Dewan Rakyat unanimously condemns attack on Iraq by US
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okay, kyas.. the Palestinian issue is to be said and there was "invasion" and all that by the "Jews". Take religion out of this for one moment.
There are a bunch of facts which punch lots of holes in this "Palestinian" issue.
Palestine was never a nation, ever... why after Israel comes into being, is there a clamouring for one. This clamouring was political and it turned bloody and religious.
The Palestinians were allowed citizenship in Israel. Something they were not allowed in places which persecuted them, like in Jordan and Syria. This Israeli citizenship was total... that included voting rights, and full protection under Israeli law.
The "Occupied Territories" are actually not illegally "stolen" by Israel. They are considered spoils of war. A war started by the whole Arab World to wipe out Israel the moment it came to being. This is a buffer should any Arab country decide to attack it again... currently, there is no peace.. an uneasy truce maybe. An Arab leader made peace with Israel and was assassinated for it... Anwar Sadat was a brave man... and he paid with his life.
But I'll provide a list for reading... these show the tragedy written about the Palestinians..
About the whole situation there and this article cuts right to the chase:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15066
Absurd hatemongering site... but everything said there is true!
http://masada2000.org/arafat-plo.html
The true history of Palestine:
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine
Perhaps the most damning of them all was PLO's own Zahir Muhsein who declared to the Dutch Newspaper that there was no such thing as a Palestine and that when they achieve such, they will immediately merge with Jordan. This is explained in the 3rd link.
So, whatever the Palestinian problems the Arabs have been sprouting, I'm not sure where they got that from.
Religion never came into this. It was all politics.. and sadly, I think the whole of the Islamic faithful have been taken for a murderous ride.... I think you would agree with me that yelling of "Allahu Akbar!" before a suicide bombing will probably not exonerate the murderer of his sins. And neither would lying to the world and to their fellow Islamic Brethern about the situation. -
Originally posted by Gun:
Ok.. I am be wrong.. I apologise..
Hi,
I'd avoid getting into this racial/religion right or wrong thingy, but
your comment has prompt me to share 2 little true stories that
may or may not change those notion of yours:
1) The 1st successful rescue of POW Army Pfc. Jessica Lynch just
days ago in Iraq. [b]FoxNews reports how a Muslim had help informed the US troops on Jessica's whereabout after witnessing the condition that she was in.
2) Another case closer to home, it was information provided by local
and foreign Muslims who had come forward to tip off the authority
after 9/11 that had saved Singapore from disasterous consequence of multiple terror attacks.
Muslims may statistically form majority of bottom rung of society,
but some them definately belongs to the higher echelon of moral
responsibility towards the rest of humankind.
Be tackful next time when dealing with this issue.
[/size]
[/b]
I am not saying that the muslim has no morals..
I am saying that something must be wrong like ? Take Malaysia for example.. Mahatir have to keep scolding the Malays to get them to be more industrious.. The chinese are doign well inspite of all the obstacles to protect the native malays. not just here but in Indonesia, Philippines.. In Sinagpore, special places in the Uni is reserved for Malays.. I am not against this as the govt wants to help them too.. It is good that they come up higher to be a blessing to society.
But end of the days, they must be able to wake up and see where their religion and belief is leading them..
At the moment, most are devoid of any good sense. As long as a muslim country is attacked, most will voice their support for that country regardless of whose right or wrong.
I tell you the war is Iraq is not just about WMD. it is about state sponsoring terrorism. after Iraq, a lot more Muslim countries will also get it. -
yes it was never a religious issue in fact some of the palestinians are actually christians... and we can see that most of them are not fighting in the name of islam... they are fighting in the name of palestine... but some of them do... even though palestine was never recognized as a nation... even though palestine was declared by the previous invaders france and britain as an international zone, the people of palestine consider it their homeland.. they consider it as their nation...
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What about the Jews? If you want to yap about history, the Israelis were there in the first place way before the palestinians. They were driven out. So it seems that the phillistines (ancient name for palestinians) are the ones that seize the land from the Israelis.Originally posted by kyas:yes it was never a religious issue in fact some of the palestinians are actually christians... and we can see that most of them are not fighting in the name of islam... they are fighting in the name of palestine... but some of them do... even though palestine was never recognized as a nation... even though palestine was declared by the previous invaders france and britain as an international zone, the people of palestine consider it their homeland.. they consider it as their nation...
One might argue that this is ancient history that the Israelis was driven out and should look into modern times. So in modern times, Israel bought land and created a nation there. They were attacked by arabic nations and managed to keep some of the land required for a buffer zone to prevent any arabic attacks. So what is wrong with that?
If your arguement for ancient time that phillistines were there first and hence they belong there, kyas you are dead wrong as history has shown that the Israelis were there way before phillistines before their exodus. If your arguement for the modern times that palestines deserves to be there, you are again wrong as the Israelis land was bought from some arabs. From what I can see, it is definitely a case of a willing seller and buyer.
If you want to blame the plight of the palestinians, it can be attributed to a number of factors. Y.Araffat, the bickering arabs and the folly of france and britain. For the french and britain, they could have just given the land to the Israelis and nothing to the palestinians. Let the so called "compassionate" arab nation take care of their fellow same kind.
Face it, the reason they wanted palestine to exist is just an excuse for the arabs to drive the Israel from middle east. Once that is achieved (possibility of that happening extremely low), I can bet with you that the arabs would not even give two hoots about the plight of palestinians. -
if you want to talk about history... both arabs and jews were originated from one person... Abraham... in fact you want to go back further... they belong to one ancestor... Adam... both Torah (Holy Book for the Jews) and Quran (for the Muslims) confirmed that... in fact Bible also...Originally posted by mfscrewu:What about the Jews? If you want to yap about history, the Israelis were there in the first place way before the palestinians. They were driven out. So it seems that the phillistines (ancient name for palestinians) are the ones that seize the land from the Israelis.
