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malaysian colonel advise poisoning water as a means to threa

tripwire
10 Oct 01, 21:23

First... i wish to thank the malaysian colonel.... in fact... i think all singaporeans should thank him.. this colonel could actually end up being the saviour of singapore...

By such a suggestion.... he certainly helps to alert singapore govt over the possibility of such an attack.... and indirectly help us to buck up and pay more attention to the future of biological and chemical warfare.

in fact... his suggestion couldnt have been more timely.... with terrorist on the loose and americans living in perpetual fear of such a attack... as a city state of high population density... such an attack on singapore will effectively destroy us without a single round being fired.

THE SAF has been too complacent in dealing against such a threat... and our C2P govt went to sign that treaty which bans us from developing, making, possesing and using biological and chemical weapons.... GOD help us!!

BUT.... i think if a few outbreak should occur across malaysia due to 'divine' intervention.... who can say??

SO... dont look at the colonels statement negatively.... in fact... dont even be bother about the malaysian idea.... if push come to shoves... who would give a damn about treaties....

IF malaysia poison our water... no problem... we can poison theirs...

But usually,.... nations would avoid using such weapons irregardless how desperate the situation becomes... as examplified by WW2 where both allies and axis forces never used such weapons despite possesing them....

The belief is that.... as long as i dont use it.... they will not use it.....

But such a belief is based on the assumption that both nation are capable of such a capability..... is singapore capable of such a offensive?
Shotgun
10 Oct 01, 22:50

When the United States pledged that it would stop developing Biological/Chemical weapons, they decided to let someone else do it for them. Who do you think is developing these weapons for them?

We'll see whose poison is more lethal.
eye
11 Oct 01, 10:54

Dear Tripwire,

Kindly tell me more about this report of the Malaysian Colonel's suggestion. I must have missed it in my readings of verious news from Sg and Malaysia.

Reading through what are posted in some of the other threads, I see a common trend whereby people getting worked up on things that are sometimes based on opinions,half truth or totally false. No attempt is made to diffrentiate between facts and opinion.

Since you have posted a pretty controversial post that will definitely have a lot responses, I think you should make it clear where this info comes from and whether it is the official view of MAF or the private mutterings of an indiv in the MAF. And also if you whether this colonel is of any signif. in the MAF.

Personal Opinion:

Those who use bacterial & chem and attack civil. indiscriminately will lose the war. The advantage for using them is enjoyed only by their opponent. No reason for any armed forces to use something that will only lead to their defeat.

Wars are won by those who have the moral ground.Those who do not have moral ground might win the big battles but will either be locked up in a perpetual war against an enemy who refuse to admit defeat (due to their moral ground)or eventually be forced to concede defeat or retreat by its own ppl or troops.

Originally posted by tripwire:
First... i wish to thank the malaysian colonel.... in fact... i think all singaporeans should thank him.. this colonel could actually end up being the saviour of singapore...

By such a suggestion.... he certainly helps to alert singapore govt over the possibility of such an attack.... and indirectly help us to buck up and pay more attention to the future of biological and chemical warfare.

in fact... his suggestion couldnt have been more timely.... with terrorist on the loose and americans living in perpetual fear of such a attack... as a city state of high population density... such an attack on singapore will effectively destroy us without a single round being fired.

THE SAF has been too complacent in dealing against such a threat... and our C2P govt went to sign that treaty which bans us from developing, making, possesing and using biological and chemical weapons.... GOD help us!!

BUT.... i think if a few outbreak should occur across malaysia due to 'divine' intervention.... who can say??

SO... dont look at the colonels statement negatively.... in fact... dont even be bother about the malaysian idea.... if push come to shoves... who would give a damn about treaties....

IF malaysia poison our water... no problem... we can poison theirs...

But usually,.... nations would avoid using such weapons irregardless how desperate the situation becomes... as examplified by WW2 where both allies and axis forces never used such weapons despite possesing them....

The belief is that.... as long as i dont use it.... they will not use it.....

But such a belief is based on the assumption that both nation are capable of such a capability..... is singapore capable of such a offensive?
wave
11 Oct 01, 15:12

There's an article in the Straits Times (dated 9th October 2001) which described about a Malaysian Lt-Colonel who write comment on using water as a kind of strategic weapon to counter S'pore military superiority. Below is the full-content of the article described in Straits Times. Any comments?

-----------------------------------
An article in a Malaysian Armed Forces College journal has called on Malaysia to use water as a 'strategic weapon' to 'counter Singapore's military advantage'.

Written by a lieutenant-colonel who used to be with the Royal Malay Regiment - the Sultan of Johor's military arm - and who is now with the Malaysian Army headquarters in Kuala Lumpur, the article argued that because water is of 'fundamental, primary interest' to the city-state, Malaysia should be 'more forceful' in controlling its supply to the Republic.

Lt-Col Azmy Yahya wrote: 'As 'owner' of the precious resource, Malaysia must make full use of this advantage as leverage over Singapore to ensure limited room for Singapore to manoeuvre, and to reduce the incentive for Singapore to use its military superiority as leverage to threaten Malaysia.'

