Training has slacked???
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So what are u suggesting? More arcade centres?Put yourself in the shoes of an employer, if you are working, you want something that could benefit not just you but also your family and friends. Isn't building all these facilities a plus for all? And MINDEF doesn't stop public access to these places, do they? Unless you don't wanna go patronise this places, who are you to blame that they are just wasting the places? Think on a more general scale, you don't get what you want doesn't mean it's a waste.
Who's complaining of being a 2nd class citizen, i didn't know anyone feels that way in the country. Must be the self-esteem problem, so is that generated from the policy of the present govt? I bet so.. from the way you critised them. Must be so sad, i figure.
I think that's being ridiculously sarcastic, should you blame your parents to have just you then? And of course, since you hate the whole setup, then you could choose to either get out of it, or change yourself....to the other side, of course! That's also just a suggestion.
What makes u think that your 'complain' are not taken. go ask your boss in SAF how many complains they get? It's probably so much that you could sniff it out from the office. Could we consider complaining as a 'virtue'? By singapore standards? We hear people talk abt the systems, the country, and everything, but y aren't anyone doing anything abt it? Or all of us are just a follower of the system, so what's the point of grumbling then? If you are brave enough to change, then change the system, just putting on your complains abt the whole thing is not gonna change your life at all. Life goes on. -
Do you know why they are earning much more $$? Because most of them have degrees, honors or masters. Singapore's system has been like this for many years. If you're just another corporal or sargeant with an O'levels or diploma, do u really expect 5 digit pay? WHY? The answer is in your face, THEY HAVE QUALIFICATIONs. In black and white, on a piece of paper called certificate. Theirs is something called Masters, Honors, while most of us have only Diplomas and Degrees. These people are paid well not only for their qualifications, but also for the posts they are holding as the various "Managers" of a Corporation called "Singapore."Originally posted by Kyo23:Yes, i will do that if my suggestion will be taken or if i do get an answer. But do you think that will happen when we are just tiny little nobodies? And will you tell anybody exactly the amount if you are earning big buck from NS? Isn't it enuff to know that they are earning an extra 5 digits salary to make you wonder why?
The only reason we are so called deemed "2nd class" citizens, in your terminology, would be the lack of education and paper qualification. If everyone works hard for their educations and qualifications, they too are so called "first class" citizens. In case you didnt realise, it generates MERITOCRACY. Yes, the hard fact is that there is a class division in Singapore. That division is determined by education, and qualifications. Therefore no one is really stuck in your so called "2nd class" if he or she is willing to work for their "1st class" citizenship. The only unfairness or injust is brought upon ourselves for not striving hard enough for qualifications. Condemned? I hardly think so, considering the government is starting an open university where anyone can work and get their qualifications? Anyone who wants to, can work their way out of "condemnation."
If facilities are only available to those of a certain rank, then GET to that rank. If your not interested to get to that rank, then WHY would you want to enter those facilities?
[This message has been edited by Shotgun (edited 08 March 2002).] -
I would like to question this shallow mind of eyezer. Is building of officer club house, golf club a plus to all?? Is the money spent contributing to the defence of singapore or just to the leisure of some officer pig out there? Mindef don't stop public to access such place?? Hey kids, you better grow up and try going in and see ifOriginally posted by Eyezer:So what are u suggesting? More arcade centres?Put yourself in the shoes of an employer, if you are working, you want something that could benefit not just you but also your family and friends. Isn't building all these facilities a plus for all? And MINDEF doesn't stop public access to these places, do they? Unless you don't wanna go patronise this places, who are you to blame that they are just wasting the places? Think on a more general scale, you don't get what you want doesn't mean it's a waste.
you can get in and enjoy all the facilities without any pass or Id.
So y aren't anyone doing anything i like to ask since your SAF office is full of complaint? If you are stupid enough, maybe you can go on a strike and see what happen to you. As mentioned, singapore is controlled. Who are you to change this system? It's the government who decide and not you or me who are little tiny nobodies. Go check out your own status b4 toking big here and complaining on your poor fellowmen for being apathetic and slacking in training. It's a culture forced on us by the system, who should you blame? blame on your parent like what you had mentioned? It's so obvious. It's the maker of such a system who is at fault and hence don't come back and blame the pple or the poor parents.
