Dewan Rakyat unanimously condemns attack on Iraq by US
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To reply you,
Thanks for the clarifications at least it is the US Citizens - affected by the 9-11 incident, and not the USA as a Nation – suing the Saudi’s. This is an insignificant event, and is part of life in the USA, where one will litigate for the slightest of reasons.
And one that is insignificant to you may be significant to others. Who is to say that USA is not dangling the carrot and brandishing the stick in the 9-11 affair to silence the Saudis.
Good for Malaysia in being involve in all the Third World Organizations, so that they can assert their level of superiority and lord over those who are slightly or far behind them.
Now now, no need to be so nasty .. since when did they do that?
Measure oneself with the Best of the Best, and help those who cannot measure up to oneself or measure oneself with the worst, and assume leadership of the backward, and holler against the Best. When you cannot compete with the Best, and unable to gain acceptance by the “Best” - for the skewered “pariah” views of the World, you will then wallow with those who empathize with your position.
No need for sour grapes here. Just because we don't do the things they do, we don't have to put them down or call them names.
Is this not the common views that Politicians are idiots – to put it mildly? Others would judge them in a worst light, by calling them snakes. You are too generous to put Thabo Mbeki alongside great luminaries such as LKY, Deng, and Clinton(?).
And what did Thabo do wrong? After all, he is inheriting a nation that has great social, racial and economic divide. He is as great (or even greater) than GCT.
In politics, viciousness knows no bounds; one’s private preferences in life should be one’s private business – that even applies to Clinton. The Malaysian Chinese cheering of Anwar’s downfall was largely due to his policies and views taken as a Finance Minister, who listened too much to IMF and Foreign Financial Advisors, and implemented policies to combat the Financial Crisis in 1997, without being too circumspect to the effects that those policies will cause to the Malaysian Economy.
Why would the Chinese only cheer this? Won't the Malays also be affected? The chinese cheered because they know Dr M is tolerant than Anwar.
With Anwar's ambition to be the next Malaysian PM, it will be suicidal for his ambitious plans if he had continued with his "anti-Chinese" attitude which he espoused during his early day in politics as a youth.
Of course he will have changed his stripes, until he becomes the PM, then, the truth will be known.
The emphasis was on “PERSONAL” benefits.
YES .. I agree with you .. Its always about KICKBACKS. But then again, politics all around the world is like that. Guess that we should buy Haliburton Shares now. After Iraq is taken over, their stock will soar.
If by “peons”, you mean those high sounding “titled” personalities, it would be far more accurate a description in the Malaysian “Patronage” system.
Nah ... the datuks and wellheeled still need food, homes, servants, mistresses and consumer items. The money will trickle all the way down to the bottom layer.
At least, Li Kah Shing started off by being entrepreneurial, borrowing his start-up capital, and through his own ingenuity, foresight, and industry, he is where he is today.
And 90% of the Malaysian Chinese business are like that as well. So what's your point?
Did he have a Prime Minister for a father, to help him get a head start in having his own multi-million dollar PRIVATE corporations formed for him ?
Are you talking about Malaysia? I thought you were talking about Singtel.
It is unfortunate that on both sides, the funds from both countries have been wasted in some over ambitious overseas investments – but for each country, the political objective behind such investments are quite different. Singapore’s funds utilized in overseas investment is largely with the Country’s national reserves, managed by the G.I.C or companies formed to manage such investments.
Which is worse as that meas that MY TAX DOLLARS are being used. Which there is no accountability, and NO share of the dividends if there is any profit.
In MalaysiaÂ’s case, much of the funds are from Oil Revenue, and the large amount of cash that is generated internally, by inflated contracts awarded to companies operated by cronies, that represent the interests of some in the leadership.
But the point is that the money will benefit the third world countries in which it is badly needed FDI as well as Malaysians who manufacture goods for export.
Would this not tell you that those dubious Malaysian investments in the list of Third World Countries – that stretch from the poorest in Africa to North Korea – should have raised eyebrows more, and that those investments are not actually altruistic in nature?
No .. my statement tells me that the Malaysian government is doing what it thinks is best to benefit its citizens, by creating opportunities in new markets.
Countries without natural resources will have to depend on human resourcefulness, and in the course of it, large reserves are formed.
Of course, I agree with you here.
Countries such as Australia, Brunei, and the other oil-rich Arab states, with abundant natural resources, have relatively healthy reserves. While the other well endowed countries such as Nigeria, Ghana, Malaysia, Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia, some South American states, and Russia have abundant natural resources and DO NOT have any large reserves largely due to mismanagement, corruption, and failed economic, social and political policies.
Here is some data I compiled from the Economist magazine
Czech Republic 24.4
Hungary 13.0
Poland 30.7
Isreal 23.4
Mexico 51.5
Thailand 38.9
Philippines 13.1
Indonesia 31.1
Brazil 38.6
Malaysia 34.5
Chile 16.5
It is interesting to note that as a developing country, Malaysia ranks quite nicely when it comes to Foreign Reserves. Indeed, EU candidate countries (Czech, Poland, HUngary) seem to have less reserves than Malaysia. Not to mention the best performing South American (Chile) country has half the FR as Malaysia. This goes to prove that FR does not equate to economic success.