Noting that the existing water agreements, signed in 1961 and 1962, had very long time frames, he said: 'Malaysia should have the will to pressure or make known to Singapore that it will not hesitate to review the agreements if Singapore is not sensitive, or if it continues patronising Malaysia in any way that would affect bilateral relations.'

He added: 'Malaysia has to be more forceful in controlling water supply to Singapore.'

Lt-Col Azmy's remarks were in an article analysing water as a factor in international relations. It appeared in Strategi, the Malaysian Armed Forces' annual journal, recently.

Noting that international law offered little help in resolving water conflicts, he cited how shared water resources in the Middle East, Central Asia and South Asia had led to tension, and in some cases to violence, as in Kyrgzstan, where a dispute in 1990 cost 300 lives.

He focused most attention on the Singapore-Malaysia situation, where, he reasoned, historical animosities were unlikely to pass even with the passing of first-generation leaders, because younger Malaysian leaders 'have learnt the utility of harnessing anti-Singapore sentiment for personal political gain'.

He said the existing agreements were seen by many quarters in Malaysia as unfavourable to Malaysia, because while Singapore bought raw water from Johor at three sen (1.4 Singapore cents) for every 4,500 litres, it sold treated water back at 50 sen for the same amount.

The current water review is appropriate if it results in terms more favourable to Malaysia, he said. But he also pointed out that 'it cannot be taken for granted that Malaysia will continue to accede to Singapore's appetite for more water'.

The new price of water is among the issues Singapore and Malaysia are still haggling over. The negotiating range is between 45 and 60 sen per 4,500 litres.

Noting a 'clear need' to resolve the water issue, Lt-Col Azmy assessed that one option open to Malaysia if Singapore decided to use its military strength to ensure its water supply was to 'pollute the supply with either chemical or biological agents'.

This should be done only as a last resort, and it could also be 'morally wrong', but it was Malaysia's right to defend its sovereignty if Singapore took the path of military aggression, he said.

In the meantime, he said, Singapore must introduce more confidence-building measures. The current ones, in the form of the Five Power Defence Arrangements and the joint military exercises, must be expanded to ties at the personal level.

Singapore's leadership must also take more care with the bilateral relationship. 'There is a need for them to be less patronising and more sensitive, and to accord Malaysia the respect it deserves,' he said.
eye
11 Oct 01, 20:00

Dear Wave,

Thank you for the article.

First and for most I will make it clear my personal view is that the use of poison is not a military option regardless of how dire the situation becomes.

Without seeing the actual article itself (ie the one in Strategi, anyone out there have it?), and based solely on what was written in the Straits Times, I strongly condemn the suggestion of the lt. colonel for using poison for strategic advantage. I also strongly oppose to his suggestion that we should review the water agreement everytime there is a dispute between the two countries.

A review should only be initiated when there is an unjust or unequal situation due to changes in circumstances (which could happen during the long period covered by the agreement). Even then it must be done in a spirit of goodwill.

I am however very interested in reading the actual Strategi article itself to establish the following:

1) Was the article mainly about a formal suggestion to MAF on the use poison as a strategic weapon (as insinuated by the opening line of the ST article), or was the idea mentioned as an extreme example as part of a wider general discussion on the problem of water in international relations (as mentioned in para 6 of the ST arti).

2) Was the lt.colonel discussing about the idea of using threats of poison as part of being forceful with singapore OR was he discussing two VERY seperate points that is:

i) Malaysia must have the willingness to be firm in its discussion on water as the agreements are long term in nature and that it is also a precious resource for the country to (i.e. there is a serious need for water in the country too)

and

ii) If the issue is not resolved,in event of amilitary confrontation, then Malaysia might have to consider (as a last resort) the option of using poison.

It is also interesting to note that for a menacing article where the author is suggesting the use of poison against Singapore, the very same author is also suggesting:

i) that the water issue must be resolved quickly,
ii) more confidence building measures must be built between both countries and
iii) the act of using poison is morally wrong.

Therefore, was the author really suggesting the use of poison as an option(?) or was he using it as an extreme example of something that must never happen(?) or are we talking about a really confused lt.Colonel here? (no wonder some two bit corporal managed to act as a high ranking officer and steal some of the MAF weapons!)

It is important to establish all the above by reading the article in order to ensure that the context of the what the Lt. Col. wrote was taken correctly.

THe process of paraphrasing and rarrangement of what was writen might change a harmless article on "Problems of water in International relations" into something as menacing as "MAF is considering the use of Poison against SG!".

Until I read the original article itself I would nt know.

If you detect a hint of cynicism against the ST report, than you are right.

Every time I read what the main press of Mal and Sg write about the 'other' country, I always take it with a pinch of salt. The fact is, to villify the other country is desirable.

For Mal, it helps shift the attention from internal politics to an external entity.

For Sg, a menacing bogeyman in the form of Malaysia that is constantly present provides a strong motivation for its ppl to stick to the entity called SINGAPORE (and not forget about it/leaving it after achieving personal economic success).

Anyway, I think (this is my opinion and perception) poison it has never been an option considered by the MAF.

If you analyse the trends in terms of training, doctrine & strategy adopted and placement of assets for the defence of southern malaysia, the use of poison does not fit into the picture.

The use of poison also doesnt make sense as most of the water used by the ppl (incl the soldiers and their families) of the southern states have to come through Singapore.