What makes u think that your 'complain' are not taken. go ask your boss in SAF how many complains they get? It's probably so much that you could sniff it out from the office. Could we consider complaining as a 'virtue'? By singapore standards? We hear people talk abt the systems, the country, and everything, but y aren't anyone doing anything abt it? Or all of us are just a follower of the system, so what's the point of grumbling then? If you are brave enough to change, then change the system, just putting on your complains abt the whole thing is not gonna change your life at all. Life goes on.
[This message has been edited by Kyo23 (edited 08 March 2002).] -
With their Qualifications, so you think their pay are justifiable to be 5 digits and even 4 to 5 times that of US's minister pay?Originally posted by Shotgun:Do you know why they are earning much more $$? Because most of them have degrees, honors or masters. Singapore's system has been like this for many years. If you're just another corporal or sergeant with an O'levels or diploma, do u really expect 5 digit pay? WHY? The answer is in your face, THEY HAVE QUALIFICATIONs. In black and white, on a piece of paper called certificate. Theirs is something called Masters, Honors, while most of us have only Diplomas and Degrees. These people are paid well not only for their qualifications, but also for the posts they are holding as the various "Managers" of a Corporation called "Singapore."
You mean our mp are better off than those in other countries who managed a even bigger state? Do you know that this 5 digit salary is just their office pay for national service when at the same time they are having their own career earning big money?
The higher their pay, the more loyal they will be. So is it wrong that we follow suite and speak the same language? the $$ language?
And I think you must be some kid who haven't even serve your fucking NS if you are also saying all officers in SAF are holding degree or higher and hence their pay are justified while all non-officer NSF/NSmen are some stupid idiot who have not much education? So many of my friends are degree holders with honor, and they never have or even wanted the rank in SAF. Check out the fact and be enlightened that SAF is only a dumping ground for pple who cannot fit into other job fields.
Are you sure you are getting my meaning of my terminology correct? Did i mentioned that we are having a lower education qualification than those foreigner?? So many local fresh grad produced but are jobless on the street and yet we can see so many foreigner working in the office. So many PRs working happily without disruption to their life and still enjoy almost the same benefit as those citizens. Aren't we loser compared to them when we need to waste 2.5 years of our youth and be disrupted occasionally from serious work for ICT? Aren't we blanded the 2nd class citizen in the eye of our great government instead of by me when we complaint to them but get neglected?
The only reason we are so called deemed "2nd class" citizens, in your terminology, would be the lack of education and paper qualification. If everyone works hard for their educations and qualifications, they too are so called "first class" citizens. In case you didnt realise, it generates MERITOCRACY. Yes, the hard fact is that there is a class division in Singapore. That division is determined by education, and qualifications. Therefore no one is really stuck in your so called "2nd class" if he or she is willing to work for their "1st class" citizenship. The only unfairness or injust is brought upon ourselves for not striving hard enough for qualifications. Condemned? I hardly think so, considering the government is starting an open university where anyone can work and get their qualifications? Anyone who wants to, can work their way out of "condemnation."
Oh great, so such officer club house are only restricted to certain rank unlike what the naive, eyezer had thought to be open to the public. And you are wrong, I'm not interested to enter those facilities when there are so many private club house around with better facilities. Aren't those public money be better used on paying and improving the morale of NSF, NSmen or spent on the defence of singapore rather than appeasing some minority??
If facilities are only available to those of a certain rank, then GET to that rank. If your not interested to get to that rank, then WHY would you want to enter those facilities? -
Look bub, you're right, I haven't served my NS yet. And I seriously don't care how well officers are paid or watever. But one thing I am surprised that you have not realised. Singapore's educations system is of a high standard and the standard is constantly, and has constantly increased. Why do those people have 5 digit pay, like I said, is due to QUALIFICATIONs. Many of those MPs whom you are talking about are born between the 1940s to the 1960s.
In the 1950s, PSLE was a VERY high standard of educations, some of the current ministers have made it at least up to A'level or obtained degrees overseas. Imagine this, a degree holder in the a place where the common education level was PSLE.
1960s, the O'levels was considered THE desired standard of education. Some of the ministers or MPs have strove for more, and obtained Degrees or honors. Again, they stood out from the common education level.
1970s, A'levels and diplomas were considered the standard. Those who stood out were those who obtained Honors and Masters.
