Originally posted by tripwire:First... i wish to thank the malaysian colonel.... in fact... i think all singaporeans should thank him.. this colonel could actually end up being the saviour of singapore...
By such a suggestion.... he certainly helps to alert singapore govt over the possibility of such an attack.... and indirectly help us to buck up and pay more attention to the future of biological and chemical warfare.
in fact... his suggestion couldnt have been more timely.... with terrorist on the loose and americans living in perpetual fear of such a attack... as a city state of high population density... such an attack on singapore will effectively destroy us without a single round being fired.
THE SAF has been too complacent in dealing against such a threat... and our C2P govt went to sign that treaty which bans us from developing, making, possesing and using biological and chemical weapons.... GOD help us!!
BUT.... i think if a few outbreak should occur across malaysia due to 'divine' intervention.... who can say??
SO... dont look at the colonels statement negatively.... in fact... dont even be bother about the malaysian idea.... if push come to shoves... who would give a damn about treaties....
IF malaysia poison our water... no problem... we can poison theirs...
But usually,.... nations would avoid using such weapons irregardless how desperate the situation becomes... as examplified by WW2 where both allies and axis forces never used such weapons despite possesing them....
The belief is that.... as long as i dont use it.... they will not use it.....
But such a belief is based on the assumption that both nation are capable of such a capability..... is singapore capable of such a offensive?
FOR EVERY ACTION.... there will be an equal and opposite REACTION....Originally posted by eagle:They need not juz poison the water. They can well bomb the pipeline and blame the terrorists for that, or for some other stupid reason that they can think of.
[This message has been edited by eye (edited 14 October 2001).]Originally posted by Shotgun:Eye.
I don't know where you are from, but please read the previous post again.
The Lt. Col, was suggesting Malaysia to use "water" to gain leverage against Singapore. He was hinting that poisoning the water would be the last resort to gain that leverage against SG.
Ultimately, no matter what you say, it is the main point. Please do not think that Singaporeans will take this threat lightly. Should we even smell such an attempt, it will legally warrant us pre-emptive strikes in self-defense under international-laws.
Singapore is pretty much a peaceful country, preferred to be left alone. However, we have the ability to remove hindrance to our prosperity. Do not doubt that.
one of the letter containing anthrax spores mailed to the USA originates from malaysia.... so much for good will.....Originally posted by eye:Dear Shotgun,
I think you might miss what I am trying to say in my post.
First of all, as a Malaysian, I view threat of Bac & Chem weapons very seriously. I strongly oppose to its use and that no matter how bad our military situaton might be, it must never be used. it must not even mentioned.
My second point is this, before everyone starts to get worked up and wished for lots of malaysians to die, curse our armed forces and our leaders (like what have happened in most threads), all of us must get the facts rights first. We must get a copy of the original article written by this lt. Col. and see what he was actually writing about.
If he was really suggesting the use of chemical as a viable means of defence, then by all means go and condemn him and him alone. It is his personal view an not the view of Malaysian, MAF or our leaders.
Shogun,
At no point did I ask Singaporeans to take the issue lightly. It is a serious issue. Because of its seriousness our facts must be right. Because of its seriousness it is not something to be mentioned as a means to frighten either your 'opponents' or your own people as a means of control.
Singaporeans must understand that militarily, Malaysia poses no threat to Singapore. Your armed forces are far superior. This is not some sort of propaganda to make you guys complacent. It has been verified by many external parties who have compared the relative strenght of our armed forces (an even Tripwire, the forums in house 'expert')
Therefore,if this is the case, whatever disagreement or disputes we have between the two countries will be resolved politically.
Just because we object or disagree on a few things, it is not a basis for Sg to wield its armed forces as a stick to get Mal agreement. Similarly, for the idiot politicans on our side, just because Singapore disagree or object on a few points, there is no reason to threathen them with the cutting of water supply so that they will agree.
Before you accuse of Malaysia trying to hinder Singapore's prosperity and start to wield the military stick, please try to understand what we disagree or object. Malaysia and Singapore's prosperity is tied. One might make short term gain over the other, but the ruin of one will lead to the ruin of the other.
The sooner we stop making physical threats to each other, the faster goodwill can be built.
Rgds,
EYE
[This message has been edited by eye (edited 14 October 2001).]
EYE.Originally posted by eye:Dear Shotgun,
I think you might miss what I am trying to say in my post.
First of all, as a Malaysian, I view threat of Bac & Chem weapons very seriously. I strongly oppose to its use and that no matter how bad our military situaton might be, it must never be used. it must not even mentioned.
My second point is this, before everyone starts to get worked up and wished for lots of malaysians to die, curse our armed forces and our leaders (like what have happened in most threads), all of us must get the facts rights first. We must get a copy of the original article written by this lt. Col. and see what he was actually writing about.
If he was really suggesting the use of chemical as a viable means of defence, then by all means go and condemn him and him alone. It is his personal view an not the view of Malaysian, MAF or our leaders.