One might argue that this is ancient history that the Israelis was driven out and should look into modern times. So in modern times, Israel bought land and created a nation there. They were attacked by arabic nations and managed to keep some of the land required for a buffer zone to prevent any arabic attacks. So what is wrong with that?
If your arguement for ancient time that phillistines were there first and hence they belong there, kyas you are dead wrong as history has shown that the Israelis were there way before phillistines before their exodus. If your arguement for the modern times that palestines deserves to be there, you are again wrong as the Israelis land was bought from some arabs. From what I can see, it is definitely a case of a willing seller and buyer.
If you want to blame the plight of the palestinians, it can be attributed to a number of factors. Y.Araffat, the bickering arabs and the folly of france and britain. For the french and britain, they could have just given the land to the Israelis and nothing to the palestinians. Let the so called "compassionate" arab nation take care of their fellow same kind.
Face it, the reason they wanted palestine to exist is just an excuse for the arabs to drive the Israel from middle east. Once that is achieved (possibility of that happening extremely low), I can bet with you that the arabs would not even give two hoots about the plight of palestinians.
i did not say that the land is belong to the palestinians... i only mentioned that the palestinians consider the land as their homeland... their nation... or in other words both the palestinians and the jews consider it as theirs... and it is definitely not a case of a willing seller and buyer because nobody needs army or artillery just to buy a land... -
Funny. 1st, You retracted your earlier remarks with apologyOriginally posted by redtide:Ok.. I am be wrong.. I apologise..I am not saying that the muslim has no morals..
[color=Blue]then next, you are at it again by painting "terrorism = "Muslim countries " in one sweeping statement *Clap clap*. You just dishonour your own words.
I tell you the war is Iraq is not just about WMD. it is about state sponsoring terrorism. after Iraq, a lot more Muslim countries will also get it.
FYI, after over 2 weeks of operation Iraqi Freedom, the coalition forces have yet to find any significant evidence of WMD. Geee...I truely hope they find one cos US gonna lost more trust and friends even if they had won the war.[/b] -
To Atobe,
I am actually not meaning for this discussion to turn into a Malaysia vs Singapore thing. I was just responding to the thread to answer why Malaysians and their government feel that they are against the war. But sadly, it has taken a different turn. But, never mind, its my opinion anyway that will be forthcoming, not whatever they want to do up north.
It is doubtful if the USA will ever carry the stick over the Saudis, there is too much antagonism towards the USA to risk having a major Arab ally being alienated. The US Citizens will be at liberty to pursue private litigation efforts against the Saudis or the Bin Laden Family, but it will be doubtful if the US Government will pursue a line of toughness with the Saudis.
While the Saudis prove useful to the Americans, of course they will hold back the stick (but it is like the sword of Damocles .. its still there over the heads of the Saudis, Jordanians, Egyptians and Turkish) The fact that they are unhappy with the current level of support shown by the above said governments (as reported in The Economis magazine) shows that they will use the stick and carrot routine to get what they (the Americans) want
They try to upstage even the ASEAN Secretariat, by attempting to form an independent Secretariat that reflects the agreed ASEAN+3 concept(?). It was only a result of the strong objections from Indonesia, Philippines and Thailand that this Malaysian idea was dropped.
And what about EAEC? They tried to get consensus from all the members but it was continually shot down by us?
PM MahatirÂ’s attempts to take the lead role is well known for his efforts to lead the Muslim World to withstand competition and degrading attitude from the First World.
The OPEC members did that way back in the 1970s .. they brought the world to its knees. So Dr M is merely taking a page in the book that shows that to deal with capatilistic societies, you have to band together and force the first world to listen to you. Otherwise, the division will always be there to kill you.
His effort (and that of his FM Syed Hamid Albar) to out-do the Arabs is hardly disguised by forming a separate conference of Islamic Countries - to condemn USA in their efforts to attack Saddam or Iraq – within the NAM meeting in Kuala Lumpur in late 2002. The protests from the Arabs put a stop to this matter, as the O.I.C Meeting was to be held ten days later in Doha, after NAM in Kuala Lumpur.
Of course, the current head of OIC, Qatar, put a stop to it as it stands to gain the most from the war.
In any case, why bother with sour grapes if Malaysia decides NOT to measure their system against the Best of the Best; but is quite satisfied with the levels which they envision for themselves.
Well they should be satisfied. Of course the should not rest on their laurels, but it is indeed satisfying what Dr M has done in his tenure compared to what the previous 3 PMs did.
After inheriting the legacy from Nelson Mandela, Thabo had shown his idiocy by declaring that no Government Funds will be given to any hospitals who dare contradict his finding that Aids or HIV is not caused by Virus.
If you will just ignore the issue with AIDS, you will see that he is as capable as any other foreign leader. Just as I take the same stance with GCT. If you just look at the idiotic stance that the PAP has with FW/FT and focus on that, you will not see how Singapore has progressed. Each man has his blind spots and failures.
With violent crimes rising to the point of lawlessness, affecting almost every level of society, the place is no longer safe even in the up market neighborhood. Car jacking, rape, murder, daylight shooting, assaults, and what other violent crimes you can think of, all these are happening in South Africa under Thabo.
Violent crime is bad in SA even BEFORE Mandela's time. His wife (winnie) was even convicted of murdering opposition supporters. There was hate crime, death squads, ghettos and whatnot. The only way you solve this problmes is to improve the economic situation and halt inflation. Hence I am sure that Thabo is doing a better job. Its like saying that because there are still drug pushers in Singapore, LKY and GCT did not do a good job (there are still drug pushers in Singapore .. remember about that abandoned boy in JB? His parents are convicted drug pushers)
In your opinion, could he be doing better than GCT ?
Yes, of course its my opinion, you have to ask the SA's to see if they agree.
While the Malays or Bumiputras had access to soft loans, based on Islamic Banking system, the other ethnic groups have only access to commercial loans based on commercial terms and conditions.
