find ns a waste of time
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aiya, area cleaning is part n parcel of regimentation. Teaches recruits to live a regimented life, where each person does his/her part to help the platoon abide by the standards set. There nothing more to that.
Just that sometimes, the spec's don't set a good example by tidying their own bunks, at the same times, imposing unreasonable standards on us. That i feel is very f-ed up. -
SEE your specialists' bunk, my dear friend.
hey, not always true lah... now that i'm outta there, hindsight allows me more objectivity lah...
true, specs bunk sometimes quite bad shape, but specs are humans too... they DO clean up... who likes to live in a pig-sty???
2 reasons to clean up lah... (a) RSM inspection (b) when its really bad...
one of the specs in my coy known to have bad sinus problem one... if the place is dirty, he will be sneezing non-stop... so his bunk-mates do care and help him out... its only human... how can u sabo your friends? thats why NS teaches u to get along with the people around you and be considerate to other people's needs.Would anybody have a sense of belonging to the toilet he is cleaning?
actually, YES... it gets immensely territorial... u use it, u clean it. its a chore, but everybody likes to use a clean toilet what!
and when YOU clean a toilet, u don't allow anybody else to use it... its a known trick... after u clean your floor's toilet, u use other floor's one until the inspection is over and sometimes, there'll be people shoo-ing u away from their toilets... i've seen it so many times...HAHAHA. Are your going to shoot the MG gunner with your M16?
aiya, don't talk about shooting your own people lah... i don't agree with many orcifer's nonsense also... u follow instructions because its not too contrary to your interests... no such thing as lan-lan one...
u think men stoopid ah? u give them stoopid instructions they will twang one what... and people i've worked with don't always see area cleaning as too contrary to our self-interests... we hate dirty enviornments.HUH? I didn't know your mum will complain to MINDEF when u fall sick.
u're joking man... some parents will even write letters to M.Ps if their son encounter the slightest problem in camp...Hmm... don't tell me you have never given extras to disobedient soldiers?
chey... who never kena extras in NS before...CORRECT. The key phrase is "to provide its soldiers". Not the other way round. We are not supposed to clean up toliets used by other superior beings (we all know WHO are they) since everybody has the responsbility to maintain the common area CLEAN.
this is one point i agree with lah... orcifers anyhow use toilet, never help to maintain... sometimes really quite fed up lah... -
10cm
For your info, the unit which I am in, the specialists and men share the same bunk so as to foster espirt de corp. As for officers, they do have their own bunk and they do keep it clean. The reason is in discipline. If you don't have the discipline to keep your area clean, then how can you be expect to maintain discipline in operational time. In any organisation, there will be bad sheep, but don't assume that one bad officer or specialist equal to the whole organisation is full of them. And again for your info, my OC often order stand by bunk for officers, specialists and man once every month.
No one is arguing who has a sense of belonging when cleaning toilet. It is the bloody refusal to do area cleaning because the soldier is lazy to do it that irks me. Who doesn't do area cleaning during his stinct in NS?
No, I will not shoot the soldier that does not follow order with my M16 but with my carbine. And you did not even understand what I wrote, do you? I said charging an MG position as in attacking it not to take charge of it.
As what CX has pointed out, you will be surprised at what some parents will do to ensure their precious son does not go through what they perceive as tough training.
I did say provide the soldiers with cleaning equipment and ordered the soldiers to keep the bunk clean. Tell me is there any soldiers in any armed forces that do not perform area cleaning? If you can point that out, perhaps you can suggest it to Mindef. So what's the big deal in cleaning a toilet after someone use it? There is only 2 ways from what I can see, you either clean it and forget about it, or you clean it, continue to complain and be upset about it and still get to clean it again next time. I for one is not someone who spent my NS days grumbling about the toilet cleaning duties, there are far more better things for me to do.
I don't need your pity. In fact, I should be the one doing that to you afterall I enjoyed my NS days and still look forward to my ICT.
