Importance Of Going Into A University
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Aha! I was thinking that you did something along the lines of Literature!Originally posted by CX:its been fun and stimulating, but i can't help but think that we're talking over each other and engaging OURSELVES rather than each other
our understanding of the world at large is based on fundamentally different benchmarks i guess...
i majored in history and although that might be considered by many to be a discipline firmly rooted in "reality", a degree in it forces us to engage the questions of what exactly that "reality" constitutes and how it has been constructed.
so u really have to indulge my cynicism if they do appear offensive and irrational to you not many pple have the patience or the open mind to engage the abstract. they like the firmness and certainty of "facts" when i will question the very essence of that fact, its very existence and its veracity and validity.
it pisses pple off when they cannot properly understand such doubts. its not cartesian logic. its post-structuralism... started with literature and slowly creeped across the arts and social sciences disciplines... most undergrads who've been through it will attest to how bizarre, esoteric and dense it is
basically, they'll tell u that there's no such thing as "truth" I had a brush with post-structuralism when I did Media at undergraduate level, but I chose to go for a pseudoscience like Psych instead. You're right - with a subject like history, you do need to question the elements reported as fact. In psych, it's different because the emphasis is on measurement of dimensions that have a discrete definition, and it pretty much works on the basic tenet of Chaos Theory: if you can account for all of the applicable elements, you can predict anything.
This debate's been an absolute gas! In a way, we've answered viruskid's question. Apart from the obvious benefits to employability, a fringe benefit of a university education is in developing the enjoyment of intellectual pursuits! -
haha... welcome Atobe...
its just intellectual bluff-ology to some extent lah... not as if pple will read through all that stuff right? its basically a conversation between Gendakan and moi...
thanks G, for indulging in my cynicism.
just to clarify my position... i'm not a big fan of post-structuralism... i'm at best, a sneaky relativist... or maybe that makes me an extreme post-modernist cos i believe that no one position is absolutely correct.
it is an extremely scary position to be in really... to actually question, and start to believe to varying extents, that the world around u is made up of very elaborate half-truths... i still don't agree with G's definition of facts and factuality, but hey, if everyone thought like the post-structuralists, we'll be in total despair cos there'll be nothing left to believe in and live for
yeah, G is absolutely correct in stating that going through uni is essentially a mental exercise that conditions one's mind to handle complex intellectual issues.
its not the theories or the syllabus, but how we've applied it at the end of the day. there is a qualitative difference... u see the world differently and u are able to express such differences with a more complex vocabulary. (which is probably why some will accuse grads of being intellectually pretentious and dressy in their speech... the original premises which this argument was based on...)
but then again, different pple take away different things from a uni education... some see it as a means to an end, some see it as an end in itself, some just don't see what the point is even though they're in it...
one thing that uni has done for me, is that it has helped me think and decide for myself. hasn't really made me a lotta money, but that was never the point for me in the first place... its really an issue of how u wanna live, not how much u wanna study. -
Hi CX, for some 'intellectual bluff-ology' it was well executed, and tremendously entertaining for anyone following both sides of a very stimulating exchange, and more so for one who is 'on the road'.
However one encounter the facts that are faced, and opinions formulated, and whichever manner that a student decide his goals for a university education, the benefits of challenges of facing a few years of Life in a University cannot be diminished.
The value of University Education will depend very much on how the courses are conducted that will challenge and develop initiative, resource, enterprise, intelligence, patience and perseverence in the individual student.
It will help to mould and challenge the immature mind of a High School 'kid' into the world of independent disciplined research, either working individually or as a group.
At the State Level, this has been recognised by the Productivity & Innovation Group of SPRING, Singapore - that it is important for Singapore to have a critical mass of at least 65% of the workforce to be educated beyond Secondary Education.
This recognition is not merely for Singaporean to be an economic auto-bot, but with university education nurturing and developing talent - which is the key resource in a knowledge-based economy.
Earlier in 2003, the Straits Times had featured a list of China's new tycoons, who are mostly in their 40s, and all had at least a university degree, and are self-made business people - with an average fortune of S$165 million, and the top performer's fortune estimated at S$1.3 billion (first published by Shenzhen-based New Fortune magazine).