Shogun,
At no point did I ask Singaporeans to take the issue lightly. It is a serious issue. Because of its seriousness our facts must be right. Because of its seriousness it is not something to be mentioned as a means to frighten either your 'opponents' or your own people as a means of control.
Singaporeans must understand that militarily, Malaysia poses no threat to Singapore. Your armed forces are far superior. This is not some sort of propaganda to make you guys complacent. It has been verified by many external parties who have compared the relative strenght of our armed forces (an even Tripwire, the forums in house 'expert')
Therefore,if this is the case, whatever disagreement or disputes we have between the two countries will be resolved politically.
Just because we object or disagree on a few things, it is not a basis for Sg to wield its armed forces as a stick to get Mal agreement. Similarly, for the idiot politicans on our side, just because Singapore disagree or object on a few points, there is no reason to threathen them with the cutting of water supply so that they will agree.
Before you accuse of Malaysia trying to hinder Singapore's prosperity and start to wield the military stick, please try to understand what we disagree or object. Malaysia and Singapore's prosperity is tied. One might make short term gain over the other, but the ruin of one will lead to the ruin of the other.
The sooner we stop making physical threats to each other, the faster goodwill can be built.
Rgds,
EYE
[This message has been edited by eye (edited 14 October 2001).]
suffice to say.... that MAF colonel certainly gave SAF a great idea about how to deal with MAF and malaysia should push goes to shove....Originally posted by token ring:Sorry, I forgot to say something.
To Eye, I must first state my position. I am in no way hostile to M'sians or any of our neighbout for that matter. I work with M'sians, Philipinos, Myanmar and Chinese nationals everyday. I am not hostile to our neighbours or its leaders, but to those who harbour such evil ideas as chemical warfare.
Just imagine, SG is such a tiny piece of land, all it takes is just ONE tiny propeller driven plane, or to spray some anthrax above the the CBD during busy lunch hour, thereafter, people go back to their offices, then back home via public transport, back to their families..... next thing you know.... POW, it hits us, hundreds, if not thousands, dead, and maybe more to come. Do we have the capabilities or means to contain and handle this kind of scenario? Maybe. But the damage would have already been done. This is airborne attack.
And what of the water poison idea? It will be even WORST. Half, maybe more of SG's population could be affected, worst if the poison is lethal, has normal flu like symptoms as oppose to obvious ebola like signs, and is curable only if acted upon fast. Simply because millions of our people drink water and use it to bathe everyday. For a military leader to speak of such things, he should be court martialed, stripped of his rank, imprisoned, and fed rat poison everyday. In short, he should be given a piece of his own mind.
Eye, aren't you the least bit worried that you have such a person with such sick ideas and evil motives as a leader? Just what kind of example will he set to the followers and the next generation?
Actually Singapore has already developed desalination methods that actually cuts 90% of the normal desalination costs.Originally posted by token ring:Such utterings from the leaders of our good neighbour is nothing new. And, being double standard, being sensitive to its neighbours feelings is the furthest thing from their minds, unless, of course, if its our leaders who said something, then we must watch what we say.... mmm.... I smell a stinky big bully.
Anyway, its not the first time that water has been brought into the fray. You see, as long as Singapore doesn't have its own supply of water enough for the whole nation, this will always be our weakest spot, and we can always expect our good neighbours to squeeze it whenever things don't go their way.
But still, using it as leverage is one thing. To even mention poisoning by means of biological or chemical methods is like comparing day and night. I don't know when the actual article was written, but for it to surface and be circulated at this time, its definitely to M'sia's disadvantage. Simply because such an act will be considered an act of brutal terrorism, fact being that both the military and civilians will suffer the effects, it will transcend way beyond war between 2 armed military. And they will have no one but themselves to blame when Uncle Sam grab this oppurtunity to put a big red "Islamic terrorists here" stamp on the map of M'sia. As we all know, already, the US has been hinting about the presence of trained Islamic militants and extremists in M'sia, Philipines, and Indonesia.
But what surprises me is that, given the high rank and seniority of some of their leaders, the things they utter can sound extremely stupid, silly, childish, lack of tact, good timing, and simple common sense, not to mention the wisdom that any leader should possess. I think any ah beng ah seng in the Singapore armed forces has more common sense in them regardless of how they curse and swear!
If our neighbour conitinue to have "kids who aged too soon" to be their leaders, then yes, our lives are definitely in danger!
And lest we fail to realise, the S'pore government is not oblivious to how water is an issue, projects have been ongoing to test various types of desalination methods around the island, some German company or something. Our leaders are working on it. Sure, it'll cost us end users, but one day, we may need every single drop of these water for us to survive. Yes, Dr.M has his shortcomings, who doesn't? But at least he still has some sense, as oppose to a religious radical. But he is getting old, and retiring soon. Who knows what kind of a man will take over him?! Taleban V2 anyone? If an Islamic fundamentalist party takes over the running of M'sia, you can bet your last sen that there will be no such thing as "negotiation", it will be, "here, S$1 for 2000 litre, you purify, we buy back at 50sen, take it or balik kampung". Harry Lee probably foreseen this possibility, thats why he himself went to negotiate while Dr.M is still around, knowing that the ruling UMNO is being pressured by PAS etc.