And as I said in my earlier post, the war is won by those with the moral highground. Why do something that would guarentee you losing the war?

If it is true that the colonel was qouted in the right context, than I for one would feel very ashamed that a member of MAF had even considered it and I apologise to Singaporeans for it.

But, If it was taken out of context, then i must say ST have successfully hit malaysia again using the right words (Royal Malay Regiment, former Sultan of Johore Priv Army member, Poison) and timing (war against terrorism). We are at your service to serve as a constant bogeyman to Singaporeans (even after SAF have acquired the ability to beat us a few times over) and to remind foreigners how lucky they are to be doing business in wonderful Sg (and not that awful place call Malaysia!)

Should I offend anyone with the above, i apologise. What i look for is people to critically think about things. I do not mean or wish to insult anyone.

Rgds,

EYE

(P.S. If im not mistaken, the private army of the Sultan of Johor was called by some other name like Askar Setia Johor or something like that and not the Royal Malay Regiment (RMR). The RMR is a regiment still in existance. It was created in the 1930's by the Brits, maintained for its long established history & traditions and WAS NOT specially created by Malaysian leaders in order to keep out the non malays from the army as some would like us to believe. Look into The Royal Ranger Regiment if you want to see proof of non malays in combat units. If the non malays were really given inferior weapons, there would nt be any Ranger battalions in our Para brigade or the Mechanised brigade. Inferior weapons are spread througout MAF in both Ranger and Royal Malay Regiments because of the Army's relatively small budget)

[This message has been edited by eye (edited 11 October 2001).]
Shotgun
12 Oct 01, 18:12

Eye.

I don't know where you are from, but please read the previous post again.

The Lt. Col, was suggesting Malaysia to use "water" to gain leverage against Singapore. He was hinting that poisoning the water would be the last resort to gain that leverage against SG.

Ultimately, no matter what you say, it is the main point. Please do not think that Singaporeans will take this threat lightly. Should we even smell such an attempt, it will legally warrant us pre-emptive strikes in self-defense under international-laws.

Singapore is pretty much a peaceful country, preferred to be left alone. However, we have the ability to remove hindrance to our prosperity. Do not doubt that.
tripwire
12 Oct 01, 19:34

Thanks wave for presenting the article....

I must admit... the threat is far real then immaginery..... during my service with the military.... we already knew that malaysia has the ability to conduct chemical warfare...

In fact.... malaysia is one of the few country in the world that sign the treaty on international ban on chemical weapon WITH RESERVATION!!! other nations of south east asia including singapore, thailand and others sign the agreedment together with hundreds of other nations sign without reservation.

could malaysia's reservation be due to their desire to deter others OR to use such weapons as last resort???

as a city state.... the threat of biological and chemical warfare cannot be underestimated.... a small outbreak of FMD in singapore among the toddlers a few years back... showed beyond a doubt the stress and damage such an outbreak could bring to singapore in economic, military, political, social and pyschological impact.... in the event of an intentional attack..... the TOtal defence concept could crumbled without a single bullet being fired...

when nipah broke out in malaysia.... malaysia was nearly crippled as well.... the damage brought by the virus can still be seen by the continuing ban of malaysia pork around the world including singapore.... had the nipah virus been more virulent towards human.... malaysia could literary disappear with the depopulation of its citizens.

the problem here is that.... that lt col of MAF is a moron to even suggest such a move.... indeed... in the worst situation... singapore could be neutralised and defeated easily... but the consequence would be dire for malaysia as singaporeans how has lost everything would seek to strike back at malaysia with its own biological or chemical weapons..... with devastating effect on malaysia, the region and the world itself..... so.... DONT BE STUPID ASS LAH... TMD..... moronic brain like that also can be LT COL in MAF.... hope the generals in MAF got more grey matter....
eagle
12 Oct 01, 20:52

They need not juz poison the water. They can well bomb the pipeline and blame the terrorists for that, or for some other stupid reason that they can think of.

------------------
Thomas Edison definition of genius :
"1% inspiration, 99% perspiration"
tripwire
13 Oct 01, 21:17

Originally posted by eagle:
They need not juz poison the water. They can well bomb the pipeline and blame the terrorists for that, or for some other stupid reason that they can think of.

FOR EVERY ACTION.... there will be an equal and opposite REACTION....

DEAR mahatir.... i thank you for your condolonces over the bombing of my country's water supply..... likewise.... allow me to express the same condolences over the unfortunate collapse of your petronas tower...
Shotgun
14 Oct 01, 00:18

WAHAHHAHAHAAHHAHA.

But still, life has been lost. That fact wont change no matter who strikes back.
eye
14 Oct 01, 18:12

Dear Shotgun,

I think you might miss what I am trying to say in my post.

First of all, as a Malaysian, I view threat of Bac & Chem weapons very seriously. I strongly oppose to its use and that no matter how bad our military situaton might be, it must never be used. it must not even mentioned.

My second point is this, before everyone starts to get worked up and wished for lots of malaysians to die, curse our armed forces and our leaders (like what have happened in most threads), all of us must get the facts rights first. We must get a copy of the original article written by this lt. Col. and see what he was actually writing about.