If your present economic position is not to your satisfaction, perhaps it will be good if you can find the Challenge of your Life, and develop an adventurous spirit that will provide you with the confidence to step out of your comfort zone
There are many Venture Capitalists around nowadays, and although hungry to invest, they are warily helpful in any viable projects that can result in reasonable return. -
Originally posted by ViRuSKiD:I have been wondering if going into a University is so important , people told me that if u go into a university u will be more sucessful and have a easier life after u get the diploma but is it true that going into a University is so important? I have ask a lot of people and they said that if they only have Poly Dip. , its hard to find a job.. and very "no face" but if u have University Deg. , you can find job easily and also when people ask about your level of education u can proudly say u are university graduate. So far i have seen other exception whereby its the poly student who is more sucessful then the University students. the only paper that talks is dough. long greens. i'm talking cold hard cash, dig? who cares you only PSLE or what? there are other ways to get there besides being a post-graduate employee.
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i told u... its not how much u study or how much u make... its how u choose to live.Originally posted by Atobe:If your present economic position is not to your satisfaction, perhaps it will be good if you can find the Challenge of your Life, and develop an adventurous spirit that will provide you with the confidence to step out of your comfort zone
There are many Venture Capitalists around nowadays, and although hungry to invest, they are warily helpful in any viable projects that can result in reasonable return.
if its one thing that uni has taught me, its that life is about quality, not quantity. its not the stuff u own, or the dough u make... its about how well u're leading it, nurturing yourself and taking care of your loved ones... i don't need to be rich to be happy.
and its not like i'm lazy, or not stretching myself, or not "entrepreneurial", i just don't see myself as one who runs the race or climbs the ladder. -
well, as parents always say : "boy ar/ GIrl ar, must study u noe.. it's very important, if not, u'll end up being a waste collector or a job which not many favours.." As cliche as it sounds rite... y r they always saying this?
as years go by, the standard of living has risen gradually, let alone the cost of living.. this means that u must be financially capable in order to meet these needs... How r u going to earn more then? Still, academic qualifications are the paramount factor in deciding whether u'll be able to get the job... but this may not be true, as i've a friend who's only armed with a dip but managed to get employed after 2 interviews... and guess what, she faced quite a stiff competition, as , there's another candidate who's got a degree in the same disciplne... But i still do feel that a degree is a kind of insurance. It tends to secure u psychologically... .
hmmm, any comments? -
CX, I think we are agreed that the main aim of a university education is to broaden one's mind. However, on Atobe's point, wouldn't you agree that the money-making aspect of having a degree is a welcome fringe benefit? After all, money can be used wisely to improve quality of life.
In my case, as I posted on the salary thread, I have just left a job in Melbourne to return to Singapore for a year. In that job, the actual time spent working was about four hours a day typically, the rest of which was spent mucking about on the Internet. Seriously, pulling in 5 grand a month on a strict 37.5-hour week allowed me to easily pursue other interests. Most of my free time was spent giving my former classmates swift kicks up the arse to finish their theses, during which I had a lot of fun learning about their thesis content. I also used my recruitment experience to help other friends find jobs. That still left me with enough free time to learn latin dancing, work on my tan and explore restaurants.
Over and above all that, the qualification has given me the credence to state my terms at work, in that I have the luxury of choosing the work that I want to do. I had a lot of fun in my last role in market research, although it was admittedly thin on statistical analysis, which I do enjoy (yes, I'm a nerd). Before that job, I spent a fun six months researching and developing policy on the implementation of wireless local area networks at my old university. My point is that with my university qualifications, I could afford to look for jobs that actually interested me.
On a separate point, the outsider may, I suppose, be forgiven for thinking that the language used by degree holders is a wank. However, I think you would agree that it in fact serves a purpose - it allows us to state what we mean most clearly and precisely, rather than being limited by more colloquial vocabulary. The vernacular, after all, can often be somewhat ambiguous. -
I suppose it can be seen that way, Tranquil, although one does need to be wary of the flip side: even if having the degree does make you feel better, if you have to fall back upon it, something is seriously amiss.Originally posted by tranquil2:i've a friend who's only armed with a dip but managed to get employed after 2 interviews... and guess what, she faced quite a stiff competition, as , there's another candidate who's got a degree in the same disciplne... But i still do feel that a degree is a kind of insurance. It tends to secure u psychologically... .
hmmm, any comments?