I am not an officer at all. I got my 2 stripes within 8 mths into NS. And after my 1st ICT, I got my 3rd stripe. And I still sleep with my platoon mates. There is still no dedicated quarters to specialists and man. So for all your guessing, you are hopelessly wrong. Remember assumptions is the mother of all f.u.c.k-ups. -
well, as mentioned, it is not a big deal to clean it... but it IS a big deal if others do not respect your labour and use it without regard and consideration... THAT irks me, not the job of cleaning it itself.Originally posted by mfscrewu:... So what's the big deal in cleaning a toilet after someone use it? There is only 2 ways from what I can see, you either clean it and forget about it, or you clean it, continue to complain and be upset about it and still get to clean it again next time. I for one is not someone who spent my NS days grumbling about the toilet cleaning duties, there are far more better things for me to do.
this is especially sickening if those who dirty it are some screwed up NSF orcifer... those types, really... will end up getting shot by their men in times of war... -
Originally posted by CX:
I do appreciate it when my mates does the toilet cleaning duties. However, sad to say, there will always be that asshole you mentioned who does not recognise and appreciate the labour and effort in maintaining the toilet. Then again life is sometime like that, just take it in your stride and move on. Someone can grumble, spit, curse and swear but when there is a standby, that person still have to clean it.
well, as mentioned, it is not a big deal to clean it... but it [b]IS a big deal if others do not respect your labour and use it without regard and consideration... THAT irks me, not the job of cleaning it itself.
this is especially sickening if those who dirty it are some screwed up NSF orcifer... those types, really... will end up getting shot by their men in times of war...
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I met some really screwed up officers and my team did got back at them during their navex. Just send them going around in LCK. There are however some officers who take care of their men. My coy 2IC and PC are some of them. To them, if the men don't get to rest, they likewise don't rest. -
[quote]Originally posted by mfscrewu:
In any organisation, there will be bad sheep, but don't assume that one bad officer or specialist equal to the whole organisation is full of them.
Precisely, and please don't assume that one good officer or specialist you see represents the whole lot. We all know how SAF works.
And again for your info, my OC often order stand by bunk for officers, specialists and man once every month.
Mine OC did THIS ROUTINE also. 4 hours for the men and 20 minutes for the specialist.
No one is arguing who has a sense of belonging when cleaning toilet. It is the bloody refusal to do area cleaning because the soldier is lazy to do it that irks me. Who doesn't do area cleaning during his stinct in NS?
I have been cleaning the toilet for bloody 2 and half years my dear friend. Not because I am damn fxxx up. But because I am a men. We woke up every morning at 6am to do our area cleaning but our superiors woke up at 7.30am to do the inspection. Fair? You tell me.
No, I will not shoot the soldier that does not follow order with my M16 but with my carbine. And you did not even understand what I wrote, do you? I said charging an MG position as in attacking it not to take charge of it.
Sorry I don't. And I apologise for my mistake.
As what CX has pointed out, you will be surprised at what some parents will do to ensure their precious son does not go through what they perceive as tough training.
Further to what you have said before, please don't assume every (or even majority) f the parents is like that. We are not living in the 60's where parents actually sent their son away to China to escape from NS.
(To be continued...)[/b] -
you never see kungfu movies meh?? all the shaolin monks start with sweeping before they start practising the real thing..Originally posted by gUms:If singapore goes to war , i think maybe we in trouble cos we spent more of our time doing area cleaning damn pissed off always area cleaning and is not like just 1 hr some time is like 2 to 3 hrs , think our army has de best sweepers in de world!,
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Err...abit out of point, but I get what you are driving at.Originally posted by sillyme:you never see kungfu movies meh?? all the shaolin monks start with sweeping before they start practising the real thing..
Let's face it...the army is all about rementation and dscipline. By taking good care of one's quarters is a very obvious reflection of one's self discipline and level of responsibility. It does not matter if other people from other bunks don't do it. I mean hey, if you keep your place clean you benefit from it, not others. In case the rest of you haven't noticed, nothing is fair in this world.
With reference to what sillyme has pointed out, as a martial artist myself for 4 years, the senseis and the seniors will always ask me to do things that I don't like or I felt that wasn't part of my training. Of course during the time I always complain it's not fair and stuff like taht. Later I found that what I was going through then, was what they went through before and what my juniors are going through now. So the cycle goes on...
