Statistically,more innocence killed in the name of Vengeanc,
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How many magnanimous world leader really change the behaviours of their people to forgive and forget after a major war or conflicts?
The Japanese vowed not to go to war again eventhough there were no apology for its second world war atrocities. There were more innocent people died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki after the atomic bomb attack.
More innocent people were slaughtered in the name of democracy in the Korean Peninsula, in Vietnam, in Germany.....
And even more in the war of aggression, such as the Kuwait-Iraq war......
Yet there were more innocent people sacrified in the war of vengeances in Israel-Palestine conflicts, in the Kosova Conflicts, in Indonesia, in Sri Lanka......
Looking back to history, if there was no vengeance, the conflict might just end there like that of the second world war.
Is the word "VENGEANCE" greatly emphasized in the modern version of the Bible, Quran or other religious literatures? Are the modern day Christians or Muslims gathered their strength in Churches or Mosques to take revenge to kill the innocent people???? -
This is why Vengeance works. The Japs learnt it the hard way. The fucked the US bad in 1942, but got royally smoked when 2 A-bombs dropped on them. Leaving them with 2headed kids for generations.
"Revenge is a dish best served cold." -
Anyone know the difference between freedom-fighters and terrorists? I'll tell you the difference.
The freedom-fighters live in the West while the terrorists live in the East.
The fact is terrorists can be viewed as freedom-fighters and vice-versa. -
Quit your "I tell you." Its bullshit.
Freedom fighters are people who are fighting for their independence.
Terrorists are cowardly bastards that attack others with a political agenda.
Shows how much knowledge you have. Name me a case of "freedom fighters" in the "west." Most western nations are developed countries, what independence is there to fight for? -
So touchy..
The examples are the posts above you...those wars that are fought in the name of democracy. Those people who fought for democracy are 'freedom-fighters'. Its a fight for freedom for them but a terror for the other party.
According to your wise definition of freedom-fighters, the 'terrorists' in the Middle East can be considered a freedom-fighter since they are fighting for independence against Israeli and US oppresion but they are considered terrorists in Israel. Get it now?
As for my lack of knowledge:
Adding to the above examples..
ETA in Spain and there's those in Northern Ireland. Plus some people thought Milosevic was a freedom fighter.
I'm not saying that I support these groups. In fact, I dun since they resort to violence. I'd just like to point out that theres really very little difference between them. Like what ex-president Ronald Reagan said: one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." -
Bla bla... watever.
People like you only serve to smudge the fine line between freedom fighters and terrorists.
As of now, I state clearly, my view of freedom fighters and terrorists stand from the view of an international community. To a pro-IRA irish, IRA maybe freedom fighters. BUT to people like me, I consider them to be terrorists worthy to be exterminated like the roaches they are. The use of Bombs, traps and shootings against innoncent civillians have condemned their cause.
I do not consider Palestinians as terrorists, as it would be as wrong as calling all arabs terrorists. They do have armed groups, that have carried out terrorist attacks against Israel. I consider the situation between the Palestinians and Israel to be deadlock and VERY fuckin irritating. But when you think about it another way, its just nature. The 2 can never co-exist generally. Just like cats and dogs. They fight whenever they can.
Milosevic a freedom fighteR? He couldn't even free willy if he wanted to. What he did was oppress ethnic Albanians, and in recent cases slaughtering them. According to the United Nations, its called a CRIME AGAINST humanity.
If you really want an example of a freedom fighter, I will name you one. Robin Hood. Fairy tale or did he ever exist, he sets the example of a Freedom Fighter. He slew no innoncent, and fought oppressive soldiers. He gave money to the poor.
Osama Bin Laden, hmm lets see. WTC bombing of 1993, killed 6, injuring thousands. OOPS, no Robin Hood there. Bombed US embassies in kenya and tanzania, aww dammed. Bombed USS cole, okay from a "freedom fighter" point of view, he just ripped off a few "imperialist" guards. And of course, now he's implicated with this tragic incident. Is he a freedom fighter?
