Do you like NS after so much of harm it has caused?
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simple answer...do they know that it is illegal practise in the 1st place?Originally posted by dead_clone:but i'm sure quite a no. of ppl had gone thru similiar trng in d past few yrz, inclusive of d water treatment thingy... but y didn't any1 step out & bring it up when they're well aware of itz dangerz? y did they keep mum & give instructorz a false impression tt it'z a borderline safe practice tolerable 4 traineez?
do they know that even if they tell the secret or code they will pass?
who give the trainee the wrong impression in the 1st place?
weird that u are now blaming those who have gone thru the CST in the past few years..but not the instructors? maybe im wrong? -
my pt iz, illegal or not, every1 has d responsibility of highlighting trng tt putz d traineez' livez' in jeopardy. if it was pointed out early, thiz tragedy wldn't taken place...Originally posted by NathanG5:simple answer...do they know that it is illegal practise in the 1st place?
do they know that even if they tell the secret or code they will pass?
who give the trainee the wrong impression in the 1st place?
weird that u are now blaming those who have gone thru the CST in the past few years..but not the instructors? maybe im wrong?
if all traineez knew tt giving up asap will spare 'em d "torture", it defeatz d purpose of sending 'em 4 CST. i believe y these ppl were selected 2 go 4 trng iz bcoz of d role they play in timez of war. imagine every POW vomitting vital info 2 d enemy... how do we fight like thiz?
& i'm not blaming those who've gone thru CST or implying tt d instructorz r free of blame. i'm juz saying tt ppl shldn't juz condemn d instructorz onli. every1z' a victim in thiz tragedy... -
read my post up there again..if you understand...Originally posted by dead_clone:my pt iz, illegal or not, every1 has d responsibility of highlighting trng tt putz d traineez' livez' in jeopardy. if it was pointed out early, thiz tragedy wldn't taken place...
if all traineez knew tt giving up asap will spare 'em d "torture", it defeatz d purpose of sending 'em 4 CST. i believe y these ppl were selected 2 go 4 trng iz bcoz of d role they play in timez of war. imagine every POW vomitting vital info 2 d enemy... how do we fight like thiz?
& i'm not blaming those who've gone thru CST or implying tt d instructorz r free of blame. i'm juz saying tt ppl shldn't juz condemn d instructorz onli. every1z' a victim in thiz tragedy...
the true fact is that none of the trainee knew its illegal..if they knew its illegal dont you think will report the abuse?
who are the one who never tell them its illegal? the instructors right?
so who is to blame now?
another fact is..u cant train being tortured..n thats the fact...go read your own post again..i cant help it but to undertand that u are trying to blame the previous batch of trainee..
nobody seem to know the fact its peacetime training...CST help train us to survive..its call Combat Survival Training..read the middle word..whats the point of having this training?? if everybody who gone thru it dying??
the point is u can dont tell the trainee that they still pass if they leak out the info...but do we have to kill them?
in your post..you use "i believe"..
anything you cant see is not there...
once again do the previous batch of trainee know that dunking into water is illegal???
the answer is NO!!
so how can you blame those who dunno?
look at your 1st paragraph now...are you blaming the trainee?
read this thread before posting anything before u offense anyone..
im the 1st to flame you..i wont hesitate..
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=59607 -
btw..hope i didnt offense you..im pretty straight forward guy..
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no worriez abt stating ur opinionzOriginally posted by NathanG5:read my post up there again..if you understand...
the true fact is that none of the trainee knew its illegal..if they knew its illegal dont you think will report the abuse?
who are the one who never tell them its illegal? the instructors right?
so who is to blame now?
another fact is..u cant train being tortured..n thats the fact...go read your own post again..i cant help it but to undertand that u are trying to blame the previous batch of trainee..
nobody seem to know the fact its peacetime training...CST help train us to survive..its call Combat Survival Training..read the middle word..whats the point of having this training?? if everybody who gone thru it dying??
the point is u can dont tell the trainee that they still pass if they leak out the info...but do we have to kill them?
in your post..you use "i believe"..
anything you cant see is not there...
once again do the previous batch of trainee know that dunking into water is illegal???
the answer is NO!!
so how can you blame those who dunno?
look at your 1st paragraph now...are you blaming the trainee?
read this thread before posting anything before u offense anyone..
im the 1st to flame you..i wont hesitate..
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=59607
it takez viewz from many different anglez 2 make an unbiased judgement. ur viewz r oso in my consideration.
