water talks: if only it could
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sarcasmOriginally posted by CX:i think being nice to each other is far from everyone's minds now...
\Sar"casm\, n. [F. sarcasme, L. sarcasmus, Gr. sarkasmo`s, from sarka`zein to tear flesh like dogs, to bite the lips in rage, to speak bitterly, to sneer, fr. sa`rx, sa`rkos, flesh.] A keen, reproachful expression; a satirical remark uttered with some degree of scorn or contempt; a taunt; a gibe; a cutting jest. -
hey, who actually believes ads anyway?
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Originally Quoted by Gun
Gun Gun Gun, I took my message entirely from the ST. I am quoting it verbatim and I even printed the entire message for all to read.
Ken ken ken, in case you got lost again, the Singapore booklet was in bookstores since early 2003 and later made available online at below MITA link. It is NOT a recent publication.
Down/l it and have a good read before coming back with your application of Newton's 1st Law of motion on the dynamics of politics.
So why KL chooses this moment and 6 months of delay before coming up with their adverts ?!
Could this be the work of Einstein's Theory of Relativity where KL's belated respone is due to the effect of the curvature of space time when it fell into its own gravitation mass of blackhole ?
We know you have problems believing in the ST too .. believe me, most of us have the same problem. The puncturing of your dreams by your own people is especially disheartening.
So if you want to dispute the facts, please write a letter to the Straits Times to ask them of the clarification.
The ST were the ones that gave the sequence of events. The ST were the ones who said that it was 3 months after the booklet was published by our side that the Malaysians came up with the advertistment campaign. So we may have to wonder if we have some communication breakdown between the Communications ministry and MITA. -
Originally posted by kenhor:
Ken, pls go figure this urself, i am not here to provide psychological consultation for lapses in logical persuasion.
So we may have to wonder if we have some communication breakdown between the Communications ministry and MITA.
[size=large]SGP MFA comment, 14 Jul 03
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"We have set out all the facts and released all the letters and diplomatic exchanges in Foreign Minister Jayakumar's Parliamentary Statement on 25 January 2003. The facts are all on the record. Everyone can judge for themselves what is the truth of the matter......"
"But instead of following up, they have resorted, six months later. , to this ad campaign.This is puzzling. The MITA booklet was published three months ago. It contains nothing that was not in the 25 January 2003 Parliamentary Statement."
Ken, we are not talking about a dream here, it is about fact, a fact that KL must face in a court which it now apparently had avoided.
Have u ever seen a gov-gov dispute settled thru press advertising bliz ????
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Originally quoted by Gun
Here you go, you yourself said it .. the booklet was published 3 months ago. Thanks for answering the question yourself.
The MITA booklet was published three months ago -
You are welcomedOriginally posted by kenhor:Here you go, you yourself said it .. the booklet was published 3 months ago. Thanks for answering the question yourself.
But wait! Why siphon out the rest of my emphasis ?
Having fail to focus on the fact at hand and then diverging to a dreamy state of speculation about "communication breakdown" between Singapore's ministries surely doesn't play well to any tangible songs that you been singing so far.
"Me gets nothing, She gets rich"...doesn't that sound stranglely familiar of a love song ? -
The Malaysian Government is behaving in very strange ways in their insistent portrayal of being the victim in this "water talks".
For a while, I had to ask if we had missed any opportunity of settlement with the Malaysian by not meeting them half way or all the way in the negotiations that have been conducted.
Yet the documents released by the Singapore Government have revealed that we were prepared to accept a higher price then the THREE Cents per 1000 gallons or RAW water that the Malaysian Government are complaining about.
We have agreed even to change the price to 40 cents per 1000 gallons of RAW water for current supply up to 2011, even though the present agreement allow us to purchase the same at 3 cents per 1000 gallons.
We even agreed to increase the price 5 times higher then 40 cents per 1000 gallons for the water price beyond 2011, and still the Malaysian Government wanted an even higher price of Ringgit 8 per 1000 gallons of RAW water that is 2600 times more than the current agreement of 3 cents per 1000 gallons.
By feeding the Malaysian population with the information through this current advertisement campaign, the Malaysian Government have not resolved nor made any direct reply to the issues raised in the Singapore booklet.
Instead, the advertisement campaign is like a loud and noisy campaign of high profile publicity in a 3-D smoke and sound show as offered in any Michael Jackson staged shows; and the Malaysians simply love this kind of shows.
It serves the purpose of the Malaysian Government to regain their own face and pride, having been slapped with the facts; all they need to do now is let the situation boil, and conceal their hurt pride with the steam that must come up from the boiling water.
