so sad...
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Hi Stevenson101,
Not sure if there is an identity problem in your reference to XD and atobe.
Actually the quote that you referred to – concerning the valuation of land and roads, buildings and assets (fixed, unfixed, tangible and non-tangible) – is just part of the politics to obdurate, confound, confute, deflect and diverge the focus of the real intent of the request by the Elected President.
Even if one is unable to give the full comprehensive valuation of the roads, land, and buildings that form the National Assets, a Preliminary Report could at least present the available parts on a progressive basis, rather then provide an impression of stone-walling, and finally an impression of unwanted intrusion into oneÂ’s enshrined portfolio.
It is very unusual that the Government could have portrayed this impression to observers, and could not come up with several reports that can be consolidated when all parts are put together.
Even up to this day, many excuses have been offered, with the most ridiculous coming from the DPM-Finance Minister, who claimed that to publish the full asset values of our National Reserve, is tantamount to be giving any speculator the knowledge of the depth of our financial strength.
It would seem that the Elected President will not even get to know this value, let alone the Singapore Parliament; and both are supposedly the “Two-Key” Guardian to a National Reserves that has its value still being unknown.
It seems ridiculous that anyone will want to know the value of the roads and buildings that are built, as if one can get any money out of these being dug up and sold.
Unfortunately, Wee Kim Wee (a Reporter made good to be a Diplomat on the opinion of LKY) does not have the personal nature to face this daunting task of challenging an established system that is overseen by SM LKY.
The late Ong Teng Cheong was an Architect, and has the trained character to enquire and to challenge the established line of thought; and attempted to fulfill his role as an Elected President.
When the late Ong Teng Cheong requested for the information, the Administration is already more then Thirty Plus Years old; and has a reputation of making Singapore achieve an Asian Per Capita Income second only to Japan. Its reputation of being a Frist Class public financial administrator is world reknown.
With the passage of time, from your present reply to my last post, and the intervals between the long text of our presentation, I have lost the line of thought, and have no wish to read back into the many points stated; but will address the more important new issues that you have raised.
By focusing on one specific part of an issue, then bringing a judgment on the whole may not do justice to the multi-factted sides that are being championed by others.
Although Humanity may not have succeeded to wipe out “immorality” after two millenniums of effort, how do you wish to judge “Humanity” then, only by this attempt to wipe out immorality ?
Contrary to your statement that “although the Americans have gone through a lot of dead bodies…they have got it right”, there are still flaws or aberrations with the American System, with examples given by you. However, there remains a large degree of concern for Public Affairs and Politics from the citizens that are able to put their concern into demonstrative and affirmative action – without any fear by the Government towards its Citizens, and vice-versa.
Even in Germany, France, Spain, Italy, UK, most EU Countries, and now those East European Countries freed from the grasp of Communist Russia, political participation by their respective citizens are open and transparent.
This cannot be said of Singapore, where a Citizen can be involved in politics only if he expressly join a Political Party, or an approved Political Forum of some kind.
Their participation is watched over by the Internal Security Department, much like the KGB of the old Soviet Russia watching the independent thinking of the Soviet intellectuals.
Taking the line from another thread, which you had recently started, I would like to refer you to the fact that the Government had tried to encourage creativity from the Young, and to encourage one and all in business to “think out of the box”. There was a comment that “creativity” cannot occur in a disciplined (or perhaps closed) and guided environment. So I find it a bit difficult that in this thread you will believe that it is wiser to exert tight control.
Why must letting go lead to chaos ? This has always been the stand of the Government and its security apparatus in not allowing any kind of demonstration or public speech, or any kind of public criticism of the Government; as to do so, it will result in the opening of “Pandora’s Box”. This line has often been used as the reason for tight security control; and was used against some social workers from the Catholic Church (see my post on Life in the Little Red Dot).
Singaporeans are interested in politics, and most do huddle in the safety of their own homes and friends to talk politics; but none will extend their views freely to anyone for fear of exposure and being labeled by the Authorities (???).
Singapore joined Malaysia against the better judgment of others, who had a maturity of vision and experience from years of dealing with the Malay political leaders of Malaya; while Singapore leaders (LKY and his First Generation Team) only had limited exposure in their practical relationship with Malay Society in Malaya.
