at RM3.00 per 1000 gallons.
[/b]
Anyway, the topic's on war. -
The Americans are crazy, to go in with so little forces. There's only about a Corp-size force there. There was something like 2 Corps plus doing Hail Mary left hook in Gulf War I.
The Fast Roll to Baghdad was as expected but shouldn't they have more light infantry to secure their LOC?
Thankfully the Iraqis didn't have mechanised stay-behind forces. Give them a mechanised div in the south and Baghdad will have to be abondanded.
Can it become like vietnam? not likely. Who's gonna feed them?
I expect a bombed-out Baghdad, bloodly street-fighting, a dead Saddam, a quick american withdrawal after the war, a weak new government and maybe civil war if the UN can't get it's shit together. After that a new dictator. I'll be reading the history books 20 years from now to see if I'm rite.
Iraq was a country but not a nation until saddam came along. Like Isreal and Pakistan-India, this problem is a remant of the artificial countries created by the British.
The middle east and central asia has been warring since there has been recorded history. What makes anyone think that THEY can solve the problems?
Atobe, I still see men covered in mud carrying M-16s around. What's so different? With one exception, all the things that are done now could have been done by the US military of 1965 only they needed more men and helicopters and planes (which they had).
The exception is the capability of a/c to evade radar at middle and high altitude. -
1) Hmm, UN will become like League of Nations like that... will it take another world war to get a better international organisation?
2) After the war, Iraq may become like Germany after World War One, or Germany after World War Two. But surely become like Afghanistan after Operation Anaconda.... -
21Alpha, while your observation of what is happening is correct, you will have to appreciate that to mobilize the 2 Corps strengths that USA had during Dessert Storm, it would have been impossible this time round as there is only one single staging area in Kuwait that is available to the USA – while there was the vast area of Saudi Arabia during Dessert Storm in 1991.
To overcome this limitation, the Central Command developed the “Rolling Start” doctrine, where the full force will be developed in size, as the first group takes off.
After the Afghanistan campaign, USA had developed a new doctrine of using Special Forces coordinating air strikes, with the support of local insurgents (if any).
In any case, the vast uninhabited areas of Iraq are ideal ground for Special Force operations - similar to Afghanistan.
From the constant feed of updated news reports, the normal Iraqi Army are not putting much resistance during the early days. It would seemed that the recent days of resistance is probably a result of Saddam HusseinÂ’s Fedayeen terrorist squad threatening the regular soldiers, and even the local citizens to face death fighting the Coalition Forces, or face immediate execution by their hands.
In a terrorized Iraqi environment, donÂ’t count on the reliability of demonstrations by the Iraqi civilian population against the US-UK efforts, as shown regularly on TV. There would have been some guns pointing at the crowd hidden from the camera view.
In any war, as in any of our own SAF exercises, we would expect soldiers to “tough out” the rough living conditions. Rain, mud, sun, heat – all that is part and parcel of a soldier’s life in any country. It cannot be seen as upcoming defeat.
During the Vietnam War, many Field Commanders had to fight this war, with “one hand tied behind their back”. Strategic targets that were outside the Vietnam Theatre were not to be attacked – especially in Cambodia, Laos and North Vietnam – right till the end of the Vietnam War.
The Politicians in Washington were MICRO-Managing the war in South Vietnam. They were determining and approving where, when and how the attack is to be made.
Read some of the books written from the Generals down to the most junior commanders, and you will understand the frustrations and disillusionment of the US soldiers towards the Vietnam War. The Anti-Vietnam War mood in US Civil Life, made matters worse for those who fought in that War.
It was those young officers, who served in the Vietnam War and learnt those lessons the hard way, and who were placed in the Leadership Positions in 1991 and led in Dessert Storm that prevented those same Vietnam War mistakes from being made.
Sorry to differ from your opinion about Iraq was not a nation until Saddam came along; but before Saddam, Iraq was a flourishing nation, and continued its reputation of being a cradle of civilization.
With Saddam, Iraq quickly deteriorated as a Nation, and became fragmented with his own kindreds from Takri competing with the Shiites in the South, and the Kurds in the north, and the other minorities polarized.
It was his way of ruling with a strong grip on the lives of Iraq, by his way of “divide and rule”. Any semblence of opposition, even within his inner circle, is immediately dispatched with.
The same was said about Afghanistan, and of many other Middle-eastern countries, yet we see some semblance of hope with the Younger Generations being educated and living in the West, and being exposed to the Liberal Freedom of the INDIVIDUAL – except that is some countries, the long established system remains intact and in the hands of the politically savvy.
Many Iraqis, who have fled Iraq, are waiting and looking forward to this change; and bear out hope for those whom they have left behind in Iraq.
However, this change in Iraq also holds many contradictory challenges to the established systems of Governments in the Middle East, as many of these Governments are no different from the ancient Feudal Systems found centuries ago.
The ball has been kicked now, and the intention is to score goals – UNLESS, world opinions forced the United Nations to act strongly to get USA and UK (and all its supporting coalition allies) to terminate all war activities in Iraq.
Is there sufficient POLITICAL force to ensure that this war activities be terminated? -
Oh well... all these and all... but I really do feel that the UN is slowly becoming the League of Nations all over again. Nobody can ever come to a conclusion and those diplomats are just trying to take on the driver's seat but do not have the balls to do so.
In terms of security issues, the UN is lacking, but it is truly doing well in coordinating relief efforts and trying to reduce poverty and stuff. UN is handing out the bread, but is hesitant to use the rifle.
Vietnam War again? No way. The Americans had the wrong doctrine the whole time and it lasted for 11 years. A long war is a war already lost. The current war has only proceeded for less than two weeks and people are talking about Vietnam War again. They really don't know what they're talking about.