Training has slacked???
-
One of my friend, whose recon trained, just went back for reservist and acted as and auxilary instructor for a recon trooper course conducted in the unit's camp.
It natural for you to compare the trainee platoon with your NS platoon so that's what he did. My friend was impressed by the fittness of the platoon as they were much fitter than his/our batch. Those troops were handpicked for the job. But the impression stops there.
My friend is shocked to find the operational readiness of the troop slacking so much in terms of preparation, personel equipment conditions and operations security contingents. All these were poorly done! All the Standard Operations Procedures were totally fucked and compromised.
My friend was so pissed off by the attitude of the troops "bochup" that he almost wanted to punish them....but he didn't....for he's only an auxilary instructor and a reservist.
The sense of urgency and the basic self-dicipline of the troops were not there....it's like they were not cultivated to those dicipline at all. Signs of slacken training since BMT.
During Ops training, the platoon's total fucked up in navigation. Just going to a knoll only 1.5 klicks for the starting point, they can get lost.....somemore they are navigating by roads which are already good features of the ground to navigate with!
My fren brought up the matter to course warrant and the course commander, whose only a 2SG and a 2LT(most of the full-time instructors were in overseas training). But there not much these instructors can do cos the whole chain of command is already fucked!!
The trainee platoon's PC is in ORD mood and the PS bochup, so natural that the section commanders and guys were in ever low-morale and bochup attitude. Even the Senior officer in charge of intelligence (whom the Recon platoon is under) is doing a bad job.
Has our training slacken so much? Is the NSF recon platoon now even worst than a normal Reservist recon platoon?
It's not like my ex-platoon are commando-trained or some "cream of the crop" platoon or pioneer batches trained by israeli soldiers, but it's just a normal recon platoon that's the predecessor of current batch. Has the training slacken so much in one year??
At these troubled time like this, I still don't understand why people not taking our defence seriously??
In ten years- SAF troop might be even worst than NCC cadets. -
Aiya, thanks our sweet moms and dads who help us complain whenever we get a bruise doing obstacle course. And them threatening to sue mindef for not taking care of us. Also have to thank them for making a mountain out of a molehill whenever one of us bangs our balls into a tree cos we weren't watching where we are going.
Seriously, parents nowadays are really getting a bit too protective over their kids. Some no longer expects their children to be independent and tough. Some may just call for their kids to be independent on the surface, but never really lifting their protective wing off them. No one can blame them for their concerns, but its will definitely not go well for the future of armed service in this country. -
haha....relax man, i doubt it is as bad as that.you know, i always thought thought that my reservist would be a yearly 2 week holiday , paid for by the govt..boy was i wrong!maybe wat your friend saw was slacken training, attitude, but lets admit when we were in the army, sometimes we just fell"low key"...like u said, maybe the PC ord mood, etc...but then, there is always the super on PC who wanted u to redo everything again...
u said that they were still in training?maybe after the training cycle,they will be trained solders who will at least shoot straight and avoid being shot at
and not get lost after 1.5 km..... -
Intuit Direction is an intel. skill. Low intel usually results in negative modifiers.
-
Well, i would like to comment and pour out my personal feelings on this. Since when reservists are affected by their parent's complain when they themselve are already adults? Yes for NSF nowsday maybe, why?? Cos the parents themselve are also treating SAF as a waste of time. Just like m1113apc himself had mentioned. He started out thinking that his reservist would be a yearly 2 week holiday, paid by the govt.
In whatever jobs, would a poorly paid temp staff do any better than a permanent and trained staff? These temp staffs are just out to pass their time and hence of course who bother to put on their best when they have a real life outside to deal with. What is independent and tough to them in those jobs when it's not their main real job at all?
Don't blame the attitude of the temp staffs when the boss never bother or too stingy to employ more permanent staffs. Of course no one can blame them for their concerns. Whether it will definitely go well or not for the future of armed service in this country is not their concern too when politically they are not even a part to decide. Apathetic is a culture forced onto us the common people when our rights are limited. We are just tiny little nobodies and the government is the one making the decision. Everything is controlled and decided by them and not by you. Do you have a say politically? can you decide whether to accept the water treaty set between the government and malaysia? Can you decide their pay?? Can you make them give up parts of their extremely high pay to finance our defence giving more incentive to attract more pple to join SAF from commercial sector, giving better training, improving SAF image, boosting the morale, buying in more advance technology etc? Can we ask them not to waste too much money building SAF Officer club house, golf club etc etc? Can we negiotiate for more rights and privileges compared to those PR or foreigner? Sorry, none of this you can do but to complain on our fellow men who are treated like nobodies by the government. But are we going to be treated like slave then when the morales are not in the right direction? I guess so cos legal action will be forced upon you. We are constricted and forced to. It's a fact shared by most. Some points from a 2nd class citizen to note.