You were right to mention that joining Malaysia “was a decision made on consideration of personal survival” – I would add that the first generation PAP political leaders had to join Malaysia, (in their own words) as they were riding on the back of the Communist Tiger.
Unfortunately, “idealism” takes on many shades, and may not follow your interpretation that restricts it “for those who think doing this would result in a paradise on earth”.
It will depend on whose idealism it is based on, and if it is one of political idealism, or economic idealism, or and idealism of frivolous fantasy or romance. Here again, focusing on one part may not include the other parts.
Be what it may, idealism will be the spur to drive one’s action and energy towards its final goals – in the case of Singapore joining Malaysia, there were several that was mentioned in LKY’s memoirs; and there were other views of his true intention in his idealism in his headstrong effort to join Malaysia.
With leaders who think themselves as Creators and being smarter then the Citizens, and unwilling to consider the merits of other lesser mortals, more mistakes can only be made.
Compare the success of the Industrial Estate in Suzhou, China by Private Singaporean Businessmen, with the GIC funded Singapore-Suzhou Industrial Park, one can see the difference in the different practices in each organization that lead to differing results.
Despite the many quiet and cynical grumbling from Singaporeans, there is little that Singaporeans can do except to accept the fait accompli of whatever failures that the Government had allowed to be exposed.
Beyond the public explanations for the failed investments in Micropolis, and despite the grumbling and cynicism towards the explanations, what other course of actions can Singaporeans take? Demonstration? Public debate? Public Enquiry?
Had there been a balancing body of equal influence and support from the Public, much like the Senate and Congress in USA, or the Upper and Lower Houses of Parliament in UK, perhaps the Singapore Government can be held more accountable for some of the actions and decisions made.
Sometime towards the end of 2002, I made an observation that there are many hits and replies posted on many general topics that cover Malaysian-Singapore Politics, Sexy Bar Talk, Military Issues, and then the Gossips and Trivia; but there are no interest shown in any matters related to Politics, and much less when there are blunt criticism of the Singapore Government.
However, since then, I also noticed that although it seem that we are the only two persons to be posting our exchanges of views, there seem to be a daily increase in the number of “hits” to this thread,.
This shows that there is a strong undercurrent of interest in politics, but there are not so many participants who dare to offer their views – for some reasons that extend from political prudence in keeping one’s political opinion to oneself, to one of pragmatism, as they probably feel that as much as they will write, there will be little or no response. -
XD is merely an emoticon that i'm used to using. :p
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Hi CenturionMBT
You have hit the nail on the head with your comments on Singaporean attitude; but we need also to be fair to ourselves if we do not participate in the Government created SpeakerÂ’s Corner in a more active manner.
Consider the list of imposition and restrictions that are placed on anyone who intend to make a public speech at SpeakerÂ’s Corner, which itself is in an open space at Hong Lim Park.
In the middle of China Town and much nearer to the residential areas along Sago Lane, the noise of roadside CD stalls, and music from street acrobats are louder then a small Public Address system that a Speaker is allowed to use at Speaker's Corner - (if the Police can approve its use). This small P.A. system can be of the type used by those salesmen doing live product demo at Shopping Malls.
Unfortunately, no P.A. system of any kind is allowed, even when the nearest "open" residential block of any significance is at PeopleÂ’s Park Complex more then 800 meters away, and with the traffic noise (during the permitted operating hours of Speaker's Corner) being louder then any P.A. system.
However, as part of the Government’s attempt to frustrate or limit the impact of open dissension by Singaporeans at Speaker’s Corner, they will impose all kinds of restrictions with all kinds of reasons – from public security to public nuisance.
To be fair to most Singaporeans who have an opinion, or any opinions (good or bad) towards the Government and its policies, they all do so for the benefit of themselves, and by extension also for Singaporeans and Singapore.
The reason for all the banning of strikes, public dissension, public discussion, and for the suppression of effective opposing views, is all made out of the fear that a “Thinking Singaporean” will be harder to convince of some of the tougher policies that will restrict the Singaporean further.