Common misconceptions. Soft loans / Handouts are available to people of all races. Its just that it is more discrete. I can share 2 cases that is well known.
a) Samy Veloo of MIC has borrowed millions from Malaysian banks. When asked to pay (after 4-5 years), he will just pay the principal, not the interest. Indeed, ALL political parties have the same benefits, hence their banking sector was in such a mess a few years ago. So if they want a bank loan, they just join a political party, drop some names and the money will be theirs. Totally unsecured.
b) The reason why there is so much turmoil in MCA right now is because Dr Ling has overstayed his tenure. He was supposed to retire in 1994. He now says he is going by 2005. Why the delay? He needs a successor in place to safeguard his family. His son, has a finger in every pie and has been burnt heavily. If not for the father's position, the son will be killed (whereabouts currently unknown)
So its the whole political regime (Malay, Indian, Chinese) who are corrupted over there.
Of course anything can happen for the future, but given the fine balance of racial harmony that exist in Malaysia, would a savvy politicians dare put his career at risks ?
Of course. If the politician can't do one thing and say another, they won't be politicians.
DonÂ’t count on the stock market recovery after Iraq is taken over.
I was talking about how USA will be rewarding its allies (and the republican party supporters) with plum jobs and pork barrel projects. Its true for all political parties in the world.
“How else do poor "kampung boys", with no historical connections to wealth and fame, can succeed in one generation to have their sons owning and operating corporations that are involved in mega-million dollar enterprises ?”
Lee Kah Shing built his own empire through ingenuity, foresight, and keen business sense.
How could the Malaysian Politicians - who are mainly kampung boys - manage to find their million dollar funds to form mega-corporations for their children to operate, and all in one generation, with the “dads” entering politics mostly coming from poor family background. "
Ah .. but the Malaysian politicians whose sons are in business are the minority. Most of the cronies companies are actually run by the sons of the BUSINESSMEN. Examples are like Sime Darby, Maybank, Maxis, Genting, YTL .. all do not have sons of politicians at the helm. Their father may have built the empire that the son is running now, but its definately scions of the family, not political apointees.
[b]In any case, SingTel is NOT a Private Company owned by Private Capital. The effort in privatization by the SGP Government is only skin deep; as it try to disguise the GLCÂ’s into private companies by selling out to "approved" private public personalities that seems to be acting as "proxies in trust for the Government"(?).
So are you saying that it is misleading the public that those are private companies (that can be invested on) while its actually just a government body? (that the final authority is the government)
Have you forgotten the Singapore Shares ? At least Singaporeans get back something from the Government, despite the losses. What has the Malaysian politicians done with their National Reserves ?
The NSS is a bribe to quiet the people during the last election. (Thats my opinion) The Malaysian people got 1 tax free year. Same thing ..
They could not even pay for their military hardware purchase in Cash, and have to barter with their Palm Oil,
The fact that some country is willing to accept the palm oll at an agreed upon value will bring less burden to the Malaysians, unlike us who buy state of the art toys with precious foreign reserves.
nor do they allocate any funds to handle their problems with the Drug Addicts,
ANY FUNDS? Are you for sure that the Malaysians give RM0.00 to handle their crime and drug problems? Its like saying Singapore allocates ZERO for sports development for locals.
and other social welfare, educational, and infrastructural problems; and yet they make a big thing about investing overseas - which serves as "conduits for leakages".
Malaysia invests more in sports development for their locals than Singapore does. Have you forgotten how our girls lost the netball final to Malaysia in the last sea games despite being the favourite? And the recent tiger cup where we lost to their under23 team? This is development of their youth.
One would expect that at least they put their house in order, before attempting to play the Guardian Angel to help the Third World Countries.
Funny, I was about to say the same thing about Singapore, how we should first learn about true competition in the domestic Singapore market before teaching the likes of China, ASEAN about it.
Building homes in North Korea – would that be a North Korean State Funded Project, or will it be another Malaysian Politician's daylight robbery on their National Reserves ? Altruism or foolishness ?
Your guess is as good as mine. Guess we have to find out by reading the FEER or Economist more.
It should read more accurately if you had written that “the Malaysian Government is doing what it thinks is best to benefit its “cronies”, as the Citizens are hardly aware that such investments exist.
I agree with you
Whatever new opportunities from new emerging markets will benefit the crony operated corporations, and seldom the Malaysian citizens.
Same for Singapore. Benefits to the GLCs will not directly translate to better conditions for most of us ordinary Singaporeans. Buying Optus did not translate to lower phone calls to Australia.
Do not forget that Czech, Poland, Hungary had only until recently emerged from a Stalinist economy, with the collapse of the Soviet Union through Perestoika and Glasnost. MalaysiaÂ’s exposure to the worldÂ’s free and open economy stretches back since it independence from Colonial Rule - a period of more then Forty Years. [b]
Malaysia was a primary commodity producer even in the 70s. They have only started manufacturing in late 70s and early 80s. If you look at the development, they have definately achived more out of the farmers, rubber tappers and tin miners than those communists who work in factores. The factories were all in Singapore. The port was in Singapore. The banks were in Singapore.
ALso, how come Singapore loses out to other NICs like South Korea? They suffered a war back in 1955, a military dictatorship and a horrible economic crisis in 1998. Yet they are stronger than us now. They have better world class industries than Singapore. (And their men have NS)
[b]Surely Malaysia could have done better if measured against those ex-Soviet style economy - instead of only a marginal difference.
I like the could have done better part. In the last few issues of Asiaweek, they showed the ratio of head of government vs ordinary clerk.
Malaysia 26.0
Singapore 86.2
Japan 15.0
Australia 7.4
Thailand 18.2
Indonesia 103
HK 27.7
So since the ratio of what leaders are paid in comparison to what ordinary workers get is so high in Singapore, we should be able to get leadership here that can perform 3 times (300%) better than Malaysia. Sadly, we are only about 1 or 2 % better. Indeed, GCT is paid 8 times Dr M .. and is our performance that much better?