"the true fact is that none of the trainee knew its illegal..if they knew its illegal dont you think will report the abuse?"
i've read d thread u suggested but found no statementz saying tt none of traineez knew it was illegal. was it juz ur assumption? r u oso saying tt ppl shld onli complain when it'z illegal? & they shld give "legal but riskz livez" d thumbz up? my pt iz, legal or illegal, trng tt endangerz d life of a trainee shld b brought 2 our attention asap. if d earlier batchez who'd "survived" CST had complained long ago, thiz "dunk head into water tradition" wld hv been abolished b4 thiz tragedy took place...
"another fact is..u can't train being tortured"
a humane yet somehow unrealistic opinion bcoz it doezn't apply 2 all vocationz. do u think d enemy wld rather torture a rifleman who noez nth much of significance? scoutz, 4 eg, r some of d selected few 2 go 4 CST. u shld understand so i need not elaborate further. although i agree with u 2 a certain extent, "we train d way we will fight" appealz 2 mi more.
"nobody seem to know the fact its peacetime training...CST help train us to survive..its call Combat Survival Training..read the middle word..whats the point of having this training?? if everybody who gone thru it dying??"
put urself in d org'z shoez when u talk abt peacetime trng. 2 main concernz shld come 2 mind; safety & standardz. d org has been trying itz best 2 strike a very delicate balance between d 2 so as not 2 compromise any1 of 'em. peacetime trng iz oso 2 train an individual 2 his best on d role he playz in war, during d fragile peace tt we enjoy now. yes, CST iz all abt survival but survival from wat? it'z not juz abt finding food & avoid detection etc. it oso includez survival from torture. intel playz a major part in how a war iz fought. 2 gather intel iz hard but 2 guard it when u're being tortured as a POW iz even harder. tt'z where CST comez into play. dun u think those who'd successfully completed CST wld hv a higher chance of survivability in a real war?
"the point is u can dont tell the trainee that they still pass if they leak out the info...but do we have to kill them?"
d instructorz r not out 2 kill d traineez & plz dun make it sound like they r. it was purely an accident & not some kinda pre-planned murder. how'd u think they felt when they knew tt a life was lost in their handz? must they bear d brunt of it all when they were doing their job, following an accursed "tradition" which no1 questioned?
"in your post..you use "i believe"..
anything you cant see is not there...
once again do the previous batch of trainee know that dunking into water is illegal???
the answer is NO!!
so how can you blame those who dunno?
look at your 1st paragraph now...are you blaming the trainee?"
if u had read carefully, u wld hv realised tt i used those 2 wordz when i was solely trying 2 reason as 2 y not all but a selected few in national service has 2 go thru CST. & u seemed 2 b quite sure tt absolutely none of d traineez knew tt thiz practice iz illegal... somehow i beg 2 differ...
d above r my opinionz. i wun force it down anybody'z throat. read it with an open mind & u wun b offended. -
This is something not related to this thread, but is it possible for the author, dead clone, to translate what he typed in his latest reply into readable english please? It is because I am finding it a bit difficult to understand some abbreviations you used in there.
Sorry for any inconvenience caused. -
deja vu...
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may not be relevant to the thread because it's just a conversation with NathanG5. & i should be the one to apologise for using alien abbreviations. but translating the whole chunk takes too much time so i'll only be "decoding" the words here. paiseh paiseh...Originally posted by mfscrewu:This is something not related to this thread, but is it possible for the author, dead clone, to translate what he typed in his latest reply into readable english please? It is because I am finding it a bit difficult to understand some abbreviations you used in there.
Sorry for any inconvenience caused.
2 = to (applicable to most cases)
4 = for
abt = about
b = be
b4 = before
bcoz = because
d = the
dun = don't
eg = example
hv = have
intel = intelligence
mi = me
oso = also
org = organisation
pt = point
plz = please
r = are
shld = should
tt = that
trng = training
u = you
ur = your
wld = would
wun = won't -
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paiseh lah...Originally posted by wuming78: 
i had purposely placed them in alphabetical order 1 hor... -
Thanks for the translation.
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no problem...Originally posted by mfscrewu:Thanks for the translation. -
but previously when the army was hard people die by sucide
now 2.4 also can kill, some more its someone fit -
Originally posted by dead_clone:
do you seriously read every single post in that thread??
no worriez abt stating ur opinionz it takez viewz from many different anglez 2 make an unbiased judgement. ur viewz r oso in my consideration.