1980s, Diplomas and degrees were considered as the desired level of educations.
And from the 1990s onwards, the desired level of education to command a RESPECTABLE 4 digit pay, say around $3k, is an HONORs or Masters.
Now that I have made my point, let me ask you, what are YOUR qualifications to question why MPs are recieving 5 digit pay? Mind you, lets not create the illusion that these 5digit pay would be above $20 for non-ministerial positions. Sure, I may be a "kid" that has not completed NS yet, but at least I know what it takes to command a 5digit pay in Singapore. Very High quality paper, and as many as possible. And when one gains experience, the sky's the limit.
Personally, the Singapore government, and the way it works have done a damn good job at running the country. Considering its and island with virtually nothing, and we are still thriving. We are thriving on a knowledge based economy, and we need papers to prove our knowledge. And let me ask, WHY should we be so grudging against foreigners? Sure they don't serve NS, and NS puts us at a disadvantage, but at the end of the day, if you have the paper qualifications, you needn't fear about job opportunities. Should adopt a standard to favour the local population when looking for employees? If we should, what difference would there be seperating this policy from the Malaysian "bumiputra" policy which favors malays? Has their policy done them any good?
For Singapore to survive AS a nation in this competitive world, we need as much talents as possible. Be they foreign or local. If these foreign talents decide to settle here, all the better, their son's can serve NS alongside us. If you look on the brighter side, and think. These foreign talents can actually spur local students to work harder to get as better qualifications in order to compete with them. If our leaders now adopt a thinking like, "why should our local population have to compete with foreigners for work." then, Singapore will die off in a matter of 10 years.
[This message has been edited by Shotgun (edited 09 March 2002).] -
Oh yeah, another thing. Please address the US'"ministers" using the proper terms. Be they mayors, congressmen or senators. They each have a different pay level. Also, the US government system is also VERY different from ours. I suggest you should compare our's to a more similar system, like the British. And again, it would be helpful for you to help us understand by providing a decent salary scale rather than "5 digit" which can mean anything from $10000 to $99999.
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Yo guys cool it off.
Wow...I didn't know that such discussions can turn in flaming....come on....let's all keep cool and have an open mind.
It's actaully a comment on a simple slacking in training and became a $$/diplomacy/2CC/Political issue.
Regardless whether you agree or disagree with one and another, I would like to see an open-minded discussion around here. Don't start to "shoot off" negatively just becos you "dun like his/her's attitude" in his opinion, cos it'll only result in more rebukes. Try to refrain from personal attacks and swearing cos it'll only bring you down.
Actually wanted to comment on Kyo, Shotgun and Eyezer's reply but it's very late at my side..sleepyz... hopfully will comment later on...... :p -
Well there is an contradiction here , u said that s'pore education is high and it will go even higher , since its first class and so good then why we need foreign talent , why the goverment is so keen in giving them scholarship to foreigns to woo them over . Is our education system failed to produce talents ???
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Its only contradiction if u just consider the "education" side of it. Foreigners from certain countries bring to Singapore firms different levels of creativity, and their mindset. Some of which can change the way business is done.
To make it simple. Say you tell a Singaporean to get a certain job done. A typical Singaporean answer is "I'll try." Whereas some foreigners just do it, or offer suggestions to improve the job or to make it more efficient. Sometimes, forien talents can be more competitive than Singaporeans, for example honkies. They are considered the elite in the entertainment industry, and its no surprised that the people behind Mediacorp, and Mediaworks are honkies.
Basically, different people from different lands bring to singapore different culture. -
It has been publicly stated that the govt is pushing for people from overseas because of their creativity towards problem solving. Due to the rigid education setup from the 60s and 70s, it is not enough to deal with the demands.
Since other countries already had a headstart while we are just introducing into the curriculam, why not use them? And using $$ and social stability as incentives, everyone is willing to contribute their share of talent.
Not that Singaporeans are inferior but when it comes to something new, the govt rather uses proven talent then to start it from raw ground. It is just the way it works around, especially that there must be no lag in the economic sector cause by this 'deficiency'.
The small isle that we are living uses brains, sells ideas....nothing more. To remain competitive, we have to be generous in recognising talents, not cutting corners. -
interesting to see this thread.....din know of this discrimination....so only majors can join into the officers club?