There is, however, still some hope, as I see in Badawi some signs of similarity with Dr.M. He seems to be quite wise, intelligent, and moderate. Yet, who knows? Only time will tell, but Harry Lee knows that time is not on his side.
easier said then done when the question changes to either chopping your oak tree or my oak tree as fertilizer for the oak tree that remains standing......Originally posted by token ring:Well said. Mahathir is not a stupid man, PM Lee knows that, both of them knows very well that there are issues which are waiting for years to be ironed out. Which neighbouring countries don't have its differences? But we know very well that if we take the hardline, no mercy path like what the middle east countries are doing, it will totally destroy what little stability and fragile economy which we have now. That is why Dr.M is advocating moderation and balance in political and religious matters. For he knows very well how the ugly face of religious and ethnic extremism can totally ruin a country and its future.
Look at the Taleban regime. What kind of lives are its people leading? Women were only allowed to see female doctors, yet women are not (and still not) allowed to learn and go to school! How ironic?!? If they need to see a doctor who is not female, then they can only do so by communicating there ailments, softly, no eye contact blah blah. They are not even allowed to make any noise which will attract any attention when they walk on the streets, otherwise, any men will have the right to beat them up! Atrocious! Islam doesn't teach all these! Any doctrine, when taken out of context and taken to extremism is a sure fire way to lead you to the road to agony, failure, and strife (for that matter, strife means jihad, not really holy war which most people think, in fact, Islam teaches us to strife DAILY for Allah in all that we do, to do good things and to be peaceful towards all).
But one worrying sign is how some states in M'sia has been taken over by a certain party which practise Islamic fundamentalism. In these Islamic states, get caught stealing? Say goodbye to your hands. Adultery? Stoning to death. (the old Judaism use to practise such Laws to if I'm not wrong).
Look at the people in Kashmir. If any Muslim female are caught not wearing the right attire (fully covered, head to toe, no eye contact with strangers, no raising of voice etc), the lawmen have the right to throw acid at you, that much is official. So if you happen to be a Hindu or non-Muslim, you are suppose to make it clear by the dot on your forehead!
But I digress. The bottomline is, M'sia and SG cannot afford to go to war for such minor squabbles. It will certainly destroy what both sides so painstakingly built over the years. And if this region lose the stability that it relies on so much, there will be no reason left for anyone else to do business here. We'll all be heading straight down the gutter in no time, doomed to fail forever.
Remember, it takes hundreds of years for an oak tree to grow into a giant, but it only takes seconds for it to be cut down and destroyed. Let us cherish whatever we have now, work on our differences, respect each other, and move on to bigger, better things!
Wise?? Wise words always falls on deaf ears......Originally posted by token ring:[QUOTE]Originally posted by eye:
The sooner we stop making physical threats to each other, the faster goodwill can be built.
QUOTE]
EYE,
if only all your leaders are as reasonable and wise as you are....
Cheers
tt's y govt build so many schs lor. So many new pri, sec, JC. Even considering a new uni.Originally posted by tripwire:Wise?? Wise words always falls on deaf ears......
So what if the leaders are wise.... if the people are fools??? one man cannot move a mountain.... even leaders must succumb to the foolishness of the majority or get boot out of office....
schools???..... schools.... dont rely too much on that for wisdom.....Originally posted by eagle:tt's y govt build so many schs lor. So many new pri, sec, JC. Even considering a new uni.
But pple foolish got 1 advantage, can manipulate them to ur own advantage.
Originally posted by token ring:Sorry, I forgot to say something.
To Eye, I must first state my position. I am in no way hostile to M'sians or any of our neighbout for that matter. I work with M'sians, Philipinos, Myanmar and Chinese nationals everyday. I am not hostile to our neighbours or its leaders, but to those who harbour such evil ideas as chemical warfare.
Just imagine, SG is such a tiny piece of land, all it takes is just ONE tiny propeller driven plane, or to spray some anthrax above the the CBD during busy lunch hour, thereafter, people go back to their offices, then back home via public transport, back to their families..... next thing you know.... POW, it hits us, hundreds, if not thousands, dead, and maybe more to come. Do we have the capabilities or means to contain and handle this kind of scenario? Maybe. But the damage would have already been done. This is airborne attack.
And what of the water poison idea? It will be even WORST. Half, maybe more of SG's population could be affected, worst if the poison is lethal, has normal flu like symptoms as oppose to obvious ebola like signs, and is curable only if acted upon fast. Simply because millions of our people drink water and use it to bathe everyday. For a military leader to speak of such things, he should be court martialed, stripped of his rank, imprisoned, and fed rat poison everyday. In short, he should be given a piece of his own mind.
Eye, aren't you the least bit worried that you have such a person with such sick ideas and evil motives as a leader? Just what kind of example will he set to the followers and the next generation?