The Government continue to ride on the principle of “Filling the Stomach, and Dull the Mind”, so as to allow them to continue to have a free hand to do whatever that pleases them to advance their own political positions in Singapore.
What is the cost of such actions ? The costs can be great to Singapore, when the Government do not answer to the People for mistakes made until these are publicly spotlighted to such an extent that they cannot be avoided. Some examples are the more prominent Micropolis investment debacle, and the Singapore-Suzhou Industrial Park nightmare. Then there are those who remain unknown – the purchase of Granite House in UK, the multiple failures in Silicon Valley with the amount never known.
These are public funds being managed by the GIC, which is made an independent corporate entity, outside the direct purview of the Government, so no need for its accounts to be brought into Public Audit as would any Government bodies.
On the surface, the Medishield, Medifund, are laudable schemes to further the interest of the CPF Account Holder, and intended specifically for Singaporeans.
However, these funds are limited to portions of the Medical Treatment that are approved, and the patient will still have to bear some parts of the medical cost in Cash.
These two schemes help the Singaporean to bear the increase in medical costs, but it simply does not address the issue that the Government does not fulfill its responsibility to bear the costs that it has created, and control the increase in Medical Costs.
With these two schemes in place, it is the Citizen that is bearing the major part of the cost, and with the cost being dictated by the Medical Administration, and partly by the Government.
Costs in all sectors of communal activities in Singapore – (let alone the Medical Costs, if we look at what Singaporeans are paying) - has largely been influenced by the high cost of land being artificially set by the Urban Redevelopment Authority.
We are not asking for “freebies” but a more reasoned approach in Government’s role in affecting the costs that affect daily activities of all Singaporeans.
This view is especially pertinent when the Government is omnipresent in all aspects in the life of Singaporeans.
The mark of the Government is everywhere – the SMRT, the bus services, taxi services, Supermarkets, the entire food chain on essential commodities, housing, land, fuel, and all daily necessities.
Can you blame the average Singaporean for depending entirely on the Government, when the Government itself has created this condition to allow them total control of the Singaporean Mind ?
“Fill the Stomach, and Dull the Mind”.
The problems will surface, when the Stomach becomes empty – as when the number of jobless will increase, and more expected by mid-2004 as advised by the PM and the NTUC Secretary-General.
Those who suffer silently, are those that have no avenues to voice their complains. They are the ones who have resigned themselves to their fate. There will be some who will take affirmative action to pull themselves from their seeming fate and move on with a more positive outlook.
Should we blame those who dare to voice themselves and speak the truth of their predicament ? -
XD this is becoming War of Vietnam No.2. I slowly respond, too lazy XD
Aiyah, most of my arguments are only my views and rarely backed up by hard evidence. Just say what you think and we can discuss about it what. At least get into the habit of speaking your mind! It's only a forum~
To both of you, as much as i would love to make a reply, I simply don't have any in depth knowledge to make a reasonable statement which could be backed by facts. All i could say, is this.
I'm only twenty, you can't be much younger than me!
I'd skip the part about your views on the National Reserve thing. Think the argument has come to the point where it's becoming speculation. I believe it's simple human laziness, you believe it's a conspiracy. Unless there's a direct confession of what exactly happened by an insider i doubt we'd really know who's right and who's wrong.
This attempt? I think you misunderstood me, i'm referring to the numerous attempts at creating a immoral free society. The Great Flooding, the darkages,inquisition, communism, facism and nazism are all examples of humanity's attempt at creating a pure, immoral free society. Most would also view this as being free because since we have no immorals, we wouldn't lust for anything else.
How i judge humanity? I judge humanity as having a long way to go. Far beyond the timespan of us, our children and their children before we can even catch a glimpse of what it means to be truly immoral free. And it can only be reached by taking it one step at a time.
They are able to as you say : able to put their concern into demonstrative and affirmative action without any fear by the Government towards its Citizens, and vice-versa.