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Great to see so many praises and good comments on the much needed oversea talents
. Personally, i find that the local pple really lack of creativity maybe due to the rigid educational system in singapore.
Well as for the NS matters, with the arising political problems between singapore and other neighbouring countries, i see the need for a stronger military defence of singapore. With so many positive youth around who support NS, an increase of the NS period from 2.5 years to maybe 4-5 years should be greatly supported to contribute further for a stronger defence. This will ensure the singapore will be stable and safe for foreigner to come over to stay, work or invest. So guess you local better don't complain too much when you are not up to that qualification and standard to help out in the singapore's economic. Serve your NS for the government diligently and more foreigner will come over to singapore to work and help make it prosperous.
[This message has been edited by MP (edited 15 March 2002).] -
Well, i guess there isn't alot of folks like myself to speak up on this issue and i will do the honours
I've completed my NS, presently undergoing Reservist, not an officer, not a spec, just a LCP and even then, not a combat personnel, just some small "fly".
And well, i don't have the luxury of money since very young, parents could only make ends meet, couldn't get to a U. Results not overtly fantastic. Anyway, now and then, i may have some complaints, but never was there an inclination to think of myself as a "second class" citizen.
True, this is a land that is based on paper, but it doesn't necessarily mean you will be stamped with a life sentence if you don't have it.
I don't earn a 5 figure pay, but the pay is comfortable and you know what? My last job was a Systems Engineer at a semi-govt establishment (notice i didn't use the word "firm")
If the allegations that this land is all paper and no appreciation for those whom are good at what they do is correct, could anyone in the right frame of mind explain my case?
I don't know anyone in parliament. I don't have a degree. I don't have useful connections. All i was armed with was a low end self assembled PC / routing hardware (most of which i had worked my butt off to afford then) to fuel my interests in information technology.
Timing was a good bet, since my interests coincided with the govt's push for singapore to embrace IT. But other than that, it was nothing more than hardwork and a clear resolve.
If the govt and it's so said agenda to suppress the under priviledged is true, then i wouldn't be what i am today. The truth is, my employment history had never been far from govt linked companies!!
I have no idea about the background of those whom were complaining about the little pay they get out of NS, but maybe they may want to rethink about much more important things:
1. Your own will.
I have never been turned away by people just because i don't have paper. I believe i am not the only one, as i've known more whom are really "self-made" people in the same field and managed just the same with a dip.
2. Your Country.
Sure there are alot of folks blabbering about it is being pointless to fight and blah blah. But the truth is, patriotism in singapore isn't dead. In many cases, everybody have eyes to see that many WILL take a stand for their country when the need arises, even a slightest remark against our homeland in forums or in the public will spark off protest of some kind.
As my dad ever told me a long time ago, when you don't have your country, you will lose your home. What then is a person without a home? Nothing.
I don't want to sound like i am spreading gov propaganda or anything like that, it's just something to think about.
Because low pay or no pay, it does not outweigh the fact that it is your obligation to defend your home.
770 from the rose cross,
Peace Profound.
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"Neilson, for a chap out of the Massechusetts Institute of Technology, you're a major disappointment." - The Citi in the East
[This message has been edited by fraterlvx (edited 16 March 2002).] -
I think what fraterlvx has done is truly fantastic and admirable.
Maybe Kyo23 should take note of it and learn from there, he's been having a terrible bout of self-esteem and patriotism problems. :-) -
*claps*
Fraterlvx, at least u had a diploma of value. Which I guess at the time u completed it, was worth more than its weight. On fortunately, for this generation of students, one would need more than a diploma to command high pay. -
Nah, there's nothing for me to take note of when fraterlvx is of some exceptional case. Glad that fraterlvx's interest coincide with mine being an IT professional. True, Semi-govt or govt establishment will mostly employ only singaporean instead of foreign expatz due to security reason and not because you are valued for what you are. fraterlvx, try working outside in the private sector and compete with those foreigners and then you come back to comment. Would you still be a full professional system engineer in the company when they can get in lots of foreigner expatz with degree to replace you?