Like that, I will agree that Malaysia COULD HAVE done better. But you will have to agree that our politicians COULD HAVE also DONE better or better yet, be PAID MUCH LESS.
Singapore’s economy has reached a level of maturity – much like that seen in Japan, and other First World economy.
Then we must measure Singapore with NICs, Japan with G8 and Malaysia with the developing world's. No point then comparing Singapore and Switzerland, Malaysia with Uganda and Japan with North Korea. Apples to Apples. And by apples to apples, Malaysia is doing great for a developing country. -
Originally posted by Gun:
The point is.. Twin towers came down.. somebody must have sponsored it.. whether they find WMD in Iraq or not is immaterial..
FYI, after over 2 weeks of operation Iraqi Freedom, the coalition forces have yet to find any significant evidence of WMD. Geee...I truely hope they find one cos US gonna lost more trust and friends even if they had won the war.
A lot of arab nations are sponsoring terrorism.. not surprise if Syria, Lebanon, Sudan are some of the cohorts..
I am for peace, but if anyone came and bomb and bring down any tower, we have a right to give them a taste of their medicine
Another point is .. Allah, god of Shintoism and Nazis are all defeated and dead. The Good always triumph over evil.
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i think u need 2 c my topics i post, ur thinking is somewhat kinda ironic n simpleminded......Originally posted by redtide:The point is.. Twin towers came down.. somebody must have sponsored it.. whether they find WMD in Iraq or not is immaterial..
A lot of arab nations are sponsoring terrorism.. not surprise if Syria, Lebanon, Sudan are some of the cohorts..
I am for peace, but if anyone came and bomb and bring down any tower, we have a right to give them a taste of their medicine
Another point is .. Allah, god of Shintoism and Nazis are all defeated and dead. The Good always triumph over evil.
i agree wad Gun has said....n btw how do u define pure gd n evil in this world? there nvr been a pure gd n evil in this world....
this war has 2 much propagandas on both sides......b neutral in this war, there's more to go.......dun be so happy about the liberalisation of iraq onli...... -
Will being neutral rid Asia of the Japanese in WW2 ?Originally posted by duotiga83:this war has 2 much propagandas on both sides......b neutral in this war, there's more to go.......dun be so happy about the liberalisation of iraq onli......
Will being neutral solved the terroism problem..
YOu tell me.
Who is the simpleton here.. ? Without the Atomic bomb, the japs would still be hurling baby at will into the air and piecing them with bayonets.
The way to deal with all these evil is to be more brutal and cruel than the terrorist or state that sponsor terrorism.
Why shouldn't I be happy ? It will send a message to those nations sponsoring terrorism.. that they are next. You think Osama can do it alone with his own money?
I am not for war, nobody is. Everybody want to live safely and in peace. Mind our own business and prosper. But get real, if diplomacy and talk works, it would have solve the problems long ago...
Open your eyes and stop living in a la la land, like a ostrich..
Most of these so called Islamic teachers are compulsive liars and cowards. They got the guts to commit an evil acts and have no guts to admit them. Such is the way of ganster and hooligan. they will look gung hu in a crowd but when confronted alone, they break down.
While the US is trying to avoid civilian targets, the terrorist only targets civilians. Why, because they do not have enuf brains to organise themselves into a proper fighting force because of too much infighting and they have to resort to civilians target.
They are just simpleton being used by the religious leaders for their own personal agenda. They can commit anything they want.. in the name of god... at the whim and fancy of the leaders. The leaders proclaim Jihad for every little thing.. to ensure that they continue to remain in power.
Yes, I feel sorry for the innocnet civllians. In any conflict, it is the civilians that suffers the most, esp the children. unfortunately, I see Saddam and his official using the human shield as a way to protect them.. only rats like them would resort to such low down act. -
relac ah boy.....i am saying that there is more that meets the eye....nw th eworld have change so much, if u wan to go history, y dun go back to ancient history n compare now? any similarities? this war is not a simple war.......everithing nw has it cause n effect, the cause of this war has already started......but then wad is the effect?
if u say terror, then u point to 9-11, but ask urself have the 9-11 got its incidents investigations? where r the black boxes? y no contiuation of investigation? 3 yrs have past........
dun just look at iraq onli...c th eworld, read both sides of the war, compile, analyse urself, read their culure, read american cultures and history.......
this is just the beginning of everithing.......
ps: read bout the washington dc monument, the oblisek n find out wad is it. -
I find your outlook most interesting.... which comic books have you been catching up with lately ? I supposed the Darkside can be defeated with a mix of Luke-I-feel-something and Obiwankanobi vs DarthVader empire. Good triumps of Evil etc etc .Originally posted by redtide:The Good always triumph over evil.
Yah right.
May more knowledge be casted upon you. -
Originally posted by kenhor:
Funny. How do you conclude that "us" (Singapore) had continually shot down EAEC ? WHERE is your source of this claim ? Another baseless accusation again from you again ?FYI, MFA Jayakumar had clarified this one of many accusations from the Malaysian in the parliament back in Paragraph 5 of Introduction in 25 Jan reply to the backbenchers questions.
To Atobe,
[quote]And what about EAEC? They tried to get consensus from all the members but it was continually shot down by us?Then we must measure Singapore with NICs, Japan with G8 and Malaysia with the developing world's. No point then comparing Singapore and Switzerland, Malaysia with Uganda and Japan with North Korea. Apples to Apples. And by apples to apples, Malaysia is doing great for a developing country.
So how do you justify your earlier comparison of India and Malaysia's
economic performances based on historical longivity ?
Apple to apple ? What crap analogy is that ? -
To Gun,
About the EAEC .. Dr M has 2 opponents .. Japan and Singapore. The rest were either neutral or supportive. Japan has its reasons for not supporting the idea (brings back memories about the Greater Japan Co-Prosperity Sphere) As for Singapore, if Malaysia's closest neighbour can not support the idea, it is doomed to failure, hence Dr M's anger.
