Singapore At War
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Well Solaris,Originally posted by solaris:
Hello CX I see that you too is a fan of Bismarck
lets just say that i'm an admirer of great men and my definition of "great men" are not men who wage wars, lead ears or fight wars but men who prevent them and end them but who still gains from them. Bismark is one such individual who might be considered to have succeeded in this during his tenure as chancellor.
Of course, his humiliating defeat of France led to a legacy of Franco-German animosities which persisted until WW 2... Such is a lesson of history: that a victory today might sow the seeds of mutual destruction tomorrow.
And Tripwire,
I frankly find your perception of me as "lacking confidence" amusing. Being moderate is not the same as being a mouse. I do not want to go out of my way to ferment a confrontation. The point here is to swap views so what's the point of being bigoted?
As you put it, what Sg needs is based on the situation, not on a fixed formula, which is true. But wouldn't u be basing your judgement on a narrow formula by crying the W word every time patience gets tried?
There is much to gain from exploiting opportunities which others open for you, which is the true essence of Realpolitik.
Contrary to your definition of Realpolitik where the unbelievable is happening every minutes, Realpolitik in the Bismarkian context is about recognising tangible benefits through a consistent policy of balancing power in your favour.
The unbelievable doean't happen suddenly among State players for no reason. It is the job of the intelligence services to be 100% on top of it so that opportunities can be exploited or preperations can be made.
Our northern friend did not start hating us suddenly. They always have and they are having an election soon. Why do u think the reclaimation works were started years ago and not now? Because it is well known that they raise hell every time they have an election. I don't think its a coincidence.
We fight IF it ever comes to that. Otherwise, I prefer to lead them on wild geese chases and red herrings while we enagage in more meaningful pursuits and leave them high and dry. This is Realpolitik. -
Not really... there are many way to resolve the situation after a war with malaysia.. annexation is just one of the many many cards that is available... but the best card to be played will depend on the situation at the point of time.... its somewat like a poker game... you draw new cards as the situation develope... critical judgement is required.Originally posted by solaris:Hello Tripwire
Your points are valids. It is a hopeless situation isnt it the aftermath of a war for the SAF..... full occupation and be damned...partial occupation and be damned. My question would be: what lies after full annexation of Malaysia? -
to crush a population... you dont need to kill them...Originally posted by No Frill:Well, i think victory as I defined earlier can only mean a limited occupation of malaysia rather than a full blown crushing of malaysia in total.
I mean, pushing them back far enough so as to create a physical buffer is one thing; occupying their entire country is another.
And really, I for one sincerely doubt that there is such a thing a 'totally crushing a population' so that they will not rise like 'an itch' again in the future.
Unless you are talking about the sort of destruction that the allies and the Russians visited on the Germans - leading to the total and physical destruction of everything that was German...then maybe there is a point to the madness.
But can anyone here ever envisage such an act from S'pore being committed to Malaysia?
I mean, I surely would be open to the idea that if we somehow destroyed every single iota of malaysian infrastructure and we could control the populace, then sure, sign me up and I'd gladly do the destruction - cos I would know that there is a tangible result to be obtained.
But, history has shown that the total destruction of a country ensures nothing, not the security which we crave so much.
And how are we to do something like that? We have no nukes, no strategic bombers, no WMD to ensure something like that, even if we wanted to. And thus to send in waves after waves of our soldiers to fight a politically blind war with no definite purpose is a horrible and unproductive solution.
Our economy will fall to ruin while we attempt to put down a possiblly hostile population, with no intention of submitting. Moreover, we'd lose all the moral high ground of acting in self defence if we over stay our assault. The Vietnamese were seen as 'peaceful intervenors' in 1979 in Cambodia, but then they, er, sort of like overstayed for 10 years! and they lost whatever moral mandate they started with (though i think that too was a glib lie) Further Vietnam became tied down in attritional guerilla warfare which drained their economy dry.
So i guess the only possible solution is a limited offensive aimed at carving out a huge hole in their country; then to fight a holding battle or in the worst case, a retrograde operation over a few weeks, to give time for the UN to act.