[This message has been edited by Kyo23 (edited 03 March 2002).] -
Another point to note, when our MP can be paid a damn high salary so that they will keep to their job instead of being corrupted i.e. bribing them so as to gain their loyalty to the country. wouldn't such principle be applied likewise to common folk? Cheap labour mean slack, right? It's a national education set as an example by our leader. Who should you blame then?
-
of course , what kind of performance u expect from troops who are paid only few hundred dollars a month
-
As usual, if u want to say people are being paid very high or very low, u gotta give them numbers, facts or figures. So far, u're only yakking away giving no concrete proof of your criticism.
-
As for what MAMA has said, how much are you expecting from SAF for your service?
Everything is provided by them except undies, and how much would you need for that?
Its just simply irresponsible to blame SAF for the money and in turn work less and so on. -
facts : PTE - CPL $300-$400
3SG - 2SG $400-$500
2LT - LTA $600-$700
Are u living in thailand or cambodia ? -
if u don't agree with me , then why almost every NSF want to ORD as fast as possible , is there something wrong with this regime or something wrong with the NSFs. Why most of our guys don't look forward for NS .
motivation and
job satisfaction = interest X benefits
motivation in NS = 100% X 0 = 0
or 0 X 100% = 0
and in most cases 0 x 0 = 0
it takes 2 hands to clap , so what if u are really siao-on , do u think u can last for 30 months ? -
Yup, it's simply irresponsible to blame SAF for the money. Everything we provide for you, what more you want??Originally posted by Eyezer:As for what MAMA has said, how much are you expecting from SAF for your service?
Everything is provided by them except undies, and how much would you need for that?
Its just simply irresponsible to blame SAF for the money and in turn work less and so on.
We of course different, the more money we have in our pocket mean the more work we do. How can you pple compare with us? -
There are a few reasons why a lot of guys hate NS, or want to ORD as fast as possible. The truth is, most guys are really not the army type, and they have personal dreams and aspirations. So its perfectly normal for them to want to get NS over as quickly as possible.
Can someone get an accurate pay scale for a REGULAR, for an average enlisted, or Officer in Mindef? Lets use Army as example. I don't have these numbers personally.
There are a few reasons why Singapore's career soldiers aren't as well paid as other proffessional soldiers. 1. We are not responding to various crisis around the world like the US military. 2. Our armed forces is only used as a last resort. 3. Peace keeping missions usually consist of medical teams and not combat soldiers. Singapore definitely will not have the capability to hire a mercenary armed force like the USA. -
I agree with SHOTGUN on that. Singapore is not committed to a fighting force, but rather a deterrant force. If they start paying everyone by the thousands, i assume our parents and kins would be paying maybe 40% taxes!! makes sense??
People have aspiration, my friend. Some would prefer to work, some to study, all have differnet agendas on their life. I'm sure when you are in NS, you would think of something else that would benefit more personally than on the National security. Not blaming on your selfishness cos it happens to like 80% of the people.
Don't always think that you are the only one 'suffering', can turn your head and look, who didn't go thru' what you went thru'? -
If SAF were to engage in armed conflicts, eg. peacekeeping force turned nasty, or armed incursion into Singapore, would Singapore boys be able to keep cool and fight their way through?Originally posted by Eyezer:I agree with SHOTGUN on that. Singapore is not committed to a fighting force, but rather a deterrant force. If they start paying everyone by the thousands, i assume our parents and kins would be paying maybe 40% taxes!! makes sense??
I wonder how many good LT/2LT has SAF produced who can actually lead and not piss their pants off in real conflict. When things get hot, people die, how many platoon commanders, section leaders, etc can stand up and still command their troops?