Of course, all the NICs (S Korea, Singapore, Taiwan and HK) beat Malaysia, but among the developing countries, Malaysia is among the leaders. (and they have 17 more years to go before 2020)
Indeed, one will question why with FR of 83.6 billion, Singapore's unemployment rate is nearly 1% higher than Malaysia's? -
To kenhor,
It is very interesting to note the trouble you have taken to research for your posts, and it certainly provide some new angles to be considered. My response and clarifications are as follows:
"And one that is insignificant to you may be significant to others. Who is to say that USA is not dangling the carrot and brandishing the stick in the 9-11 affair to silence the Saudis.”
It is doubtful if the USA will ever carry the stick over the Saudis, there is too much antagonism towards the USA to risk having a major Arab ally being alienated. The US Citizens will be at liberty to pursue private litigation efforts against the Saudis or the Bin Laden Family, but it will be doubtful if the US Government will pursue a line of toughness with the Saudis.
“Now now, no need to be so nasty .. since when did they do that?”
They try to upstage even the ASEAN Secretariat, by attempting to form an independent Secretariat that reflects the agreed ASEAN+3 concept(?). It was only a result of the strong objections from Indonesia, Philippines and Thailand that this Malaysian idea was dropped.
PM MahatirÂ’s attempts to take the lead role is well known for his efforts to lead the Muslim World to withstand competition and degrading attitude from the First World.
His effort (and that of his FM Syed Hamid Albar) to out-do the Arabs is hardly disguised by forming a separate conference of Islamic Countries - to condemn USA in their efforts to attack Saddam or Iraq – within the NAM meeting in Kuala Lumpur in late 2002.
The protests from the Arabs put a stop to this matter, as the O.I.C Meeting was to be held ten days later in Doha, after NAM in Kuala Lumpur.
“No need for sour grapes here. Just because we don't do the things they do, we don't have to put them down or call them names.”
Unfortunately, it is “no skin off my nose” if Malaysia’s PM Mahatir or the FM Syed Hamid Albar does what they intend to do to elevate the position of Malaysia.
In any case, why bother with sour grapes if Malaysia decides NOT to measure their system against the Best of the Best; but is quite satisfied with the levels which they envision for themselves.
“And what did Thabo do wrong? After all, he is inheriting a nation that has great social, racial and economic divide. He is as great (or even greater) than GCT.”
After inheriting the legacy from Nelson Mandela, Thabo had shown his idiocy by declaring that no Government Funds will be given to any hospitals who dare contradict his finding that Aids or HIV is not caused by Virus.
He certainly inherited a Nation, but while Nelson Mandela continued to move his South African “Bumis” to excel themselves, Thabo was more interested to create his own legacy after his term.
With violent crimes rising to the point of lawlessness, affecting almost every level of society, the place is no longer safe even in the up market neighborhood. Car jacking, rape, murder, daylight shooting, assaults, and what other violent crimes you can think of, all these are happening in South Africa under Thabo.
In your opinion, could he be doing better than GCT ?
“Why would the Chinese only cheer this? Won't the Malays also be affected? The chinese cheered because they know Dr M is tolerant than Anwar.”
While the Malays or Bumiputras had access to soft loans, based on Islamic Banking system, the other ethnic groups have only access to commercial loans based on commercial terms and conditions.
It was largely the Malays or Bumi that fought for Anwar, who as Finance Minister had “created and implemented” the policies that benefited the Bumis. They did not applaud nor approve of the methods used; and were largely sceptical of their PM's effort to discredit his Deputry.
Certainly, It will be the Chinese and the other ethnic groups in Malaysia - that have no safety net from the Government during the cash crunch of 1997 - who will be applauding.
“Of course he will have changed his stripes, until he becomes the PM, then, the truth will be known.”
Of course anything can happen for the future, but given the fine balance of racial harmony that exist in Malaysia, would a savvy politicians dare put his career at risks ?
“YES .. I agree with you .. Its always about KICKBACKS. But then again, politics all around the world is like that. Guess that we should buy Haliburton Shares now. After Iraq is taken over, their stock will soar.”
DonÂ’t count on the stock market recovery after Iraq is taken over.
If the war can be successfully concluded in 90 days (from H-Hour of Day 1), it will require at least another 90 days of establishing a new Law and Order Structure, Civil Service, and continued mopping up operations for armed “dissidents” that refuse to accept defeat.
After 180 days, of continued stock decline, it will be surprising if the bottom of the stock exchange does not open up and drop its load.
“And 90% of the Malaysian Chinese business are like that as well. So what's your point?”
The original view from my post was:
“How else do poor "kampung boys", with no historical connections to wealth and fame, can succeed in one generation to have their sons owning and operating corporations that are involved in mega-million dollar enterprises ?”
Lee Kah Shing built his own empire through ingenuity, foresight, and keen business sense.
How could the Malaysian Politicians - who are mainly kampung boys - manage to find their million dollar funds to form mega-corporations for their children to operate, and all in one generation, with the “dads” entering politics mostly coming from poor family background.
“Are you talking about Malaysia? I thought you were talking about Singtel.”
The well endowed First Family can hardly be seen as Kampung Boys.
In any case, SingTel is NOT a Private Company owned by Private Capital.
The effort in privatization by the SGP Government is only skin deep; as it try to disguise the GLCÂ’s into private companies by selling out to "approved" private public personalities that seems to be acting as "proxies in trust for the Government"(?).