But, is their society any better? You have legal systems that would allow a robber that rob your home to sue you and win. You have a murder rate of around 7.5 per 100,000. Sociopaths are the highest (To my knowledge) in america, there are numerous cases of students with guns shooting fellow classmates and teachers. They have under classes who could afford to do nothing about their lives because the government give them handouts. They have freedom, but at what cost?
Regarding politics i would refer you to the author of Stupid White Men. HIs publisher told him they wouldn't publish his books unless he change the name and fifty percent of the contents because it didn't match the current political climate. It's right at the introduction.
Given the populations of these countries, there's probably a lot more Stupid White Men cases that we've never heard of. But since there's so much open and transparent political paticipation, it's easy for them to be missed. I'd try to find some examples if i happen to come across them. But however, you are missing out the parts of these countries being far older than us and more familar with the idea of free speech than us.
KGB could tap phones, keep you tailed and make you vanish from the face of the earth. I don't think it's that serious "yet".
Though i recognize creativity as a positive thing i also recognize it also has a much darker side. So try to control or not to control? It's a difficult question. I don't claim to know the answer, i merely pick what i believe is a more cautious approach. I merely find amusement in people who claims that creativity is a force that can be brought out by disciplined control. It's contradictory.
I'm not sure where i've said tight control but my personal belief is that an amount of control is probably "advised" to make sure creativity doesn't take its darker side.
I didn't say it must result in chaos, i say it might. I just believe letting go just might not be as good as many would think.
I wouldn't go so far as to call LKY then arrogant or Creator, but rather he made a decision and stuck with it. Would you do any less?
Bush also had a lot of objections with his War on Iraq, but he stuck with it. Would you call that arrogance? You made a stand that the government is corrupt, would it be right for me to call you arrogant just because i couldn't convince you otherwise?
Without a stronger public response towards such mistakes it would be difficult to organise any demonstrations, public debate or public enquiry. I wouldn't say the government would suppress it, but there's just lacking of the proper person to head it.
I wouldn't know, because it never happened yet. So i would withheld my comments for now.
Rofl, people prefer sex to politics. It's sad in a way i would agree.
Well then, bring up more issues and let's keep people more aware of the little box they're in then.
If you did not critizise the government in such a direct manner i wouldn't have stepped up to speak my thoughts on it. Just the same as our debate is starting to drawining CenturionBMT in and hopefully more. Someone needs to be the leader and step out and show it's ok to say your thoughts on the government. This is what i mean that it takes time. We've only just begun to walk.
[EDITTED]: I found a more exact number of the murder rate in America, it's even more than the orginal 11,000. -
I am sure it is ok to talk freely. Otherwise, forums like remaking singapore and sgforums would have been closed down a long time ago.
However, the problem is that, nowadays, people like me, have no confidence to speak.It took me a great deal of thinking in order to type my previouse post.
Anyway,from your replies, i can say that there is no such thing as a perfect goverment or a perfect system
In every system, it has it pros and cons.
Look at Taiwan's democracy for example, while the country don't give them the iron grip, people dare to venture out and allow their ideas to flow.
Singapore on the other hand is entirely different.
The government set the rules and we follow like sheeps.
However when it comes to a disaster like sars, which government handled it better?
For taiwan, with their individual rights, everyone says that it is their rights not to put their lives in danger.That includes medical workers. So that is the cons of western interpretation of human rights. -
i don't know about all these stuff, but wad i do know is that,
you can't have a price rise in everything and a pay cut.
how can you have a pay cut and a rise in the living standard
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didn't the govt said that they wouldn't rise the gst? -
[quote]Originally posted by CenturionMBT:
I am sure it is ok to talk freely. Otherwise, forums like remaking singapore and sgforums would have been closed down a long time ago.
However, the problem is that, nowadays, people like me, have no confidence to speak.It took me a great deal of thinking in order to type my previouse post.
Tell me about it, I'm considered among the most outspoken among my groups of friends, but I find it seemingly difficult to articulate a reply here that looks coherent (to me)
Guess its easier for me to speak than type
Anyway,from your replies, i can say that there is no such thing as a perfect goverment or a perfect system
In every system, it has it pros and cons.
Look at Taiwan's democracy for example, while the country don't give them the iron grip, people dare to venture out and allow their ideas to flow.