As for the India comparison, this proves my point exactly. If you read my statement EARLIER, I was saying that we should not compare Singapore with Malaysia. As both countries are different. I used the India example to highlight that if we compared Singapore to Malaysia, may as well compare Malaysia to India .. statistics will prove that Singapore is better than Malaysia who is better than India (and by inferrence, a small tiny country 640 sq km is better than a country > 2000 years old, 1 billion population and possesses nukes and an aircraft carrier.) -
Originally posted by kenhor:
This is truely lame. Did you attempted some indepth research on the failure of Malaysia's proposal of EAEG ? I had. Read this absract of Joseph M Grieco's book "Realism and Regionalism at this LINK
To Gun,
About the EAEC .. Dr M has 2 opponents .. Japan and Singapore.
"Malaysia's EAEG proposal appears never to have had a good chance for success. Singapore was the ONLY country in the region during 1991 to offer even qualified OFFICIAL support for the proposal (Kyodo News Service, 1991)"
Japan lack of support because of her WW2 experience ? Read again:
"Japan's then PM Toshiki Kaifu was quoted as saying "At the time when we are trying to buld a free trade system, we shouldn't create problems and misunderstandings with the aimless establishment of lots of small groups. (AFP, 1991:" Tokyo Cold Shoulders EAEG)As for the India comparison, this proves my point exactly. If you read my statement EARLIER, I was saying that we should not compare Singapore with Malaysia.
No comparison between Singapore with Malaysia you say ?
Have you being living in cave for the last few yrs ?
So tell me why that frequent benchmarking of Singapore by Malaysian officials from SARS figures to football tournaments ?
At least, you didn't deny the fact that I've mentioned :
If the My gov truely "thinks" of what is best for its citizens then it would not hv stubbornly implement policies which had resulted in lagging behind Singapore in almost all aspects of economic and social development since independence.
So what was your reply to this ?Its much, much easier to manage a small tiny city 630 sq km than a country 1000 times bigger, 5 times more people. By your same same measure.
Sure ken, sure. So you say Singapore small = Easy to manage
I too wish the reality of life had been just as simple as you've envision.. -
To Gun,
At least, you didn't deny the fact that I've mentioned :
If the My gov truely "thinks" of what is best for its citizens then it would not hv stubbornly implement policies which had resulted in lagging behind Singapore in almost all aspects of economic and social development since independence.
Which part of Economic development do you want to talk about?
a) Singapore had the manufacturing base (not to mention financial and port facilities) for Malaya. Malaysia started their industrial development only in late 70s. Before that, it was a commodity developer (The Economist .. check it out at www.economist.com/surveys)
b) Our head of government is paid like 20x that of the Malaysian PM, if you want to look at ratios, sure. By the Asiaweek salary survey 2001, GCT's package is 86x that of a entry level clerk, while Dr M's is 26x. By that measure, Singapore's government should have outperformed the Malaysian government by 3x. What are we seeing? Real GDP figures between 1991 and 2003 show that Singapore is only about 25% higher than Malaysia.
The real benchmark is to set Malaysia at 1.0, and see how well our country perform against them .. by our higher wages, better living conditions, better trained and incorriptible government, we should be 3x better than the malaysians. Sadly, we are only 25% better while paying 300% more.
As for social development,
c) I live in a democratic country where I was eligible for 2 general elections, yet was not able to participate in any.
d) I see my highly paid FT sportsmen lose regularly to a bunch of young malaysians in Squash, Bowling, Soccer and Badminton.
e) I see the first Singaporean resident who climbed Everest did so as a Malaysian (who was 10 years a PR)
f) I see we have the highest % of population in the world who is behind bars.
g) I see that even our ex-President (God rest his soul) can not ask the pap regime to account for the national reserves
h) I see Government scholars being made BG rank by the age of 39.
i) I see people being retrenched and the government still gets paid million dollar salaries.
j) I see we still bring in FT from overseas by the workload, while the unemployment rate of the fresh graduates stand at about 25%.
Yes. ... Malaysia is probably worse than us economically and socially due to their stubbornness .. but being meek as sheep to our PAP's style of authoritarian dictatorism is not the answer as well. -
The only way to solve the Israel situation is if 1 side destroys the other side completely. Which should not be too difficult for the Jews cos the Jews have penetrated into USA administration, US backing for Israel will eventually kill the rag heads in palestine sooner or later. Just wait.
As for Malaysia being against the war, if they make too much noise, be careful for they may be next, along with other muslim countries that support terrorism, i am not saying Malaysia supports T. Malaysia can do nothing about the war in Iraq, they are not strong enough to take on the white allies.
I fear that with Iraq defeated now, colonialism may come back in the form of America controlling Iraq's oil now. So we will wait and see.
I'll bet Georgey Bushshit will blame SARS on Saddam sooner or later. Interesting is it not? SARS came out during the attacks on Iraq, and Saddam is supposed to have Weapons of Mass Destruction, I would not be surprised if SARS is a weapon, as it definately appears so, it can kill people slowly and decisively, plus it has a good guise of a common pneumonia. I'll bet it was purposely set of in China to distable USA and China relations, since they don't like each other much.
I wonder if Muslims all around the world will see the attack on Iraq as a new modern day crusade? G.Bush himself said it was a crusade against terror, i'll also bet that most white american christians are ultra Anti-Muslim now. -
Originally posted by kenhor:
[color=darkred]
To Gun,
Which part of Economic development do you want to talk about?
Oh ken, do you always need to be spoonfed with all these data when it is all over the internet ???
Source : http://www.aseansec.org & http://www.cia.gov
Malaysia land area : 329,758 sq.km
Population : 23.3 million (2000).
Currency : Malaysian Ringgit 3.8/USD
GDP : RM 339.4 billion (2000) at current market prices
Purchasing power parity - $9,000 (2001 est.)