“Which is worse as that meas that MY TAX DOLLARS are being used. Which there is no accountability, and NO share of the dividends if there is any profit.”
Have you forgotten the Singapore Shares ? At least Singaporeans get back something from the Government, despite the losses. What has the Malaysian politicians done with their National Reserves ?
“But the point is that the money will benefit the third world countries in which it is badly needed FDI as well as Malaysians who manufacture goods for export.”
They could not even pay for their military hardware purchase in Cash, and have to barter with their Palm Oil, nor do they allocate any funds to handle their problems with the Drug Addicts, and other social welfare, educational, and infrastructural problems; and yet they make a big thing about investing overseas - which serves as "conduits for leakages".
One would expect that at least they put their house in order, before attempting to play the Guardian Angel to help the Third World Countries.
Building homes in North Korea – would that be a North Korean State Funded Project, or will it be another Malaysian Politician's daylight robbery on their National Reserves ?
Altruism or foolishness ?
“No .. my statement tells me that the Malaysian government is doing what it thinks is best to benefit its citizens, by creating opportunities in new markets.”
It should read more accurately if you had written that “the Malaysian Government is doing what it thinks is best to benefit its “cronies”, as the Citizens are hardly aware that such investments exist.
Whatever new opportunities from new emerging markets will benefit the crony operated corporations, and seldom the Malaysian citizens.
"It is interesting to note that as a developing country, Malaysia ranks quite nicely when it comes to Foreign Reserves. Indeed, EU candidate countries (Czech, Poland, HUngary) seem to have less reserves than Malaysia. Not to mention the best performing South American (Chile) country has half the FR as Malaysia. This goes to prove that FR does not equate to economic success.”
Of course, all the NICs (S Korea, Singapore, Taiwan and HK) beat Malaysia, but among the developing countries, Malaysia is among the leaders. (and they have 17 more years to go before 2020) “
Do not forget that Czech, Poland, Hungary had only until recently emerged from a Stalinist economy, with the collapse of the Soviet Union through Perestoika and Glasnost.
MalaysiaÂ’s exposure to the worldÂ’s free and open economy stretches back since it independence from Colonial Rule - a period of more then Forty Years.
Surely Malaysia could have done better if measured against those ex-Soviet style economy - instead of only a marginal difference.
"Indeed, one will question why with FR of 83.6 billion, Singapore's unemployment rate is nearly 1% higher than Malaysia's?”
Singapore’s economy has reached a level of maturity – much like that seen in Japan, and other First World economy.
With Singapore’s dependence on ever higher technology to be utilized, and which require lesser manpower, this can only result in a strong shake-up, restructuring exercises – leading to a higher rate of unemployment in times of crisis.
No economy can ever continue its relentless growth, and maintain continued full employment.
A dead end will be met sooner or later, unless new niche areas and leading technologies are continuously discovered and owned by Singapore Companies. -
oh.. please.. Islam is s abloody violent religion.Originally posted by kyas:correction... we do not condemn the US for disarming Iraq... we condemn the war against iraq... what happen is not disarming... disarming is different from bombing civillians...
do we have to be arabs to say that we are against the attack...? as i told you it is not about religion or race (if i may add)... it is about humanity...
islam does not allow all that... we cannot just interfere any country whenever we want... we believe that any action against any country must with the consent of the UN... in line with the international rules...
And please please name a war or battles where civilians is not the casualties.. please just name one.. anyone in history where a war is being fought and civilain spared ??
Look at the bloody religion..
on one hand you got the muslim crying out against the west.. yet, they embrace their pop culture, technology, trade etc etc
Boycott everything lah.. stop talking cock and sing song.
No muslim should say anyhting about caring for humanity.. becos currently, the muslim are fighting among thermselves ( kurd and turks ), against the west, the whole world ( terrorist ), against the hindus ( kashmir ), against the communist..
So please stop talking cock that Muslim has any care or concern for humanity and their suffering..
All muslim should do some serious soul searching..
Are they being used by some religious idiots who claim to be some authority from god when actually most are just plain crooks..
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You can't blame the religion, the religion by itself is nothing wrong. What's wrong is the people in it, and how they interpret it.
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I keep wondering how the insane get so much power? Also, how the people can take leave of their senses and logic to believe them?
I'd wager there's this underlying hatred which is cultivated in some kind of bigotry promoted by the religion itself, or the ethnic groups? This hatred and distrust can be easily harnessed for violence.
Nothing unites a people easier than a common enemy or object of hatred.
Malaysian politicos knows that... that is why Singapore will always be hammered for no other reason than to get votes. However, this can be dangerous because whipping up negative passions would require some kind of release... I just pray that it will not erupt in violence.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:You can't blame the religion, the religion by itself is nothing wrong. What's wrong is the people in it, and how they interpret it. -
Originally posted by kenhor:
Indeed, one will question why with FR of 83.6 billion, Singapore's unemployment rate is nearly 1% higher than Malaysia's?
It is incorrect to relate employment figure with FR, as the former
is a measurement of short-term industrial activity while the later
provides a more strategic indicator of the country's overall
long-term potential.
In fact, a more direct measurement of FR is the country's
currency exchnge rate with USD which truely test the resilience of
its economy. This is reflected in how both My and Sg govs handle
the '97 financial crisis. The My gov then was so desperate that
it imposed currency control until this very day. This may have
help to protect itself from further attacks on the Ringgit, but it has
nevethless suffered long term damage in its international
reputation as an open economy. It is better to take some
bitter medicine now when current global situations remains
fluid than to wait for the next upswing in cycle of economy.
