Home > Speaker's Corner

did i misinterprete dr M?

foga
5 Jul 03, 10:37

http://app.sgmy.gov.sg/Articles/100193.Html

singaporeans, malaysians, americans, australians, chinese, malays, indians, pls share your views.
Atobe
5 Jul 03, 12:20

Singaporeans are more realistic then others care to give credit to.

Almost everyone knows that most of the properties - especially the retail shops and higher priced homes - are owned by Singaporeans; with a fair number of the retail businesses in the shopping malls operated by Singaporeans.

We will be doing ourselves a disservice by being petty with the Malaysian PM's idiosyncracies.

There are better ways to insult the Malaysian PM then to hurt the people-to-people relationship between Malaysians and Singaporeans.

We should make Mahatir cry more often, as he probably believe that our LKY's tears during the separation of 1965 seemed to have aroused public sympathy - although the tears from both leaders seemed to have been the result of broken dreams and ambitions.
kenhor
7 Jul 03, 13:49

Actually, I got that SMS much later (like middle of March, during the school holidays)

I felt it very funny and laughed at the desperation that some people will go to in order to be "patriotic"

A Singapore PR holder from Malaysia will definately ignore that message, as they are going back to visit family. So that message was aimed squarley at working class parents who want a cheap holiday during break.

So I don't know if the planned boycott was successful or not. However, let me just remind the forum-members of the dangers of boycotting shopping in Malaysia.

I recently have bought some baby wipes from Robinsons. Mega Sale on, special offer. Tollyjoy brand mega wipes. Made in Singapore (or at least, Singapore owned brand) .. so I thought .. Majulah Singapura .. lets buy it. So the SPECIAL offer was for S$9.90 for pack of 300 wipes.(usual price is like S$14.90) Great deal I thought. So being kiasu, I bought like 5 packs .. Anakku, the Malaysian brand was the same price S$9.90 for 300 wipes .. so I did the patriotic thing and supported Singapore!

I took some packs to Malaysia to give my relatives. Wanted them to use the "better" product, instead of the "rubbish" that Anakku is .. After giving them the wipes, we went to Midvalley to cool off, watch movie etc. I walked into their supermarket and just wanted to check out the wipes. To my horror, they were selling the wipes there as well. Tollyjoy. 200 wipes for RM9.90. LIST PRICE. No discount allowed. For anakku, it was RM8.90 for 200. (Singapore product "better so more expensive) .. to me wiping the kids ass is the same regardless of the brand, but what the heck, Singapore product HAS to be BETTER than Malaysia product

So, in Singapore you paid like S$0.033 per wipe (after discount). While in Malaysia, the EXACT same product is RM0.049 (that is S$0.022) .. 33% cheaper .. (list price)

And we are not comparing Malaysian stuff to Singapore stuff. .. both were Singapore made stuff. This means that

a) Singapore is dumping its products (illegal under WTO) in Malaysia
b) We are being screwed by the government.

Tollyjoy is offering its products at 33% less cost in Malaysia. However, Anakku is offering its products at 100% more cost over in Singapore .. end of the day, who is the winner? Tollyjoy, Annaku, Malaysian consumers and Singaporeans who go over to shop. Who are the losers? Singaporeans who got fooled by "patriotism" and didn't go over to shop.

This is also the main reason why birthrates in Singapore are so low amongst the citizentry. We screw the new parents with expensive luxury items. We are doomed.
nismoS132
7 Jul 03, 17:30

apparently you forgot about cheaper transport, storage and labor costs.
Atobe
7 Jul 03, 22:43

Originally posted by nismoS132:
apparently you forgot about cheaper transport, storage and labor costs.
Presumably you are referring to the Malaysians having "cheaper transport, storage and labor costs".

Who do you think insisted on Singapore wages to be so high that we can have the same Standard of Living as the Swiss ?

Who do you think insisted that Singapore transport costs must be punishingly high, so as to discourage the use of private vehicles ?

In so doing, why do you think that the Singapore "Authorities" (i.e. the Government) also linked the fact that a Commercial Vehicle will also occupy the same space as a Private Vehicle, and therefore the Commercial Vehicle should also be subject to the same punishing regime of regulating vehicle growth on Singapore roads ?