[b]"the true fact is that none of the trainee knew its illegal..if they knew its illegal dont you think will report the abuse?"
i've read d thread u suggested but found no statementz saying tt none of traineez knew it was illegal. was it juz ur assumption? r u oso saying tt ppl shld onli complain when it'z illegal? & they shld give "legal but riskz livez" d thumbz up? my pt iz, legal or illegal, trng tt endangerz d life of a trainee shld b brought 2 our attention asap. if d earlier batchez who'd "survived" CST had complained long ago, thiz "dunk head into water tradition" wld hv been abolished b4 thiz tragedy took place...
"another fact is..u can't train being tortured"
a humane yet somehow unrealistic opinion bcoz it doezn't apply 2 all vocationz. do u think d enemy wld rather torture a rifleman who noez nth much of significance? scoutz, 4 eg, r some of d selected few 2 go 4 CST. u shld understand so i need not elaborate further. although i agree with u 2 a certain extent, "we train d way we will fight" appealz 2 mi more.
"nobody seem to know the fact its peacetime training...CST help train us to survive..its call Combat Survival Training..read the middle word..whats the point of having this training?? if everybody who gone thru it dying??"
put urself in d org'z shoez when u talk abt peacetime trng. 2 main concernz shld come 2 mind; safety & standardz. d org has been trying itz best 2 strike a very delicate balance between d 2 so as not 2 compromise any1 of 'em. peacetime trng iz oso 2 train an individual 2 his best on d role he playz in war, during d fragile peace tt we enjoy now. yes, CST iz all abt survival but survival from wat? it'z not juz abt finding food & avoid detection etc. it oso includez survival from torture. intel playz a major part in how a war iz fought. 2 gather intel iz hard but 2 guard it when u're being tortured as a POW iz even harder. tt'z where CST comez into play. dun u think those who'd successfully completed CST wld hv a higher chance of survivability in a real war?
"the point is u can dont tell the trainee that they still pass if they leak out the info...but do we have to kill them?"
d instructorz r not out 2 kill d traineez & plz dun make it sound like they r. it was purely an accident & not some kinda pre-planned murder. how'd u think they felt when they knew tt a life was lost in their handz? must they bear d brunt of it all when they were doing their job, following an accursed "tradition" which no1 questioned?
"in your post..you use "i believe"..
anything you cant see is not there...
once again do the previous batch of trainee know that dunking into water is illegal???
the answer is NO!!
so how can you blame those who dunno?
look at your 1st paragraph now...are you blaming the trainee?"
if u had read carefully, u wld hv realised tt i used those 2 wordz when i was solely trying 2 reason as 2 y not all but a selected few in national service has 2 go thru CST. & u seemed 2 b quite sure tt absolutely none of d traineez knew tt thiz practice iz illegal... somehow i beg 2 differ...
d above r my opinionz. i wun force it down anybody'z throat. read it with an open mind & u wun b offended. [/b]
there is one post that mention no trainee will know that the dunking is illegal..read carefully..
yes im very very sure none of them know about it..
it was never a assumption...
i finish my NS..knowing half the thing my PC n Specs have done to me is illegal...
my fren in Recce unit just got to know that the dunking was illegal becos of the 2nd Sgt death..otherwise he will not know at all..
if recce troopers is not enough..how about the Cdos? do they know its illegal after or before the news? my answer is after...
do you dare to complain to anyone during your NS time about thing that is "legal"?
i guess you must have a good life in NS...
accusation onto me..i like it..great..
read up again..
unrealistic opinion??
its a fact..im not sure why you pull vocation down into this...its was never about vocation..as a human..tortured cant be train..thats a fact...aint a scouts human?? aint a Cdo human?
there are no such thing as survive from torture...if they wana kill u slow n easy..u still die anyway...how to survive??
yes i make it sound that they kill the trainee on purpose..you know why!!!!..cos im wondering y there are 5 more trainee who nearly die with 2nd Sgt Hu??? do you know there are 5 other trainee who nearly die?
so izit coincidence or what? simple fact is y the group before them gone thru it without harm? y only 2nd Sgt Hu group??
i will take it an offense once someone side with the instructors who cause the death..
i wont shaft it into your throat..but i will hit it hard into your brain..
but i have to agree with you..that anything illegal or legal that endangered life should be reported..