They will let the situation continue until the first agreement run out in 2011, and strategise their next move from there on. -
To Gun,
I am awaiting the next step by our government to explain why printing the booklet "Water Talks: If Only It Could" was neccessary. Since as you put it, all the data is in the MITA homepage already, and nothing on the booklet was new, why was there any need to print the booklet. -
To atobe,
The Malaysian political insiders already said that Singapore made a mistake by publishing the booklet at this particular time. Dr M is going out and Badawi is not yet ready to consolidate power. By throwing that booklet, it caused the new leader a lot of embaressment and he has to respond. And we know their election is around the corner. Why did we seek to provoke them?
Bad timing.
Badawi is a moderate. He has done much already to cool things between Malaysia and Singapore. He talks more sense than their current foreign minister. But humans can only go so far before face must be given. Hence the booklet came at a wrong time.
Now my only question is why did we publish the booklet at that time? What happen in Singapore (or Malaysia) 3 months ago that promted us to stroke the fires? It was in April, and that was before the SARS incidents. What happen? -
Go figure this urselfOriginally posted by kenhor:I am awaiting the next step by our government to explain why printing the booklet ... was neccessary. ...why was there any need to print the booklet.
MITA Press Release
"(MITA) spokesman observed that whilst Prof Jayakumar's statement and documents were widely reported in the Singapore media, the actual documents and details of negotiations were not easily accessible to most people in Singapore and beyond. The Ministry was hopeful that the compilation of documents and its wide circulation would give as many people as possible an opportunity to weigh the facts and make their own judgement on the truth behind the negotiations." -
Originally posted by kenhor:
Embarassed ? The Malaysian gov?
To atobe,
The Malaysian political insiders already said that Singapore made a mistake by publishing the booklet at this particular time."
...by throwing that booklet, it caused the new leader a lot of embaressment and he has to respond.
If they are, good for them, if not, then maybe next time when they try to be a little more consistent in their position when comes to international negotiation skill
Did u heard lately what DrM has to say about the advert ?
"It may be old but they (Singapore) should have told us about it. Many people don't know, so it must be new to a lot of people,"(Quoted from PETALING JAYA, July 17, NST)
Didn't Singapore's booklet did just that ? The booklet speaks for itself, which detail the chain of events beginning 2002. KL didn't even dare to challenge the Book's content in their 1-week advert campaign. WHY ? Embarassed ? -
Originally posted by Atobe:
Do they also do moonwalking dance routine in their Never-never-land ?
the advertisement campaign is like a loud and noisy campaign of high profile publicity in a 3-D smoke and sound show as offered in any Michael Jackson staged shows; and the Malaysians simply love this kind of shows
For the Booklet, the content presented and the 2-year long offical correspondence between LKY, DrM, GCT and other government bodies, it got me worried. Very worried.
It was like reading a prelude to a War. -
Originally posted by kenhor:
I wonder which is more embarrassing for Badawi. Having the booklet published when hes still DPM, or waiting till after he becomes PM and after the election?
To atobe,
The Malaysian political insiders already said that Singapore made a mistake by publishing the booklet at this particular time. Dr M is going out and Badawi is not yet ready to consolidate power. By throwing that booklet, it caused the new leader a lot of embaressment and he has to respond. And we know their election is around the corner. Why did we seek to provoke them?
[b]Bad timing.
Badawi is a moderate. He has done much already to cool things between Malaysia and Singapore. He talks more sense than their current foreign minister. But humans can only go so far before face must be given. Hence the booklet came at a wrong time.
Now my only question is why did we publish the booklet at that time? What happen in Singapore (or Malaysia) 3 months ago that promted us to stroke the fires? It was in April, and that was before the SARS incidents. What happen?[/b]
Sure, the best case scenario for him would be for us to not publish the booklet at all, but given the half-truths/outright lies spouted continually by the Malaysian media, had we remained silent, would it be good for us? -
Since in Singapore, already we have a problem with communicating the government's stance to the public, and we are the most wired nation in SEA, doubtless it will be magnified in a bigger country in terms of population and size. And that should answer the puzzlement that our ministers have with Malaysia's advertistments. They can also claim to be giving as many people as possible the opportunity to weigh the facts and make their own judgement on the truth behind the negotiations.