If he was really suggesting the use of chemical as a viable means of defence, then by all means go and condemn him and him alone. It is his personal view an not the view of Malaysian, MAF or our leaders.

Shogun,

At no point did I ask Singaporeans to take the issue lightly. It is a serious issue. Because of its seriousness our facts must be right. Because of its seriousness it is not something to be mentioned as a means to frighten either your 'opponents' or your own people as a means of control.

Singaporeans must understand that militarily, Malaysia poses no threat to Singapore. Your armed forces are far superior. This is not some sort of propaganda to make you guys complacent. It has been verified by many external parties who have compared the relative strenght of our armed forces (an even Tripwire, the forums in house 'expert')

Therefore,if this is the case, whatever disagreement or disputes we have between the two countries will be resolved politically.

Just because we object or disagree on a few things, it is not a basis for Sg to wield its armed forces as a stick to get Mal agreement. Similarly, for the idiot politicans on our side, just because Singapore disagree or object on a few points, there is no reason to threathen them with the cutting of water supply so that they will agree.

Before you accuse of Malaysia trying to hinder Singapore's prosperity and start to wield the military stick, please try to understand what we disagree or object. Malaysia and Singapore's prosperity is tied. One might make short term gain over the other, but the ruin of one will lead to the ruin of the other.

The sooner we stop making physical threats to each other, the faster goodwill can be built.

Rgds,

EYE

Originally posted by Shotgun:
Eye.

I don't know where you are from, but please read the previous post again.

The Lt. Col, was suggesting Malaysia to use "water" to gain leverage against Singapore. He was hinting that poisoning the water would be the last resort to gain that leverage against SG.

Ultimately, no matter what you say, it is the main point. Please do not think that Singaporeans will take this threat lightly. Should we even smell such an attempt, it will legally warrant us pre-emptive strikes in self-defense under international-laws.

Singapore is pretty much a peaceful country, preferred to be left alone. However, we have the ability to remove hindrance to our prosperity. Do not doubt that.
[This message has been edited by eye (edited 14 October 2001).]
tripwire
14 Oct 01, 21:35

Originally posted by eye:
Dear Shotgun,

I think you might miss what I am trying to say in my post.

First of all, as a Malaysian, I view threat of Bac & Chem weapons very seriously. I strongly oppose to its use and that no matter how bad our military situaton might be, it must never be used. it must not even mentioned.

My second point is this, before everyone starts to get worked up and wished for lots of malaysians to die, curse our armed forces and our leaders (like what have happened in most threads), all of us must get the facts rights first. We must get a copy of the original article written by this lt. Col. and see what he was actually writing about.

If he was really suggesting the use of chemical as a viable means of defence, then by all means go and condemn him and him alone. It is his personal view an not the view of Malaysian, MAF or our leaders.

Shogun,

At no point did I ask Singaporeans to take the issue lightly. It is a serious issue. Because of its seriousness our facts must be right. Because of its seriousness it is not something to be mentioned as a means to frighten either your 'opponents' or your own people as a means of control.

Singaporeans must understand that militarily, Malaysia poses no threat to Singapore. Your armed forces are far superior. This is not some sort of propaganda to make you guys complacent. It has been verified by many external parties who have compared the relative strenght of our armed forces (an even Tripwire, the forums in house 'expert')

Therefore,if this is the case, whatever disagreement or disputes we have between the two countries will be resolved politically.

Just because we object or disagree on a few things, it is not a basis for Sg to wield its armed forces as a stick to get Mal agreement. Similarly, for the idiot politicans on our side, just because Singapore disagree or object on a few points, there is no reason to threathen them with the cutting of water supply so that they will agree.

Before you accuse of Malaysia trying to hinder Singapore's prosperity and start to wield the military stick, please try to understand what we disagree or object. Malaysia and Singapore's prosperity is tied. One might make short term gain over the other, but the ruin of one will lead to the ruin of the other.

The sooner we stop making physical threats to each other, the faster goodwill can be built.

Rgds,

EYE

[This message has been edited by eye (edited 14 October 2001).]
one of the letter containing anthrax spores mailed to the USA originates from malaysia.... so much for good will.....

OF course.... the link to malaysia is too obvious that one have to consider the possibility that OSAMA might be trying to set malaysia up...... or get more country involved in his dispute against USA...

BUT i doubt SAF would take anything to chance... the very fact that one of the ANTHRAX letter is from malaysia will certainly raise alarm among top govt officials and officers.... even if malaysian govt may be innocent to the act.....

Last thing..... NEVER SAY NEVER..... when push come to shove... when force into desperation.... ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.....
Shotgun
14 Oct 01, 21:48

Originally posted by eye:
Dear Shotgun,

I think you might miss what I am trying to say in my post.

First of all, as a Malaysian, I view threat of Bac & Chem weapons very seriously. I strongly oppose to its use and that no matter how bad our military situaton might be, it must never be used. it must not even mentioned.

My second point is this, before everyone starts to get worked up and wished for lots of malaysians to die, curse our armed forces and our leaders (like what have happened in most threads), all of us must get the facts rights first. We must get a copy of the original article written by this lt. Col. and see what he was actually writing about.

If he was really suggesting the use of chemical as a viable means of defence, then by all means go and condemn him and him alone. It is his personal view an not the view of Malaysian, MAF or our leaders.