With no distinction between Private and Commercial Vehicles, the businesses are forced to pay for a ridiculously high C.O.E just so to be able to own a Goods Vehicle; and adding to the cost of buiseness or capital outlay.

Who do you think "manipulate" the costs of land sold to developers in Singapore, and for charging exorbitant fees that range from Development Charges, Stamp Duties, Legal Fees ?

At the end of the day, the Singapore Reserve is filled with cash from the Closed Consumption of the Population, and not from any Real Wealth from Real Output that earn Foreign Exchange - as in other Developed Economies of the First World.

Yet our claim to being in the league of the First World seems to be built on a flimsy boast, resting on a pack of cards that shakes precariously when some elephantine event roll by.
kenhor
8 Jul 03, 10:39

Dear Nismo,

The list price of the product is S$14.90 per 300 wipes. This is S$0.05 per wipe. In Malaysia, the same product is being sold at RM9.90 per 200 wipe. That is RM0.05 .. so at the current exchange rate of RM2.2 to S$1.0, that is like S$0.023 per wipe. That means that it is 54% cheaper in Malaysia. After discount, it becomes 33%.

If storage, labour and transport costs can cause a 33%-54% higher cost in Singapore, for the SAME PRODUCT, which is MADE in SINGAPORE or even OVERSEAS, we are totally not competitve. Hence we are doomed.

We now must investigate how come storage, labour and transport costs are so prohibititve?

Who is the fault? Why is it so high? Can we survive in the future if our costs are so high? What are we doing to reduce the costs?

All so many unanswered questions. But its an underlying factor to the decline of birth rates in Singapore. That basic living costs is so prohibitive that we can not afford many kids.

Solve the cost of living in Singapore, we solve the declining birth rates, and will solve our lack of talent and will solve our foreign talent issue. Its that simple.
nismoS132
8 Jul 03, 18:00

such is the value of our lives here.
could we even have the kind of living standard we have now if our currency were to be on par with those of our regional partners?

our money is worth double that of the malaysians, with half the cost for transportation, labor and storage in malaysia, why is it surprising to find that goods selling for a cheaper price there even if it were the same product?
Atobe
9 Jul 03, 07:18

Originally posted by nismoS132:
such is the value of our lives here.
could we even have the kind of living standard we have now if our currency were to be on par with those of our regional partners?

our money is worth double that of the malaysians, with half the cost for transportation, labor and storage in malaysia, why is it surprising to find that goods selling for a cheaper price there even if it were the same product?
If we measure "Quality of Life" by considering the "Standard of Living" and "Cost of Living", perhaps the purchasing power of a country's currency will not come to very much.

Are the Malaysians or Thais worst off than Singaporeans - in their "Quality of Life", "Standard of Living" and "Cost of Living" given their weak currency when compared to the Singapore Dollar ?

The Malaysians and Thais have access to high quality homes, four wheels, salary, jobs, full meals every day, and although their salary is lower, their Cost of Living is correspondingly lower for the same quality of household essentials and non-essentials.

Even with their low currency value (against the US Dollar as a measure), the nationals from these two neighboring countries are also able to send their children to overseas tertiary institutions with private funds, and still have some monies left for private holidays or savings.

What do we have in Singapore ?

From the moment when one graduate, we have to repay into the CPF accounts of our Parents that were used to pay for our tertiary education. We will be indebted to the financial institutions for at least the next twenty years, if we commit ourselves to a house, a car, and to any other 'capital' expenses.

Other then a "high flyer" with a five figure salary on the upper end, do we have any monies left for private savings or investments, besides what we have in our CPF savings ?

Holidays abroad ?
kenhor
9 Jul 03, 09:54

We are facing threats from Malaysia on all fronts. Economically, they are improving. Diplomatically, they have new friends in the third world and also old Europe. Militarily, we have discussed it to the death in the MILITARY NUTS forum.

This latest one is Social competition. Its most likely the straw that will break the camel's back. As our society progresses from lower income to middle income, the majority of the population will demand the rights and priveledges that other middle income earners have in other countries. Especially with increased globalization, we long for what "they" have. Middle class in developed countries have

a) Votes
b) Cars
c) Houses
d) Stability in Jobs
e) Social activism
f) Increase in recreational activities

While we are not yet a first world country, we have huge portions of our population who do long for the trappings of middle class. Sadly, do to land contraint and a dictatorian government, we are unable to achieve their wants ever. The urge to migrate to first world countries who do offer middle class "utopia" is present in most of the population. Those are considered lucky.

