OHHH...... BUT THERE IS LINE BETWEEN freedom fighters and terrorist...Originally posted by dexter:I'm not saying that terrorists are good as they can be freedom fighters. I'm saying that they are both the same and are both equally bad. You might not view for example Milosevic as freedom fighter but some other people do. The reason why? Who cares? Thats not my point. My point is there is no clear line between freedom fighters and terrorists.
I already pointed out why he is considered a freedom fighter according to YOUR own definition. So why are you arguing? You never even specify what differentiates a freedom-fighter and a terrorists. They both fought for a cause they believe, resort to violence and take the law into their own hands. So I ask you now..what is the difference?
As for Robin Hood, he's not even a real character in a real world. We're discussing reality here. Anyway to me, stealing from the rich and giving it to the poor is morally wrong. Reminds me of the tragic event of the poor Indonesians stealing from the rich Indonesian Chinese.
Yah, an eye for an eye. How much pain they had induced on the innocents must be returned in double. Or U.S. could learn some torturing skill invented by ancient china.Originally posted by Shotgun:*applauds tripwire*
Thats my point. Robin Hood never slew innocent civilians. Only soldiers. Even though he may not be a real person, man have always drawn moral truths from fictious stories. Like the boy who cried wolf and consequently got eaten. They are stories told for all to learn.
Now let us understand the objectives of terrorism. Often enough, by targeting civilians and structures, buildings and other infrastructure, they hope to achieve in creating a state of chaos to the people of a particular country. Why do they need this chaos and social unrest? To achieve their own political agenda, to make the public lose confidence of their own government and hopefully support their cause.
Freedom Fighters, however, conduct raids against military installations and personnel. They win over the hearts of those oppressed, as well as support from some of their oppressors. They are men with a code of conduct, and honor.
Perhaps to the terrorists themselves, they consider themselves to be righteous freedom fighters, with a "god" given right to slay "infidels" and go to heaven doing so. These men have the blood of innoncents in their hands, yet they consider it a holy deed. How can one reason with those who choose not to be reasoned? How do you convince them of their wrongful cause when they are piloting your plane ready to dump it into another federal building. These people know only life and death, and to communicate with them, we have to speak their language.
------------------Originally posted by salivateforme:I hope Osama suffers the same punishment as some of the most evil men who have ever lived in this world. Same as Adolf Hitler whose "christian" supremecist ideals led to the deaths of six million Jews.
*Was Hitler punished? Didn't he commit suicide,with his mistress?
Same as Milosevic whose "crusade" against the innocent Muslim and Catholic population led to the deaths of 70,000 civilians.
*At least, he didn't justify his actions by using religion, like Hitler.
Same as Timothy McVie whose "christian" militancy led to the deaths of almost 200 schoolchildren, teacher and parents in the Oklohoma bombing.
*He is more notorious for bombing federal buidlings, really, reminds me of the NYC WTC Incident. I bet he will meet Osama and his underlings pretty soon, in Hell or Heaven, according to your beliefs.
I hope the world will be a better place!
YET incredibly.... OSAMA who has no country to call his own remain widely popular in the islamic world... and even more incredibly.... the islamic world with its many mullahs and clerics..... somehow.... seems oblivious to his desecration of the islamic faith..... i wonder.... what kind of islamic followers are among the world now... that have not lifted a single finger to defend the names of their holy faith....Originally posted by salivateforme:Yes, Hitler did commit suicide, I was just highlighting all the evil men who seem to share the same league as Osama. All of them do not share a common religion, but they share the same boundlessly evil ambitions. They are evil men, not evil christians or evil muslims or evil hindus or evil buddhists...
and contrary to popular belief, Milosevic did use religion to fuel his genocidal crusade...this was how he managed to convince all of his people (soldiers and civilians alike) to target the Muslim and Catholic sections of their community...
AND when the muslims saw their heros fallen to the blades and their homes burn to the ground... their fields barren and their leaders humbled.....Originally posted by tripwire:YET incredibly.... OSAMA who has no country to call his own remain widely popular in the islamic world... and even more incredibly.... the islamic world with its many mullahs and clerics..... somehow.... seems oblivious to his desecration of the islamic faith..... i wonder.... what kind of islamic followers are among the world now... that have not lifted a single finger to defend the names of their holy faith....
SHould not OSAMA's desecration of the islamic faith.... according to your interpretation of course..... be considered a threat to islam?? shouldnt then a jihad be declared upon OSAMA??? yet...... what do we see in this world from the eye of an outsider???
Terrorism wasnt new.... it was not born yesterday.... and neither was i..... to see the islamic world standing afar and condone such terrorist act by their very inactions... prove to me... either the islamic faith secretly backs OSAMA OR the islamic faith is full of belivers who has not the backbone to defend the good name of their ALLAH..... perhaps they feel that it is better for ALLAH's name be tarnished with the blood of innocence then to spill one's holy blood.....