I have never had to use the title of Doctor to pull rank on anybody, and I would never want to - the only thing it shows is that my logic is not strong enough to stand on its own. -
come on... its not as if i'm one of those pretentious tree hugging bum who wants to live in a tent and hunt his own food. nor am i one of those underachieving, lazy losers who's just not interested in making his life work.
i just think that there's more to life than making money and running the rat race... don't get me wrong, i like money, and i like spending money, i just think that its senseless to let it rule your life cos its never gonna be enough, and u can't take it with u when u die.
i make enough, i do my best at work, if just rewards comes my way, thats fine. thats my attitude to life. sure, there're challenges to surmount, sickening pple to handle and all the stuff that comes with "work" (that dirty 4-letter word), and i do it just fine.
i just don't like to let work and money rule my life... like i said, its how u choose to live... can work your arse off by aspiring to live like a king, or you could just live at a comfortable level that your income allows u to... without stretching yourself too thin on credit and requiring u to work O.T, take on freelance assignments and fight for that big promotion/pay-rise.
sometimes, the best things in life comes your way by you not trying too hard for it. i just believe in doing my best. -
CX, I can understand your positions in not making 'MONEY' to be 'THE All and End All' goal in your life, and for your decision not to participate in the rat race; as well as for your contentment with the status quo that you have achieved up till now.
Some prefer not to step up to lead, and prefer to be a worker, while others bask with pleasure and satisfaction in the spot light of grand achievements.
We have architects and engineers beaming at the completion of monumental projects of Republic Plaza, UOB Plaza, and similar projects like the SUNTEC City; and we have those who qualify as Architects and Engineers preferring smaller challenges with similar quality of satisfaction.
We also have people who prefer not to be at the front end being a Brigade Commander or Battalion Commander, preferring to be lower level Commander at the Company, or Platoon, or at the Section Level.
I guess it will take different kinds of people to make up a Community, and it certainly is true that it cannot be a situation where everyone becomes the 'Indian Chief' and no one will be the followers.
The reality is that it take different personalities to make-up the very interesting environment that we live in, and present us with the challenges of a market place for the different goods and services that are needed.
However, it is a pity that for someone - who possesses a 'highly trained' intellect, and supposedly with equivalent years of experience, will prefer to step back and watch the World go by - not that anyone can fault you on your decision.
The fact that you have to make adjustments to tolerate working with people while performing your level best in your work, will already require you to be in the rat race, without competing in it.
The search for 'Higher Levels of Satisfaction in Achievements' need not result in any rat-race, if you allow yourself to believe that such an environment exist, or at least insulate yourself from being in it by working at your own standards to achieve the goals of the assignment.
The rat race is one in which we try to out do someone else at a personal level.
Competition in the market place exist between rival companies, it adds to the distinct challenges and flavor of the work, and can hardly be termed as part of the rat race.
Competition is what that bring out the best in humans, as had occurred when the USA was rudely awaken to the Space Race, when Russia launched a Sputnik satellite that flew over the USA.
It is a real pity for someone with the training that you have, will prefer to 'sit back' and not take a more 'prominent role' in the enterprise of developing the Community.
Someone had once said that the Community contributed to one's education at the University, and the Graduates have a social responsibility to assist in the development of the Community.
The calling of Singapore today, is for a New Generation of Entrepreneurs to bring this country called Singapore to a higher level of economic activity, and in doing so perhaps lessen the need for Government participation to move the economic wheel.
At the end of it all, what will be the use of each Singaporean Male performing National Service to provide Singapore with a Military Option, but allowing Singapore to be weakened economically in the current economic model that Singapore is built upon. -
Everyone has their points and to really understand each points and views, you really have to open up your own mind deep within.
....Knowlegde is good but without the life "X" factor its hard to reach the goal you are looking for and its the same looking from their angle. Learn to know when to start and stop what is visible and when to push on.
Your topic will have alot of "Yes and No" as its a double egde sword which cuts both side, hope you could see the point. -
Originally posted by Atobe:
i have no arguments with that.
I guess it will take different kinds of people to make up a Community, and it certainly is true that it cannot be a situation where everyone becomes the 'Indian Chief' and no one will be the followers.
The reality is that it take different personalities to make-up the very interesting environment that we live in, and present us with the challenges of a market place for the different goods and services that are needed.However, it is a pity that for someone - who possesses a 'highly trained' intellect, and supposedly with equivalent years of experience, will prefer to step back and watch the World go by - not that anyone can fault you on your decision.
why's that a pity? am i to bear the burdens of the nation on my shoulders? don't i have problems of my own to attend to? don't we have the most highly paid and capable civil servants and politicians to take care of ALL our problems for us?The fact that you have to make adjustments to tolerate working with people while performing your level best in your work, will already require you to be in the rat race, without competing in it.
so how is one to be in a "rat race" of your definition, if they decline, like i do, to try and outdo their peers? maybe i just manage to do so without trying? i don't judge... my bosses do.