but to who?? Mindef Hotline?? if we go thru chain of command..the one who wana complain..do you think their complain are able to reach the O.C??
if we go straight to MPs..we are accuse of breaking the chain of command..n get charge..
only those who have good backing..or damn lucky are able to do this..or maybe a good PC..blah blah blah..
but your reason is stil valid..not like some in the other thread.. -
Dear Readers,
Can someone tell me if any of our soldiers have been sent to war, especially those promoted to the rank of BG, LT.General and Major General? If they have not are we able to entrust our safety to them? These regular soldiers are known only to bark orders and probably resulting in deaths and injuries. Hmmm I really like to see a battalion of these regular soldiers being sent to war zones like Iraq to play active roles before their promotion. (remember they are getting tax payer's money)!!! -
Dear Readers,
Can someone tell me if any of our soldiers have been sent to war, especially those promoted to the rank of BG, LT.General and Major General? If they have not are we able to entrust our safety to them? These regular soldiers are known only to bark orders and probably resulting in deaths and injuries. Hmmm I really like to see a battalion of these regular soldiers being sent to war zones like Iraq to play active roles before their promotion. (remember they are getting tax payer's money)!!! -
no i dun think any of our senior armed forces commanders haf been sent to war.Originally posted by relevation:Dear Readers,
Can someone tell me if any of our soldiers have been sent to war, especially those promoted to the rank of BG, LT.General and Major General? If they have not are we able to entrust our safety to them? These regular soldiers are known only to bark orders and probably resulting in deaths and injuries. Hmmm I really like to see a battalion of these regular soldiers being sent to war zones like Iraq to play active roles before their promotion. (remember they are getting tax payer's money)!!!
den again, how many senior armed forces commanders around the world haf actualli been to an actual war?
tt is y armed forces around the world learn from lessons gained by actual warfare, benchmark against the more developed armed forces (e.g. US) and adopt similar trg practises. in the end, we all wish we will never need to put all these trg to good use.
mabbe u like to tell us y u made the comment abt wanting to see regulars sent to war zones? -
heh heh, i'm back again
yeah i read the threads (in fact, my eyes were swollen because of all that reading ) but i still couldn't find the part you wanted me to see leh . anyway, my doubt is how did they arrive at this "fact"? did they interview trainees from the very 1st batch to trainees from the most recent batch? 80 over batches with possibly about a 1000 trainees and no one had a clue? i mean you can't generalise that absolutely no one knows just because the people you have approached didn't know. k lah, you know what i'm trying to say...
haha , your guess about me having a good life in NS is wrong lah. i'm also no WH. but your question to me of whether i dared to complain gives me the impression that actually you have alot of issues to bring up to your superiors but dare not because you were afraid of the aftermath. but this is exactly the type of wrong mentality i've been trying to address. alot of people have personally suffered at the mistakes that the organisation had made but instead kept silent. and the mistakes carries on & on until something drastic happens. in this case the unfortunate demise of 2SG Hu is to remind us of that fact. "what didn't happen to you doesn't mean it won't happen to others", that's what i think.
yes, i agree that all CST trainees are human. but do not forget that humans have roles to play in their lives. like you, for example, the role you played was a RP. the reason why vocation was brought into the picture is that for the scouts and commandoes, their roles in war is of tactical significance. they may be handling useful military intelligence that the enemy is looking for. if they were to become POWs, succumbed to torture and spilled the beans, it could mean very bad news to our own forces. reason why they were trained this way in CST, is in hope that they can withstand the torture and still guard the intelligence. anyway, you can't kill POWs because the convention forbids it. no worries about that, ok?
you said that the detail before 2SG Hu's gone through without harm. but did they skip the water treatment? i don't think so. the reason why 2SG Hu's detail got it different is because the instructors had upset the very delicate balance between safety and standards at that time. it's really about being at the wrong place at the wrong time because it could happen to the detail before or after 2SG Hu. they have absolutely no intention of really to kill them but only to break them down considerably.
i'm not siding with the instructors or 2SG Hu. i have to remain neutral so that i can try to make an unbiased judgement that is not clouded by emotions. what i'm trying to show you is the side you have refused to acknowledge as one of the mitigating factors. i can see that most peoples' heart goes out to 2SG Hu but to let the group of instructors take full responsibility is just plain unfair. actually, in fact, i would have condemned the instructors too if this water treatment is their brainchild but it's not. it has been a dangerous "tradition" which was passed down from long ago. experienced by previous trainees who had turned a blind eye to it because of the fear of getting into trouble with the higher authorities.