Before you start lamenting how unfair your specs or officers have been treating you all. Think back and try to understand that they were recruits before before they became what they are now. They too went through the same 'ordeal' you did. So please stop complaining for some of you here. I said my piece
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Exactly man! some of us have heard stories or have personal memories of the Žl‘å“V–‚ of SISPEC ok!Originally posted by Seshiro:Before you start lamenting how unfair your specs or officers have been treating you all. Think back and try to understand that they were recruits before before they became what they are now. They too went through the same 'ordeal' you did. So please stop complaining for some of you here. I said my piece
and the uncles at the kopitiam near my place always complaining about the Israelis and the notorious "tiger" enciks in their camps last time...
now u have young punk chicken-$hits dissing area cleaning... sigh... -
Relax lah CX...Kids like us nowadays live the comfy life not many will be as crazy as me to go overseas to do martial arts and suffer...gone are the days moping the big dojo floor with only a piece of rag and water...
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10cm
I have never assume that SAF is full of good officers or specs. I acknowledge the fact that there are screwballs in there. But you on the other hand, seems to crap on continuously about the bad side, did you look at it objectively?
As to your OC conducting standby for your coy, good for him to do so. As to how he conduct his standby, it is his own decision and since I was not there, I can't comment on how he did it. He could be one of those screwball, and too bad for you.
Again, I am not interested about the fairness of your superiors and enlisted personel. I am pointing out to you a soldier's refusal to do area cleaning that irks me.
I did not assume that all parents are like that. I said there are some of them. Since when have I assume that all parents are like that? Please make sure you read through what I posted PROPERLY before you make any assumptions. Seems to me you never do. -
to me i c area cleaning as a form of discipline... tis makes u take gd care in watever u do... be it your bunk or the toilet used. if everything is done by commercial contractors everybody will be dependent on them jz like they depend on their mum or maid to do all the dirty work at hm. in saf it is suppose to teach servicemen to be independent and not be another king away from home...
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You mean a smart person who is able to strike out on his own and get an overseas degree in 2 years will not know how to take care of himself and his living surroundings? Do you need 2 years or more to learn how to clean up your own area then? Well, i don't. I'm used to living out alone and taking care of everything since started working in singapore alone when I was 20 years old. And do you need to go in the SAF to learn how to respect and considerate for your fellow man and goddamn Humility learning all the 4 letter words e.g. fu*k you, CB etc? Well, i don't but learn it all in my workplace.Originally posted by CX:WAH! what nonsense!
going by that logic, why bother throwing things in dustbins? government put them there without asking us what... so its THEIR problem, not ours... at most rats and cockroaches infest the streets and spread diseases only what...
in the same way, can just cross the road anywhere lah... why bother crossing at the zebra crossings? we never asked for it to be put there... at most cars run us over only what...
frankly, if an intelligent young man is able to strike out on his own and get his overseas degree in 2 years, why can't he clean up his own area?
if there's ONE thing many people my age are lacking, is the simple respect and consideration for his fellow man and goddamn HUMILITY.
smart enough to get a degree, but not smart enough to take care of himself and his living surroundings... SMART!!!
And mind you, what logic are you talking? It is the responsible of the government to take care of the street since they are paid to do it and not yours. You can try throwing rubbish around in singapore, but do it and don't get caught or else the government will get richer. you can cross the road anywhere you like, do it but don kill yourself of course.
It is no wonder the "No U-Turn Syndrome" theory applies only to Singaporean who are so obedient and conforming to whatever instructed without thinking. Well, maybe that's how the singapore government want to shape its citizen. To be the obedient best worker to attract foreign company. -
aiyo..cool it dude..i noe u have some problem wif the SAF..guess u been tekan too hard eh?Originally posted by MYPR:You mean a smart person who is able to strike out on his own and get an overseas degree in 2 years will not know how to take care of himself and his living surroundings? Do you need 2 years or more to learn how to clean up your own area then? Well, i don't. I'm used to living out alone and taking care of everything since started working in singapore alone when I was 20 years old. And do you need to go in the SAF to learn how to respect and considerate for your fellow man and goddamn Humility learning all the 4 letter words e.g. fu*k you, CB etc? Well, i don't but learn it all in my workplace.