Shogun,

At no point did I ask Singaporeans to take the issue lightly. It is a serious issue. Because of its seriousness our facts must be right. Because of its seriousness it is not something to be mentioned as a means to frighten either your 'opponents' or your own people as a means of control.

Singaporeans must understand that militarily, Malaysia poses no threat to Singapore. Your armed forces are far superior. This is not some sort of propaganda to make you guys complacent. It has been verified by many external parties who have compared the relative strenght of our armed forces (an even Tripwire, the forums in house 'expert')

Therefore,if this is the case, whatever disagreement or disputes we have between the two countries will be resolved politically.

Just because we object or disagree on a few things, it is not a basis for Sg to wield its armed forces as a stick to get Mal agreement. Similarly, for the idiot politicans on our side, just because Singapore disagree or object on a few points, there is no reason to threathen them with the cutting of water supply so that they will agree.

Before you accuse of Malaysia trying to hinder Singapore's prosperity and start to wield the military stick, please try to understand what we disagree or object. Malaysia and Singapore's prosperity is tied. One might make short term gain over the other, but the ruin of one will lead to the ruin of the other.

The sooner we stop making physical threats to each other, the faster goodwill can be built.

Rgds,

EYE

[This message has been edited by eye (edited 14 October 2001).]
EYE.

Unfortunately, some people from your country doesn't feel so. A majority of Malaysians still consider Singapore a pesky little country in Malaysia's backyard. Example, A Particular Lt.Col From the MAF.

Whether I missed your point in the arguement is irrelevant, since I am pointing to what this Malaysian Officer said. Even you have agreed that what he said is worth condemning.

From what I gather, the general attitude in Malaysia and the MAF about Singapore is negative. How can we Singaporeans no for sure that no one of higher authority shares the same opinion with the MAF Lt. Col? How can we Singaporeans be sure that this MAF Lt.Col has not instilled such anti-Singapore attitudes to his subordinates? If such threats were made by some punk posting on the internet, it would probably be dismissed, with the asshole thoroughly flamed. However, the voice behind this is a high ranking officer in the MAF. No doubt, we know for sure that the MAF is considering non-conventional means of "subduing" Singapore.

I am not accusing Malaysia of wanting to hinder Singapore's prosperity, but rather anyone who wants to hinder Singapore's prosperity, will pay the price for it. And trust me, if Malaysia continues to use the control of water to threaten Singapore, they may one day lose control of the water.

I understand that water is a VITAL interest of both nations. We can both benefit by sharing it. But when one tries to deprive the other of it... I need not explain further.
token ring
15 Oct 01, 14:49

Such utterings from the leaders of our good neighbour is nothing new. And, being double standard, being sensitive to its neighbours feelings is the furthest thing from their minds, unless, of course, if its our leaders who said something, then we must watch what we say.... mmm.... I smell a stinky big bully.

Anyway, its not the first time that water has been brought into the fray. You see, as long as Singapore doesn't have its own supply of water enough for the whole nation, this will always be our weakest spot, and we can always expect our good neighbours to squeeze it whenever things don't go their way.

But still, using it as leverage is one thing. To even mention poisoning by means of biological or chemical methods is like comparing day and night. I don't know when the actual article was written, but for it to surface and be circulated at this time, its definitely to M'sia's disadvantage. Simply because such an act will be considered an act of brutal terrorism, fact being that both the military and civilians will suffer the effects, it will transcend way beyond war between 2 armed military. And they will have no one but themselves to blame when Uncle Sam grab this oppurtunity to put a big red "Islamic terrorists here" stamp on the map of M'sia. As we all know, already, the US has been hinting about the presence of trained Islamic militants and extremists in M'sia, Philipines, and Indonesia.

But what surprises me is that, given the high rank and seniority of some of their leaders, the things they utter can sound extremely stupid, silly, childish, lack of tact, good timing, and simple common sense, not to mention the wisdom that any leader should possess. I think any ah beng ah seng in the Singapore armed forces has more common sense in them regardless of how they curse and swear!

If our neighbour conitinue to have "kids who aged too soon" to be their leaders, then yes, our lives are definitely in danger!

And lest we fail to realise, the S'pore government is not oblivious to how water is an issue, projects have been ongoing to test various types of desalination methods around the island, some German company or something. Our leaders are working on it. Sure, it'll cost us end users, but one day, we may need every single drop of these water for us to survive. Yes, Dr.M has his shortcomings, who doesn't? But at least he still has some sense, as oppose to a religious radical. But he is getting old, and retiring soon. Who knows what kind of a man will take over him?! Taleban V2 anyone? If an Islamic fundamentalist party takes over the running of M'sia, you can bet your last sen that there will be no such thing as "negotiation", it will be, "here, S$1 for 2000 litre, you purify, we buy back at 50sen, take it or balik kampung". Harry Lee probably foreseen this possibility, thats why he himself went to negotiate while Dr.M is still around, knowing that the ruling UMNO is being pressured by PAS etc.

There is, however, still some hope, as I see in Badawi some signs of similarity with Dr.M. He seems to be quite wise, intelligent, and moderate. Yet, who knows? Only time will tell, but Harry Lee knows that time is not on his side.
token ring
15 Oct 01, 15:14

Sorry, I forgot to say something.