Labour force 9.9 million (2001 est.)
Revenues: $20.3 billion
Singapore land area : 647.8 sq.km
Population : 4.0 million (2000)
Currency : Singapore Dollar (S$) 1.8/USD
GDP : S$ 159.0 billion (2000) at current market prices
Purchasing power parity - $24,700 (2001 est.)
Labour force 2.19 million (2000)
Revenues: $27.9 billion
So apple-to-apple, whatever happned to that missing $8billion of rev from MY if both countries are of equal land mass and demography ? Reality bites. And that is why Malaysian officials can't get over the fact that a "small & easily managed" country has its per-capital income 3 times more than their resource-rich land.
As for the Singapore's ministerial pay package, I am awed by their fat income, but definately not impressed by the measure of their recent performance. So do you hv a better formular for those policians ? Cut their pay ? Maybe, but how will it improve Singapore's economy in any significant manner other than gaining dividends in the popular front and winning over the disgrunted folks like you ?
In short by highlighting those cabinet minister pay will not serve your argument well considering the fact that MY gov has itself in comparision is muddled in corrupt and self-righteous race-driven enrichment that drove so many of its non-bumi oversea in seeking better opportunities. You've already set your agenda clear here in that A-J list of complains and dissatisfaction towards the current SG gov. By all means present your dissent, eventhough it is driven by emotion, but avoid the pitfalls of erroneous facts that you have presented earlier. Chee had done that and pay a heavy price for his polictial future.
Are you prepared for that , or just doing you "bit" as nay-saying Singaporean ? -
Dear Gun,
Here is what you have printed.
Malaysia land area : 329,758 sq.km
Population : 23.3 million (2000).
Currency : Malaysian Ringgit 3.8/USD
GDP : RM 339.4 billion (2000) at current market prices
Purchasing power parity - $9,000 (2001 est.)
Labour force 9.9 million (2001 est.)
Revenues: $20.3 billion
Singapore land area : 647.8 sq.km
Population : 4.0 million (2000)
Currency : Singapore Dollar (S$) 1.8/USD
GDP : S$ 159.0 billion (2000) at current market prices
Purchasing power parity - $24,700 (2001 est.)
Labour force 2.19 million (2000)
Revenues: $27.9 billion
So apple-to-apple, whatever happned to that missing $8billion of rev from MY if both countries are of equal land mass and demography ? Reality bites. And that is why Malaysian officials can't get over the fact that a "small & easily managed" country has its per-capital income 3 times more than their resource-rich land.
Suggest that you first figure out what the 27.9 BILLION number really means .. that is TAX revenue that the government of the country gets (I looked in the CIA handbook like you said) That does not talk about what the COUNTRY actually earns (private and public funds)
Malaysian Workforce = 9.9 out of 23 = 43%
Singapore workforce = 2.2 out of 4.1 = 53%
Singapore has 23% more workers
tax income/gdp Malaysia = 20.3b/89b = 23%
tax income/gdp Singapore = 27.9b/89b = 33%
Singapore has 43% more tax income
If you want to use that statistics, fine, that means that Singaporeans, pay 27.9 billion / 4 million people = $6975 per person (28.2% of the per cap ppp)
While in Malaysia, they pay 20.3b / 23.3m people = $871 per person (9.6% of the per cap ppp)
So we have 43% more tax income, at 23% more workforce who pay 3 times more tax than the malaysians if you compare it apples to apples. And they have to spread that amount to an area 510 TIMES the size of Singapore. Thats the kind of statistics that the Malaysian PEOPLE definately want to avoid. Their government may want it and gnash their teeth, but if I were a Malaysian, I will be happy the way it is.
As for the Singapore's ministerial pay package, I am awed by their fat income, but definately not impressed by the measure of their recent performance. So do you hv a better formular for those policians ? Cut their pay ? Maybe, but how will it improve Singapore's economy in any significant manner other than gaining dividends in the popular front and winning over the disgrunted folks like you ?
My point is that we have those statistics above and we pay millions to the ministers. If we pay peanuts, we get monkeys. Yet the monkeys are able to achieve whatever they are doing, without need for FT, million dollar salaries and NS. It makes you think of the sacrifices that have to be made in order to get that small extra singapore has (compared to Malaysia)
In short by highlighting those cabinet minister pay will not serve your argument well considering the fact that MY gov has itself in comparision is muddled in corrupt and self-righteous race-driven enrichment that drove so many of its non-bumi oversea in seeking better opportunities. You've already set your agenda clear here in that A-J list of complains and dissatisfaction towards the current SG gov. By all means present your dissent, eventhough it is driven by emotion, but avoid the pitfalls of erroneous facts that you have presented earlier. Chee had done that and pay a heavy price for his polictial future.
No doubt the Malaysians are corrupt. But even with corruption, they managed to provide democracy, youth development, economic progress and claw their way out of the middle ages. I have nothing against them. I think they done a wonderful job. Its only people who think that "THEY CAN DO BETTER" that I am posting the above to reason with them. They do things their way, we do things our way. If I want to achieve economic statistics, I live in Singapore. If I want the 5Cs by 40, I live in Malaysia. Its a choice we all make.
Are you prepared for that , or just doing you "bit" as nay-saying Singaporean ?
We do our NS because we feel that National Security is something worth sacrificing for. However, there are also those amongst us who feel that democracy is a noble idea and also worth sacrificing for. A democratic way of life is what seperates North and South Korea, the West and USSR, Isreal and the ARABs (this one is at least what the zionist backers want the USA public to think, that USA supports Isreal because they are the only true democracy in the region)
There are 2 types of Nay Sayers .. one who just want to say it, others who put constructive criticism as a way to improve the life here. I do consider myself to be the latter. -
The only way to solve the Israel situation is if 1 side destroys the other side completely. Which should not be too difficult for the Jews cos the Jews have penetrated into USA administration, US backing for Israel will eventually kill the rag heads in palestine sooner or later. Just wait.