My point, there used to be a clear line between freedom fighters and "terrorists" or watever it could have been called. The lines have only been smudged by the terrorists themselves as well as people *ahem* who claim these terrorists to be freedom fighters. -
I'm not saying that terrorists are good as they can be freedom fighters. I'm saying that they are both the same and are both equally bad. You might not view for example Milosevic as freedom fighter but some other people do. The reason why? Who cares? Thats not my point. My point is there is no clear line between freedom fighters and terrorists.
I already pointed out why he is considered a freedom fighter according to YOUR own definition. So why are you arguing? You never even specify what differentiates a freedom-fighter and a terrorists. They both fought for a cause they believe, resort to violence and take the law into their own hands. So I ask you now..what is the difference?
As for Robin Hood, he's not even a real character in a real world. We're discussing reality here. Anyway to me, stealing from the rich and giving it to the poor is morally wrong. Reminds me of the tragic event of the poor Indonesians stealing from the rich Indonesian Chinese. -
OHHH...... BUT THERE IS LINE BETWEEN freedom fighters and terrorist...Originally posted by dexter:I'm not saying that terrorists are good as they can be freedom fighters. I'm saying that they are both the same and are both equally bad. You might not view for example Milosevic as freedom fighter but some other people do. The reason why? Who cares? Thats not my point. My point is there is no clear line between freedom fighters and terrorists.
I already pointed out why he is considered a freedom fighter according to YOUR own definition. So why are you arguing? You never even specify what differentiates a freedom-fighter and a terrorists. They both fought for a cause they believe, resort to violence and take the law into their own hands. So I ask you now..what is the difference?
As for Robin Hood, he's not even a real character in a real world. We're discussing reality here. Anyway to me, stealing from the rich and giving it to the poor is morally wrong. Reminds me of the tragic event of the poor Indonesians stealing from the rich Indonesian Chinese.
Freedom fighters like the chinese communist fighting the KMT in CHINA during its civil war, targets ONLY military establishment....
they NEVER NEVER take civilian life indiscriminantly and with so little respect for the sanctity of human life......
Terrorist on the other hand.... primarily targets enemy CIVILIANS while at the same time, avoiding the enemy's military establishment..... they have taken many civilian lifes with not a care over the innocence of those towards their cause ..
In fact.... terrorism targets defenceless civilians caught in a situation where they can neither defend themselves nor escape...
Terrorist kills even yound childrens and infants intentionally.... to achieve the aim of striking fear... freedom fighters dont do that...
Another difference is that:
Freedom fighters.... always avoid hitting civilians as such killings will weaken their cause within their own country.... so their actions is usually in house.... they do not normally carry out attacks beyond the borders of the land they wish to free...
Terrorist on the other hand.... usually hits beyond its border against another state.... and in the case of the muslim extremist.... IF you happened to be born an american or jews....... YOU DESERVE TO BE KILLED... irrespective of your innocence or political affliation, or profession.
lastly..... muslim extremist dont fight for freedom.... they are already free in their islamic state or land..... they are fighting in the name of their ALLAH... they call it a holy war... a war based on religion....
MANY muslims... of cause deny the legitimacy of the holy war.... but that is not so in the minds of the terrorist, talibans and many other supporters of OSAMA....
in the eyes of OSAMA... GOD is just a tool for him to exploit... the use of religion helps to galvanise support for him.... since god isnt gonna appear and challenge OSAMA's claim.... and as far as OSAMA sees... HE is GOD... with the power and the right to declare jihad and takes the lives of many people whom GOD has created....
GOD never forgets anyone... he created and give life to every living things on the earth... rest assure... GOD will see him pay dearly for his crimes.... OSAMA can lie to his followers .... but does he think he can fool GOD as well?? -
*applauds tripwire*
Thats my point. Robin Hood never slew innocent civilians. Only soldiers. Even though he may not be a real person, man have always drawn moral truths from fictious stories. Like the boy who cried wolf and consequently got eaten. They are stories told for all to learn.
Now let us understand the objectives of terrorism. Often enough, by targeting civilians and structures, buildings and other infrastructure, they hope to achieve in creating a state of chaos to the people of a particular country. Why do they need this chaos and social unrest? To achieve their own political agenda, to make the public lose confidence of their own government and hopefully support their cause.
Freedom Fighters, however, conduct raids against military installations and personnel. They win over the hearts of those oppressed, as well as support from some of their oppressors. They are men with a code of conduct, and honor.