This is precisely what Singapore is attempting to do now in which
structural unemployment and businesses are going through
dramatic revision.my statement tells me that the Malaysian government is doing what it thinks is best to benefit its citizens, by creating opportunities in new markets.
If the My gov truely "thinks" of what is best for its citizens then it
would not hv stubbornly implement policies which had resulted
in lagging behind Singapore in almost all aspects of economic and
social development since independence.
Even with the coming end of Mahathir era, and its attempt to
jumpstart its drive towards *2020 vision* by turning to
industrialisation, the My gov still dogmatically carry on its
affirmative-pro-bumi policies which has already proven to handicup
this country potential. This will only condemn Malaysia to always
follow the footsteps behind its less-well endowned and yet
resourceful Southern neighbour, as far as economic and strategic
planning are concerned. -
please do not look at people who claimed that they are muslims as the true picture of islam...Originally posted by redtide:oh.. please.. Islam is s abloody violent religion.
And please please name a war or battles where civilians is not the casualties.. please just name one.. anyone in history where a war is being fought and civilain spared ??
Look at the bloody religion..
on one hand you got the muslim crying out against the west.. yet, they embrace their pop culture, technology, trade etc etc
Boycott everything lah.. stop talking cock and sing song.
No muslim should say anyhting about caring for humanity.. becos currently, the muslim are fighting among thermselves ( kurd and turks ), against the west, the whole world ( terrorist ), against the hindus ( kashmir ), against the communist..
So please stop talking cock that Muslim has any care or concern for humanity and their suffering..
All muslim should do some serious soul searching..
Are they being used by some religious idiots who claim to be some authority from god when actually most are just plain crooks..
it is like saying that christians in the west especially are people who kills each other, living together without marriage, dancing naked in front of people, exposing their bodies in nude magazines, attending sex parties, bringing guns to school, changing partners etc... Is that the true teachings in bible? I don't think so.
it's not the religion... its the people...
congratulation mr moderator for allowing such insulting comment by redtide to be viewed by everybody... -
To Gun,
It is incorrect to relate employment figure with FR, as the former
is a measurement of short-term industrial activity while the later
provides a more strategic indicator of the country's overall
long-term potential.
During the 1997 crisis, Malaysia declared 1 year tax free status. They are willing to suffer a short term shortfall of revenue rather than have high unemployment. By the same breath, our FR is MEANT for a rainy day. That day has come (by my opinion)
In fact, a more direct measurement of FR is the country's
currency exchnge rate with USD which truely test the resilience of
its economy.
That is not true. Most developing countries push their currency weak to be exporting goods. In fact, if the RM is floated today, it will definately appreciate. Do you think that RM3.80 to US$1.00 is not undervalued?
The My gov then was so desperate that it imposed currency control until this very day. This may have help to protect itself from further attacks on the Ringgit, but it has nevethless suffered long term damage in its international reputation as an open economy.
I don't know about you, but I see that their credit rating has since climb back higher than countries like Thailand who went for the IMF cure. So how can its INTERNATIONAL reputation be damaged long term?
It is better to take some bitter medicine now when current global situations remains fluid than to wait for the next upswing in cycle of economy. This is precisely what Singapore is attempting to do now in which structural unemployment and businesses are going through dramatic revision.
That is always the standard reply. Tough Love they call it. Well, only time will tell how it will work out. After all, the bitter medicine will probably do irrepairable damage to our workforce's morale and trust in the government.
If the My gov truely "thinks" of what is best for its citizens then it
would not hv stubbornly implement policies which had resulted
in lagging behind Singapore in almost all aspects of economic and
social development since independence.
Its much, much easier to manage a small tiny city 630 sq km than a country 1000 times bigger, 5 times more people. By your same same measure, Malaysia has done better than India, who has a civilization 1000 years older than malaysia, no war, 1 billion population and 100 times bigger than Malaysia. So if you want to compare, compare it apples to apples.
Even with the coming end of Mahathir era, and its attempt to
jumpstart its drive towards *2020 vision* by turning to
industrialisation, the My gov still dogmatically carry on its
affirmative-pro-bumi policies which has already proven to handicup
this country potential.
Indonesia remains as the best reason to have affirmative action programs. The chinese there may be rich, but they will forever have to worry about their riches causing problems
this will only condemn Malaysia to always follow the footsteps behind its less-well endowned and yet resourceful Southern neighbour, as far as economic and strategic planning are concerned.
We have lots to show Malaysia, however, it is not good to rest on our laurels or be complacent and arrogant. Have we not forgotten the saga of how PSA lost 2 shipping lines to PTP due to our arrogance? -
My head tells me it's the people.
My heart wonders what is going on with the religious telling people to go and "martyr themselves" in senseless suicide bombings, telling people to hate the Jews, and more...
My head tells me it is not the true Islam, it is a peaceful religion.
My heart asks me where the people who represent the truth of the religion are? Why are they so silent when the evil and violent people who have hijacked their religion, blaspheming and worse are ranting in mosques. And those who question have a fatwa on their heads.
Religion is something from the heart... so, am I to listen to my head when my heart asks questions like these?