As for Malaysia being against the war, if they make too much noise, be careful for they may be next, along with other muslim countries that support terrorism, i am not saying Malaysia supports T. Malaysia can do nothing about the war in Iraq, they are not strong enough to take on the white allies.
I fear that with Iraq defeated now, colonialism may come back in the form of America controlling Iraq's oil now. So we will wait and see.
I'll bet Georgey Bush$#&@ will blame SARS on Saddam sooner or later. Interesting is it not? SARS came out during the attacks on Iraq, and Saddam is supposed to have Weapons of Mass Destruction, I would not be surprised if SARS is a weapon, as it definately appears so, it can kill people slowly and decisively, plus it has a good guise of a common pneumonia. I'll bet it was purposely set of in China to distable USA and China relations, since they don't like each other much.
I wonder if Muslims all around the world will see the attack on Iraq as a new modern day crusade? G.Bush himself said it was a crusade against terror, i'll also bet that most white american christians are ultra Anti-Muslim now. -
Originally posted by kenhor:
Suggest that you first figure out what the 27.9 BILLION number really means .. that is TAX revenue that the government
How I wish it is that simple. Just pulled out your calculator, punch a couple of divide and equal keys and ....Wa~lah ! you got your ownfigures to fireback. All too often, such practice of oversimplification tend to backfire on its author instead
KMPG would love to hire you as a econonomist consultant if your elementary approach is that simple and effective.
Sadly, certified consultants such as KPMG are provide a contradicting report from your simpleton analysis :
According to this [KPMG report on comparison of effective personal tax rates , SG(in 2000) is 9.5% & MY@ 21.4%
KPMG also mentioned that even in 2002 the Singapore progressive tax rates for a resident taxpayer range from 3% to 26%. ( Remember the basic income tax rule ? Rate is subjected to incoming level)My point is that we have those statistics above and we pay millions to the ministers. If we pay peanuts, we get monkeys. Yet the monkeys are able to achieve whatever they are doing,without need for FT, million dollar salaries and NS.
So, now you complaining about FT,NS and overpaid ministers ?
I thought I've asked you about your solution to the overpaid ministers. You failed to reply on that one so far.
There are quite a number of FT in current SG cabinet.
So which one do you dislike ?
NS ? So why MY starting to cook its own receipty of NS ?If I want the 5Cs by 40, I live in Malaysia. Its a choice we all make.
Last time I head that was several thousand Malaysian PR who hv settled in SGP, few wish to return to MY and many either took on SPG citizenship or migrated to NZ or OZ.
Hence, no one is stopping you from taking chance in MY during after retirement. Go head then.There are 2 types of Nay Sayers .. one who just want to say it, others who put constructive criticism as a way to improve the life here. I do consider myself to be the latter.
You forget, there is a 3rd type of nay-sayer :
One who just wanna complain for the sack of complaining. -
How I wish it is that simple. Just pulled out your calculator, punch a couple of divide and equal keys and ....Wa~lah ! you got your ownfigures to fireback. All too often, such practice of oversimplification tend to backfire on its author instead
KMPG would love to hire you as a econonomist consultant if your elementary approach is that simple and effective.
Sadly, certified consultants such as KPMG are provide a contradicting report from your simpleton analysis :
According to this [KPMG report on comparison of effective personal tax rates , SG(in 2000) is 9.5% & MY@ 21.4%
KPMG also mentioned that even in 2002 the Singapore progressive tax rates for a resident taxpayer range from 3% to 26%. ( Remember the basic income tax rule ? Rate is subjected to incoming level)
I never said PERSONAL INCOME TAX .. I said government tax revenues. The personal income tax of both countries are well known, just get at Great Easter Life diary. Its the way the government get the revenue that you posted. You claim 27b or 28b, I agree. Now that I expose it as taxation, you panic.
So, now you complaining about FT,NS and overpaid ministers ?
I thought I've asked you about your solution to the overpaid ministers. You failed to reply on that one so far.
Simple. Give them the same salary scale as their counterparts in Finland, Switzerland or any of the 6 countries that rank higher than Singapore in the Corruption Index.
There are quite a number of FT in current SG cabinet. So which one do you dislike ?
Name one that is not a citizen.
NS ? So why MY starting to cook its own receipty of NS ?
All of Malaysia's current achievements have been done without NS. They only are due to start their NS next year.
Last time I head that was several thousand Malaysian PR who hv settled in SGP, few wish to return to MY and many either took on SPG citizenship or migrated to NZ or OZ.
most of those who settled have not yet given up their Malaysian Citizenship. In fact, one well known PR had to give up his cherished Malaysian citizenship AFTER he climbed Mount Everest.
You forget, there is a 3rd type of nay-sayer : One who just wanna complain for the sack of complaining.
And the fourth type is those who insult and try and silence all forms of dissent. -
Originally posted by kenhor:
[color=darkred]Huh ? Backtracking to what you've based on ?
I never said PERSONAL INCOME TAX .. I said government tax revenues.
Sorry, but can u help clarify what those arithmetic acrobats that you've used earlier e.g "While in Malaysia, they pay 20.3b / 23.3m people = $871 per person (9.6% of the per cap ppp) "
What are those population figures for ? If not PERSONAL INCOME TAX is included in this revenue, then where else does ANY gov gets its pay cheque ? cooperate ? bonds ? FR ? loan ?
You hv failed to challenge the KPMG report that I've presented, you even hv the cheek to say that u DID'NT mention PERSONAL INCOME TAX after all those calculation from u ?
Like I've said, unless you hv better substitue for those million-dollar ministers and comeup with some plausible explaination for your disgruntment about NS, FT, etc etc, your continue ducking of my direct rebutals to all those lame excuses and complains of yours
has cast great doubts in your ability to take account of your life in relation to the rest of the society.