To Eye, I must first state my position. I am in no way hostile to M'sians or any of our neighbout for that matter. I work with M'sians, Philipinos, Myanmar and Chinese nationals everyday. I am not hostile to our neighbours or its leaders, but to those who harbour such evil ideas as chemical warfare.

Just imagine, SG is such a tiny piece of land, all it takes is just ONE tiny propeller driven plane, or to spray some anthrax above the the CBD during busy lunch hour, thereafter, people go back to their offices, then back home via public transport, back to their families..... next thing you know.... POW, it hits us, hundreds, if not thousands, dead, and maybe more to come. Do we have the capabilities or means to contain and handle this kind of scenario? Maybe. But the damage would have already been done. This is airborne attack.

And what of the water poison idea? It will be even WORST. Half, maybe more of SG's population could be affected, worst if the poison is lethal, has normal flu like symptoms as oppose to obvious ebola like signs, and is curable only if acted upon fast. Simply because millions of our people drink water and use it to bathe everyday. For a military leader to speak of such things, he should be court martialed, stripped of his rank, imprisoned, and fed rat poison everyday. In short, he should be given a piece of his own mind.

Eye, aren't you the least bit worried that you have such a person with such sick ideas and evil motives as a leader? Just what kind of example will he set to the followers and the next generation?
tripwire
15 Oct 01, 19:10

Originally posted by token ring:
Sorry, I forgot to say something.

To Eye, I must first state my position. I am in no way hostile to M'sians or any of our neighbout for that matter. I work with M'sians, Philipinos, Myanmar and Chinese nationals everyday. I am not hostile to our neighbours or its leaders, but to those who harbour such evil ideas as chemical warfare.

Just imagine, SG is such a tiny piece of land, all it takes is just ONE tiny propeller driven plane, or to spray some anthrax above the the CBD during busy lunch hour, thereafter, people go back to their offices, then back home via public transport, back to their families..... next thing you know.... POW, it hits us, hundreds, if not thousands, dead, and maybe more to come. Do we have the capabilities or means to contain and handle this kind of scenario? Maybe. But the damage would have already been done. This is airborne attack.

And what of the water poison idea? It will be even WORST. Half, maybe more of SG's population could be affected, worst if the poison is lethal, has normal flu like symptoms as oppose to obvious ebola like signs, and is curable only if acted upon fast. Simply because millions of our people drink water and use it to bathe everyday. For a military leader to speak of such things, he should be court martialed, stripped of his rank, imprisoned, and fed rat poison everyday. In short, he should be given a piece of his own mind.

Eye, aren't you the least bit worried that you have such a person with such sick ideas and evil motives as a leader? Just what kind of example will he set to the followers and the next generation?
suffice to say.... that MAF colonel certainly gave SAF a great idea about how to deal with MAF and malaysia should push goes to shove....

POISON MALAYSIAN WATER!!!! muahahahaaaaaa..........

This will teach that hunk of shit brain about biological or chemical warfare.... It can go both way!!

you poison my water.... i poison your water... you poison my food.... i poison your food.... whatever you can do to me... i can do likewise to you and your family......
Shotgun
15 Oct 01, 21:36

Originally posted by token ring:
Such utterings from the leaders of our good neighbour is nothing new. And, being double standard, being sensitive to its neighbours feelings is the furthest thing from their minds, unless, of course, if its our leaders who said something, then we must watch what we say.... mmm.... I smell a stinky big bully.

Anyway, its not the first time that water has been brought into the fray. You see, as long as Singapore doesn't have its own supply of water enough for the whole nation, this will always be our weakest spot, and we can always expect our good neighbours to squeeze it whenever things don't go their way.

But still, using it as leverage is one thing. To even mention poisoning by means of biological or chemical methods is like comparing day and night. I don't know when the actual article was written, but for it to surface and be circulated at this time, its definitely to M'sia's disadvantage. Simply because such an act will be considered an act of brutal terrorism, fact being that both the military and civilians will suffer the effects, it will transcend way beyond war between 2 armed military. And they will have no one but themselves to blame when Uncle Sam grab this oppurtunity to put a big red "Islamic terrorists here" stamp on the map of M'sia. As we all know, already, the US has been hinting about the presence of trained Islamic militants and extremists in M'sia, Philipines, and Indonesia.

But what surprises me is that, given the high rank and seniority of some of their leaders, the things they utter can sound extremely stupid, silly, childish, lack of tact, good timing, and simple common sense, not to mention the wisdom that any leader should possess. I think any ah beng ah seng in the Singapore armed forces has more common sense in them regardless of how they curse and swear!

If our neighbour conitinue to have "kids who aged too soon" to be their leaders, then yes, our lives are definitely in danger!

And lest we fail to realise, the S'pore government is not oblivious to how water is an issue, projects have been ongoing to test various types of desalination methods around the island, some German company or something. Our leaders are working on it. Sure, it'll cost us end users, but one day, we may need every single drop of these water for us to survive. Yes, Dr.M has his shortcomings, who doesn't? But at least he still has some sense, as oppose to a religious radical. But he is getting old, and retiring soon. Who knows what kind of a man will take over him?! Taleban V2 anyone? If an Islamic fundamentalist party takes over the running of M'sia, you can bet your last sen that there will be no such thing as "negotiation", it will be, "here, S$1 for 2000 litre, you purify, we buy back at 50sen, take it or balik kampung". Harry Lee probably foreseen this possibility, thats why he himself went to negotiate while Dr.M is still around, knowing that the ruling UMNO is being pressured by PAS etc.

