Singapore At War
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Hahaha....LittleMan, I agree, I went up to Scotland as well, and I watched the movie yet again there, though he has been heralded to be one of the leading figures in Scottish history, but there are definitely inaccuracies in the movie itself. Just the very basic, William Wallace was supposed to be what, let's see, 6 feet 8 or something, and even his sword is taller than me already, furthermore, they wouldn't do things like painting the St. Andrew's Cross on their faces at that time, but the movie depicts one thing, i.e. the leader of the pac is an important figure, and he will be, in times of need, the one to inspire each person to do his max. Rito?
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yes, i agree ! In the Chinese Art of War, a good General is the most important asset of an army.Originally posted by Revelations:the leader of the pac is an important figure, and he will be, in times of need, the one to inspire each person to do his max. Rito?
Back to the William Wallace thingy, in fact i think Robert the Bruce may be a better leader in real life. -
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Altrex:
Can S'pore win a war? If it's in the region (the ONLY possible case), it's a no-contest. We'll win. No doubt. Why? Part of it has to do with what we can do. The more important thing is what THEY can do.[QUOTE]
I totally agree with you Altrex. Not many people knows about the inner part of the Singapore Defences. They mainly judged it out from the population, or even then younger generations. Singapore can win a war only in our region and maybe towards some other countries out there. Certainly not stronger countries. One more thing, the SAF is only used for defences, not for offences. An example, Malaysia. They might have great populations, but certainly not brains. If they ever wanna attack Singapore, they'll never use forces cause they're bound to lose. Destroying Singapore is simple. Just block off our trade route and we're done for! -
Bear in mind, before those missiles can reached us, we're already up in the air playing with them. Besides, they won't be so stupid to bomb our HDB, they'll maybe aimmed at our radar. HDB is noting in warfare. We'll laugh at our 'no brains' attackers for not bomber our radar and that gaves us a chance to whack them hard.Originally posted by John Wong:Conventional missiles are useless against us? Are you kiddin? Singapore is densely populated. How many HDB blocks do you think the enemy will have to blow down before the govt. gives up?
[This message has been edited by safpu (edited 06 April 2000).] -
You're half-right, we can win by forces due to our secret military strengths, but lose if they're clever enough to block our trade route.Originally posted by chromeheart:To Opposition Party,
If you want my opinion, my answer for all the questions = NO. -
Originally posted by safpu:
yupz, in fact our defence capability has largely disproportionated from our population.
I totally agree with you Altrex. Not many people knows about the inner part of the Singapore Defences. They mainly judged it out from the population
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at least for the moment and the near future.
the SAF is only used for defences, not for offences.
i will like to share 2 incidents with you guys :
Incident 1
an exercise between us and them. An expensive equipment fell into the sea accidently, it belonged to them. The commander asked who was willing to retrieve it. No one replied. Later he offered RM100 for the person who is willing to retrieve it. Everybody then started bidding, some said RM80, some say RM60 and it went on. Finally, a Singapore Commando Diver volunteered to retrieve it.
Incident 2
A joint exercise again. Their gun was jammed and they could not remedy it on the spot, hence they sent it back to the technician to do the job.
The 2 incidents were referred to a country which we all know. But i shall not state explicitly which country i am refering to. -
now, i believe that i was misunderstood here. i never meant that we should go "WE WILL KILL ALL INVADERS" or anything like that.
c'mon, we want the thinking soldier, not the psycho soldier. what i meant is that we CANNOT have a "we can't win so what's the pt?" attitude towards national security.
yubbadoobs, in response, so what can the govt do to change this psychological perception? well, the govt IS trying. ever seen the "On Guard" video? pure govt propaganda. woah.....the Bushmaster cannon looked damn impressive huh? but the thing is that people in the streets don't understand war in the first place. they have this tendency to look at the US. woah....big powerful military. so, s'pore has no chance. wonderful logic huh?
i don't dare to say that i understand the subtleties of war perfectly (if i do, then why the heck must i go for courses?), but given my context, perhaps better than most pple.
but what do u expect the govt to tell u? sensitive information? full display of our real capability and spark a crisis in the region? notice, we buy submarines, malaysia immediately follow suit. there's a subtle arms race in the region, we're all trying to maintain the status quo, while quietly trying to get one up on the rest. remember, we are NOT an aggressive nation. we merely make others think twice abt wanting to be aggressive to us because it probably will not be worth their trouble. if we're hurt bad, they won't be much better off.