I do wistfully wish that yes, perhaps that we still lived in the lands of yore, where we as conquering hordes can sweep over the enemy's land and destroy evernthing that displeases us in our path, subjugate their populace and crush all resistance. But sigh, this unfortunate little blimp called international law has put a dent in such ambitions
to destroy an enemy's infrastructure... you dont need WMD...
they are far easier ways...... but first the MAF must be buried alive! -
I think many of the post here gives the wrong impression that many Singaporean hate Malaysian. I think more accurately, most Singaporean are just fearful. We fear for future if one day a crazy Malaysian demagogue could take power in Malaysia and threaten our fragile comfortable existence. (fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering)
However, the fear cuts both ways. The Malaysian do not like the idea of being fearful of SAF or constantly and looked upon by the few cocky Singaporean that Malaysian are inferior. The cocky Singaporean types seems to be more only because they are LOUD.
I have faith that most Malaysian like most Singaporean knows that peaceful existence is the only option. All the cocky war mongering talk is just that – TALK. Which in itself breeds fear and anger (which all of you can see clearly in the flames on this posting). And fear will lead to war and suffering.
So please all of you, stop trying to scare Malaysian and Malaysian stop trying to scare Singaporean. The only winners here I can see are the arms manufacturers. Without so much unnecessary fear, the money saved from building trust between our nations is more than enough to pay for a free basic health service in both countries.
We spend 6% GDP to line the pockets of foreign arms manufacturers and only 1% GDP to help sick Singaporean.
So for all your corky, fear inducing talk will come back to find you before you die - when you see your hospital bill. Yes, people are already suffering. Why else do you think we need the NKF when we are supposed to be ranked fourth in GDP?
So next time zip your cocky mouth for the sake of the person who will pay for your senseless pride. The weak and the sick in both our socially will pay the most. -
Totaldefense, I shall first assume that you do not or have not serve your national service. If you had serve it and yet created such a post, I am extremely disappointed in you writing such words.Originally posted by Totaldefense:I think many of the post here gives the wrong impression that many Singaporean hate Malaysian. I think more accurately, most Singaporean are just fearful. We fear for future if one day a crazy Malaysian demagogue could take power in Malaysia and threaten our fragile comfortable existence. (fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering)
However, the fear cuts both ways. The Malaysian do not like the idea of being fearful of SAF or constantly and looked upon by the few cocky Singaporean that Malaysian are inferior. The cocky Singaporean types seems to be more only because they are LOUD.
I have faith that most Malaysian like most Singaporean knows that peaceful existence is the only option. All the cocky war mongering talk is just that – TALK. Which in itself breeds fear and anger (which all of you can see clearly in the flames on this posting). And fear will lead to war and suffering.
So please all of you, stop trying to scare Malaysian and Malaysian stop trying to scare Singaporean. The only winners here I can see are the arms manufacturers. Without so much unnecessary fear, the money saved from building trust between our nations is more than enough to pay for a free basic health service in both countries.
We spend 6% GDP to line the pockets of foreign arms manufacturers and only 1% GDP to help sick Singaporean.
So for all your corky, fear inducing talk will come back to find you before you die - when you see your hospital bill. Yes, people are already suffering. Why else do you think we need the NKF when we are supposed to be ranked fourth in GDP?
So next time zip your cocky mouth for the sake of the person who will pay for your senseless pride. The weak and the sick in both our socially will pay the most.
Totaldefense, we must differentiate between wanting a wanton war and protecting ourselves by one. Your ideas can be interpreted at best ideals. Who doesn't want peace? Who here in this forum be them Malaysians or Singaporeans want to live in harmony with each other? All of course who won't want to spend more money on the ill, to treat our own citizens?
All very nicely put but sadly the situation here does not permit us to do so or to the extent we want. Look at the geopolitical climax here, which day goes by without hearing people wanting to cut off or poisoning our water supplies, calling us an irritating pimple in the south, treating relationships between nations akin to one being subordinate to the other when we are more or less on equal footing?
If you are thinking of giving way to them on certain issues, what makes you think that they will give way to us on others? Appeasment policies do not and would never work. One good example is that of Neville Chamberlain who up help such notions. In the end, not only did Germany not abide by the treaties but instead became more vorcacious in their appetite. The same principle applies in our situation here.