Even the US Marines are facing a difficult tasks to maintain fighting edge for future conflicts. -
haha eyezer....the thousands have been used already...to pay for the ministers 5 digit pay....
look,we are not a political site, so i do not want to go into dicussion into that.
but the plain fact that someone made is very clear...you pay peanuts, you get monkeys,
you pay big bucks, you get what you want(though it does not always go according to plan)
so to a nsf soldier slogging it out, getting 400 bucks a month digging trenches in the field, his main aim and dream is to get the held out!ASAP!
we can talk abt defending spore, the threats we face,the defense of the nation....but as long as the pay is so little, the atttute is gonna remain the same(especially sporeans) .....S A F
pay the nsfs more.make them feel valued. -
Well, as far as NSFs are concerned, it will be VERY difficult offering them higher pay. Every year, our defense budget will increase, despite economic downturns. If the government was to pay NSFs more, the budget will also increase proportionally. Now imagine that proportional increment in ur taxes.
In fact, even the US chooses not to commit its military to peacekeeping duties. They found that their troops were not able to carry out duties that limit their full combat capabilities. Somalia was an excellent example of duties that limited their capabilities. They could not fire unless fired upon, and had to observe a dozen other rules in their ROE. They perform better knowing that the enemy IS shooting at them, and that they had the freedom to retaliate.
Whether our Officers can lead in combat remains to be seen. When we form our proffessional active deployment force, then we will have our examples to testify for or against our boys. Come to think of it, I can almost understand why OCS prefers Poly or A' Grads. They are probably hoping these people will regurgitate out all they have learnt in OCS when the "examinations" come. Pray that they don't regurgitate the wrong stuff.
Seriously, I do not understand why Singaporeans cannot find the duty and honor in ourselves to serve NS with pride. Israeli soldiers serve with pride and dedication throughout their term, and Taiwanese conscripts are considered heros. Why are Singaporean NSFs considered as National Slaves when our training is relatively mild compared to countries like Israel?
Russian conscripts have like half our field time, and 1/4 our resources. Lousy training camps, and yet Russian 90% of most Russian youths accept their conscription without complaints.
Is it because we are a well educated society that finds National Service a waste of time when compared to one's education? If that is the case, then IMHO, until this mindset changes, we will be getting too educated for our own good. -
More likely is that the more people gets higher education, the more arrogant they become. Thinking they are worth more than just digging trenches out in the dark, sweating like a dog...
It's just plain ignorance..and i am so sad the admit that Singaporeans are living a life of luxury and that they always thought high pays and $$ are everything to their life. Even serving the nation needs a SALARY.. how pathetic can that be? Are we saying that a well paid army is a BETTER army? Anyone?
Shall we blame the society for this common philosophy? $$ dictates everything hence are a benchmark to how much we contribute? -
i am talking abt how i feel.dogs???Originally posted by Eyezer:More likely is that the more people gets higher education, the more arrogant they become. Thinking they are worth more than just digging trenches out in the dark, sweating like a dog...
It's just plain ignorance..and i am so sad the admit that Singaporeans are living a life of luxury and that they always thought high pays and $$ are everything to their life. Even serving the nation needs a SALARY.. how pathetic can that be? Are we saying that a well paid army is a BETTER army? Anyone?
Shall we blame the society for this common philosophy? $$ dictates everything hence are a benchmark to how much we contribute?
your post is is really negative and personal. -
Sorry abt that then, it was nothing personal. It's just that the common sentiments among most of the NSFs are like what you think, that to be paid more is to be valued more.
Let's put it in another way...would you stay longer, say another 6 months if they were to offer more? I doubt so, right? Wonder where all the national education has gotten to, the effort by the govt must have gone down the drain. -
Din i mentioned b4, the national education is effectively teaching us the current way. The leader lead by example themselves. The higher the salary the more job and responsibility. The high salary is there to secure their heart and loyalty i.e bribed them so that they will not be bribed. You might had being a dog for 2 long to be blinded to have brain. The more pay you got, the more your loyalty. That's what the government themselves are teaching. And glad to know that you are not blind enuff to see that 80% of the people had being cultivated by our system to have aspiration, selfishness, materialism instead to be like you. You must be going the wrong direction not following the government example. Shouldn't you follow?
And regarding the salary starting paying everyone by the thousands, when singapore can afford to pay our ministers a extra salary (for their service beside their own career) that's almost 4 or 5 times that of US's, they have no money to pay our own tax $$$ back to us, the common people to secure our loyalties but to force and conscript us to perform cheap labour in return in national service. Take note only common pple are forced, those rich with $$$$ and high status pples are exempted to some extent. When job opportunity go to foreigners while our fresh grad are eating grass, they do nothing much but stress further for them to perform diligently when serving their cheap labour terms. I'm speaking out for our younger generation. Can we ask those ministers to take in just a few thousands dollars a month instead of having 5 digits salary for their national service and fork out the rest to our poor soldiers instead? No i guess so. Cos maybe to them we all are just dogs. Dogs need so much money?