if you are to complain about trivial matters, you'll find yourself at the bottom of a sh!thole of course. but in this case, your complaint is invaluable because it could mean preventing possible deaths in future. i'm sure the MPs would be more than willing to support your cause. what fear would you have then? if the complaint gets through, it could mean saving your son and the sons of a whole lot of people in future. do not hesitate if your cause is constructive.
i'm also glad to see that you are not as offended like previously and that you find some sense in my post. 10 Q. -
wah seh.. super long thread.
recommend tt for such threads, separate ur points into paras and give each para a heading, so its easier for ppl who wanna noe wat u toking abt in a glance. better still, highlight the impt sentences! -
did participants of the very 1st war in the world ask that too? saying that they're known only to bark orders is just plain unfair because fortunately, they don't have a chance to yet. and do you mean we should start a war now so that they can prove their worth?Originally posted by relevation:Dear Readers,
Can someone tell me if any of our soldiers have been sent to war, especially those promoted to the rank of BG, LT.General and Major General? If they have not are we able to entrust our safety to them? These regular soldiers are known only to bark orders and probably resulting in deaths and injuries. Hmmm I really like to see a battalion of these regular soldiers being sent to war zones like Iraq to play active roles before their promotion. (remember they are getting tax payer's money)!!!
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i have to disagree with you on "wrong time, wrong place" ...it is too coincidence for that to happen.."wrong time, wrong place" is an answer too simple..Originally posted by dead_clone:heh heh, i'm back again
yeah i read the threads (in fact, my eyes were swollen because of all that reading ) but i still couldn't find the part you wanted me to see leh . anyway, my doubt is how did they arrive at this "fact"? did they interview trainees from the very 1st batch to trainees from the most recent batch? 80 over batches with possibly about a 1000 trainees and no one had a clue? i mean you can't generalise that absolutely no one knows just because the people you have approached didn't know. k lah, you know what i'm trying to say...
haha , your guess about me having a good life in NS is wrong lah. i'm also no WH. but your question to me of whether i dared to complain gives me the impression that actually you have alot of issues to bring up to your superiors but dare not because you were afraid of the aftermath. but this is exactly the type of wrong mentality i've been trying to address. alot of people have personally suffered at the mistakes that the organisation had made but instead kept silent. and the mistakes carries on & on until something drastic happens. in this case the unfortunate demise of 2SG Hu is to remind us of that fact. "what didn't happen to you doesn't mean it won't happen to others", that's what i think.
yes, i agree that all CST trainees are human. but do not forget that humans have roles to play in their lives. like you, for example, the role you played was a RP. the reason why vocation was brought into the picture is that for the scouts and commandoes, their roles in war is of tactical significance. they may be handling useful military intelligence that the enemy is looking for. if they were to become POWs, succumbed to torture and spilled the beans, it could mean very bad news to our own forces. reason why they were trained this way in CST, is in hope that they can withstand the torture and still guard the intelligence. anyway, you can't kill POWs because the convention forbids it. no worries about that, ok?
you said that the detail before 2SG Hu's gone through without harm. but did they skip the water treatment? i don't think so. the reason why 2SG Hu's detail got it different is because the instructors had upset the very delicate balance between safety and standards at that time. it's really about being at the wrong place at the wrong time because it could happen to the detail before or after 2SG Hu. they have absolutely no intention of really to kill them but only to break them down considerably.
i'm not siding with the instructors or 2SG Hu. i have to remain neutral so that i can try to make an unbiased judgement that is not clouded by emotions. what i'm trying to show you is the side you have refused to acknowledge as one of the mitigating factors. i can see that most peoples' heart goes out to 2SG Hu but to let the group of instructors take full responsibility is just plain unfair. actually, in fact, i would have condemned the instructors too if this water treatment is their brainchild but it's not. it has been a dangerous "tradition" which was passed down from long ago. experienced by previous trainees who had turned a blind eye to it because of the fear of getting into trouble with the higher authorities.
if you are to complain about trivial matters, you'll find yourself at the bottom of a sh!thole of course. but in this case, your complaint is invaluable because it could mean preventing possible deaths in future. i'm sure the MPs would be more than willing to support your cause. what fear would you have then? if the complaint gets through, it could mean saving your son and the sons of a whole lot of people in future. do not hesitate if your cause is constructive.