Singapore on the other hand is entirely different.
The government set the rules and we follow like sheeps.
However when it comes to a disaster like sars, which government handled it better?
For taiwan, with their individual rights, everyone says that it is their rights not to put their lives in danger.That includes medical workers. So that is the cons of western interpretation of human rights.
Actually my opinion is that it is not democracy and civil liberties that bedevilled Taiwan during the SARS crisis. The problem was that the Taiwanese themselves did not have the maturity or responsibility to use those freedoms wisely. I would hazard to think that a more "mature"(in terms of age) democracy would react better, although there will always be idiots who will abuse that system. After all, a wise man once said, "Theres one born every minute"
So are Singaporeans mature enough to handle the more democracy and freedoms? I fear not. However that does not mean we should not loosen up, for if we don't, we will never find that level of maturity and responsibility to use those freedoms. When that day comes that Singapore starts loosening up (I dare say it has already though VERY slowly) it'll start with a lot hiccups much like Taiwan but we'll get there.
IMO maturity and responsibility to handle individual liberties can only come AFTER those liberties are given, without those liberties the maturity will not come about -
Given the incidents mentioned by Atobe, i wouldn't be surprised if the owner of sgforums or the moderator would receive an email asking either tighter moderation or a total shutdown.
I am sure it is ok to talk freely. Otherwise, forums like remaking singapore and sgforums would have been closed down a long time ago.
Remember, the people in the government now is pretty old fashioned and still know little about the power of the internet.
Not to say the entire government has the same view, but it's always hard to predict how people would react.
This is why i believe democracy is not for everyone and when implemented, it should be implemented slowly. Not everyone would use the rights given by democracy wisely
Actually my opinion is that it is not democracy and civil liberties that bedevilled Taiwan during the SARS crisis. The problem was that the Taiwanese themselves did not have the maturity or responsibility to use those freedoms wisely. -
Yes you're right, but I also believe that it is not an excuse not to loosen up, or even slow it down to a crawl.Originally posted by Stevenson101:This is why i believe democracy is not for everyone and when implemented, it should be implemented slowly. Not everyone would use the rights given by democracy wisely
I see positive signs, but change is proceeding too slowly and certain people are too entrenched in their ways.
But then, its just my opinion -
The Americans have been trying for the past few hundred years and they still get idiots abusing democracy.
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Hi Stevenson101,Originally posted by Stevenson101:The Americans have been trying for the past few hundred years and they still get idiots abusing democracy.
In any settings, there will be all types and shapes that will either set the pace of change, or those who will retard it, or those who will act as spoilers.
There will also be those who will take every opportunity to entrench themselves, and defend the foothold that they have managed to gain, and become very defensive and sensitive to any challenge to their position.
In a mature environment, tolerance and the ability to suffer the fools of all types is what that separates the Real First World inhabitants, from those who try so hard to be First World Citizens but still keeping a Third World Mind of "animal politics". -
Frankly, i don't see how Third world our country's politics really is. Third World politics is too general a term and normally associated with dictatorship. And dictatorship is normally maintained with violence and propaganda. You don't see secret police dressed in black patrolling the streets do you? Or loud speakers proclaiming how magnificent the PAP is?
I got this phrase from an american forum, it was posted by a student studying political science i believe.
Not refined speech but you get the basic idea.
Unless everything sucks so bad that massive amounts of people are pissed here, I don't see GWB losing in '04. Really has nothing to do with the Democrats, they could put up a guy who could get a tiger to eat tofu, while speaking chinese and convincing Kim Jong'Ill to step down and democratize N. Korea and STILL lose. The reason why?
Incumbents always have the advantage in elections. When everything is good and happy there tends to be lower concern and lower voter turn out and those who do vote tend to be the people who like the guy in office. Only when everything is in the crapper do you have lots of mobilization and interest and usually that interest is towards kicking the incumbent out.
How is this first world? Is it really as squeaky clean as you think it is? The only difference really between first world and third world politics is that the weapons and ammunition is different. Third world use knifes and guns while first world use words and secrets.
[Edit] Took the second world comment away, too little sleep is evil =.= . -
what's the point of having an election if half the population chooses not to vote?