For one thing i noticed, you are easily content with your current status, job and pay. Would our MP be content so easily? how comfortable is your pay?? comfortable enuff to clear all your HDB debt/Housing loan or pay for the COE of your new car?? Without a degree nowsday, i like to see how far you can proceed up the organisation hierarchy. Well, it's good to be content with what you have. But is this the spirit our government is teaching and hence not demanding any pay increase??
Regarding your impt things:
1. Try competing in the private sector with the rest instead of being pampered and 'stuck' without advancement up the hierarchy in a govern link establishment and see if you can managed anymore the same with just a dip.
2. Did i imply that patriotism in singapore is dead? It's just that protest is sparked off due to unfairness done. Or should we keep quiet and be dog just for patriotism?
3. When the country is recognising foreign expatz's value rather than the citizen's. Would the person feel at home? When in the future your son as fresh grad came out to be jobless because so many foriegn expatz are available and holding up those jobs, would you still be contented and keep being a dog? How many local can we squeeze into the govn link sector? So many of our local talent hence shaked heir head and go for oversea for a better future, yet nothing is done but foreign expatz keep coming in.
Low pay or no pay, it does not outweigh the fact that we are forced and conscripted to serve in NS as cheap labour. Patriotism will not be defined until singapore is at war, and you see pple sacrificing themselve then and not now. Those who diligently serve in NS now might be the one who fleed singapore the first esp those MP, who know?
As i had mentioned b4, apathetic is the culture forced on us the common folk and the $$$ language theory was demonstrated and taught by our leaders. What more you want to complain about our attitude towards being a cheap labour? -
Since MAMA had pointed out about you being negative and personal in your post, now then i noticed. I wonder how old are you, as young as Shotgun who haven't even gone thru NS maybe taking his 'A' or dip, haven't even started working in the real world yet to know time is $$$ and 2.5 years is not insignificant. So are you willing to go for another round of 2.5 years of NS since you are talking about patriotism in the form of serving in NS diligently without complaint?Originally posted by Eyezer:Maybe Kyo23 should take note of it and learn from there, he's been having a terrible bout of self-esteem and patriotism problems. :-)
Action speak louder, so please go volunteer and show to the rest of us and i believe you. -
I am working for the private sector nowOriginally posted by Kyo23:....snip....try working outside in the private sector and compete with those foreigners and then you come back to comment.Would you still be a full professional system engineer in the company when they can get in lots of foreigner expatz with degree to replace you?
Not only a full SE, but something way above that now.how comfortable is your pay?? comfortable enuff to clear all your HDB debt/Housing loan or pay for the COE of your new car??
All that and then some.Without a degree nowsday, i like to see how far you can proceed up the organisation hierarchy. Well, it's good to be content with what you have. But is this the spirit our government is teaching and hence not demanding any pay increase??
Relax bud, it's not that bad. When i mentioned about hardwork, what i am really refering to was whether you can do your work well. Academical qualifications is important if you can afford it, because the foundation would be a good stepping stone in whatever fields you're interested in. But unfortunately in my case, the family didn't have money, so i didn't have much of a choice. Cannot seek out sponsors because result not exceptional .. you know, double trapped and all that.
Well, your employers or potential employers would most likely see if you know your stuff, your paper comes second and this applies to govt or private (even more so in private actually). Really, i speak from experience.
I have been travelling quite a bit in the past few years, noticed the people abroad has a different mentality. They study what they are interested in, sad to say though, it is not the same situation down here. But still ...
Regarding your impt things:
1. Try competing in the private sector with the rest instead of being pampered and 'stuck' without advancement up the hierarchy in a govern link establishment and see if you can managed anymore the same with just a dip.
Well it did happen and i already in the private sector now. Pay's also much higher than the govt linked companies i have worked for
. I saw some others made it that far as well.
2. Did i imply that patriotism in singapore is dead? It's just that protest is sparked off due to unfairness done. Or should we keep quiet and be dog just for patriotism?
3. When the country is recognising foreign expatz's value rather than the citizen's. Would the person feel at home? When in the future your son as fresh grad came out to be jobless because so many foriegn expatz are available and holding up those jobs, would you still be contented and keep being a dog? How many local can we squeeze into the govn link sector? So many of our local talent hence shaked heir head and go for oversea for a better future, yet nothing is done but foreign expatz keep coming in.
This is a chicken and the egg question. If you know how this country ticks, mayhap you will be less resistant to certain "policies".