However, the social problem that will happen soon is that developing third world countries such as Malaysia will be able to offer that kind of middle class living that will forever be denied to relatively richer Singaporeans. Hence the danger. There is so much "kiasu" in our attitudes that we compare our lifestyle against the HKies, our military against the whole region. That at one point, we will lose out in our social comparisons. And things wont get better.

At that stage, will the government face the greatest threat to the stability of Singapore, when a developing country NEXT DOOR will offer better quality of overall living that what we can EVER offer. Thats when things will unravel. The rich are fine. But the new poor will revolt (either vocally or quietly) at conditions.

Thats the danger we face. Not economic, military or diplomatically. Its when our people just want a middle class lifestyle and the government can't deliver.

A possible solution exists .. but we aren't ready to embrace that.
kenhor
16 Jul 03, 11:24

In yesterday's ST, it seems that quality of life in singapore is rated 17th best in the world. While Malaysia is at 40 (out of 50 ranked countries) China is 39.

My answer is that if you are earning S$8,400 per month you will definately have a very good life. Just one question is how many actually do?

Mercer is a high level head hunter... if they did their study on salaries of S$4k per month, they will have a widely different story.
Atobe
16 Jul 03, 22:12

Originally posted by kenhor:
In yesterday's ST, it seems that quality of life in singapore is rated 17th best in the world. While Malaysia is at 40 (out of 50 ranked countries) China is 39.

My answer is that if you are earning S$8,400 per month you will definately have a very good life. Just one question is how many actually do?

Mercer is a high level head hunter... if they did their study on salaries of S$4k per month, they will have a widely different story.
In times like these, it will not be surprising for our Singapore Straits Times to put up more such self-glorifying articles in comparison with Malaysia.

In running down Malaysia, with such subjective kind of comparisons, that do not show the criteria or method of studies, it will not lessen the bitterness of the fact that Singapore's jobless population is increasing.

The Quality of Life - using the Swiss Standard as our objective as declared by our PM - will be a further distant dream.

However, you look at the Malaysian situation, their "meagre" income can get them a glorious landed property that is 3 times the size of our HDB 4-Room Flat, for half the price of the same HDB flat.

Even with high import duties for imported cars, the "meagre" salary still allow the Malaysian worker to purchase the same Japanese car, that will cost half of the price sold in Singapore, and yet with a bigger engine capacity.

With their "meagre" salary, at Ringgit 100, it will buy more then two supermarket trolley load of household necessities, compared with half a trolley from a Supermarket in Singapore.

Quality of Life - start from the Middle Income Group, and measure it on the same basis of comparative study.
nismoS132
16 Jul 03, 22:35

you know, i just spent the entire day in malaysia today, and i still don't see how their way of life can compare to us.

yes, things are cheaper over there. cars are cheap. houses are cheap. land is cheap. but to have to spend an hour just to travel 30km on a badly worned 2 lane road (IMO, slabs of tar and stones is a more appropriate term), and having heavy vehicles spew pure poison in your face isn't exactly a kind of life i would enjoy.

traffic laws are openly broken, with vehicles often running through a junction as long as the roads are clear. buildings are run-down and dirty, in fact, everything is run down and dirty. even the most dilapitated of flats here are in a better condition than theirs. their buses are so coated with dust, you can barely see the ads on them, or even see the people through the windows. even personal cars are trashed, the amount of clean cars as compared to cars covered with dust, soot and mud are simply miracles.

law enforcement officers are so corrupt, you even have to pay just to lodge a police report. traffic officers stop you at their whim and will accuse you of breaking all sorts of laws, just to get meagre bribes.

their living costs may be cheap, but so are their lives.
Atobe
17 Jul 03, 04:09

Originally posted by nismoS132:
you know, i just spent the entire day in malaysia today, and i still don't see how their way of life can compare to us.

yes, things are cheaper over there. cars are cheap. houses are cheap. land is cheap. but to have to spend an hour just to travel 30km on a badly worned 2 lane road (IMO, slabs of tar and stones is a more appropriate term), and having heavy vehicles spew pure poison in your face isn't exactly a kind of life i would enjoy.