i'm also glad to see that you are not as offended like previously and that you find some sense in my post. 10 Q.
u claim the treatment of the instructors unfair...is the death fair?
then who is to blame?
u claim tradition is at fault..who created the tradition?
the Ranger Cadre? i wont say much on it...think about it..who is in the ranger cadre? some young 23 year old regular??
seriously your post is so naive till i cant bear to break your heart..
u claim that they dont have the intention to kill the trainee? seem that you know the instructor?
to you the answer is so simple..just a click of thumb..n thats the answer..
convention say cant kill..do u think seriously every enemy soldier will care about that?
once again you blame the previous batch of trainee in your post..
there is only one group of people to blame..the trainee..
the instructors are free of guilt..what a joke..
yes i doubt your life in NS...your post show sign naive..cant be a person from a tough unit.. -
no use replying to this kinda crap...they just dun understand..Originally posted by dead_clone:did participants of the very 1st war in the world ask that too? saying that they're known only to bark orders is just plain unfair because fortunately, they don't have a chance to yet. and do you mean we should start a war now so that they can prove their worth?
to them fighting a war is so easy..like singing.. -
argh~! there you go again, always assuming... doesn't mean that if things are too much of a coincidence are all pre-planned, right? and what is it exactly that make you feel that way? were you at the scene? well, i'm not so i don't assume everything like you did.Originally posted by NathanG5:i have to disagree with you on "wrong time, wrong place" ...it is too coincidence for that to happen.."wrong time, wrong place" is an answer too simple..
u claim the treatment of the instructors unfair...is the death fair?
then who is to blame?
u claim tradition is at fault..who created the tradition?
the Ranger Cadre? i wont say much on it...think about it..who is in the ranger cadre? some young 23 year old regular??
seriously your post is so naive till i cant bear to break your heart..
u claim that they dont have the intention to kill the trainee? seem that you know the instructor?
to you the answer is so simple..just a click of thumb..n thats the answer..
convention say cant kill..do u think seriously every enemy soldier will care about that?
once again you blame the previous batch of trainee in your post..
there is only one group of people to blame..the trainee..
the instructors are free of guilt..what a joke..
yes i doubt your life in NS...your post show sign naive..cant be a person from a tough unit..
i'm sure you're very clear of who caused the death. but have you thought about what caused it? why was water treatment still in practice despite its dangers? didn't anyone realise that it could kill?
does it really matter who created the "tradition"? the main concern is why was it allowed to be in practice for so many batches. and here you assume again that the one who started implementing the 1st water treatment was "some young 23 year old regular in the ranger cadre"...
i have to make it clear that i do not know any of the parties involved in this tragedy. till now, i still don't have any answers to this incident no matter how i snap my fingers. reason being i don't know everything. all my previous post are only considerations, not conclusion.
and it appears that you are the naive one. because all your replies so far shows that there is only one thing in your mind.
"2SG Hu was drowned to death by the instructors. they are to shoulder all responsibilities and blame of his death. end of story."
here i am trying to share with you some of the causes but you decided to get defensive and brush them off as "naive". you already have a mental block and refuse to consider any other logical factors that's not in tune to yours. it's not just about who died & who caused it... not as simple as you think...
let me explain my views in this simple example:
in a narrow corridor there was a puddle of water.
bro walked into it and slipped. but he regained his balance so he was unhurt.
sis walked into it and slipped too. but she regained her balance and was also unhurt.
then came nephew and niece. they were playing when they walked into the puddle. coincidentally, niece slipped and broke her wrists when nephew gave her a push.
uncle heard the commotion and rushed to see what had happened. he then punished nephew for causing her to slip.
the puddle was later cleaned up by uncle.
my opinion is, why couldn't it be this way:
in a narrow corridor there was a puddle of water.
bro walked into it and slipped. but he regained his balance so he was unhurt. then he realised that someone else could slip too if the puddle was left alone. the puddle was later cleaned up by bro.
get my point? it doesn't matter who or what caused the puddle. it's about the responsibility of the 1st person who comes across it to clear it up as soon as possible to prevent accidents. did nephew make that puddle? did he intend to cause niece so much pain? why didn't bro or sis clean it up when they knew of the hazards? the puddle or the push alone by itself shouldn't hurt but put them together and disaster strikes.
and finally, you had to end your reply with yet another assumption. what makes you so sure that i'm not from a tough unit? you mean to tell me that a RP at an airbase had it tougher than i did?