Perhaps to the terrorists themselves, they consider themselves to be righteous freedom fighters, with a "god" given right to slay "infidels" and go to heaven doing so. These men have the blood of innoncents in their hands, yet they consider it a holy deed. How can one reason with those who choose not to be reasoned? How do you convince them of their wrongful cause when they are piloting your plane ready to dump it into another federal building. These people know only life and death, and to communicate with them, we have to speak their language. -
Yah, an eye for an eye. How much pain they had induced on the innocents must be returned in double. Or U.S. could learn some torturing skill invented by ancient china.Originally posted by Shotgun:*applauds tripwire*
Thats my point. Robin Hood never slew innocent civilians. Only soldiers. Even though he may not be a real person, man have always drawn moral truths from fictious stories. Like the boy who cried wolf and consequently got eaten. They are stories told for all to learn.
Now let us understand the objectives of terrorism. Often enough, by targeting civilians and structures, buildings and other infrastructure, they hope to achieve in creating a state of chaos to the people of a particular country. Why do they need this chaos and social unrest? To achieve their own political agenda, to make the public lose confidence of their own government and hopefully support their cause.
Freedom Fighters, however, conduct raids against military installations and personnel. They win over the hearts of those oppressed, as well as support from some of their oppressors. They are men with a code of conduct, and honor.
Perhaps to the terrorists themselves, they consider themselves to be righteous freedom fighters, with a "god" given right to slay "infidels" and go to heaven doing so. These men have the blood of innoncents in their hands, yet they consider it a holy deed. How can one reason with those who choose not to be reasoned? How do you convince them of their wrongful cause when they are piloting your plane ready to dump it into another federal building. These people know only life and death, and to communicate with them, we have to speak their language. -
I hope Osama suffers the same punishment as some of the most evil men who have ever lived in this world. Same as Adolf Hitler whose "christian" supremecist ideals led to the deaths of six million Jews. Same as Milosevic whose "crusade" against the innocent Muslim and Catholic population led to the deaths of 70,000 civilians. Same as Timothy McVie whose "christian" militancy led to the deaths of almost 200 schoolchildren, teacher and parents in the Oklohoma bombing.
I hope the world will be a better place!
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For a rollicking good time, come visit my homepage at: http://clik.to/pebble -
------------------Originally posted by salivateforme:I hope Osama suffers the same punishment as some of the most evil men who have ever lived in this world. Same as Adolf Hitler whose "christian" supremecist ideals led to the deaths of six million Jews.
*Was Hitler punished? Didn't he commit suicide,with his mistress?
Same as Milosevic whose "crusade" against the innocent Muslim and Catholic population led to the deaths of 70,000 civilians.
*At least, he didn't justify his actions by using religion, like Hitler.
Same as Timothy McVie whose "christian" militancy led to the deaths of almost 200 schoolchildren, teacher and parents in the Oklohoma bombing.
*He is more notorious for bombing federal buidlings, really, reminds me of the NYC WTC Incident. I bet he will meet Osama and his underlings pretty soon, in Hell or Heaven, according to your beliefs.
I hope the world will be a better place!
'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. -- Alfred Lord Tennyson -
Yes, Hitler did commit suicide, I was just highlighting all the evil men who seem to share the same league as Osama. All of them do not share a common religion, but they share the same boundlessly evil ambitions. They are evil men, not evil christians or evil muslims or evil hindus or evil buddhists...
and contrary to popular belief, Milosevic did use religion to fuel his genocidal crusade...this was how he managed to convince all of his people (soldiers and civilians alike) to target the Muslim and Catholic sections of their community...
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For a rollicking good time, come visit my homepage at: http://clik.to/pebble -
YET incredibly.... OSAMA who has no country to call his own remain widely popular in the islamic world... and even more incredibly.... the islamic world with its many mullahs and clerics..... somehow.... seems oblivious to his desecration of the islamic faith..... i wonder.... what kind of islamic followers are among the world now... that have not lifted a single finger to defend the names of their holy faith....Originally posted by salivateforme:Yes, Hitler did commit suicide, I was just highlighting all the evil men who seem to share the same league as Osama. All of them do not share a common religion, but they share the same boundlessly evil ambitions. They are evil men, not evil christians or evil muslims or evil hindus or evil buddhists...
and contrary to popular belief, Milosevic did use religion to fuel his genocidal crusade...this was how he managed to convince all of his people (soldiers and civilians alike) to target the Muslim and Catholic sections of their community...