this is very close to the famous MAD syndrome which was the cornerstone of the Cold War "stability". mutually assured destruction. no one plays a fool coz each side can destroy the other many times over.
anyway, the total defence campaign has been in place for years and there is even a total defence day in sch. what else can the govt do? anything more would be dismissed as PAP propaganda by many people, esp the skeptics in this forum.
why must the SAF be ready? anyone knows how the 1961 Cuban Missile Crisis was resolved? Kennedy refused to back down and started preparations to invade Cuba and put the US Strategic Forces on standby. Khrushchev backed down immediately. Why? coz spies told Kennedy that the Russian nuclear forces were not ready for war in the first place. Khrushchev couldn't push his luck coz he wasn't ready to fight.
likewise, the SAF must be ready at all times. though i know that some impt units still flunk their ATEC.
dil...we can't downsize the army. infantrymen die like flies remember? technological force multipliers work least in the army. at the end of the day, u still need the infantryman to charge and fight. no diff from ancient days, except with more firepower.
rallying around an inspirational leader. yupz, very good idea. MG Lim Chuan Poh is one good example. but critics will always say that he's a SAFOS. most leaders are scholars and there's always some kind of anti-scholar perception out there. just look at the "Criteria in selection of SAF Officers" thread. what do they need to do b4 pple respect them for their ability?
what will really hurt us? water, food, sea-lanes, trade, air-space. i agree.
water. if our neighbours cut off our water, what will we do? i dunno. will we fight for it? i have no idea. though i was once told by a retired full colonel that LKY once said very strong words with regards to this issue to the Malaysian CDF. no doubt, we can easily seize the water plants and hold them, but is it the correct thing to do? i really have no idea.
food. i know there's some high-level plan to maintain food supply lines, but no idea of the details. even if i know, i can't tell u.
trade. if we end up fighting, trade suffers. we lose, they lose too. we might lose more, i admit.
sea-lanes. my speciality. dun worry too much, all i will say here is losing control of the sea-lanes is one of S'pore's biggest concerns. of course MINDEF has plans to keep the sea-lanes open. at the moment, i doubt that we will really lose control. after 2009 when the frigates become fully operational, it becomes more improbable.
air-space. the service i'm most proud of is the airforce. while i'm not in it, i know that of all the 3 services, the airforce is the one really world-class. it'll take more than a few MIG-29s which can't fly to control our air-space. -
you sure take a long time to reply ...Originally posted by Altrex:now, i believe that i was misunderstood here. i never meant that we should go "WE WILL KILL ALL INVADERS" or anything like that.
btw, i know you dun mean it that way. I dun mean it literally too.
My point is, you can't judge the psychology of singaporeans in general from their every day lives. We don't go around showing our patriotism everyday. -
yupz LittleMan, indeed, people don't go around showing their patriotism everyday. Heck....I don't do that either. Patriotism and ultra-nationalism are different things.
anyway, you can judge the attitude of young S'poreans by just chatting in the streets or even in this forum. Classic example, Pokemon, Adrian xtc, Yuu_kajima. As you yourself said, if everyone was like them, you would fear for S'pore.
What I fear is that more and more people are becoming like them. The survey a few mths back on young S'poreans is misleading. I was part of that survey and their sample population is a poor reflection. They chose schools with a reputation for pride and thus more likely to have more pride in S'pore. I can't remember when I did the survey, late 97 or early 98. Either way, the 2 institutions I was in then would probably be more supportive.
What I actually think is that there's an alarming number of young S'poreans with attitude problems. What kind of figures? I don't know. That's what I'm worried about. -
LittleMan, from ur "RM100, RM60" etc., of course everyone noe it's our northern neighbour lah.
Altrex, i can tell u that it's increasing at a very very very alarming rate, u have to believe wat many young Singaporeans view on NS and defence. this trend will still be increasing unless the government do something.
and for the recent survey that Singaporeans has the same level of pride as USA. i'm sure u all noe who the majority of the interviewed are, i think they forget about us young pple.
also take the "20% dun want to be Chinese" survey. it just showed that something is "wrong" with us young pple. -
Adrian xtc,
haha ! smart that you spotted the RM60 thingy, i think i am just too careless. I am seldom so careless in this forum.