As history has shown, we need a strong arm to deter them. Currently, it is because of the existance of SAF that our dear neighbours have not taken the step beyond empty talk. If every Singaporean politician subscribes to your notion of peace and reduced spending, can you ensure that our neighbour's up north, who are getting more militant per day, subscribe to your notions as well?
If you want an analogy, all these purchase of weapons can be viewed as a form of "Cold War" between these two nations. Each side would at least respect the capabilities of the other and would think twice before attempting to attack. It is the best form of preventive measure we have against war.
Until the day Malaysian politicians and their press learn to respect us for who we are and whom we are and stop making all these these baseless remarks, there will be no end to these upgrading of weapons. -
***Dear Rudin, thank you for taking time to reading and replying to my humble opinion. Here is my reply.
>Totaldefense, I shall first assume that you do not or have not serve your national service. If you had serve it and yet created such a post, I am extremely disappointed in you writing such words.
*** I think you misunderstood my post. My main point was actually talking about pride and the need of some people to raise their own self esteem by looking down on our neighbor. (Cockiness of the few Singaporean)
>Totaldefense, we must differentiate between wanting a wanton war and protecting ourselves by one. Your ideas can be interpreted at best ideals. Who doesn't want peace? Who here in this forum be them Malaysians or Singaporeans want to live in harmony with each other? All of course who won't want to spend more money on the ill, to treat our own citizens?
*** Yes, same things most of the analyst said about the chances we have in building an independent prosperous Singapore after the break up with Malaysia, and have not we proven them wrong?
>All very nicely put but sadly the situation here does not permit us to do so or to the extent we want. Look at the geopolitical climax here, which day goes by without hearing people wanting to cut off or poisoning our water supplies, calling us an irritating pimple in the south, treating relationships between nations akin to one being subordinate to the other when we are more or less on equal footing?
*** Please note theses are vocal minorities. You see, news paper in Malaysia wants sale. Whipping up an emotional issue (condoned by their government) is a sure win. If most Malaysian hate us so much (like poisoning our water) – I here by announce that all Singaporean should start to worry about eating in Johor, you might just be slowly being poison by hateful Malaysian without you knowing.
>If you are thinking of giving way to them on certain issues, what makes you think that they will give way to us on others? Appeasement policies do not and would never work. One good example is that of Neville Chamberlain who up help such notions. In the end, not only did Germany not abide by the treaties but instead became more voracious in their appetite. The same principle applies in our situation here.
*** Totally agree on that point. Why do you think the USA nuked Japan? (The big stick frighten both Stalin and the Japanese Emperor into peace.) We should not appease but neither should we provoke. Hitler gain power because of the festering anger the German people have over their unfair treatment by the other major powers. Have we taken a good look at ourselves? We have people feeling unfairly treated by our northern neighbor. We produced a rapidly deployable army and air force that a mobilized Germany in 1939 would have been proud. How do you think Malaysian feel?
>As history has shown, we need a strong arm to deter them. Currently, it is because of the existance of SAF that our dear neighbours have not taken the step beyond empty talk. If every Singaporean politician subscribes to your notion of peace and reduced spending, can you ensure that our neighbour's up north, who are getting more militant per day, subscribe to your notions as well?
*** I am comfortable with the current spending we have. We are at the limit where we either hold current spending, raise taxes or go into deficit. What I do not want is Singapore being tricked like the USSR and spend itself to ruins due to its perpetual paranoid insecurity. There is never enough money you can spend to make you feel totally safe. However, there are a lot of things you can to make war less likely. Educate some of the less enlighten posters we have here whom has slam all Malaysian over the views of a very selected minority who wants to poison our water. Most Malaysian and Singaporean are honest friendly people. If we can get this message through , there will be less anger. With less anger, our South East Asian version of Hitler is far less likely to emerge. The road to the gas chambers for the Jews started with people saying hateful lies about them.FIGHT the lies by shining light on who said what and make them responsible. Rather then condemning all Malaysian. (it just works the opposite) . We need smart rebuke, just as much as we need smart bombs.
>If you want an analogy, all these purchase of weapons can be viewed as a form of "Cold War" between these two nations. Each side would at least respect the capabilities of the other and would think twice before attempting to attack. It is the best form of preventive measure we have against war.