SHould not OSAMA's desecration of the islamic faith.... according to your interpretation of course..... be considered a threat to islam?? shouldnt then a jihad be declared upon OSAMA??? yet...... what do we see in this world from the eye of an outsider???
Terrorism wasnt new.... it was not born yesterday.... and neither was i..... to see the islamic world standing afar and condone such terrorist act by their very inactions... prove to me... either the islamic faith secretly backs OSAMA OR the islamic faith is full of belivers who has not the backbone to defend the good name of their ALLAH..... perhaps they feel that it is better for ALLAH's name be tarnished with the blood of innocence then to spill one's holy blood.....
For failing to defend the islamic religion against the desecration by OSAMA and his likes... i would say... the muslim worldwide has incurred the wrath of ALLAH.... soon.... ALLAH will punished the muslims worldwide... through the hands of the americans... just as GOD has punished the isrealis during biblical times through the hands of foreigners.
like the isrealis, the muslims would be killed and cast among the winds by its enemies.... for all the wisdom in the islamic faith.... the muslim failed to realise that the TRUE SATAN does not strike a faith from the outside through the hands of unbelivers.... BUT strikes from the INSIDE through the hands of the followers of the faith..... FOR IT IS WRITTEN: a castle is felled easier from within then from outside.
THe muslims are blind.... blind by their hatred, blind by their ignorance, blind by their desire for power..... they have forgotten the teachings of mohammed and GOD... they have cast their koran to the back of their mind as they speaks not of the teachings... but of the latest politics.
Woes to the muslims.... for one day... their ALLAH will strike them down and humble them before their enemies.... -
AND when the muslims saw their heros fallen to the blades and their homes burn to the ground... their fields barren and their leaders humbled.....Originally posted by tripwire:YET incredibly.... OSAMA who has no country to call his own remain widely popular in the islamic world... and even more incredibly.... the islamic world with its many mullahs and clerics..... somehow.... seems oblivious to his desecration of the islamic faith..... i wonder.... what kind of islamic followers are among the world now... that have not lifted a single finger to defend the names of their holy faith....
SHould not OSAMA's desecration of the islamic faith.... according to your interpretation of course..... be considered a threat to islam?? shouldnt then a jihad be declared upon OSAMA??? yet...... what do we see in this world from the eye of an outsider???
Terrorism wasnt new.... it was not born yesterday.... and neither was i..... to see the islamic world standing afar and condone such terrorist act by their very inactions... prove to me... either the islamic faith secretly backs OSAMA OR the islamic faith is full of belivers who has not the backbone to defend the good name of their ALLAH..... perhaps they feel that it is better for ALLAH's name be tarnished with the blood of innocence then to spill one's holy blood.....
For failing to defend the islamic religion against the desecration by OSAMA and his likes... i would say... the muslim worldwide has incurred the wrath of ALLAH.... soon.... ALLAH will punished the muslims worldwide... through the hands of the americans... just as GOD has punished the isrealis during biblical times through the hands of foreigners.
like the isrealis, the muslims would be killed and cast among the winds by its enemies.... for all the wisdom in the islamic faith.... the muslim failed to realise that the TRUE SATAN does not strike a faith from the outside through the hands of unbelivers.... BUT strikes from the INSIDE through the hands of the followers of the faith..... FOR IT IS WRITTEN: a castle is felled easier from within then from outside.
THe muslims are blind.... blind by their hatred, blind by their ignorance, blind by their desire for power..... they have forgotten the teachings of mohammed and GOD... they have cast their koran to the back of their mind as they speaks not of the teachings... but of the latest politics.
Woes to the muslims.... for one day... their ALLAH will strike them down and humble them before their enemies....
they will see their folly in placing their faiths on a human champions...