And mind you, what logic are you talking? It is the responsible of the government to take care of the street since they are paid to do it and not yours. You can try throwing rubbish around in singapore, but do it and don't get caught or else the government will get richer. you can cross the road anywhere you like, do it but don kill yourself of course.
poor thing..come let Uncle Nathan sayang u..i give u welfare ok? welfare..i noe u smart lah..can learn how to clean up ur area by urself...so kiang gd boy....tot u dun like SAF but how come u use SAF 8thcore value as an example in ur last paragraph? "Do Anything u want But dun get caught" -
I think you are being childish with these kind of remark. As for what SAF 8th core value??? Is there such a value in SAF, i not the least interested.Originally posted by NathanG5:aiyo..cool it dude..i noe u have some problem wif the SAF..guess u been tekan too hard eh?
poor thing..come let Uncle Nathan sayang u..i give u welfare ok? welfare..i noe u smart lah..can learn how to clean up ur area by urself...so kiang gd boy....tot u dun like SAF but how come u use SAF 8thcore value as an example in ur last paragraph? "Do Anything u want But dun get caught" -
u have too much negative energyOriginally posted by MYPR:I think you are being childish with these kind of remark. As for what SAF 8th core value??? Is there such a value in SAF, i not the least interested.
i get wat u mean
but pple have diff opinions, and urs jus happen to differ from mine
but its okie, cos we all have to learn to live happily together
cheers -
Originally posted by MYPR:
of course not... thats exactly my point. if u're smart enough to get a degree, why aren't u smart enough to keep your area clean while in the Army? not as if we have a choice anyway... those with means could always choose to emigrate... the rest of us just do what we have to while we're here.
You mean a smart person who is able to strike out on his own and get an overseas degree in 2 years will not know how to take care of himself and his living surroundings? Do you need 2 years or more to learn how to clean up your own area then?Well, i don't. I'm used to living out alone and taking care of everything since started working in singapore alone when I was 20 years old.
good for you. i respect that.And do you need to go in the SAF to learn how to respect and considerate for your fellow man and goddamn Humility learning all the 4 letter words e.g. fu*k you, CB etc? Well, i don't but learn it all in my workplace.
yes. the SAF is a good place to learn all the above things u mentioned. four letter words, u learn everywhere... just observe the kids in the playground...
humility and respect for your fellow man is an important lesson which i think many has learnt in the SAF... and its not just the SAF... ask ANY former military man from ANY military in the world... they'll tell u the same thing. if u haven't been through it, i don't think its fair for u to comment on anyone's behalf.
now, i never said that SAF holds a monopoly on teaching people respect and humility... as u mentioned, u learnt it at work. so what's the problem here? i learnt it in the SAF. are u going to insult the memory of my experiences?And mind you, what logic are you talking? It is the responsible of the government to take care of the street since they are paid to do it and not yours.
yeah... they take care of the streets... but its not necessarily their problem should u disregard their measures... and if tax-payers never specifically said that they wanted a pedestrian crossing placed there, why should the gov't put one there?
REASON: they WANT to keep people SAFE from traffic. in the same way, National Service keeps the people SAFE from external threats.You can try throwing rubbish around in singapore, but do it and don't get caught or else the government will get richer. you can cross the road anywhere you like, do it but don kill yourself of course.
throwing rubbish everywhere is just plain uncivilised! its not about getting caught! its about doing the right thing.
and people jay-walk all the time... at most they'll just get run over and die right? without military defence, what's the worst that could happen? ah we'll just get invaded... no biggie... right?It is no wonder the "No U-Turn Syndrome" theory applies only to Singaporean who are so obedient and conforming to whatever instructed without thinking. Well, maybe that's how the singapore government want to shape its citizen. To be the obedient best worker to attract foreign company.
ha ha... u're taking that too seriously... sure, Singaporeans are some of the most boring people in the world... but to actually believe that they're obedient and conforming? if u're EVER an employer, u do that at your own peril...
its human nature to follow paths that are not too contary to one's interests. it inhibits entrepreneurial spirit, that i agree. but it doesn't make Sg workers any more "obedient" than any workers on the planet. passive resistance can take many forms and it can be very powerful... ask Gandhi...
so we're not very vocal and militant. so? does it help the matter if we were? NO! for every strike and riot u see in South Korea, the korean stock exchange goes into a tailspin... does that help? u tell me... -
I dun see doing area clean as a waste of time. It actually done, so that one have a cleaner place to stay.