Originally quoted by Gun
"(MITA) spokesman observed that whilst Prof Jayakumar's statement and documents were widely reported in the Singapore media, the actual documents and details of negotiations were not easily accessible to most people in Singapore and beyond. The Ministry was hopeful that the compilation of documents and its wide circulation would give as many people as possible an opportunity to weigh the facts and make their own judgement on the truth behind the negotiations." -
That is an assumption that things will remain the same if Badawi is in control. Right now, the entire cabinet is full of Dr M era people. Already some of his gang are going. It would have been nice to have given him (Badawi) a chance not to go down the same path.
Originally quoted by Viper52
I wonder which is more embarrassing for Badawi. Having the booklet published when hes still DPM, or waiting till after he becomes PM and after the election?
Sure, the best case scenario for him would be for us to not publish the booklet at all, but given the half-truths/outright lies spouted continually by the Malaysian media, had we remained silent, would it be good for us?
But unfortunately, we screwed up that chance. We did not understand enough of Malaysian politics in order to weigh the options and see what kind of person Badawi is before we struck. Already he said that both countries are interwined. We were looking at the possibility in a thaw of relations.
Now, all that is gone with the cast of the dice. Both sides won't back down. The only hope is that something bigger happens in the world to distract both sides enough so that constructive work can begin again.
I only hope that their ministry of foreign affairs keeping quiet at this time means that diplomacy is quietly at work. Its the moderates that can keep the process of peace running, despite the attempts of hardliners from both sides stirring the pot. -
I tink malaysia is just too much....hu ask them to set the price such as tt if they tink its not right?they must not haf been able to plan properly...Those *toot*....
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each side can and should do what they feel is right.. at the point of time... including the potential consequence of their actions...
YET.....
the future is not predictable....
badawi's character is also not predictable...
though man's actions are confined by the environment they are in.. they still have many choices.. i see the singapore MITA booklet publication and malaysian ad blitz as such.
THERE is no prove.. that had another option been taken... a more favourable alternate outcome might occur... even if we believe or hope so... it is not definite.
hindsightning does not change anything.. nor will it lead to more predictable future...
the only judgement that is valid is... who is giving the entire facts without bias.. and let the reciever of the information.. make their own judgement....without coercion, manipulation or asymmetrical disinformation.. -
The Malaysian political insiders(?) always have brilliant comments to make without accepting the facts as the world sees it.Originally posted by kenhor:To atobe,
The Malaysian political insiders already said that Singapore made a mistake by publishing the booklet at this particular time. Dr M is going out and Badawi is not yet ready to consolidate power. By throwing that booklet, it caused the new leader a lot of embaressment and he has to respond. And we know their election is around the corner. Why did we seek to provoke them?
There are always reasons and excuses from which they use to avoid the real issues, quite typical of them - which amounts to seeing a doctor to get a Medical Certificate (Leave) to avoid settling the problems.Bad timing.
When is there ever a right time, considering that they continuously make speeches putting us in a poor light on the Water Issues at all levels - from the kampung events to state sanctioned ceremonies, to speaking off-the-cuff to reporters at national events.
Badawi is a moderate. He has done much already to cool things between Malaysia and Singapore. He talks more sense than their current foreign minister. But humans can only go so far before face must be given. Hence the booklet came at a wrong time.
Now my only question is why did we publish the booklet at that time? What happen in Singapore (or Malaysia) 3 months ago that promted us to stroke the fires? It was in April, and that was before the SARS incidents. What happen?[/b]
Not all in Malaysia is as wired up as we are in Singapore, and I doubt if the various national newspapers will sell similar advertisement space to the Singapore High Commission in Kuala Lumpur, to allow us to advertise our side of the story to refute the many speeches and unofficial remarks at the grass root level in Malaysia.
Such purposeful misleading political activities at the grass root level can poison the "People-to-People" relationship between Malaysia and Singapore.
What other choice does Singapore have to bring the issues out clearly to the Malaysians, and even then how many of these books will be in the hands of the Malaysians - if these books are intended for them in the first place ?
Did our Singapore MITA specifically said that these books were intended for the Malaysian "market" ?