THEN.... the muslims will remember ALLAH and looks to the heavens and beg for forgiveness, mercy and deliverance.... -
You know, tripwire, in the midst of all your vehemance and angst, the opinions that you outlined are shared by most Muslims in Singapore and Malaysia. Nobody in their right mind would continue to follow a faith that consistently teaches violence and intolerance. I have the blood of our Chinese forefathers in me, but I'm also a Muslim and a Singaporean. As the Quran quite explicitly states:
"Fight those who fight against you along God's way, yet do not initiate hostilities; God does not love aggressors." (Holy Quran 2:190)
"If they stop, let there be no more hostility except towards wrongdoers." (Holy Quran 2:193)
Islam as a religion is not evil, and Muslims as a whole do not condone the violent acts of terrorists. Just as Christians are able to condemn the acts of Christian terrorists like Timothy McVie, Muslims also know how to identify what is "right" and what is "wrong"...but its often very difficult to distinguish these matters because nothing is ever black and white. True, the attack on New York does not deserve to go unpunished. True, suicide bombers in an Israeli marketplace are also horrendous acts...but equally bad is the deportation of tens of thousands of Palestinians from their native homes, the murder of scores of Muslim youths in Palestine and Jerusalem. You do not have to be a Muslim to understand the injustice of it, right? When the Chinese tanks started rolling over the student protestors in Tianemen Square, I felt the anger too, the vehemance that you posses in such generous abundance. When the planes crashed into the World Trade Centre Towers, I prayed that whoever did this will be hanged. For the culprit is nothing but a murderer.
It's easy to take the "wayward" responses of a dozen Muslims who say things like "U.S deserve it" and reflect it back on the whole community...but is this a fair deduction? I know a hundred other Muslims who condemn the attacks. In our weekly Friday prayers, we pray for justice to be done, and for god to accept the victims of the WTC.
Nobody wants these things to happen to Singapore, our beloved country. I love this place, not only because it is a baeutiful country, but it is one of the only nations in the world that manages to have a solid foundation of multi-culturism and multi-ethnicity. When we give a seat in the MRT, we don't look to see if the person who needs it is a Malay, Indian or Chinese. Our compassion and understanding are our greatest assets. And they will be our most powerful weapons in the fight that is about to come, if it comes. If the whole community, Chinese, Malay, Indian, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist treats each other with mutual respect and complete assimilation, how strong a foothold can any mad monster like Osama gain in this region.
Indeed, I am pretty sure our "crackdown" on these people will be harsher than even the U.S. Because unlike them, we have totally no qualms about hanging our criminals!!
Another thing I'd like to mention is that Allah is not an exclusivly Muslim or Malay term for god. It's an Arabic translation for god. Arab Christians and Jews call god Allah too. Just as the Chinese call their gods "shen(2)".
Well, long thread. I hope it's worth at least 2 cents...") -
Volume 9, Book 88, Number 206:Originally posted by salivateforme:You know, tripwire, in the midst of all your vehemance and angst, the opinions that you outlined are shared by most Muslims in Singapore and Malaysia. Nobody in their right mind would continue to follow a faith that consistently teaches violence and intolerance. I have the blood of our Chinese forefathers in me, but I'm also a Muslim and a Singaporean. As the Quran quite explicitly states:
"Fight those who fight against you along God's way, yet do not initiate hostilities; God does not love aggressors." (Holy Quran 2:190)
"If they stop, let there be no more hostility except towards wrongdoers." (Holy Quran 2:193)
Islam as a religion is not evil, and Muslims as a whole do not condone the violent acts of terrorists. Just as Christians are able to condemn the acts of Christian terrorists like Timothy McVie, Muslims also know how to identify what is "right" and what is "wrong"...but its often very difficult to distinguish these matters because nothing is ever black and white. True, the attack on New York does not deserve to go unpunished. True, suicide bombers in an Israeli marketplace are also horrendous acts...but equally bad is the deportation of tens of thousands of Palestinians from their native homes, the murder of scores of Muslim youths in Palestine and Jerusalem. You do not have to be a Muslim to understand the injustice of it, right? When the Chinese tanks started rolling over the student protestors in Tianemen Square, I felt the anger too, the vehemance that you posses in such generous abundance. When the planes crashed into the World Trade Centre Towers, I prayed that whoever did this will be hanged. For the culprit is nothing but a murderer.