How one see doing area cleaning depend on his bring up and the culture of the unit.
When I was in my unit, whenever I see my bunk is dirty I will start cleaning it with or without any standby. When my bunk mates see it, they also start doing it.... because they know a clean bunk = a comfortable living place... one is staying there for at least one year.
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NSF do alot of sia kang mah.Originally posted by gUms:If singapore goes to war , i think maybe we in trouble cos we spent more of our time doing area cleaning damn pissed off always area cleaning and is not like just 1 hr some time is like 2 to 3 hrs , think our army has de best sweepers in de world!, -
Originally posted by eskyzone:
totally agree... one of my bunkmates was allergic to dust. so we all help to keep the area clean so that it doesn't affect him. its about helping out your friends man! not about pleasing your encik or because u're ordered to do so!
I dun see doing area clean as a waste of time. It actually done, so that one have a cleaner place to stay.
How one see doing area cleaning depend on his bring up and the culture of the unit.When I was in my unit, whenever I see my bunk is dirty I will start cleaning it with or without any standby. When my bunk mates see it, they also start doing it.... because they know a clean bunk = a comfortable living place... one is staying there for at least one year.
agree! how can ANYONE tolerate living in a squalid pig-sty... -
I know instructors make use of stand-by area/bed to "tekan" those don't like.Originally posted by CX:agree! how can ANYONE tolerate living in a squalid pig-sty...
I think that's the main purpose of stand-by area.
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thats just sillyOriginally posted by fugue:I know instructors make use of stand-by area/bed to "tekan" those don't like.
I think that's the main purpose of stand-by area.
give yourself extra work over people u don't like...
that's why i'm not surprised that only instructors do it cos they got nothing better to do and trainees are easier to bully than men...
u go tell a sect-comm to conduct standby for no reason during lull period? where got time... they'll rather sleep... they also lan-lan kena from encik then they work one -
what you all talking about me in NS everyday i use a very big broom sweep sweep stones and dust inside a new HDB flat and use a spade and scope all the huge pile of stones and dust that i've swept and put on a wheelbarrow and dump it. You all just use a small f****** broom and talk much! I will be doint this for another 14mth. (Civil Defence Construction Vocational Training Wing Construction Brigade) <-thanks i love this country!!!!!!
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It is always tough to understand the purpose of everything or anything that is being asked of us to do, when we are stuck in active NS.
From charging up and down the hills, or one clearing enemy position from one hill top to the next; or sweeping big or small stones with big or small brooms, stand-by beds, washing toilets, cutting grass - they may all look stupid or crazy.
Once you are out of the two year or for some the extra half year, and when you look back, you will be wondering how you manage to have survived through all the bullying, the stupidity of all the muscle and bone breaking charging, running and marching.
Believe this, when you are alone in a trouble spot - like in Cambodia, when riot suddenly burst out without warning, you will appreciate every bit of training that you could still remember.
Such a situation can easily burst out even in a Tokyo subway, or in New York City, or even in Hamburg, or Rome.
In life, things will never work out the way you dream about, it is how you shape your mental attitude to changed environment that will make you a better person.
Shape the broom to make it sweep better.
Show that you are enjoying the pain that is given out to you, and soon enough either you break the instructor, or he breaks your spirit.
It is a challenge to find out your threshold, and if you live through it, you will have alot to talk about when you finished your two or half year more of NS.
When you have so much to talk about, it will not be such a waste of time. -
youngster these days cannot take even the smallest hardship.
Area cleaning also can make a mountain out of mole hill. I been through N.S life before too, there are all sort of people ( teaches us better on how to deal with diifferent people ). However i think n.s is not a waste of time. Instead it "sharpen" me and make lots of buddies in there.
From the thread accumulated, conclusion is that differents units different style of managements.
Some take good care of the men and spec, but left the junior officers ( poor guys ) to die ( my unit style ). That why we help our officer as much as we can.
some take gd care of spec and junior officer, but "kill" their men
( pray for them )
So there is no prefect solutions, ns is like a pre-preformance stage for us guys. We get to know and deal with situation from the experience from our n.s life.