*** Only works if you do not have a mad man on the button. Anger generated by stupid flames only encourages more mad men to come out and support even 'madder' man.
>Until the day Malaysian politicians and their press learn to respect us for who we are and whom we are and stop making all these these baseless remarks, there will be no end to these upgrading of weapons.
*** Yes....and we all should work towards that by not encourage these people. First by trying to be less cocky ourselves. Secondly, find out who said what and make them come to light. -
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Totaldefense:
[B]I think many of the post here gives the wrong impression that many Singaporean hate Malaysian. I think more accurately, most Singaporean are just fearful. We fear for future if one day a crazy Malaysian demagogue could take power in Malaysia and threaten our fragile comfortable existence. (fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering)
However, the fear cuts both ways. The Malaysian do not like the idea of being fearful of SAF or constantly and looked upon by the few cocky Singaporean that Malaysian are inferior. The cocky Singaporean types seems to be more only because they are LOUD.
I have faith that most Malaysian like most Singaporean knows that peaceful existence is the only option. All the cocky war mongering talk is just that – TALK. Which in itself breeds fear and anger (which all of you can see clearly in the flames on this posting). And fear will lead to war and suffering.
So please all of you, stop trying to scare Malaysian and Malaysian stop trying to scare Singaporean. The only winners here I can see are the arms manufacturers. Without so much unnecessary fear, the money saved from building trust between our nations is more than enough to pay for a free basic health service in both countries.
QUOTE]
Hello TotalDefense. I tend to agree with you that some of the posting that you read here tends to reek of fire and gunpowder. I too is disappointed by the tone of such posting and worry about their impact. However the majority of us here do not want war with our neighbour. It will be a catastrophe and destroy our hope of peace and stability in the region. The dicussion we are having now is a hypothetical scenario building of how Singapore can defend itself. Central to our discussion is the assumption by many of us that we will never strike unless our survival is threatend.
Regarding the defense budget - there is a reason why we spend that much money on defence. There can be no discussion on social security when the sovereignity of your country is threatened. We do not live in a geopolitical neighbourhood that do not have any forseeable threat and instability. It makes you envy the New Zealanders - perharps they are just being naive.
I admire the nobleness of your call for mutual peace and understanding but sadly reality is harsh and cruel. The chinese have a saying ~ To maintain an army for a thousand days and use it as an instant ~ The future is uncertain and unsure. You might call upon us to look at Europe as an example where peaceful cooperation can reap prosperity but bear in mind that it took over 500 years since the rise of the nation states in Europe to reach the level at which they are now.
I am certain you are aware that Singapore cannot tolerate a defeat in war - zero sum game for us. The purpose of such huge investment is to reduce the chance of such happening. -
>>>> you dream too much.... by your idealism... the whole fucking world can live in total peace without war.... but history has shown a different reality... one written in blood.... is it not said... beware of romans... bearing gifts??Originally posted by Totaldefense:***Dear Rudin, thank you for taking time to reading and replying to my humble opinion. Here is my reply.
*** I think you misunderstood my post. My main point was actually talking about pride and the need of some people to raise their own self esteem by looking down on our neighbor. (Cockiness of the few Singaporean)
>>>> LET me guess... you are mohd. ghandi?? open your small eye and see the not so few malaysians that seems so willing to vote for politicians that uses anti-singapore rethorics?? if they are the minority.... geez... those malaysian politician must be pretty dumb right?? but then... who is the dumb ass... the one who assume blindly that such people are the minority?? or the one who sees the power of the mass media???
*** Yes, same things most of the analyst said about the chances we have in building an independent prosperous Singapore after the break up with Malaysia, and have not we proven them wrong?
>>>> irrelevant point..... why dont you try sleeping with your gates open... if you have no gates.. you dont have to spend on paying for a gate... you will then have more money for your ice-kachang!! .... IF the robbers or thiefs havent kindly relieve you of that $$$.... yet.
*** Please note theses are vocal minorities. You see, news paper in Malaysia wants sale. Whipping up an emotional issue (condoned by their government) is a sure win. If most Malaysian hate us so much (like poisoning our water) ?I here by announce that all Singaporean should start to worry about eating in Johor, you might just be slowly being poison by hateful Malaysian without you knowing.