Is this another case of Malaysia interfering again in our domestic affair of publishing these books for our "own internal" consumption ? -
just respond to their allegations coolly, efficiently and cost-effectively... maintain our position firmly, strongly and factually...without going overboard... or emotional.
in the end.. they wont be able to do anything about it... neither can they change anything...
the more they scream... they louder they scream.. they more hysterical and nuisance they will become...
after afew years...unless they go to war to resolve the matter, (which would put them in a horrible light in global media ) they will look weak, stupid and incompetent not only to malaysians but to the whole world...
technically... i dont know wat the malaysian govt is trying to proof to the world... that they as a sovereign nation.. cant stand up to a country 1/500th its size??? they gotta be kidding right?? or their govt... are full of monkeys??
maybe we should advice the indonesians that the time is ripe for indonesia to grab east malaysia... since now.. malaysia is so full of incompetent and retarded leaders.... -
As far as i concerned its just a waste of money for the malaysian government. Think abt how much they have spent on the ads, if i were the newspaper i would be more than happy to recieve requests for full page ads lol
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You must understand who owns those Malaysian Papers - another way of channeling money from the Government Treasury into a commercial unit, then zapped away into the some other account, and another slate of hand better than David Copperfield.Originally posted by Forever84:As far as i concerned its just a waste of money for the malaysian government. Think abt how much they have spent on the ads, if i were the newspaper i would be more than happy to recieve requests for full page ads lol -
ken ken ken, here you go shoting off a version of affair that is fair removed from reality. Hasn't it occur to you that even with modern communication, mis-information is the name of the game in today's wired world, nevermind backward Malaysian kampongs or cyberclass patrajaya districts ?Originally posted by kenhor:Since in Singapore, already we have a problem with communicating the government's stance to the public, and we are the most wired nation in SEA, doubtless it will be magnified in a bigger country in terms of population and size. And that should answer the puzzlement that our ministers have with Malaysia's advertistments. They can also claim to be giving as many people as possible the opportunity to weigh the facts and make their own judgement on the truth behind the negotiations.
Do go read up that 20-page booklet from Malaysia's NEAC and make an honest comparison with the content presented by Singapore's 80-plus page publishing. This episode of booklet-vs-booklet has become obvious to many reader that how any well-documentated events and minutes of meeting can easily be mis-represented to those un- or ill informed (Malaysians ? ). In fact, this epitomises the difference of handling style between Singapore's word-by-word presentation of official print and statements as compared to her larger "friendly and sensitive" neighbour method of cut-&paste editon of "I want fair-price" story. Somehow, Malaysia gov had missed the whole point of water talk, it is not about the price but the principle behind the water agreement. And KL's mockery attempt to sell 3 sens rate only expose of how "money no enuf" attitude an envious and insulate institution that the Malaysian gov has become in this affair.
A contract is a contract. Wanna break contract ? Go to court then, why make fuss placing adverts and printing 3sens pre-election party-propaganda on tax payer$'s $$$ (Do u seriously believe that 20page, softcovered booklet cost that amount ??? )
Now thanks 2 its own making, Malaysia is indeed...truely asia...
If this is the way that Malaysian gov gets its deal done thru unilaterally changes after each meeting, than I shaddered at the thought of how honest they can adhere to Singapore's independence itself in the future.
I overheard a French associate after his trip to KL last weekend as saying "while someone else is making money, Malaysia can only make noises..." -
not to mention that the NEAC, who spearheaded the campaign, is headed my Mahathir himself... why is the NEAC involved in a this diplomatic issue?Originally posted by Atobe:You must understand who owns those Malaysian Papers - another way of channeling money from the Government Treasury into a commercial unit, then zapped away into the some other account, and another slate of hand better than David Copperfield.
do they seee this as severely affecting their vital economic interests? i hardly think so...
just another incoherent m'sian effort to stir crap and make noise. i wasn't impressed with their arguments before, i am not impressed with the same nonsense put in a flasy 20 page booklet now.
damn childish of them. -
Originally posted by CX:
not to mention that the NEAC, who spearheaded the campaign, is headed my Mahathir himself... why is the NEAC involved in a this diplomatic issue?damn childish of them.
you should hv seen how their booklet online version is created..freaking inefficient and humongous man !
Why on EARTH do they wanna split it into multiple pdf files for EACH page with size of over 330kb !?
A total d/l size of mindboggling exceeding 7MB !!! just for that 20-pages of childish complains!
Just the cover.pdf itself already weights a jumbo +1Mb. Might as well settle with MS word format...not much larger but still editable for the likings for UMNO readers and cronys
Even the image and content-rich MITA version of +80-page didn't exceed that amount.
No wonder their site is now clogged with delayted hits that \even NEAC server can't handle.Check out their site @ http://www.neac.gov.my -
Gun's right.
Their server really cannot make it. This was all that I saw after trying to refresh the main page for the past 15 mins. :
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Error Diagnostic Information
Server busy or unable to fulfill request. The server is unable to fulfill your request due to extremely high traffic or an unexpected internal error. Please attempt your request again (if you are repeatedly unsuccessful you should notify the site administrator). (Location Code: 25)
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Quite disgracful.