It's easy to take the "wayward" responses of a dozen Muslims who say things like "U.S deserve it" and reflect it back on the whole community...but is this a fair deduction? I know a hundred other Muslims who condemn the attacks. In our weekly Friday prayers, we pray for justice to be done, and for god to accept the victims of the WTC.
Nobody wants these things to happen to Singapore, our beloved country. I love this place, not only because it is a baeutiful country, but it is one of the only nations in the world that manages to have a solid foundation of multi-culturism and multi-ethnicity. When we give a seat in the MRT, we don't look to see if the person who needs it is a Malay, Indian or Chinese. Our compassion and understanding are our greatest assets. And they will be our most powerful weapons in the fight that is about to come, if it comes. If the whole community, Chinese, Malay, Indian, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist treats each other with mutual respect and complete assimilation, how strong a foothold can any mad monster like Osama gain in this region.
Indeed, I am pretty sure our "crackdown" on these people will be harsher than even the U.S. Because unlike them, we have totally no qualms about hanging our criminals!!
Another thing I'd like to mention is that Allah is not an exclusivly Muslim or Malay term for god. It's an Arabic translation for god. Arab Christians and Jews call god Allah too. Just as the Chinese call their gods "shen(2)".
Well, long thread. I hope it's worth at least 2 cents...")
Narrated Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman:
The people used to ask Allah's Apostle about the good but I used to ask him about the evil lest I should be overtaken by them. So I said, "O Allah's Apostle! We were living in ignorance and in an (extremely) worst atmosphere, then Allah brought to us this good (i.e., Islam); will there be any evil after this good?" He said, "Yes." I said, 'Will there be any good after that evil?" He replied, "Yes, but it will be tainted (not pure.)'' I asked, "What will be its taint?" He replied, "(There will be) some people who will guide others not according to my tradition? You will approve of some of their deeds and disapprove of some others." I asked, "Will there be any evil after that good?" He replied, "Yes, (there will be) some people calling at the gates of the (Hell) Fire, and whoever will respond to their call, will be thrown by them into the (Hell) Fire." I said, "O Allah s Apostle! Will you describe them to us?" He said, <<<<<"They will be from our own people and will speak our language.">>>>>> I said, "What do you order me to do if such a state should take place in my life?" He said, "Stick to the group of Muslims and their Imam (ruler)." I said, "If there is neither a group of Muslims nor an Imam (ruler)?" He said, "Then turn away from all those sects even if you were to bite (eat) the roots of a tree till death overtakes you while you are in that state."
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Volume -
Hi tripwire,
I don't know whether you are aware of what you quoted in the above text. But if you would indulge me a little.
The Islamic religion derives its teachings from 2 sources. One is from the Holy Quran, which is what Muslims believe is directly inspired by God. And the other is from the hadiths, which when translated means: "traditions of the prophet".
In the hadiths, the prophet's acts and his sayings are recorded down.
You quoted a hadith that was reported by Hudhaifa bin al-Yaman. He was one of Muhammad's companions. From the quote above, it is quite easy to say that no matter what crimes Osama comitted, Muslims should stick together.
I have to point out an omission however. The hadith does not only comprise of Hudhaifa bin al-Yaman's words. To reiterate, I would have to reproduce the whole hadith:
Hudhaifa bin al-Yaman narrated: "The Prophet said, 'there will be after me leaders who do not follow my guidance and do not follow my sunna, and there will be among them men whose hearts are like those of satan in the body of a human being.' And I asked the Prophet, 'What I should do at that time if I reach it?' He said, 'listen and obey the ruler, even if he lashed your back and took your money, listen and obey.'"
The hadith continues with this narration from Auf bin Malik: "O Prophet of Allah, do you recommend that we fight them (the Muslim wrongdoers)?" He said, "No, don't fight them as long as they do not prevent you from your prayers. And if you see from them something that you dislike, dislike their acts, do not dislike them. And do not take your hand out from obedience to them."
And the hadith continues with Abdullah ibn al-Abbas's narration: "if someone dislikes his ruler, he must be patient, because if he comes against the ruler in a rebellious or destructive manner by only a handspan and dies, he dies in a state of pre-Islamic ignorance (jahiliyyah) and sin."