As for Christianity, they have problems of their own.. just like every organised and disorganised religion. To compare one against another is like saying that the sins of the other religion exonerate your religion of its own sins.Originally posted by kyas:please do not look at people who claimed that they are muslims as the true picture of islam...
it is like saying that christians in the west especially are people who kills each other, living together without marriage, dancing naked in front of people, exposing their bodies in nude magazines, attending sex parties, bringing guns to school, changing partners etc... Is that the true teachings in bible? I don't think so.
it's not the religion... its the people...
congratulation mr moderator for allowing such insulting comment by redtide to be viewed by everybody... -
Are you kidding.. are you saying that the muslim are clean and free from these junks ?Originally posted by kyas:please do not look at people who claimed that they are muslims as the true picture of islam...
it is like saying that christians in the west especially are people who kills each other, living together without marriage, dancing naked in front of people, exposing their bodies in nude magazines, attending sex parties, bringing guns to school, changing partners etc... Is that the true teachings in bible? I don't think so.
it's not the religion... its the people...
congratulation mr moderator for allowing such insulting comment by redtide to be viewed by everybody...
Gimme a break.. you don't want to hear what is happening behind the close door..
Sorie.. it is the religion.. don't believe just wait and see..
It will come out soon.. all those junks.. -
Originally posted by kenhor:
During the 1997 crisis, Malaysia declared 1 year tax free status. They are willing to suffer a short term shortfall of revenue rather than have high unemployment. By the same breath, our FR is MEANT for a rainy day. That day has come (by my opinion)
Your opinion, is sadly missed guided. The so-called 1-yr tax free is
hardly a bitter medicine compared to what the Thais and S Koreans
had undertaken after the financial crisis as stipulated by the IMF.
On the contrary, to your interpretation that low-unemployment
means sound economic planning doesn't and frequently will not
guarantee long term benefit. In fact, what you've yet to inevitable
effect of Malaysia's high dependency on low-cost manufactoring
sector on which it now has to competet with countries from China
and Indo-China. Has Malaysia gov prepared for that incoming
storm ahead ? Go back to its old federalistic economy plan of the
60s & 70s which is to dependent own market alone ?That is not true. Most developing countries push their currency weak to be exporting goods. In fact, if the RM is floated today, it will definately appreciate. Do you think that RM3.80 to US$1.00 is not undervalued?
That is the very fundamental flaw which has caused many
developing countries economy plan to go off track.
Having cheap currency, hence cheap and competetive product
will only produce a platonic development path .
Take the case of the Indonesian rupiah or the Japanese yen.
Eventhough both are at vastly different development stage and
economy structure, their relative USD exchange rate did not
automatically equates better export competitiveness or increase
in FDI. In fact, it is the wholistic approach in sound planning and
competent execution that will enhance and ensure stable
and consistent growth. What the My gov has done so far is a
mix bag of short term stitch up correction job and borrowed
economic plan which Singapore had used in the 70s to mid 90s
and is now in the process of restructuring such approach in the
new paradiagm.I don't know about you, but I see that their credit rating has since climb back higher than countries like Thailand who went for the IMF cure. So how can its INTERNATIONAL reputation be damaged long term?
Of cause you don't know about me, let alone your
limited ability to appreciate what I have pointed out early.
Do yourself a little favour and read up recent reports concerning
My gov attempt to use taxpayer$' money into its faultering state-
controlled fund ValueCap Sdn for use in supporting the market.
The Sydney Morning Herald 10Feb'03
Business Times 2Apr'03That is always the standard reply. Tough Love they call it. Well, only time will tell how it will work out. After all, the bitter medicine will probably do irrepairable damage to our workforce's morale and trust in the government.
Well, if this is a "standard reply" which some of the hardest hit
countries like Thailand or S Korea had put their money where their
mouth is, then why can't Malaysia boleh ? You don't have to
wait long to see the if those bitter medicine are effective or not:
It already has worked in above cases. Thailand is becoming the
Detriot of SEA, threatening Malaysia's protectionistic car market,
and S Korea is now back in business which Dr. Mahathir has openly
wants to imitate, having dropped Japan. What a fool.
I am not interested in challenging the rest of your reply which has
apparently reflects on your lack of understanding in the basic
concepts of international commerce and trade.
But I must point out your failure to adequately followup with my
rebutals while using ill-informed perspectives while diverting to
irrelevant subjects like "easier to manage a small tiny city 630 sq
km than a country 1000 times bigger". This has cast doubts in
your ability debate in any coherent nor effectively convincing
manner.
Here are my pointers to your last few feeble arguments:
1) Your simplistic measure of success by pointing out that
"Malaysia has done better than India, who has a civilization 1000
years older than malaysia"...etc etc will definately not go well with
folks who knows the true potential of this sub-continent.
This fruit has a taste that you've fail to appreciate.
2) Majority of Indonesia Chinese are NOT rich. Most hardly survive
above the poverty line. Their livelihood are threatened not by
their *riches*, but of their ancestral blood lineage. You certainly
can't pick a worst example to counter my argument in defending
Malaysia's deabilitating pro-bumi policy. -
i am not saying that muslims are clean from all those things. My purpose was to show you that it is not the religion that ask you to do all those things. It is the people who do not follow the religion's rule.Originally posted by redtide:Are you kidding.. are you saying that the muslim are clean and free from these junks ?
Gimme a break.. you don't want to hear what is happening behind the close door..