The search for 'Higher Levels of Satisfaction in Achievements' need not result in any rat-race, if you allow yourself to believe that such an environment exist, or at least insulate yourself from being in it by working at your own standards to achieve the goals of the assignment.
The rat race is one in which we try to out do someone else at a personal level.Competition in the market place exist between rival companies, it adds to the distinct challenges and flavor of the work, and can hardly be termed as part of the rat race.
i'll agree to disagree on this one... not all competition is positive... some are plain wasteful and unproductive. like office politics and in-fighting... makes an office look like afghanistan without getting an ounce of work done. i'm firmly against, and aloof of all that.
Competition is what that bring out the best in humans, as had occurred when the USA was rudely awaken to the Space Race, when Russia launched a Sputnik satellite that flew over the USA.It is a real pity for someone with the training that you have, will prefer to 'sit back' and not take a more 'prominent role' in the enterprise of developing the Community.
the community is made up of INDIVIDUALS. stop thinking of everthing within the framework of the PAP collective.
Someone had once said that the Community contributed to one's education at the University, and the Graduates have a social responsibility to assist in the development of the Community.
now, government scholars who went to uni on a taxpayer's meal ticket have a responsibility (and even a debt) to society. the under-graduate who had to take on 3 jobs a sem to make ends' meet owes it to themelves and no one else for his success.
it would seem that u advocate a society based on diversity, but you would deny me my individuality and differences because u think i need to "play my part"... and what part is there to play, but that which the individual chooses for himself? why should anyone be forced to contribute in fixed ways? isn't the man on the street working his arse off and minding his own business contributing as well?
thats the problem with this place... we pay lips service and we like to "wayang". everything has to be exaggerated and overt, critics have to be loud and unruly, graduates are the leaders of society... u're such a conformist... no offence, u quote very well, but u don't seem to have made up your own mind yet...The calling of Singapore today, is for a New Generation of Entrepreneurs to bring this country called Singapore to a higher level of economic activity, and in doing so perhaps lessen the need for Government participation to move the economic wheel.
so wat's your point? jumping on the entrepreneurial bandwagon like a bunch of clueless lemmings is your idea of one doing his part for society?At the end of it all, what will be the use of each Singaporean Male performing National Service to provide Singapore with a Military Option, but allowing Singapore to be weakened economically in the current economic model that Singapore is built upon.
i'm not interested in holes which the government digs for itself. i won't lend them a shovel to bury me in either... ultimately, the best thing an individual can do for the country is to BE an individual.
nobody predicted globalisation, nobody predicted that the world will move so fast that we have to either keep running, or be roadkill.
u can't control or change the superstructure, but u can choose HOW to live. that has always been my point. the hell with socially constructed notions and pap conceived "roles".
why the heck can't a person just be himself here? -
CX, no offense intended but I like your style.
Sure, we have those highly paid and capable civil servants and politicians to settle ALL our problems for us, but are you satisfied enough with the present situation and not to take any further actions beyond accepting the status quo for yourself ?
What about the future for your children, or will you let them fight their own battles ?
There will always be black and white, negative and positive forces that will overwhelm us unless we are either stronger than those forces or thread carefully through a beaten path and steer clear of those combative environments.
We cannot always escape into a cocoon and insulate ourselves completely from negative or positive competition, and not take stock of the situation, but always allow others to dictate the environment that we live or work in.
Each individual owe as much to the Community, as he owes to himself for his own existence and his status within the Community - regardless if a undergrad has to take on 3 jobs to finish his degree, he still is indebted to the Community, as without the funding from the Community, the university would not have existed.
No one makes progress alone by himself, not even LKY – who will not be who he is today without Singapore.
Singapore will probably be what she is today, with or without LKY, as it was already a thriving metropolis during the early days of Singapore in the 19th Century, compared to the surrounding trade centres of the day.
Singapore will probably arrive at her present First World status via another route, another personality, another vision, another political philosophy, as there were leaders with vision in the various communities that gathered in Singapore throughout our history.