As a patriot, i don't like the idea of too many foreigners on my soil, but without the foreign factor, our homeland will eat dust much sooner than expected.
Low pay or no pay, it does not outweigh the fact that we are forced and conscripted to serve in NS as cheap labour. Patriotism will not be defined until singapore is at war, and you see pple sacrificing themselve then and not now. Those who diligently serve in NS now might be the one who fleed singapore the first esp those MP, who know?
Yep, you got it there. But there will be no defence if nobody is prepared or are unwillingly to pull out the sword to help defend their homes. In any case, Shotgun is right about the fact that there are nowhere to flee to if this land gets a flying thunderhead coming it's way.
So might as well be prepared for it. Maybe, if you need a better example, think of it as protecting the integrity of your own family members and your own loved ones. They are after all, all that a person really has in life.
Take it easy bud, it isn't that bad. Come on, at least we're not eating dirt.
As i had mentioned b4, apathetic is the culture forced on us the common folk and the $$$ language theory was demonstrated and taught by our leaders. What more you want to complain about our attitude towards being a cheap labour?
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"Neilson, for a chap out of the Massechusetts Institute of Technology, you're a major disappointment." - The Citi in the East -
I have been all of the above and still living a life as satisfied as i want it to be. I don't see how the NS has disrupted my life, besides on the academic momentum side of things.Originally posted by Kyo23:Since MAMA had pointed out about you being negative and personal in your post, now then i noticed. I wonder how old are you, as young as Shotgun who haven't even gone thru NS maybe taking his 'A' or dip, haven't even started working in the real world yet to know time is $$$ and 2.5 years is not insignificant. So are you willing to go for another round of 2.5 years of NS since you are talking about patriotism in the form of serving in NS diligently without complaint?
Action speak louder, so please go volunteer and show to the rest of us and i believe you.
NS is treated as just another phase of my life, where everyone abled-male in my country goes thru'. I don't see whatz the fuss about the whole NS thing. Is it part of the 'kiasu' syndrome that happens to all singaporeans? Does that mean the earlier you get the job, the most secure you'll be? Can't believe that it's coming from someone that is 'surviving' well in the IT industry, supposedly the brainy industry. *sigh*
It seems that the shallow thought of the few years lost because of your NS affects your personal development and possibly a better job prospect(if any). One who is deeply concern with the foreign competition, the 'threat' of a iron rice bowl. Can you accept the good of all these arrangement at all? Expats are only here for the gd of our economic growth, and they are usually on short term contract. And i'm sure if the local proved to be as capable, they would get the job, why pay more for the foreign levy for someone who only knows as much as a local? Makes sense?
The market is seriously in need of people who proved to be capable in their fields, paper or not. I'm sure we've seen/heard people succeeding in life without a degree, haven't we?
Do not blame our NS liability on your progress in life, as they provide the foundation for our social stability and in turn attracted all the investers which provide you with jobs. Without that.... we'll be just a fishing village with some factories, perhaps.... =) Take it in good faith! -
Man, i hope this sentiment don't get lost to this generation. My girlfriend's younger brother just came out of the Army and is preparing for his further edu.Originally posted by Eyezer:The market is seriously in need of people who proved to be capable in their fields, paper or not.
What disturbs me was that when i asked the guy his reason for choosing a certain direction and a particular U, he just told me that he doesn't care, he just wants the paper.
???
Very worrying signs. -
An even more worrying signs is tat more and more local migrating oversea esp the younger generation whether married or not married with foreign partner.Originally posted by fraterlvx:Man, i hope this sentiment don't get lost to this generation. My girlfriend's younger brother just came out of the Army and is preparing for his further edu.
What disturbs me was that when i asked the guy his reason for choosing a certain direction and a particular U, he just told me that he doesn't care, he just wants the paper.
???
Very worrying signs. -
As a general guide, how many of your friends are already gone? Went overseas for studies and never looked back??
It is indeed worrying that our own countrymen are leaving the country, for reasons that they only knew. I believe some is because of the reservist training which they think hinder their career advancement, some because of the rising living costs in Sg, some for personal ambitions... the so call adventurous spirit encouraged by our country leaders. Just that they decided to apply in the other context.
Is overseas education that 'attractive' that everyone wants to go? If you are a potential employer, how would you rate this 'paper'?