>>>> oh..... newspaper in malaysia only want sales... politicians only want votes... so... lets not take them seriously.... geez... how naive the malaysians must be... to be played up by their papers and politician.. maybe you should go over there and preach them the 'truth'!! tell the malaysian that the leaders are nothing more then liers and their country is being decieved!!
>>>> Truth for your information is perceptive and relative... one man's truth is another man's lie... so wat if you knew the truth?? those malaysians will still clamour , fight and even die for their so call 'truth'!! in this world... everyone is fighting for truth... soldier on both opposing side believe that each is fight for a just cause.....
>>>> And if malaysia starts to poison out water.... pray tell me... how are you gonna stop them?? preach?? for your information... there are many types of poison.. the slow acting ones...acts through cummulative effect that takes years to show effect... and the fast acting one... which kills instantly.... tell...me... are you sure your water dont contain any slow poison??
*** Totally agree on that point. Why do you think the USA nuked Japan? (The big stick frighten both Stalin and the Japanese Emperor into peace.) We should not appease but neither should we provoke. Hitler gain power because of the festering anger the German people have over their unfair treatment by the other major powers. Have we taken a good look at ourselves? We have people feeling unfairly treated by our northern neighbor. We produced a rapidly deployable army and air force that a mobilized Germany in 1939 would have been proud. How do you think Malaysian feel?
>>>> hitler gains power not because of the unfair treatment of germans after WW1.... hitler gains power through mass media!! presenting himself as a saviour.... the key to galvanating your nation to war is by presenting asymmetrical information!!... which is wat malaysia officials are currently doing.... !!! they present their views... but not singapore's view....
*** I am comfortable with the current spending we have. We are at the limit where we either hold current spending, raise taxes or go into deficit. What I do not want is Singapore being tricked like the USSR and spend itself to ruins due to its perpetual paranoid insecurity. There is never enough money you can spend to make you feel totally safe. However, there are a lot of things you can to make war less likely. Educate some of the less enlighten posters we have here whom has slam all Malaysian over the views of a very selected minority who wants to poison our water. Most Malaysian and Singaporean are honest friendly people. If we can get this message through , there will be less anger. With less anger, our South East Asian version of Hitler is far less likely to emerge. The road to the gas chambers for the Jews started with people saying hateful lies about them.FIGHT the lies by shining light on who said what and make them responsible. Rather then condemning all Malaysian. (it just works the opposite) . We need smart rebuke, just as much as we need smart bombs.
>>>> fight the lies with shining light!!... wwuuu..... you got the ears of all the malaysian har?? waaah,,,, talk so big.... you remind me of a pino who once said to me that phillipine is the light of democracy and freedom of SEA!! *puke*
>>>> it is said... that truth is a 3 edge sword.... it cuts both sides and itself...
*** Only works if you do not have a mad man on the button. Anger generated by stupid flames only encourages more mad men to come out and support even 'madder' man.
>>>> there is one tiny problem... the term MAD is relative as well... when hitler annex czechoslovakia... the word ... MAD never came into the mind of the germans or europeans... everyone think hitler outmanoveur chambalain brilliantly through brinkmanship!!! on the other man... many brits think that chambalain is MAD to cave in to hitler's demand!! but after the war... chambalain is considered WEAK for giving into hitler... who after the war is deemed MAD!! hahahaaaa.........
*** Yes....and we all should work towards that by not encourage these people. First by trying to be less cocky ourselves. Secondly, find out who said what and make them come to light.
[This message has been edited by tripwire (edited 01 May 2002).] -
Hello TripWire....don't tripOriginally posted by tripwire:>>>> you dream too much.... by your idealism... the whole fucking world can live in total peace without war.... but history has shown a different reality... one written in blood.... is it not said... beware of romans... bearing gifts??
[This message has been edited by tripwire (edited 01 May 2002).] and cool down. After all everyone is entitled to their own views and total defense is not being abusive..perharps a little bit on the naive side but that is not a heinous crime
Beware of 'Romans bearing Gifts'...i think it was a quote presented to Cleopatra...can't think of the originator though -
Tripwire,
You are paranoid...