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In the order of nature, there will be groups and sub-groups, and further break-down of the sub-groups; be it a classification of DNA, or social groups, or work groups, or the types of classification of any living or non-living things.
Light and shadow also come in various strength and shades.
Even in the classification of First, Second or Third World Politics or Life Style, there are nuances in strengths and weaknesses; as can be seen in the different practices and beliefs of the manner in which “First World Politics” are practiced in USA, from that of France, Germany, U.K., Holland, and even in Japan.
By borrowing the “phrase” from an American Forum - (so as to arrive at your view that there is little difference in politics between the First and Third World), will be as good as to say that there is no difference between a German built Car from one made in Korea – simply due to the fact that you get hopeless drivers in Germany as you will find in Korea.
How can this be ?
The Third World type of Politics as practiced in Singapore may not take the extremities as that of the practices of assassination in African Politics, nor the “black clad secret police” patrolling the street.
Will you accept a variation of it, in the form of xenophobic methods used in character assassination of Politicians in the Opposition Camp, and the “plain clothes Internal Security Police” that come knocking at your door at 02.00 hours (if you are a Government employee and decide to stand for election in the Opposition Camp).
Whatever the Ruling Party Members does is always above the law, while whatever the Members of the Opposition Party do is always questionable and open to prosecution.
Visit the post “Life in the ‘Little Red Dot’ – In the Eye of the Storm” – for a first hand read of the Third World Politics as practiced in Singapore by our Political Leaders who claim to be Citizens of a Singapore that has attained First World status.
The level of Third World mentality in “kiasuism” - as practiced by the Ruling Party during election - can be seen from the redrawing of the election boundaries that merge communities (which gave strong support to Opposition Parties in previous elections) with those that have given strong support to the Ruling Party.
This is to dilute those Opposition votes, so as to prevent any further strengthening of more votes to the Opposition.
Singapore must be the only country that practice such frequent redrawing of the election boundaries that can merge Marine Parade to Jalan Besar; which result in a non-sensical sign board at the start of Jalan Besar that reads “Welcome to Marine Parade Constituency”. -
By that same token, whats the point of having an election if half the population who are eligible to vote "need not" vote?Originally posted by nismoS132:what's the point of having an election if half the population chooses not to vote?
I've been eligible to vote in the last 2 elections, yet I've never voted in my life. The first time, my constituency, having been known in the past as a hotbed for opposition votes, was amalgamated into a GRC.
The 2nd time, being overseas to study, I was ineligible to vote as for some reason, the government backtracked on earlier promises to allow overseas Singaporeans to vote. Which was moot, as my home was now part of a "super GRC" which the opposition was not contesting in again. But the point is, why are overseas Singaporeans not allowed to vote? Are they 2nd, or even 3rd class citizens because they happen not to be in Singapore at the time?
I know whats going to happen, people are now going to tell me that its the oppositions fault because they're weak, they're divided, they're incompetents. Maybe so, but how much of it is their own doing, and how much was due to the shifting of the electoral goalposts?
Its just a personal opinion, but I think it's high time to switch to a proportional representation voting system or at least demolish the GRC system. But like thats going to happen -
this topic is realli long man haha
but to bear : i agree with you
partially though
he may be an idealist BUT all things starts from ideas
however as the world idealistic implies, things changes
ideas form the baseline and give the direction but all roads have obstacles and if u were to be so rigid as to bash straight ahead for the ideal then, that wud be called stubborn or as stevenson101 said an idealist but again, everything starts with an ideal
hmmz like all things, there must always be balance. a little here and a little there and whala the world turns
as to the population being immature... i tink so too.......
but then whats being mature? thats also a question isnt it?
as far as i can see this is becoming a debate and then it will be something that will never end... we all have different opinions and i tink its great that we are all here to share them
but realli agree or disagree some form of credit shud be given (as long as its a feasible and sensible opinion anyway)
y nobody participate ar??
hahha perhaps because the posts are all so long~?!??!