Sorie.. it is the religion.. don't believe just wait and see..
It will come out soon.. all those junks..
It is not the religion. If you think it is... prove it... -
you mean what is happening now in US (911), Palestine, Indonesia ( JI), Philippines ( moro ), Pakistan ( kashmir conflict ), Africa , etc etc is not prove enough ??Originally posted by kyas:i am not saying that muslims are clean from all those things. My purpose was to show you that it is not the religion that ask you to do all those things. It is the people who do not follow the religion's rule.
It is not the religion. If you think it is... prove it...
Why is it that only Islam have roblem in every part of the world where most religion can live quite harmoniously?
Is there something wrong with Allah that maybe he is paranoid or xenophobic?? -
There is a difference between the "Religion" and the "Believers".Originally posted by redtide:you mean what is happening now in US (911), Palestine, Indonesia ( JI), Philippines ( moro ), Pakistan ( kashmir conflict ), Africa , etc etc is not prove enough ??
Why is it that only Islam have roblem in every part of the world where most religion can live quite harmoniously?
Is there something wrong with Allah that maybe he is paranoid or xenophobic??
Kyas is trying to separate these two matters, and I believe that it is true that Islam does not teach terrorism.
It is unfortunate that most of the major "terrorist" events of recent times, have been committed by the "Believers" from this "Religion".
Could it be that the "Believers" of this "Religion", who commit these terrorist activities, are impregnated with "wrong teachings" by radicals who have hijacked the religion from the moderates and the "LESS Active "Believers" of the "Religion" ? (as was suggested in the previous post by "Bear" )
The radical mullahs have distorted and misinterpreted the verses of Koran, and twist logic to fire up the dissatisfied Believers to commit crimes of terror, in the misguided belief that it is sanctioned by Islam.
In the USA, the Christian Faith has also seen its own share of terrorists in the form of the Ku Klax Klan, who took on a racial tone under the guise of a burning Cross.
The terrorist activities of the KKK did not discourage the moderate and the passive practitioners of the Christian Faith from continuing in the practise and belief in Christianity.
The same will be said of Islam, in which the moderate and the passive practitioners of Islam will continue to quietly assert themselves, as is happening now in UK where the Muslim community is kicking out the radicals from the management of the Mosque.
With radical Governments such as that of Saddam Hussein of Iraq, Gadaffi of Libya, Assad of Syria, and the Ayatollahs of Iran being identified and taken out one at a time, the funding for spread of radical Islam may see the end of its days.
Lets separate the issues between the "errant Believers" and the "Religion".
When some passengers in a bus become unruly, should one blame the Driver and the remaining passive passengers and the "Bus" too? -
prove of what? you are just pointing your finger at the people who believe that they are muslims... not islam... you have to learn to differentiate that...Originally posted by redtide:you mean what is happening now in US (911), Palestine, Indonesia ( JI), Philippines ( moro ), Pakistan ( kashmir conflict ), Africa , etc etc is not prove enough ??
Why is it that only Islam have roblem in every part of the world where most religion can live quite harmoniously?
Is there something wrong with Allah that maybe he is paranoid or xenophobic??
what about the bosnians? thousands of muslims were killed... what about nagasaki and hiroshima? millions... what about hitler? what about stalin? what about the palestinian? what about the russian chechen? what about the hindu extremist in India?
i just wanna tell you that we have discussed this issue in the previous topics...
thanks atobe... -
To Gun,
Since you said the following,
I am not interested in challenging the rest of your reply which has
apparently reflects on your lack of understanding in the basic
concepts of international commerce and trade.
And started in insulting a fellow forum member who do not agree with your opionion, and also belittiling my "feeble arguments", I wish you good bye and all the best in your endevours. -
To Atobe,
I will be getting back to you soon. -
kyas, there was this one question posed in another forum elsewhere... it was never answered. I cannot remember the exact words but the one who asked the question asked why is it the "moderates" of Islam (frankly, I don't know what a "moderate Muslim" is) do not speak out and put the mullahs in place. The mullahs being the ones who incite violence, praise murderous suicide in Palestine, support terrorists like Hamas and mostly, those who take Islam, and turn it into a tool for political goals.
I know it is not Islam which has failed. It is the people who abuse the power and trust the faithful entrusted on them who have failed.
But if those who know it is wrong keep silent, it is a sad indictment of the religion itself... the people represent the religion... and act for the religion.
Islam is a peaceful religion based on the submission of self to Allah (I learnt that in another board). What has happened to the leaders of Islam who call for Jihad over everything under the sun?Originally posted by kyas:prove of what? you are just pointing your finger at the people who believe that they are muslims... not islam... you have to learn to differentiate that...
what about the bosnians? thousands of muslims were killed... what about nagasaki and hiroshima? millions... what about hitler? what about stalin? what about the palestinian? what about the russian chechen? what about the hindu extremist in India?
i just wanna tell you that we have discussed this issue in the previous topics...
thanks atobe... -
http://freethought.freeservers.com/
I implored all to go to this web and read.
I just wanna ask a question, Wat kind deeds have God done ? He creates the world to his amsuement, and after tat acts like a punisher and mass murderer. Pages and pages of God killing people because they just 'disobey' him. If u say tat religion tell people to do good things, tis is added only by people later to suit community living. Do not discuss Jesus, the deeds of God is more important.