There was no attempt to deny you of your individuality - in preferring to STEP OUT of any contributory and public role that you can probably assume, based on your leading qualification in education and experience as a University Graduate.
While we lament on the omni-presence of GLCs in servicing every aspect of our daily needs to survive in Singapore, and the stifling competition that result in killing the Small and Medium Enterprises that result in killing the entrepreneurial spirit, it will be quite necessary for every and any willing Singaporean to prove the Government wrong that we are unable and unwilling to be our own Masters.
Far from being a conformist, many Singaporeans have been ‘spreading our wings’ way before DPM LHL (heading the 1985 Economic Review Committee) had decided to adopt this cliché; and there were many Singaporeans who succeeded, and also gained experience from failures, in venturing abroad since independence.
Many entrepreneurs have started on the same premise as you have, by being fed up with the eternal petty office politicking that seemed to exist in every organization; and despite resigning oneself to a corner, and exactly as you have to face - “there're challenges to surmount, sickening pple to handle and all the stuff that comes with "work" (that dirty 4-letter word), and i do it just fine”.
In Life, there will be always ‘Wayang’ to watch, it exist everywhere, and you cannot escape from it.
You do not need to conform to the ‘wayang demands’ of those around you that form your Community, but you can at least influence the standard of the wayang; or you can totally withdraw into a nutshell and let it slowly absorb you.
There are those who ‘stopped the World, and got off’; and there are those who took on the World and made it a challenge to surmount the challenges of a Lifetime by BEING IN CONTROL of the challenges.
The entrepreneur is his OWN BOSS.
Taking a back seat and let the Boss decide on what work you should do, will end up with your OWN future being decided by your Boss - and contrary to your observation this is one prospect that I have made up my mind will never happen to me.
You should give more credit to entrepreneurs, who are great risk takers and DO NOT ‘jump on the entrepreneurial bandwagon like a bunch of clueless lemmings’ based on the Government say so.
You should give more credit to those successful and failed entrepreneurs as they provide a service to society by the amount of investment that they put up, which create the catalyst for economic activities in society, and is done at great risks to personal funds compared to what the Government Ministers and GLCs does with tax payers money.
I will agree with you that the ‘best thing an individual can do for the country is to be an INDIVIDUAL, but I will qualify it further by being a USEFUL one.
You can only isolate yourself so much from the community by being YOURSELF as an INDIVIDUAL, but you will still need to hook up to the world beyond yourself for the needs that you have.
Either you assert your strength to influence and change the environment around you, or it will change you as it overwhelms you. -
Originally posted by Atobe:
none intended, none taken... issues only become clear through vigourous debate... something which Sg has a lot to learn about... and i am blunt at times because i am trying to bring across a point forcefully, not because i'm getting personal so don't take it the wrong way.
CX, no offense intended but I like your style.Sure, we have those highly paid and capable civil servants and politicians to settle ALL our problems for us...
of course we're unhappy... of course we're unsatisfied... but i will also bet u money that there is no such thing as a perfect society. it is better to learn how to live and thrive through adversities rather than complain that adversities hinder your growth.What about the future for your children, or will you let them fight their own battles?
no kids, thank god.There will always be black and white...
i stay in the grey path and draw strengths from all those self-righteous forces that claims to know all the answers. no point indulging in polemics. there has to be room for developing every discussion. polemics limits the scope for discussion.We cannot always escape into a cocoon and insulate ourselves completely from negative or positive competition...
i'm not saying that u hide, i'm saying that u evolve rather than argue.Each individual owe as much to the Community, as he owes to himself for his own existence and his status within the Community ...
u pay taxes don't u? your parents pays taxes, don't they? and in uni, u pay fees, don't u? mind u, they're still not cheap even with supposed "gov't subsidies"... and i wonder why an arts undergrad pays the same fees as an engineering undergrad when he doesn't have access, or need to use cutting edge technology and expensive lab facilities to do his course???
i'm not gonna get into a chicken and egg argument here... i just believe that its not always helpful for an individual to think in terms of "confucian indebtedness"... u won't have entrepreneurial spirit, vigourous personalities, dissent and quite simply, diversity if u keep thinking in terms of "society" and "community". agree to disagree on this one i guess... humans are complex.
anyway, the measure of a man is not his academic degree or his financial success. it is simply the strength of his convictions and if he is destined for public office, one hopes, his morality.No one makes progress alone by himself, not even LKY...