For failing to defend the islamic religion against the desecration by OSAMA and his likes... i would say... the muslim worldwide has incurred the wrath of ALLAH.... soon.... ALLAH will punished the muslims worldwide... through the hands of the americans... just as GOD has punished the isrealis during biblical times through the hands of foreigners.
like the isrealis, the muslims would be killed and cast among the winds by its enemies.... for all the wisdom in the islamic faith.... the muslim failed to realise that the TRUE SATAN does not strike a faith from the outside through the hands of unbelivers.... BUT strikes from the INSIDE through the hands of the followers of the faith..... FOR IT IS WRITTEN: a castle is felled easier from within then from outside.
THe muslims are blind.... blind by their hatred, blind by their ignorance, blind by their desire for power..... they have forgotten the teachings of mohammed and GOD... they have cast their koran to the back of their mind as they speaks not of the teachings... but of the latest politics.
Woes to the muslims.... for one day... their ALLAH will strike them down and humble them before their enemies....
Volume 9, Book 88, Number 206:Originally posted by salivateforme:You know, tripwire, in the midst of all your vehemance and angst, the opinions that you outlined are shared by most Muslims in Singapore and Malaysia. Nobody in their right mind would continue to follow a faith that consistently teaches violence and intolerance. I have the blood of our Chinese forefathers in me, but I'm also a Muslim and a Singaporean. As the Quran quite explicitly states:
"Fight those who fight against you along God's way, yet do not initiate hostilities; God does not love aggressors." (Holy Quran 2:190)
"If they stop, let there be no more hostility except towards wrongdoers." (Holy Quran 2:193)
Islam as a religion is not evil, and Muslims as a whole do not condone the violent acts of terrorists. Just as Christians are able to condemn the acts of Christian terrorists like Timothy McVie, Muslims also know how to identify what is "right" and what is "wrong"...but its often very difficult to distinguish these matters because nothing is ever black and white. True, the attack on New York does not deserve to go unpunished. True, suicide bombers in an Israeli marketplace are also horrendous acts...but equally bad is the deportation of tens of thousands of Palestinians from their native homes, the murder of scores of Muslim youths in Palestine and Jerusalem. You do not have to be a Muslim to understand the injustice of it, right? When the Chinese tanks started rolling over the student protestors in Tianemen Square, I felt the anger too, the vehemance that you posses in such generous abundance. When the planes crashed into the World Trade Centre Towers, I prayed that whoever did this will be hanged. For the culprit is nothing but a murderer.
It's easy to take the "wayward" responses of a dozen Muslims who say things like "U.S deserve it" and reflect it back on the whole community...but is this a fair deduction? I know a hundred other Muslims who condemn the attacks. In our weekly Friday prayers, we pray for justice to be done, and for god to accept the victims of the WTC.
Nobody wants these things to happen to Singapore, our beloved country. I love this place, not only because it is a baeutiful country, but it is one of the only nations in the world that manages to have a solid foundation of multi-culturism and multi-ethnicity. When we give a seat in the MRT, we don't look to see if the person who needs it is a Malay, Indian or Chinese. Our compassion and understanding are our greatest assets. And they will be our most powerful weapons in the fight that is about to come, if it comes. If the whole community, Chinese, Malay, Indian, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist treats each other with mutual respect and complete assimilation, how strong a foothold can any mad monster like Osama gain in this region.
Indeed, I am pretty sure our "crackdown" on these people will be harsher than even the U.S. Because unlike them, we have totally no qualms about hanging our criminals!!
Another thing I'd like to mention is that Allah is not an exclusivly Muslim or Malay term for god. It's an Arabic translation for god. Arab Christians and Jews call god Allah too. Just as the Chinese call their gods "shen(2)".
Well, long thread. I hope it's worth at least 2 cents...")
TRUTH DOES NOT EXIST... THERE IS NO TRUTH.... ONLY FACTS and EVENTS..... the human interpretation of the EVENTs results in the so call TRUTH....an IMPERFECT TRUTH just as human are IMPERFECT.Originally posted by TallDaniel:There are many religions, and each of them claims a certain authority over the truth. Those in Europe that first claimed that the Universe did not revolve around the Earth were in danger for the peacefulness of their lives.
So, I look to the many religions, as I do not doubt that there is a vast intelligence in the Universe. And I ask myself, "How will I know the one that speaks the truth?" And the answer occurs to me as this. Just as we do not have a Universe revolving around us, we are not the center of the Universe.
And I will recognize the "true" belief when I hear of the one that does not require one to "do something about it."
Certainly, if such a religion does exist, it is not one easily heard above those whose truths force converts, or money, or power. But likely, the truth is, that there is nothing we are supposed to "do about it."
To do things in the stead of the supreme power in the Universe seems to me to be even more arrogant than to believe that the Universe revolved around the Earth.