Sure, Hitler's nuts... he starts off ok, but he went berserk after awhile but I seriously do not see any Hitler wannabes across the causeway so I don't think it is constructive to keep hammering them until the conditions are ripe for them to create one, thanks to us.
Being constructive is not the same as appeasement. You keep harping on their ill intentions without considering for one minute if it suits their interest to poison our water, invade us, etc, etc...
Sure, they CAN do it. But they won't until driven to desperation so why do u propose doing just that? That which will destroy both us and them.
Why do you think Sg practices "defence creep" ? For fun? So we don't unnecessarily raise alarm and make enemies where none existed before!
Jingoistic Fascist. -
hey does anyone know of a good malaysian online forum site? It would be interesting to see the views of ordinary malaysians on such issues
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hitler is no nuts.... he is simply creative so to speak.... but bite off more then he can chew after a winning streak...Originally posted by CX:Tripwire,
You are paranoid...
Sure, Hitler's nuts... he starts off ok, but he went berserk after awhile but I seriously do not see any Hitler wannabes across the causeway so I don't think it is constructive to keep hammering them until the conditions are ripe for them to create one, thanks to us.
Being constructive is not the same as appeasement. You keep harping on their ill intentions without considering for one minute if it suits their interest to poison our water, invade us, etc, etc...
Sure, they CAN do it. But they won't until driven to desperation so why do u propose doing just that? That which will destroy both us and them.
Why do you think Sg practices "defence creep" ? For fun? So we don't unnecessarily raise alarm and make enemies where none existed before!
Jingoistic Fascist.
on the other hand... thankfully there are no hitler wannabes across the causeway... just a few wanna be OSama bin ladin....
BUT.... enough fire for the moment... while the malaysian govt and press really overdid it this time round... thankfully mad hatter was around to cool thing off....
True.... he was the one who started it... for reasons only he knows... but .... recently it seems to me that... he is attempting to cool the hotheads in malaysian press.... twice so far... first was on pulau pisang... he consider it a non issue despite the kerosene the malaysian press has been pouring on it.. and the second time was on air traffic control over malaysia... where he simply wave it off....
He probably just wanted some issue to be played up for his local audience... but it seems the press has an idea of its own and overplay the fire.... in the end... madhatter has to play the role of both the accuser and defender of singapore..... least some Osama wannabes tried something on singapore and mad hatter finds himself in an underground bunker instead of his usual office when SAF decides to shoot first and ask questions later....
but... its truely dangerous to play such a game.... one error is all it takes to trigger off an all out war... and once the war starts... it will be hard to stop.
Hopefully SM lee went to USA to just visit visit and not there to get some sort of US approval for an all out SAF occupation of malaysia.... it wont be nice.... at least the view of the bunker from maharaja's point of view. -
Hitler WAS nuts... that has been proven. Congenital insanity due to both his parents being closely related and posthumous diagnosis of manic depression. He won when he let his generals do the fighting and when they bit off more than they could chew, he insisted on running the show himself and the matter steadily got worse.
Mahathir is one of the most moderate person Sg has to work with. He's opportunistic, Yes, but who isn't? So he plays the Sg card everytime he needs to win the elections... not a bad idea 'cos if he doesn't and PAS wins, its much worse for Sg.
Don't think in terms of definite enemies when assessing the region. Its a lot more ambiguous. Mahathir is the lesser of 2 evils now.
I wouldn't blame him for being opportunistic... I just won't like it when it translates to more expensive water. Lets not kid ourselves... its not about goodwill and neighbourliness, but business. Thats all it is.
All that crap about Sg going by the book and not being "sensitive"... its crap. They don't want flexibility. They want more attractive terms for their water. DuH... Its not a diplomatic crisis. Its business.
Mahathir's got a planned visit to the white house too... Bush wants to "cultivate" moderate Islamic leaders.
That tells us both about Mahathir's opportunism and his commitment to a moderate form of government 'cos it suits the best interest of his party and their perceived best interest of the country.
I wouldn't worry about a war just yet. No 2 countries that both has Macdonalds has fought a war with each other yet. -
Ah the Macdonalds theory of conflict. Another Friedman convert i see
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Some thoughts on reservist (operationally ready national service if you like) training, the SAF, war and peace.