i'm disgusted to see that you have a bad habit of "selective reading" which distorts my original intentions so that you can get a chance to flame me... you should also change your those-not-on-my-side-shall-be-flamed attitude because it is childish... -
ic..you insist that the instructor is not to be blame..Originally posted by dead_clone:argh~! there you go again, always assuming... doesn't mean that if things are too much of a coincidence are all pre-planned, right? and what is it exactly that make you feel that way? were you at the scene? well, i'm not so i don't assume everything like you did.
i'm sure you're very clear of who caused the death. but have you thought about what caused it? why was water treatment still in practice despite its dangers? didn't anyone realise that it could kill?
does it really matter who created the "tradition"? the main concern is why was it allowed to be in practice for so many batches. and here you assume again that the one who started implementing the 1st water treatment was "some young 23 year old regular in the ranger cadre"...
i have to make it clear that i do not know any of the parties involved in this tragedy. till now, i still don't have any answers to this incident no matter how i snap my fingers. reason being i don't know everything. all my previous post are only considerations, not conclusion.
and it appears that you are the naive one. because all your replies so far shows that there is only one thing in your mind.
"2SG Hu was drowned to death by the instructors. they are to shoulder all responsibilities and blame of his death. end of story."
here i am trying to share with you some of the causes but you decided to get defensive and brush them off as "naive". you already have a mental block and refuse to consider any other logical factors that's not in tune to yours. it's not just about who died & who caused it... not as simple as you think...
let me explain my views in this simple example:
in a narrow corridor there was a puddle of water.
bro walked into it and slipped. but he regained his balance so he was unhurt.
sis walked into it and slipped too. but she regained her balance and was also unhurt.
then came nephew and niece. they were playing when they walked into the puddle. coincidentally, niece slipped and broke her wrists when nephew gave her a push.
uncle heard the commotion and rushed to see what had happened. he then punished nephew for causing her to slip.
the puddle was later cleaned up by uncle.
my opinion is, why couldn't it be this way:
in a narrow corridor there was a puddle of water.
bro walked into it and slipped. but he regained his balance so he was unhurt. then he realised that someone else could slip too if the puddle was left alone. the puddle was later cleaned up by bro.
get my point? it doesn't matter who or what caused the puddle. it's about the responsibility of the 1st person who comes across it to clear it up as soon as possible to prevent accidents. did nephew make that puddle? did he intend to cause niece so much pain? why didn't bro or sis clean it up when they knew of the hazards? the puddle or the push alone by itself shouldn't hurt but put them together and disaster strikes.
and finally, you had to end your reply with yet another assumption. what makes you so sure that i'm not from a tough unit? you mean to tell me that a RP at an airbase had it tougher than i did?
i'm disgusted to see that you have a bad habit of "selective reading" which distorts my original intentions so that you can get a chance to flame me... you should change your those-not-on-my-side-shall-be-flamed attitude because it is childish...
n assume the im assuming..you say it yourself..you dunno the instructors or anyone involve...there are some who knows
read the sentence on "some young 23 year old regular in the ranger cadre"...if you read carefully enough..you understand what i mean..there you are assuming that im assuming..
so to you the one with greater sin is those who didnt report the illegal training..n not the instructors?
answer me that 1st...
i dont have a mental block..sorry..i hate it when people come in here n throw in "the instructor is not to be blame..cos they are only doing their job n those who should be blame are those who didnt report the illegal training" theory..n its not logical at all..
look at your little story again...if the nephew never intentionally push the niece..will the niece have a broken wrist??
in your story..the water never affect the little ger..it was the nephew right?
once again your story blame those previous batches of trainee..
n the instructor was never to blame at all..the nephew get away with it..cos u assume its the puddle of water that cause the problem..not the nephew..
on my comment about you not being in a tough unit..i will sitck with it..
so you think RP in a airbase is not as tough as you? fine with it..doesnt bother me anyway..btw..you are assuming too..
im not disgusted with you dont worry..its ok that you are disgusted with me..
i told you before..im pretty straight forward person..if you think its childish..fine with me again..i will stil bash my way thru..
n its weird that you treat it as flaming??
btw..about your story again
i assume it shld be like this..
"then came nephew and niece. they were playing when they walked into the puddle. coincidentally, niece slipped and broke her wrists
when she slip on the puddle of water..at the same time the nephew was pushing her.."
right? -
double post