Well, nice exchanging thoughts with you guys. At the end of the day, all talks are cheap. I am leaving this forum permanently, so please dun expect me to reply any of your posts (informing you out of courtesy)
Adrian, all the best for the rest of your army life. Dun waste it away like what most pple are doing.
Altrex, i think we need more pple like you in this country. People who feel more for the nation.
All the best guys !
[This message has been edited by LittleMan (edited 07 April 2000).] -
Sighz... you guys realised something??? Malaysia is always out to make a havok with Singapore... reason??? Cause they're jealous i guess... jealous of your productivity. Don't you guys agree? They're childish, recent case over the newspaper has got nothing to do with the officals yet they send a letter to Singapore. What crap. It's between the NEWS PAPERS! Not GOVERNMENT. Don't they even learn?Originally posted by LittleMan:Adrian xtc,
haha ! smart that you spotted the RM60 thingy, i think i am just too careless. I am seldom so careless in this forum.
Well, nice exchanging thoughts with you guys. At the end of the day, all talks are cheap. I am leaving this forum permanently, so please dun expect me to reply any of your posts (informing you out of courtesy)
Adrian, all the best for the rest of your army life. Dun waste it away like what most pple are doing.
Altrex, i think we need more pple like you in this country. People who feel more for the nation.
All the best guys !
[This message has been edited by LittleMan (edited 07 April 2000).] -
andrew, Cat 1, unfortunately, is no longer what it's supposed to be. there's too much information leakage in the service and i certainly hope that i didn't contribute to it here.
i've seen confi documents being handled by NSF clerks who ain't even Cat 2A. yah...MSD pops by from now and then, but of course everything's fine by then.
if u're highly placed, pls crack down on this. -
Well, I feel it is rather obvious that people in this forum are either non-Cat 1 or used to be Cat 1, you wouldn't be in a position to discuss such issue if u r still in the forces rite...... wrong perspectives are corrected, and better solutions discussed, that is what a forum is for rite?
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nah.....my Cat 1 hasn't expired yet...and won't for a VERY long time...
though i'm quite sure i din say anything sensitive here which is privileged info, so i dun really fear MSD cracking down on me -
Singapore is on defencive means they'll wait for other country to start a war before we attack them. You don't defence all the while and wait for your deathbed do you? Singapore won't start a war! Think you got a misunderstanding here!.Originally posted by andrewtay:i think most of the postings by you all just shows that you all are just simply ignorant of the capability of SAF...i dun want to reveal too many things...but SAF is always on the offensive when we officers plan our missions...regardless of Battalion or Brigade level.
There are many sensitive matter that only CAT 1 clearance personnel can access to...so for those who r unsure, pls dun anyhow post. -
woah....andrew
well, i suppose that it depends on what's the definition of "highly placed" but well, if u're attending SCSC now, u'll definitely be in a postition to tighten up certain things in your unit when u get out.
definitely in a better position than me. i'll think about my 3rd bar first without thinking of when i'll go for my SCSC... -
I noe my post is too long from the last entry but what the heck.
Now think of this, dun care any equipment, money or help from other countries. Juz think the no. of ppl in our neighbouring countries. They add up to 100s of times of our country. and to win a war is to get ppl to fight it for u. u haf ppl, u can fight a war and u can haf a chance to win.
With so little ppl in sg's army, and the lack of enthusiasm in the army, haha i dun really think we can win. -
ok, so what's the size of Malaysia's army and what's the size of S'pore's army.Originally posted by AngelDark:Now think of this, dun care any equipment, money or help from other countries. Juz think the no. of ppl in our neighbouring countries. They add up to 100s of times of our country. and to win a war is to get ppl to fight it for u. u haf ppl, u can fight a war and u can haf a chance to win.
With so little ppl in sg's army, and the lack of enthusiasm in the army, haha i dun really think we can win.
SURPRISE!!!! unless i've VERY wrong, S'pore's army is bigger (by a significant amount...)