These source texts are clear evidence that whoever lives under a particular government must obey the ruler and live peacefully. They are prohibited from taking up arms against him. Uprising or violence by any group against the ruler is completely rejected in Islam, and was prohibited by the Prophet. Thus Islam considers rebellion against the ruler a great iniquity. These hadith affirm that one must be patient with one's ruler, even if he commits oppression. It must be understood however that these hadith refer to the LEADER of a nation, not the leader of a small group (like Osama). Therefore groups that take up violent struggle against their regimes are prohibited in Islam and are by default illegal and blameworthy.
This is because Islam is a religion of peace as stated in the Quran:
"Religion with God means a committment to live in peace." (Holy Quran 3:19)
Peace in all forms must always be perpetuated by Muslims, uprisings and rebellion is distasteful to Islam because it promotes chaos and anarchy and may result in the persecution of specific minorities like what happened in East Timor where Christians were massacred by Muslim rebels, and in Ambon where the Chinese minority was driven out of the island.
Even David Kimche, the former president of the Israel Council for Foreign Relations said:
"We have to live in peace together with Islam. Islam is a religion of peace-absolutely no question about it."
The Quran constantly exhorts Muslims to mainatin peace and never initiate hostilities:
"Fight those who fight against you along God's way, yet do not initiate hostilities; God does not love aggressors." (Holy Quran 2:190)
"If they stop, let there be no more hostility except towards wrongdoers." (Holy Quran 2:193)
So as I mentioned in my earlier threads, Osama has gone against every grain of the Islamic faith. His actions does not represent the views of the whole community. I don't think that Islam will be the fastest growing religion in the U.S today if it really promoted so much hostility, hatred and bigotry. Hehe, maybe all the new converts were brainwashed or something...
Hope I clarified for you some doubts.
[This message has been edited by salivateforme (edited 21 September 2001).] -
from his words... i see a wise man....
pray tell.... did mohammad lay down any law pertaining to murder of such a horrific scale as in the WTC bombing...
another thing is..... how come islam has fallen so far in some countries... that now the only word that comes of these muslims mouth is jihad and more jihad.... -
Cos people like to use "religious" means to gain support for their cause. And when you have fanatically religious people, who regard religion above all else, you get dumb people who are manipulated by a book, and a book manipulate by a really bad bad bastard. Osama bin Laden.
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There are many religions, and each of them claims a certain authority over the truth. Those in Europe that first claimed that the Universe did not revolve around the Earth were in danger for the peacefulness of their lives.
So, I look to the many religions, as I do not doubt that there is a vast intelligence in the Universe. And I ask myself, "How will I know the one that speaks the truth?" And the answer occurs to me as this. Just as we do not have a Universe revolving around us, we are not the center of the Universe.
And I will recognize the "true" belief when I hear of the one that does not require one to "do something about it."
Certainly, if such a religion does exist, it is not one easily heard above those whose truths force converts, or money, or power. But likely, the truth is, that there is nothing we are supposed to "do about it."
To do things in the stead of the supreme power in the Universe seems to me to be even more arrogant than to believe that the Universe revolved around the Earth. -
TRUTH DOES NOT EXIST... THERE IS NO TRUTH.... ONLY FACTS and EVENTS..... the human interpretation of the EVENTs results in the so call TRUTH....an IMPERFECT TRUTH just as human are IMPERFECT.Originally posted by TallDaniel:There are many religions, and each of them claims a certain authority over the truth. Those in Europe that first claimed that the Universe did not revolve around the Earth were in danger for the peacefulness of their lives.
So, I look to the many religions, as I do not doubt that there is a vast intelligence in the Universe. And I ask myself, "How will I know the one that speaks the truth?" And the answer occurs to me as this. Just as we do not have a Universe revolving around us, we are not the center of the Universe.
And I will recognize the "true" belief when I hear of the one that does not require one to "do something about it."
Certainly, if such a religion does exist, it is not one easily heard above those whose truths force converts, or money, or power. But likely, the truth is, that there is nothing we are supposed to "do about it."
To do things in the stead of the supreme power in the Universe seems to me to be even more arrogant than to believe that the Universe revolved around the Earth.
What is IMPERFECT TRUTH??? LIES.....