If you judge yourself as better than those folks in parliament and is capable of magnanimous contribution to the society at large, I then hv 2 suggestion that you can do
1 - Join politics and be the next GE candidate
2 - else go see a shrink. -
Huh ? Backtracking to what you've based on ?
Sorry, but can u help clarify what those arithmetic acrobats that you've used earlier e.g "While in Malaysia, they pay 20.3b / 23.3m people = $871 per person (9.6% of the per cap ppp) "
My source is the same as yours.. www.cia.gov. Let me just simplyfy it for you, and use per worker calculations.
In the factbook, it is claimed that
For Singapore
Population: 4,452,732 (July 2002 est.)
Labor force: 2.19 million (2000)
Unemployment rate: 4.7% (2001 est.)
Budget: revenues: $27.9 billion
expenditures: $19.5 billion
GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity - $24,700 (2001 est.)
For Malaysia
Population: 22,662,365 (July 2002 est.)
Labor force: 9.9 million (2001 est.)
Unemployment rate: 3.7% (2001 est.)
Budget: revenues: $20.3 billion
expenditures: $27.2 billion
GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity - $9,000 (2001 est.)
So if you want an apples to apples comparison, Singapore budget revenue = 27.9b, while Malaysia's is 20.3b .. (so 27.9/20.3 = 1.37) that is 37% more tax. Singapore workers = 2.19/4.4 = 49% of population. Malaysia's is 9.9/22.6 = 43% .. so Singapore has (49%/43%) = 14% more per cap workers.
And tax / work pop = 27.9b/2.19 = 12,739 (Singapore) and 20.3/9.9 = 2050 (Malaysia) ..
Tax / PPP = 12739 / 24700 = 51.5%(Singapore) and 2050 / 9000 = 22.8% (Malaysia)
So very simply on a per cap worker calculation, 14% more workers in Singapore generate 37% more tax .. , and also SIngapore workers are taxed (either directly or indirectly) at 2.25 times more than Malaysian workers.
What are those population figures for ? If not PERSONAL INCOME TAX is included in this revenue, then where else does ANY gov gets its pay cheque ? cooperate ? bonds ? FR ? loan ?
you tell me .. how then can the Singapore government generate additional 7 billion worth of revenue if our so called personal income tax rates are lower (according to your kpmg) source?
You hv failed to challenge the KPMG report that I've presented, you even hv the cheek to say that u DID'NT mention PERSONAL INCOME TAX after all those calculation from u ?
Malaysia's tax rates
http://www.hasilnet.org.my/WebLHDNE.nsf/00a275e5bafb6d458525647900760437/cd500f96ec84e934482568b2000e0723?OpenDocument
Singapore's tax rates
http://www.contactsingapore.org.sg/global_talent/gt1.1/gt1.1.2/tax.htm
So .. assuming that an average Malaysian earns US$9000 (according to www.cia.gov .. which is your source) .. that is RM34,200, the Malaysian will pay RM2,025 (6%)
A Singaporean will earn US$24,700, (same source) that is S$44,460 .. that is S$4,000 (9%)
So already it is proven using government sources, that an average Singaporean will pay 50% more tax than a Malaysian. (9% vs 6%)
Like I've said, unless you hv better substitue for those million-dollar ministers and comeup with some plausible explaination for your disgruntment about NS, FT, etc etc, your continue ducking of my direct rebutals to all those lame excuses and complains of yours
has cast great doubts in your ability to take account of your life in relation to the rest of the society.
I already came out with my replies.
If you judge yourself as better than those folks in parliament and is capable of magnanimous contribution to the society at large, I then hv 2 suggestion that you can do
1 - Join politics and be the next GE candidate
2 - else go see a shrink.
See what I mean about the fourth type of nay sayers -
Originally posted by kenhor:
One sad thing about you, as I've mentioned earlier, is your inability to grasp the facts in an educated informative approach to the info provided. Here we are, using the same piece of data that I've presented and you come up with your own flawed concept of statistic based argument.
My source is the same as yours.. www.cia.gov. Let me just simplyfy it for you, and use per worker calculations.
Example :
You say " Singapore has (49%/43%) = 14% more per cap workers". Doesn't that contradicts with your ealier assumption that at MY is better off than SGP in unemployment figure ? So why that SGP has 14% more than MY om per population headcount ?
Next, you cumulate the entire working population as the ONLY source of gov revenue. You can't be serious that personal income tax alone is enuf for ANY gov to function with this budgetary ?!you tell me .. how then can the Singapore government generate additional 7 billion worth of revenue if our so called personal income tax rates are lower (according to your kpmg) source?
I've already hinded you the answer to that "missing" 7.0biilion income that Singapore gov is capable of making. For goodness sack, what hv you being doing in most of your adult working life ???
Free airport tax ? Free harboring and free airline landing rights ?Free liquo/cigar tax ? Free GST/VAT retails ?
Free cooperate investment tax ? Free housing and TV licensing tax ? Ken, if you wanna find a country that truely beats SGP in the tax-heaven department, try pick Brunei. The irony is even the their financial institution prefers to tie thier currency is SGD instead of that MY's ringgit. Hmmm...I wander why...
Now, even hving visited boths IR sites of SGP & MY, you still insist in your argument by blindly applying GDP figures to universally understood non-linear personl incoming tax practices.
GDP figure s the AVERAGE while the tax rating is based in INDIVIDUAL income. The more accurate measure of both countries tax rate should be on similar incoming level.
So if a MY worker annual income of 50,000riggin, he got 4,275.
For SGP worker with same income of at SGD, tax at 2,625I already came out with my replies.
I have already demolish most of them.See what I mean about the fourth type of nay sayers
Before you start putting forth of a 5th-type, do you understand what naysayer actually refers to ??
"To oppose, deny, or take a pessimistic or negative view of"
Source : The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language.
So how does your "fourth" type falls into the category of naysayer. IMO, my replies are most appropriate towards incongruousness character.