So should we blame the society for this common philosophy whereby $$ dictates how much we should contribute like you had said?? Answer me then instead of complaining on your poor fellowmen. And stop comparing singapore with other countries like taiwan etc. Are we similar to them in any way in term of politic, social background and various other conditions?
[This message has been edited by Kyo23 (edited 07 March 2002).] -
So would you/shotgun or like stay another 6 months? or better go thru another 2.5 years of NS since you seem to support NS so much? Just curious to know.Originally posted by Eyezer:Let's put it in another way...would you stay longer, say another 6 months if they were to offer more? I doubt so, right? Wonder where all the national education has gotten to, the effort by the govt must have gone down the drain. -
Yup, true. Every year, our defense budget will increase, desipte economic downturns, you will still see more and more officer club house, golf club building up. Build for what? for some sort of serious training i guess in the hope to defence singapore better. Pay of officers who zho bo increasing with lots of pension. Pay of MP increased until cannot increase anymore so that they will not be bribed or betray singapore.Originally posted by Shotgun:Well, as far as NSFs are concerned, it will be VERY difficult offering them higher pay. Every year, our defense budget will increase, despite economic downturns. If the government was to pay NSFs more, the budget will also increase proportionally. Now imagine that proportional increment in ur taxes.
[This message has been edited by Kyo23 (edited 07 March 2002).] -
Ya, and if they don't build, People like you will be complaining Mindef don't treat its soldiers well. Never give them recreational facilities, never give them benefits. Kyo23, the point of arguement here is not whether who is earning more and if they have the right to earn more.
The point is, you complain about it in the forums is USELESS and irritates the hell out of people who going to go into NS. The more you bitch about it, the more youngsters grow weary and depressed about the entire NS thing. Training to defend Singapore is about one of the most important thing a male youth does. 2.5 years is a long time, but any shorter will leave mindef even more short handed.
Kyo, I wouldn't want to extend another 2.5 years of NS, cos I have my own plans. Unless I become a regular then different story. Whether extending 2.5 years or not is not the issue. The issue is learning the skills, needed in a combat enviroment within 2.5 years. Think of it as school, and war as the examination. If I completed my education in my designated field of warfare, why should I bother extending? Do you think you need to go through secondary school again? Lets not forget that reservists will still get recalled for exercises, additiona trainings to keep them updated.
Kyo23, if you are so unhappy about servicemen's pay, then you should bring this up to your MPs or grassroot leaders. Or if you're lucky enough to meet them, ask them personally, WHY are MPs earning so much (how much exactly, you never told us.) and servicemen paid so little? -
It's interesting enuff to know that such a recreational facilities is only open to certain rank and not all soldiers. And you mean there is a lack of recreational facilities in singapore?? Need to build more golf field to fill up all the empty spaces of singapore?Originally posted by Shotgun:Ya, and if they don't build, People like you will be complaining Mindef don't treat its soldiers well. Never give them recreational facilities, never give them benefits.
The point which you failed to recognise in this thread is that i did not start it. Someone is complaining on us the fellowmen for slacking in training when he failed to understand why. We are being condemned when all the while we, the 2nd class citizen are suffering all the unfairness and injustice. Should i point it out then?
The point is, you complain about it in the forums is USELESS and irritates the hell out of people who going to go into NS. The more you bitch about it, the more youngsters grow weary and depressed about the entire NS thing.
Since you know they are short handed, maybe you can volunteer for another round to help out since you are so garang? The gov, SAF, the PRs and the foreigners will be glad to have you around. Just a suggestion.
Training to defend Singapore is about one of the most important thing a male youth does. 2.5 years is a long time, but any shorter will leave mindef even more short handed.
Yes, i will do that if my suggestion will be taken or if i do get an answer. But do you think that will happen when we are just tiny little nobodies? And will you tell anybody exactly the amount if you are earning big buck from NS? Isn't it enuff to know that they are earning an extra 5 digits salary to make you wonder why?
Kyo23, if you are so unhappy about servicemen's pay, then you should bring this up to your MPs or grassroot leaders. Or if you're lucky enough to meet them, ask them personally, WHY are MPs earning so much (how much exactly, you never told us.) and servicemen paid so little?