I don't like the SAF as an organisation (in fact, i quite detest it) because i have had some very bad experiences whilst under its power, and so I don't like having to go for my annual ICT. But after thinking about it, i have come to the conclusion that although i don't like the SAF, i should take my training seriously. If it has to be done, then i should do it properly and not go into reservist boh-chap mode.
I am not a propaganda writer for the SAF or the PAP, this is just my honest opinion.
Singapore's defence policy rests on a number of basic strategies: total defence, diplomacy, and deterrance. The deterrance bit is the part that the SAF is responsible for. In order to deter potential adversaries from going to war against Singapore, we need to show that have a credible war machine. We sometimes think that we can bo-chap during reservist time, and that in the event of war breaking out we will then be on the ball because Singapore's defence will then be at stake. However, what we should be trying to defend against is not so much some potential outside enemy, but war itself. And what we should be defending should not be limited to Singapore, but rather peace for all mankind, including other countries. And so it is actually the peace-time training that is more crucial for defence. When we are doing our reservist training, we are actively defending Singapore and keeping the peace at that point in time. If a war ever starts, then in a sense we have failed in our defence of Singapore and in our defence of peace.
If war is the enemy, then we also have to take precautions that we do not contribute towards starting one ourselves. Armed forces can be used as a deterrant, but they can also be used for aggression. They can also be used as political tools, to put pressure on others by acting as an implied threat. And although they can act as a deterrant, they can also be perceived as a threat which needs to be attacked and eliminated. If we want to defend against war, then we need to find some kind of balance. Armed forces should not be used as a tool for applying political pressure. They should not adopt an aggressive or threatening stance towards others. Buying too many offensive weapons will only encourage an arms race. If the SAF becomes too powerful relative to the armed forces of other countries, Singapore's politicians may find it more easy to start a war in a moment of folly, or to start a war under lesser provocation than would otherwise be necessary to induce them to start one. Thereofre i view the recent announcements that the Malaysian are buying more modern arms with mixed feelings. Those arms can be seen as a potential threat to Singapore, but on the other hand, they may help maintain the regional balance of threats and help make it less likely that Singapore will start a war. -
I was just being facetious... I believe I have posted in opposition to Friedman-type remarks before... I don't agree with everything he says of course... especially some of his NY times edititorials...Originally posted by No Frill:Ah the Macdonalds theory of conflict. Another Friedman convert i see
The point of course, is not Friedman or Macdonalds, but what people fight war for these days?
The hot-spots are ever present, but the conditions for their combustion are not. What I can see on the horizon is not a shooting war, but a trade war...
Everybody wants a piece of the pie and its true that Sg holds a disproportionately large piece of it presently... We perceive that as an area of vital interest and are not willing to yield it and they think that we're not playing fair. Well, its not a perfect world so "fair" is relative... but they are trying very hard to compete with us.
I think the arms purchases are a side-show... the real battle is now fought in the board rooms and on the stock markets. That will be the tip of their, as well as our spearhead. -
just read in the papers today that japan will be offered Aegis shipboard weapons systems by the US.
oh man if only S'pore can have 1 Aegis destroyer hehehe...that will make your neibours up north go bonkers!
S'pore will then lighten the load for the US navy & patrol the Malacca Straits. a strong S'pore navy of 1 Agegis destroyer & 6 french/Spore frigates. i'll bet you that mahathir won't mention the "W" word anymore.
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"Is it me or the sword you want?"~Jen Yu
CROUCHING TIGER HIDDEN DRAGON -
yup sg get 1 agegis destroyer will doOriginally posted by mooncake:just read in the papers today that japan will be offered Aegis shipboard weapons systems by the US.
oh man if only S'pore can have 1 Aegis destroyer hehehe...that will make your neibours up north go bonkers!