traffic laws are openly broken, with vehicles often running through a junction as long as the roads are clear. buildings are run-down and dirty, in fact, everything is run down and dirty. even the most dilapitated of flats here are in a better condition than theirs. their buses are so coated with dust, you can barely see the ads on them, or even see the people through the windows. even personal cars are trashed, the amount of clean cars as compared to cars covered with dust, soot and mud are simply miracles.

law enforcement officers are so corrupt, you even have to pay just to lodge a police report. traffic officers stop you at their whim and will accuse you of breaking all sorts of laws, just to get meagre bribes.

their living costs may be cheap, but so are their lives.
It is sad if you formed your opinion by being in Malaysia and have encountered all that you have written on this single day on the road.

It will be a pity, if like yourself, when some weekend foreign visitors to Singapore like those Indians that mill around the vicinity of Desker Road - and its surrounding area that form Little Inida - will then return to India to write that Singapore is one screwed up place, where the roads are packed with people, a store that "force" its workers to work 24hours even when it is quite empty during the wee hours of night, middle aged women selling themselves in back alleys to earn a living, people having to stay in cheap runned down 2 storey homes as everthing is so expensive.

Impressions formed from a single day visit can be superficial.

Try living there for a longer period, get to live the life of the locals, talk to them, understand how they make their life work, and then form your opinion.

This will be a safer option.
kenhor
17 Jul 03, 09:38

Dear Nismo

I understand your view point. In fact, I experienced some of the road conditions that you mention. Especially when in some of the kampung areas where I go and look for toddy.

And I don't want to belittle your experience, nor take away your valid points. However, you have to understand that Malaysia is 500x bigger than Singapore in terms of land area alone. How the heck can any country create an atmosphere or condition like Singapore in a country that size?

When I go to USA, we were told to avoid the Bronx and South Central LA. So even developed countries have areas that are lesser developed.

My whole point in this thread is to say how much better we Singaporeans have if we go to Malaysia. For example, if we were to stay in the island forever, our car can only go up to 90km/h legally. In Malaysia, we can very soon go up to 120. And the petrol is cheaper. So we can really enjoy more over there than we can ever over here. Ditto for food, entertainment and lifestyle.
nismoS132
17 Jul 03, 16:14

Originally posted by Atobe:
Impressions formed from a single day visit can be superficial.
that was not the first time i've been in malaysia. i was just saying that the trip yesterday reminded me how much i would rather have my life here than there.
nismoS132
17 Jul 03, 16:16

Originally posted by kenhor:
In Malaysia, we can very soon go up to 120. And the petrol is cheaper. So we can really enjoy more over there than we can ever over here. Ditto for food, entertainment and lifestyle.
actually you can go up to over 300kmh in malaysia. laws don't really make much sense there.
kenhor
17 Jul 03, 18:15

Legally, we can go up to 120km .. I am only focusing on what we can do legally there. And legally, we can have an additional 30km.

And over there, petrol is at RM1.35 per litre .. thats like half of what we pay. Same for groceries, food and other services (like haircuts, massage, golf, movie .. the legal type)

So for a person earning a meagre salary in Singapore, going over there is the only way to stretch our buck. So hence my posting to warn those who "out of patriotism" wish to avoid Malaysia. It may be ok for patroitism, but will ultimately hurt your own buck.
nismoS132
17 Jul 03, 18:31

the difference would then be about quality and security.

i'd much rather watch a movie, service my vehicle and do my shopping back here than over there. for 1, who knows which spark is gonna run off with wheels, replacing them with bricks?

this things happen in broad daylight in shopping centre carparks.

looking at things you can do legally is not looking at the full picture. you have to understand that there are all kinds of risks there, more so if your license plate happens to be singaporean.
Atobe
17 Jul 03, 19:57

I sincerely hope you are not displaying the typical attitude of a "kiasi" Singaporean, who prefer the safe comfort of Singapore, then to venture out into the high risk world beyond Singapore shores.

The higher the risks, the higher the returns - if you make it.

How one makes it, will depend on many other factors, but it will certainly not happen by staying within the comfort zone of familiar ground that we know is slowly deteriorating.

Even our Singapore Government is asking us to spread our wings and fly, but at the same time they talk about the wonderful life of Singapore and running down our neighbors with its high profile crimes.