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All things start from ideas yes, but humans mentally speaking are so naturally lazy(Myself included) they refuse to move on from the ideal and go about on how it works. They unrealistically like to hold on to the perfection of the idea but never gave thought to whether it's feasible or not.
THAT is the reason why Hitler, a mere artist could create Nazi Germany. Why Mao Tze Tong, a mere peasant could create Communist China and how Joesph Stalin, a gangster, poorly educated could defeat Trotsky, argumentatively a genius and make the powerful Soviet Union.
Humans, sadly respect only passion and not intelligence and wisdom. I'm sure you can tell from the popularity of the Bars Forum compared to the other forums would prove my point more than adequately. -
i think that is sooo unfair to the countless ppl who have made this country work, right from the start when we declared independenceOriginally posted by Stevenson101:All things start from ideas yes, but humans mentally speaking are so naturally lazy(Myself included) they refuse to move on from the ideal and go about on how it works. They unrealistically like to hold on to the perfection of the idea but never gave thought to whether it's feasible or not.
THAT is the reason why Hitler, a mere artist could create Nazi Germany. Why Mao Tze Tong, a mere peasant could create Communist China and how Joesph Stalin, a gangster, poorly educated could defeat Trotsky, argumentatively a genius and make the powerful Soviet Union.
Humans, sadly respect only passion and not intelligence and wisdom. I'm sure you can tell from the popularity of the Bars Forum compared to the other forums would prove my point more than adequately.
of coz humans are naturally lazy... but realli.... wud things have come this far if everyone was as bad as u said???
the figures that u sited are but a few and they were the initiators in times of turmoil.. ppl then were looking for something different... another hope perhaps and so i guess they were tricked.. then again perhaps they din have much of a choice??
moreover, how would you know that something will not work out until u have tried? this is called passion... but if it becomes obvious that things are not going to work out and the person still plods on then he is blind and so are the ppl who follow him.....
passion doesnt mean blindness u know
without passion alot of things wouldnt be the way they are now
how many died in the american revolution? during the war did the ppl respect the passion or did they see the wisdom behind it?
how wud u know??
so was it a matter of passion or wisdom?! -
i think that is sooo unfair to the countless ppl who have made this country work, right from the start when we declared independence
Unfair? Unless you consider the hard facts being thrown in the face unfair.
of coz humans are naturally lazy... but realli.... wud things have come this far if everyone was as bad as u said???
Humans are naturally lazy yes, but there are also people that realizes the flaw in their thinking and seek to remedy it. These are the people who makes things work. Most, however do not. They are so afraid of the unknown they would gladly blind themselves for it.
At the begining they had the choice. The people voted for Hitler, even though his speechs contained only passion and little concrete remedies on helping Germany. What did they do when the Jews were all rounded up and sent to the death camps? Nothing.
the figures that u sited are but a few and they were the initiators in times of turmoil.. ppl then were looking for something different... another hope perhaps and so i guess they were tricked.. then again perhaps they din have much of a choice??
They knew it was wrong to slaughter people like that but they did NOTHING. As long as they keep the jobs and the Jews were no longer competing for business they were happy.
The Bolsheviks didn't questioned Stalin for his purging and his policies. Worst, they felt that murdering their country from the inside was insignificant to maintaining the image of the Party.
They chosed Stalin to lead because he was the one that talked to them over vodka and got to know them. Not because he was a good leader, he was just good with his people skills.
Mao Tze Tong and his wife kept Deng Xiao Ping under house arrest and said he was a traitor to the Party. What happened to Deng Xiao Ping after Mao died and his wife arrested?
He laid the foundation that led to Communist China to being a world power
I named these few because their reign was the bloodiest. There are also lesser examples like Cuba, Potpot(Forgot the name!...etc.And don't forget the fools that placed these blood suckers in power in the first place. I would hardly call them a few.moreover, how would you know that something will not work out until u have tried? this is called passion... but if it becomes obvious that things are not going to work out and the person still plods on then he is blind and so are the ppl who follow him.....
There lies in the problem, when that something has been tried and it was growing more and more plain it was a terrible idea the people who knew it kept quiet and didn't cared. They kept thinking that the people that died was a small price to pay for prosperity. They refuse to think otherwise.