There is, however, still some hope, as I see in Badawi some signs of similarity with Dr.M. He seems to be quite wise, intelligent, and moderate. Yet, who knows? Only time will tell, but Harry Lee knows that time is not on his side.
Actually Singapore has already developed desalination methods that actually cuts 90% of the normal desalination costs.

If you noticed, it was in the papers recently when Malaysia suddenly decided to raise the price. The whole desalination project went into silent running since 1997, and the latest news we get, shocked everybody with its greatly reduced costs. The tables suddenly turned against Malaysia, and Singapore could easily sell Malaysia purified water at an absurdly high costs without taking raw water from malaysia, which Johore needs.

This I feel is one of the reasons why Malaysia had to back off its hard stance on the water issue.

Then came the airspace issue. They suddenly allowed us to use their airspace again. I am seriously wondering what SM Lee said to Dr.M. Maybe its because Malaysia could suddenly be able to relocate her squadrons further north and allow Singapore to hand the southern airspace as well as air traffic control?

Then the Malaysians reluctantly agreed to shift their CIQ?

I am seriously wondering what SM Lee said. The whole deal looks better for us than for Malaysia.
token ring
16 Oct 01, 00:24

Well said. Mahathir is not a stupid man, PM Lee knows that, both of them knows very well that there are issues which are waiting for years to be ironed out. Which neighbouring countries don't have its differences? But we know very well that if we take the hardline, no mercy path like what the middle east countries are doing, it will totally destroy what little stability and fragile economy which we have now. That is why Dr.M is advocating moderation and balance in political and religious matters. For he knows very well how the ugly face of religious and ethnic extremism can totally ruin a country and its future.

Look at the Taleban regime. What kind of lives are its people leading? Women were only allowed to see female doctors, yet women are not (and still not) allowed to learn and go to school! How ironic?!? If they need to see a doctor who is not female, then they can only do so by communicating their ailments, softly, no eye contact blah blah. They are not even allowed to make any noise which will attract any attention when they walk on the streets, otherwise, any men will have the right to beat them up! Atrocious! Islam doesn't teach all these! Any doctrine, when taken out of context and taken to extremism (as is the case in Northern Ireland between the Protestant Christians and the Catholics) is a sure fire way to lead you on to the highway to agony, failure, and strife (for that matter, strife means jihad in Arabic, not really "holy war" which most people relate it to, in fact, Islam teaches us to strife DAILY for Allah in all that we do, to do good things and to be peaceful towards all).

But one worrying sign is how some states in M'sia has been taken over by a certain party which practise Islamic fundamentalism. In these Islamic states, get caught stealing? Say goodbye to your hands. Adultery? Stoning to death. (the old Judaism use to practise such Laws to if I'm not wrong).

Look at the people in Kashmir. If any Muslim female are caught not wearing the right attire (fully covered, head to toe, no eye contact with strangers, no raising of voice etc), the lawmen have the right to throw acid at you, that much is official. So if you happen to be a Hindu or non-Muslim, you are suppose to make it clear by the dot on your forehead!

But I digress. The bottomline is, M'sia and SG cannot afford to go to war for such minor squabbles. It will certainly destroy what both sides so painstakingly built over the years. And if this region lose the stability that it relies on so much, there will be no reason left for anyone else to do business here. We'll all be heading straight down the gutter in no time, doomed to fail forever.

Remember, it takes hundreds of years for an oak tree to grow into a giant, but it only takes seconds for it to be cut down and destroyed. Let us cherish whatever we have now, work on our differences, respect each other, and move on to bigger, better things!

edited (typo)

[This message has been edited by token ring (edited 16 October 2001).]
token ring
16 Oct 01, 00:31

[QUOTE]Originally posted by eye:

The sooner we stop making physical threats to each other, the faster goodwill can be built.

QUOTE]

EYE,

if only all your leaders are as reasonable and wise as you are....

Cheers
tripwire
16 Oct 01, 00:37

Originally posted by token ring:
Well said. Mahathir is not a stupid man, PM Lee knows that, both of them knows very well that there are issues which are waiting for years to be ironed out. Which neighbouring countries don't have its differences? But we know very well that if we take the hardline, no mercy path like what the middle east countries are doing, it will totally destroy what little stability and fragile economy which we have now. That is why Dr.M is advocating moderation and balance in political and religious matters. For he knows very well how the ugly face of religious and ethnic extremism can totally ruin a country and its future.

Look at the Taleban regime. What kind of lives are its people leading? Women were only allowed to see female doctors, yet women are not (and still not) allowed to learn and go to school! How ironic?!? If they need to see a doctor who is not female, then they can only do so by communicating there ailments, softly, no eye contact blah blah. They are not even allowed to make any noise which will attract any attention when they walk on the streets, otherwise, any men will have the right to beat them up! Atrocious! Islam doesn't teach all these! Any doctrine, when taken out of context and taken to extremism is a sure fire way to lead you to the road to agony, failure, and strife (for that matter, strife means jihad, not really holy war which most people think, in fact, Islam teaches us to strife DAILY for Allah in all that we do, to do good things and to be peaceful towards all).