S'pore will then lighten the load for the US navy & patrol the Malacca Straits. a strong S'pore navy of 1 Agegis destroyer & 6 french/Spore frigates. i'll bet you that mahathir won't mention the "W" word anymore. -
2 mininum if you really want to get it. (I suspect RSN will not be that "crazy" to go for it anyway). Having 2 means that when 1 is in the dock (naval base) for resupply or change crews, the other is out there on active duties. When the things get a little hot and we can always have 1 in the Malacca Straits and 1 in the South China Sea or just at the North East tip of SIngapore Straits..Originally posted by lionelow:yup sg get 1 agegis destroyer will do
Putting things into perspective... there is no chance that RSN will purchase the DD51 destroyer. However, RSN can purchase a less ambitious ship like the German Meko 200 or Spanish F100 AAW frigates carrying AEGIS like 3D phased array radar and Standard 2 SAM. But then again, it is also quite unlikely -
Thats a really lame wish 'cos (a) ... Its a big ship and we won't have the manpower to man it and (b) its expensive and a waste of money. It can track 200 targets at a time... wow... as if there are 200 targets for us to hit all at once. Overkill!Originally posted by mooncake:just read in the papers today that japan will be offered Aegis shipboard weapons systems by the US.
oh man if only S'pore can have 1 Aegis destroyer hehehe...that will make your neibours up north go bonkers!
S'pore will then lighten the load for the US navy & patrol the Malacca Straits. a strong S'pore navy of 1 Agegis destroyer & 6 french/Spore frigates. i'll bet you that mahathir won't mention the "W" word anymore.
Japan's buying it 'cos China's right next door and US wants to cultivate its anti-missile capabilities against China... It makes more sense to buy stuff to suit our needs than to buy stuff to look good... The day Sg does something stupid like that, you can start calling the defence minister mohammad.
[This message has been edited by CX (edited 02 May 2002).] -
Originally posted by CX:
100 targets lah... 200 is a little over exaggerated.
Thats a really lame wish 'cos (a) ... Its a big ship and we won't have the manpower to man it and (b) its expensive and a waste of money. It can track 200 targets at a time... wow... as if there are 200 targets for us to hit all at once. Overkill!
hee...hee... good comment
The day Sg does something stupid like that, you can start calling the defence minister mohammad. I like this remark!!!! -
Eh, Yes it can track 100 targets. But thats not the most important part. The most important part is that an Aegis Destroyer/Cruiser can engage that airborne target accurately. Even if it misses, the radar will ensure the pilot will start having 2 headed kids after the war.
About one of the previous post...
"Congenital insanity due to both his parents being closely related and posthumous diagnosis of manic depression." First of all, hitler's remains were never totally ascertain to be him. Which means, whoever who did the posthumous diagnosis of him, (quite remarkably.) may not be diagnosing the right man.
My opinion of the whole war with Malaysia thing: Singapore must maintain the highest state of readiness possible. We cannot kill our economy by making sudden military call ups everytime someone up north says something threatening. Our men must be able to focus on the economy, work in peace, but able to heed the call to arms at lightning pace. Every false alarm that we call them up for, hurts them, and hurts Singapore.
In anycase, if both Singapore and Malaysia can see "War" as the mutual enemy, instead of each other, we wouldn't have to be here discussing this. -
How the F did you expect anyone to diagnose a mental disorder through physical remains!Originally posted by Shotgun:About one of the previous post...
"Congenital insanity due to both his parents being closely related and posthumous diagnosis of manic depression." First of all, hitler's remains were never totally ascertain to be him. Which means, whoever who did the posthumous diagnosis of him, (quite remarkably.) may not be diagnosing the right man.
Of course that was not how it was done! It was done through a systematic investigation of his geneology and the medical records of his relatives (his mother suffered from similar symptoms), interview of people who knew him (and survived the Nuremburg war trials) and recordings of his speeches (he wrote his own speeches and often spoke impromptu) as well as through surviving medical records of Hitler himself. His private physician prescribed Hitler some really funky stuff during his lifetime...
Now I know that such findings are not always 100% accurate considering that he was dead by the time people got around to doing this and the testimonies of others might not always be objective but despite all this, they were remarkably consistent so these findings were generally well accepted in academic circles. -
ah...so do u believe that hitler is a closet gay too? =)
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Latest... from the papers... maharaja says that there are more then one way to skin a cat (singapore lah... the lion city)....
So it would appear that the lion city has just become the cat city in mahatir's eye.... so much for mutual respect hahahahaaa.....
Looks like this singapore cat.... needs to seriously wake up and set up some mouse traps against those northern rats....