So what if they're blind, no one dared to do anything!
Unfortunately passion does mean blindness most of the time.
passion doesnt mean blindness u know
without passion alot of things wouldnt be the way they are now
how many died in the american revolution? during the war did the ppl respect the passion or did they see the wisdom behind it?
The american revolution? Need i remind you the North/South Civil war followed after that? All because one side wanted slaves for their cotton fields and the other didn't want to. And how the senate started passing laws oppressing the Indians on their own lands and their own country.
Should i also mention that senators were paying troops money for the ear and scalps of indians? Of how tribes were slaughtered while being escorted to the protectorate? And how tribes had to accept Christianity if they didn't want to be massacred?
The revolution gave men the right to wield guns and the passion to shoot anyone with it.
Ask an American if the Revolution was a good thing and they would say yes. Ask an indian?how wud u know??
Yes, perhaps the american revolution was a good thing. But that doesn't discount the fact that hundreds of people who wasn't even fighting for the English had to die for it.
so was it a matter of passion or wisdom
Just the same as although the Americans did a good thing by removing Saddam that doesn't discount the fact that they did killed thousands to achieve it. -
Now you see, if i started to bash the government or someone for the mistakes they've done i'd get a lot of people agreeing with me
(As evident from the Contradiction, Xiao Long Nu and Pretty Lousy Example posts and from the popularity of the Chinese in Singapore and Paradise posts.) Even people who knew nothing of what's happening in the world and just agree because it's "fashionable" to do so.
Hatred is far more easier to stomach. And don't give me bull about it's only Singapore, go to any country and praise the government you get people laughing at you.
If you try to speak reason and explain the underlying reasons for undesirable governmental policies you'd be ignored.
But when you go there spreading hate people are more than willing to follow you. -
Why so sad and lament about the situation that you have encountered ?
The subjects that you have posted in “Contradiction”, “Xiao Long Nu” and “Pretty Lousy Examples” have certainly drawn a lot more attention than serious political issues, as I would think that they are the issues encountered in daily living.
I would not go to the extreme of labeling the criticisms leveled at the Government as “Hatred”, but more to the level of pent up frustrations at the “high handed actions" from the Government.
Consider that the Acting Minister of Labor objected to the Economic Remaking Committee’s proposal of allowing the Jobless Singaporeans to utilize their CPF funds during their period of unemployment – this objection was raised in Parliament by the Minister, despite the fact that he IS an active member of the ERM Committee who put up this suggestion.
Consider the arrogant remarks from the DPM that “it is not that the Government do not consider any suggestions put up by the various Economic Remaking Committees, and that they have left no stones unturned; it is just that the stones were carefully placed back in their original positions” – leaving the matters at status quo.
In layman’s term: “it is all wayang”.
Why even bother to make any effort to defend the Government on their skewered policies towards its own Citizens ?
Will you defend their misguided policies towards the members of the Catholic Church who were accused of being underground Communist Cell members – putting them in the same category as those J.I. people arrested under the same Internal Security Act ?
There were more hard material evidence that the Government was able to produce against the J.I. members, than the Government had against those prominent social workers from the Church - who were political activists (in their private lives) working against the Ruling Party (not the Government of Singapore).
Credit has always been given to the Government when due, but as much as the Government is prepared to seek the blessing from the Citizenry, they will also get the brickbats for their skewered policies that have been hampering the growth of the Citizens for so many years – which have now been confirmed by the various Economic Remaking Committees that identified so many sacred cows that need to be slaughtered.
At least in other countries, the workers get a chance to strike, and the people is allowed to gather to protest the dubious decisions made by their Governments – as in the Citizens of USA, UK and Australia now questioning the veracity of the Intelligence Reports that led these Government to decide to wage war against IRAQ.
The Singapore Government was so nervous about any kind of protests, that they will not even allow dolls to be placed at the SpeakerÂ’s Corner as a demonstration of the politics in Singapore; (after much quibbling and over some long periods of discussions, the Police relented).
This is the pathetic situation in Singapore, where the control of the Government and the Ruling Party is pervasive, into every aspect of SingaporeanÂ’s life.