But one worrying sign is how some states in M'sia has been taken over by a certain party which practise Islamic fundamentalism. In these Islamic states, get caught stealing? Say goodbye to your hands. Adultery? Stoning to death. (the old Judaism use to practise such Laws to if I'm not wrong).

Look at the people in Kashmir. If any Muslim female are caught not wearing the right attire (fully covered, head to toe, no eye contact with strangers, no raising of voice etc), the lawmen have the right to throw acid at you, that much is official. So if you happen to be a Hindu or non-Muslim, you are suppose to make it clear by the dot on your forehead!

But I digress. The bottomline is, M'sia and SG cannot afford to go to war for such minor squabbles. It will certainly destroy what both sides so painstakingly built over the years. And if this region lose the stability that it relies on so much, there will be no reason left for anyone else to do business here. We'll all be heading straight down the gutter in no time, doomed to fail forever.

Remember, it takes hundreds of years for an oak tree to grow into a giant, but it only takes seconds for it to be cut down and destroyed. Let us cherish whatever we have now, work on our differences, respect each other, and move on to bigger, better things!

easier said then done when the question changes to either chopping your oak tree or my oak tree as fertilizer for the oak tree that remains standing......

Why malaysia has suddenly become more cozy to singapore???..... only the 2 old man knows.... but its certainly not because they are in love.... hahahaaaa.....
tripwire
16 Oct 01, 01:36

Originally posted by token ring:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by eye:

The sooner we stop making physical threats to each other, the faster goodwill can be built.

QUOTE]

EYE,

if only all your leaders are as reasonable and wise as you are....

Cheers
Wise?? Wise words always falls on deaf ears......

So what if the leaders are wise.... if the people are fools??? one man cannot move a mountain.... even leaders must succumb to the foolishness of the majority or get boot out of office....
eagle
16 Oct 01, 23:41

Originally posted by tripwire:
Wise?? Wise words always falls on deaf ears......

So what if the leaders are wise.... if the people are fools??? one man cannot move a mountain.... even leaders must succumb to the foolishness of the majority or get boot out of office....

tt's y govt build so many schs lor. So many new pri, sec, JC. Even considering a new uni.
But pple foolish got 1 advantage, can manipulate them to ur own advantage.

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Thomas Edison definition of genius :
"1% inspiration, 99% perspiration"
tripwire
18 Oct 01, 00:20

Originally posted by eagle:
tt's y govt build so many schs lor. So many new pri, sec, JC. Even considering a new uni.
But pple foolish got 1 advantage, can manipulate them to ur own advantage.

schools???..... schools.... dont rely too much on that for wisdom.....

Schools are where knowledge is found... intelligience is from your mother's womb and wisdom... is from..... LIFE.......

ever heard of warrior madrasah in afganistan??? they dont teach knowledge or wisdom... they churn out zombies.... some what similar to singapore schools churning out zombies labours in the past.... even now.... its hard to change....
oeitou
21 Oct 01, 12:36

i dun think the malaysia goverment trust us enough 2 think that we will actually try 2 launch a military offensive on them (unless they drop their weapons in 1st)

even if the spore gov wants to attack malaysia, singaporeans will surely oppose such an action by not taking part in such an operation coz we think its basically not rite. i dun think we will attack unless sum1 lay a finger on us.

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Berpegang Teguh Kepada Pediriannya
oeitou
21 Oct 01, 12:44

i dun think it will be easy to spray antrax spores over s'pore's skies. any unidentified foreign aircraft in spore is surely be intercepted b4 they do any harm, and even they do creep in and gives us that bio/chem attack, they will be easily found out by then.

Originally posted by token ring:
Sorry, I forgot to say something.

To Eye, I must first state my position. I am in no way hostile to M'sians or any of our neighbout for that matter. I work with M'sians, Philipinos, Myanmar and Chinese nationals everyday. I am not hostile to our neighbours or its leaders, but to those who harbour such evil ideas as chemical warfare.

Just imagine, SG is such a tiny piece of land, all it takes is just ONE tiny propeller driven plane, or to spray some anthrax above the the CBD during busy lunch hour, thereafter, people go back to their offices, then back home via public transport, back to their families..... next thing you know.... POW, it hits us, hundreds, if not thousands, dead, and maybe more to come. Do we have the capabilities or means to contain and handle this kind of scenario? Maybe. But the damage would have already been done. This is airborne attack.

And what of the water poison idea? It will be even WORST. Half, maybe more of SG's population could be affected, worst if the poison is lethal, has normal flu like symptoms as oppose to obvious ebola like signs, and is curable only if acted upon fast. Simply because millions of our people drink water and use it to bathe everyday. For a military leader to speak of such things, he should be court martialed, stripped of his rank, imprisoned, and fed rat poison everyday. In short, he should be given a piece of his own mind.

Eye, aren't you the least bit worried that you have such a person with such sick ideas and evil motives as a leader? Just what kind of example will he set to the followers and the next generation?