Yet our Government forget that for a smaller size population in tightly packed Singapore, the rate of murder occurring in Singapore is higher in Singapore then in Malaysia.

With "corruption" in Malaysia or other neighboring countries, at least you know you are getting something going somewhere.

While in Singapore, even after paying all the hefty fees OFFICIALLY, you are still back to where you have started, without any advantage or headstart.

Corruption can be seen kindly or unkindly in the light of existing circumstances. One is to help spread the wealth and level out the playing field; the second view can be that of an added burden to an economic activity.

Whichever way the money goes -whether into the Treasury or someone's personal account - the money has to be disbursed.

If one is streetsmart and intend to achieve one's objective, it is important to wise up to the situation and make hay while the sun shine.
nismoS132
17 Jul 03, 22:07

it's not about being kiasi, but about the comparison of the costs of living vs the standard of living of 2 very different countries. i am saying that we cannot compare ourselves with malaysia, there is as much bad as there is good about living there, and it is the same here.

speaking of venturing abroad, upon my graduation, i am leaving for japan. partly by choice and partly by circumstances. choice because i love animation, and circumstances because the market here is too immature for it. people are still subscribed to the mindset that cartoons are for kids.

but unlike many others, i have intentions to return. bringing with me my experience to help develope the industry here, to nurture the talent and to set up a family here.

i guess, until the pap or whoever succeeds the country in the next decade allows dual citizenship, i'll remain a singaporean. by choice.
Atobe
18 Jul 03, 04:32

The Cost of Living can affect the Standard of Living that will end up also affecting the Quality of Living.

Lower Cost of Living does not necessarily result in a Lower Standard of Living, and can have positive effect to the Quality of Life - if you follow the points that have been raised.

Great to see that you are amongst the adventurous few who dare to venture abroad for the advancement of your career.

Japan will slowly reveal to you that its High Cost of Living do not necessarily provide them any higher Standard of Living - (despite all the modern amenities and services) - and may in fact have negatively affected the Quality of Life.

It will be a happy experience for you to break out of one box and experience Life in another - but try to live in a few more open boxes and you will have Life riches experiences.
kenhor
18 Jul 03, 12:10

Dear Nismo,

If its about a matter of security, then it will also turn into a matter of freedom vs oppression. We live in utopia if you think that small matters such as freedom of speech, freedom to vote, freedom to question government, taxation with representation is not important.

Why can't we have freedom and security? Why can't we get job security, good pay, low taxes, low costs, good government, free speech, total government transparency and no FTs?

Its because its impossible. We need to have a balance. We can't get the best of everything all the time. So there is a give and take. Hence that is why Malaysia is like that. There is great compromise that have to take place to satisfy the majority.
Forever84
19 Jul 03, 23:02

Land value push prices up. Goods takes up shop space and shop space is expensive, since its more costly to store then of course ur toilet paper will cost more.
Anyway abt income, reason singaporeans 'seem' to earn so much is because of the many 'few' very rich people.
nismoS132
20 Jul 03, 04:05

Originally posted by Atobe:
Japan will slowly reveal to you that its High Cost of Living do not necessarily provide them any higher Standard of Living - (despite all the modern amenities and services) - and may in fact have negatively affected the Quality of Life.

It will be a happy experience for you to break out of one box and experience Life in another - but try to live in a few more open boxes and you will have Life riches experiences.

japan's cost has gone too high actually. but at least it's a place where lotsa new and fun stuffs keep appearing, probably due to their stressful lives, the urge to have new stuffs to entertain them is crucial to their sanity.

there aren't really that many other places in the world i'd like to visit much, there just doesn't seem to be anything interesting. maybe the north or south pole, or some forsaken island in the pacific.
nismoS132
20 Jul 03, 04:06

Originally posted by kenhor:
Dear Nismo,

If its about a matter of security, then it will also turn into a matter of freedom vs oppression. We live in utopia if you think that small matters such as freedom of speech, freedom to vote, freedom to question government, taxation with representation is not important.

Why can't we have freedom and security? Why can't we get job security, good pay, low taxes, low costs, good government, free speech, total government transparency and no FTs?

Its because its impossible. We need to have a balance. We can't get the best of everything all the time. So there is a give and take. Hence that is why Malaysia is like that. There is great compromise that have to take place to satisfy the majority.
wasn't that my point?