For more info, please please go to this website and read its content. If u feel tat something is worng with its argument, please tell it to me so tat I may change my belief
http://freethought.freeservers.com/ -
Originally posted by kenhor:
I am sorry, but it bothers me how ON EARTH had ANY of my earlier replies can be construed as an insult on you
And started in insulting a fellow forum member who do not agree with your opionion, and also belittiling my "feeble arguments", I wish you good bye and all the best in your endevours.
You find "feeble" as degratory to your little hurt pride ?
OMG! I haven't even started yet and you are already crying mama so soon ?!
-
I am not too certain how to handle this issue, but will give it a shot and will welcome any corrections for the views made.Originally posted by the Bear:kyas, there was this one question posed in another forum elsewhere... it was never answered. I cannot remember the exact words but the one who asked the question asked why is it the "moderates" of Islam (frankly, I don't know what a "moderate Muslim" is) do not speak out and put the mullahs in place. The mullahs being the ones who incite violence, praise murderous suicide in Palestine, support terrorists like Hamas and mostly, those who take Islam, and turn it into a tool for political goals.
I know it is not Islam which has failed. It is the people who abuse the power and trust the faithful entrusted on them who have failed.
But if those who know it is wrong keep silent, it is a sad indictment of the religion itself... the people represent the religion... and act for the religion.
Islam is a peaceful religion based on the submission of self to Allah (I learnt that in another board). What has happened to the leaders of Islam who call for Jihad over everything under the sun?
In any circumstances, we will find people who are agitated activist -and whom I would label as "Pro-Active"; and to the other extreme, we will find people who are "Passive" - preferring to be uninvolved or inactive in the outward display of their beliefs.
In the middle, we will find the "Moderates" who will be moved from being uninvolved and passive, to become "Reactive" but NOT Pro-Active, and CAN be tolerant up to a point.
More often then not, it is the Pro-Active who will be the ones to be easily swayed and captured into radicalism by unscrupulous Agitators with distorted views and secret agenda.
The "Pro-Active" who move into radicalism will be more aggressive in the practise of their beliefs than the "Moderates", and certainly will be more intimidating towards the "Passive".
Under normal circumstances, and more so in a religious environment where tolerance and forgiveness is a principle, can the "Moderates" be strong enough to compete in the politics of leadership in one's religious beliefs ?
To project this onto a bigger stage, can the average Iraqi Citizen , who has strong nationalist loves for Iraq, be strong enough to fight against the gangsterism of Saddam and his private gangs and nail him down in his early days when he was still a "nobody" ?
Similarly, can the average "Moderate" or "Passive" Muslim, who attend the Mosque in London, prevent the "Pro-Active" Radicals from hijacking the religion and introduce radicalism into the Mosque?
Currently, in Iran, we are seeing a struggle between the "Progressive" Muslims against the "Hard Line" Conservative (not radicals) Mullahs, for the control of the Government and the Religion itself.
I will not pass judgement against the Religion itself, for the weakness in the system practised, but will certainly put the blame to the weakness of the "Believers" who are unable to challenge the power of the "Miscreants" of the Religion. -
People is never the problem .. it's the belief system..in this case, what is taught in Islam and what the religion propagate.Originally posted by kyas:prove of what? you are just pointing your finger at the people who believe that they are muslims... not islam... you have to learn to differentiate that...
what about the bosnians? thousands of muslims were killed... what about nagasaki and hiroshima? millions... what about hitler? what about stalin? what about the palestinian? what about the russian chechen? what about the hindu extremist in India?
i just wanna tell you that we have discussed this issue in the previous topics...
thanks atobe...
Islam in this case makes people stupid ( not surprise that most muslim filled the bottom rung of society ) .. so it's good to get out of this strange religion for your own good and for your children sake. Even Mahatir had to give the malays a good roasting in every UMNO meetings. It is well known and famous.
As I have seen already.. you are not able to explain why there is just about a Islamic in every part of the world.. Islam a peaceful religion ? Sound like Saddam saying " Allah will give us the victory "..
Mike tyson was violent.. then he got converted to Islam and became a blood thirty animal.. wanting to bite off the opponent's ears. Can't say it's the mullah. there's just something not right about this religion. A spirit that just posseses you to make you stupid and violent.
Maybe someone can tell me one .. just one good that Islam has contributed to society..
YOu can say all you want about Christianity or USA.. there may be some hypocrasy or inconsistency.. no doubt... but that still doesn't change the fact that USA is still the no 1 giver of humanitarian aids worldwide. Red Cross is founded by a Christian and many many others...
Did any muslim of past and present do anything that is of significance and beneficial to society or humanity? I sure would like to know.. besides polygamy and violence -
First of all we have to understand the situation in Palestine. Palestine was ‘legally invaded’ by the Jews. With the help of Britain and US they are now able to form their own country by force. The rights of the Palestinian have been denied.Originally posted by the Bear:kyas, there was this one question posed in another forum elsewhere... it was never answered. I cannot remember the exact words but the one who asked the question asked why is it the "moderates" of Islam (frankly, I don't know what a "moderate Muslim" is) do not speak out and put the mullahs in place. The mullahs being the ones who incite violence, praise murderous suicide in Palestine, support terrorists like Hamas and mostly, those who take Islam, and turn it into a tool for political goals.
I know it is not Islam which has failed. It is the people who abuse the power and trust the faithful entrusted on them who have failed.