Indonesian army. hmm....China's army is much bigger than Taiwan's army too, so why can't China mount a cross-straits invasion realistically? the answer to that is the same common sense reason why it doesn't matter whether the Indonesian army is larger or not. moreover, how is a significant portion of the Indonesian army going to come within 50km of S'pore in the first place? they haven't got the ships to get them over.
do u know how difficult was it for the Brits to land troops on Falklands in 1982? and what kind of losses they suffered? they can wait long long and dream long long about landing a single man alive on S'pore soil.
lack of enthusiasm maybe...though i'm mildly comforted in the fact that their morale isn't much better.....
LittleMan's example is not unique. There are too many others. -
well, andrew, in this world, there'll always be supporters and critics of a system or an organisation. can't be helped.
often, misconceptions are caused by imperfect information or misrepresentation of facts. what i'm trying to do in this forum is to try to educate the uninformed out there. yet i wonder if it'll work.
yes, i must admit that many of the govt propaganda are tailor-made to look gd. examples include the level of pride in young s'poreans survey. contrary to the survey result (which i took part in), i can tell u that a really high portion of young s'poreans got ZERO pride. i'll bet my last cent that the govt actually realises this, which is why they're suddenly so "on" about national education. c'mon, in my younger education days, since when were we so concerned abt such thing? anyone remembers the "hao gong ming" textbook? heck.....
the result is an entire generation of young people who simply do not know anything and takes everything for granted. the famous s'porean complain culture.
however, when the govt tries some form of propaganda to correct this, pple just dismiss it as PAP noise.
granted, i'm a govt servant, but i'm not terribly enthusiastic abt the govt and the bureaucracy. why? the stupidity of what Creative CEO Sim Woon Hoo calls the "NUTS". No U-Turn Syndrome. inflexibility and inability to be practical and make decisions.
many people think that s'pore's useless because we're too small to be defended. granted, one wholly successful carpet bombing session will probably destroy the whole of s'pore. so will 100 SSMs.
what the average person in the streets lacks is knowledge about war. how war is actually fought at the macroscopic level (not just a man or a platoon or even a company, the WHOLE thing, tri-service and all). the factors which affect war efforts severely. and of course, something closer to s'pore's real defence capability.
even after NS (doesn't matter which vocation), it is appalling that there are still people who think that more guns equates superior armed forces (assuming they have more guns in the first place).
i may not succeed, but, without revealing something which will call MSD down on me, i will still try to prove that we CAN do it.
though i would like to see posts with ideas behind them and proper arguments, eg LittleMan's You're a Chinese so u better know your language" thread. that sparked a 100+ post argument. at the end of the day, they failed to convince each other, but it was done in a sensible way, with each parties supporting their arguments and such.
In this thread, all i've seen from skeptics are posts which argue on basis of false and shallow information, eg. their population is bigger. So? you expect your grandmas, grandpas, aunties and the road sweeper to fight?
better arguments please
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Fear leads to Anger
Anger leads to Hatred
Hatred leads to Suffering
You underestimate the Power of the Dark Side -
Anyway,you are not the only CAT 1 here and i can assure you that CAT 1 clearance now dun really mean much as has been said earlier on,i have seens people with cat 2 or lower hadle cat 1 stuff or reading about it.Battles are fought by the weapons of war,but are won by the the hearts of men.
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To add in, the survey showed that Chinese young male SGans r those with the least pride.Originally posted by Altrex:...contrary to the survey result (which i took part in), i can tell u that a really high portion of young s'poreans got ZERO pride. -
Quite true, Cat 1 doesn't mean anything now a days, Cat 1 also doesn't mean know everything.
[This message has been edited by millennium (edited 15 April 2000).] -
As far as i know,CAT 1 dun mean you have access to all top level documents,SAF always practise a need to know basis,so even if you have the required security clearance,but you dun have a need to know certain stuff,that is off limits to you.
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personally i feel that the participants in this thread are too heterogeneous. The level of understanding of this topic by the people who post here is very different.
Some people have a career in SAF, some are just students, some are officers, some are Man, some are CAT 1 cleared some are not, some are reservists, some have not even entered NS.
Which such a heterogeneous participants i doubt anything meaning will emerge at the end of the day. It is just like discussing economics with a primary school student.
My suggestion is, stop posting. But of course it is none of my biz, just kpo.
Ciao.
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"Life is about making choices. How good is your life depends on how well you make your choices" --- Belittled.