But if those who know it is wrong keep silent, it is a sad indictment of the religion itself... the people represent the religion... and act for the religion.
Islam is a peaceful religion based on the submission of self to Allah (I learnt that in another board). What has happened to the leaders of Islam who call for Jihad over everything under the sun?
If it happened to Singapore what will you do? Will you say ok and give up you land and properties? I donÂ’t think so. You will stand for your right. You have been living there for generations and suddenly a motion was passed by outsiders saying that your land and properties are now must be given to new owners, the Malays for example. Will you not give a fight?
The Palestinian consider this as an invasion and in Islam the act of protecting the country and oneÂ’s belonging is considered as jihad.
This is what stated in Quran:
The prohibited month for the prohibited month,- and so for all things prohibited,- there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, Transgress ye likewise against him. But fear God, and know that God is with those who restrain themselves. (Al Baqarah:194)
But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (2:192)
There are many groups in Palestine like that you have mentioned above is Hamas and another group call Brigade Al-Aqsa besides the ‘official’ group led by Yasser Arafat. I would like to remind you that what they are trying to do are actually protecting or getting back the land of the Palestinians or they call it occupied territory. They feel that it is their responsibility to take back their own belongings.
Who is the invader here? The Palestinians or the Jews? Why must the Palestinians be called terrorist? It is their land that they are fighting for and they want it back. What is so wrong about fighting for your own rights? That is not an act of terrorist. That is jihad.
With regard to suicide bombing, it is clear in Islam that committing suicide is one of the biggest sins. There are many hadiths that provide such guideline one of them is:
Narrated Abu Huraira-:
The Prophet said, "He who commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself in the Hell Fire (forever) and he who commits suicide by stabbing himself shall keep on stabbing himself in the Hell-Fire." (Sahih Bukhari)
In Quran:
And spend of your substance in the cause of God, and make not your own hands contribute to (your) destruction; but do good; for God loveth those who do good. (Al Baqarah:195)
Suicide bombing by young mis-informed Muslim youths has been carried out almost routinely as a mean of revenge in the Middle East conflict. It is mainly done to avenge their oppression, occupation and loss of freedom they have been experiencing all their life.
It is carried out by the youth who lost all the hope to a peaceful settlement as they witnessed their families, loved ones, neighbors, and the innocent bystanders die or tortured at the hand of a merciless occupying force.
Despite these intolerable situations no permission can be found in Islam to avenge by suicide bombing or by targeting the innocent civilians. These young desperate Muslim youth have been taught what is NOT in the Quran, and what was never promised by God in the Holy book. Innocent civilian must not be the victim in any condition whether it is a war or any struggle.
Why the ‘moderate’ keep quite? The term ‘moderate’ actually refers to the fundamental of Islam i.e. Muslims who follows the true teachings in Islam. There are many verses in Quran that says Muslims must be moderate i.e. not go beyond limits (extremist).
Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (Al Baqarah:190)
He hath only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that on which any other name hath been invoked besides that of God. But if one is forced by necessity, without willful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits,- then is he guiltless. For God is Oft-forgiving Most Merciful. (Al Baqarah:173)
O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty. (Al Baqarah:178 )
But at the same time Muslims must follow His guidance:
And whatever ye spend in charity or devotion, be sure God knows it all. But the wrong-doers have no helpers. (Al Baqarah:270)
We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (Al Baqarah:38 )
There are two important personalities in a true Islamic country. One is called ‘ulama’ – the people who have true knowledge about Islam. Another one is ‘umara’ – the leader. The function of the ‘ulama’ is actually to be the advisor for the ‘umara’ in his administration. But then, if the ‘umara’ do not follow what has been advised by the ‘ulama’, then he/she will be answerable to God in the Hereafter.
Therefore, it is very important to have or to select a true leader and not a dictator like Saddam. I don’t think Saddam will listen to the ‘ulama’ especially in the event of killing the fellow Muslims. The same goes to Bush when Pope John Paul sent ‘peace appeals’ to him. John Paul also told Blair that the Iraq crisis should be resolved in concert with the international community, and having recourse to international law. Did they listen? -
The rule says - stop when the traffic light is red... you ignored it... gedebum!!! accident... is it the system or the people?Originally posted by redtide:People is never the problem .. it's the belief system..in this case, what is taught in Islam and what the religion propagate.
Maybe someone can tell me one .. just one good that Islam has contributed to society..
you want one, i give one...
Al-Khawarizmi (232H-846M), the founder of Algebra -
Hi,Originally posted by redtide:Islam in this case makes people stupid ( not surprise that most muslim filled the bottom rung of society ) ..
I'd avoid getting into this racial/religion right or wrong thingy, but
your comment has prompt me to share 2 little true stories that
may or may not change those notion of yours:
1) The 1st successful rescue of POW Army Pfc. Jessica Lynch just
days ago in Iraq. FoxNews reports how a Muslim had help informed the US troops on Jessica's whereabout after witnessing the condition that she was in.
2) Another case closer to home, it was information provided by local
and foreign Muslims who had come forward to tip off the authority
after 9/11 that had saved Singapore from disasterous consequence of multiple terror attacks.
Muslims may statistically form majority of bottom rung of society,
but some them definately belongs to the higher echelon of moral
responsibility towards the rest of humankind.
Be tackful next time when dealing with this issue.
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