it is un-historical to ask "what if" questions. an important man deserves his legacy... i'm only disgusted that he tried to write his own legacy and no one actually bothered to dispute his version.There was no attempt to deny you of your individuality - in preferring to STEP OUT of any contributory and public role that you can probably assume, based on your leading qualification in education and experience as a University Graduate.
and THAT is NOT what I want to do! your "assumption" is grotesque! what makes u think that "society" accepts pple just cos they're "smart" anyway? obviously haven't been reading the news of late...There are those who ‘stopped the World, and got off’; and there are those who took on the World and made it a challenge to surmount the challenges of a Lifetime by BEING IN CONTROL of the challenges.
thats interesting... have U done that? there's no point deliberating the theoretical advantages of being an entrepreneur. ultimately, its something u choose to do, when u feel u can or want.
this all sounds too idealistic... not that its a bad thing...You should give more credit to entrepreneurs...
i didn't discredit them. just that u probably haven't seen a lot of clueless "entrepreneurs" yet. what is an "entrepreneur" to u? if u look around these days, u'ld think its synonymous with "retail"...
everybody's trying to sell something, whether its sandwhiches, bubble tea, streetwear or health products. whether in the form of a shopfront or a multi-level marketing network, everyone's jumping on SOMETHING... and usually not after a lot consideration or understanding of what they're getting into, but calling themselves "entrepreneurs" anyway...
an "entrepreneur" is more than that... jumping on the bandwagon is actually a contradiction of the entrepreneurial spirit. but the gov't, in attempting to push a slogan, substituted substance for form, and what u have, is a lotta clueless "pseudo-entrepreneurs"... admirable spirit, i don't deny, but rather than admire their failures, don't u wish they would just do more homework so they could succeed instead?
there are risks and there are risks... success stories take CALCULATED risks, not reckless ones.I will agree with you that the ‘best thing an individual can do for the country is to be an INDIVIDUAL, but I will qualify it further by being a USEFUL one.
that is just downright paternalistic and elitist PAP crap. if society goes that way, u'll just end up advocating forced abortion of deformed foetuses, incarceration of the mentally disabled and a disgusting eugenicist regime.
u'll be going back to LKY's half-digested eugenicist views in the bad old days, when graduates are told to procreate and multiply, while none-graduate parents were told to get their tubes tied.
what is the measure of a "useful" individual? there is no meaningful benchmark. its best NOT to measure and just respect individuality what what it is willing or able to offer, no matter how little, how mediocre or how seemingly insignificant.
of course there's competition. and some will be more successful than others. and thats fine. does this make them more useful than the rest? hell no! go back to your secondary school science textbook. every organism has a niche. the insignificant earth worm u use as fish bait is as important to the enviornment as the birds and the butterflies.You can only isolate yourself so much from the community by being YOURSELF as an INDIVIDUAL, but you will still need to hook up to the world beyond yourself for the needs that you have.
its actually easier, more sensible and often, more profitable to change yourself... evolve...
Either you assert your strength to influence and change the environment around you, or it will change you as it overwhelms you.
think about it... low end manufacturing jobs are GONE for GOOD in Sg... u can't change that. but u can change yourself (re-train, re-adjust) and try to take on other jobs in other sectors... not an easy option, but do-able with great determination. -
CX, now you’ve got me confused – I think it’s this preference of yours to be in the gray area, but I’ll admit that I can’t work out the overall gist of what you’re saying.
For example, you say:it is better to learn how to live and thrive through adversities rather than complain that adversities hinder your growth.
but you also say:u can't control or change the superstructure, but u can choose HOW to live. that has always been my point. the hell with socially constructed notions and pap conceived "roles".
Taken within the separate posts, I can see what you’re saying, but having come in after a few days’ absence and read them all in one shot, your overall argument seems to fold over on itself. I agree that living through adversity will make you stronger if it doesn’t kill you, but doesn’t “the hell with socially constructed notions and pap conceived "roles"” imply that your choice is in fact to bypass, rather than live through, the adversity of the social conditions imposed in Singapore?
why the heck can't a person just be himself here?
As for your question “why the heck can't a person just be himself here?”, it is a sentiment I wholly agree with. It is also a complaint, and that is in conflict with your statement that complaint is a poorer option compared with working through adversity. My personal philosophy has always been “don’t offer a complaint without offering a solution”, and I propose that as a bridge between the “either/or” options that you outlined.
You also say that you are loathe of polemics, but at the same time, your posts include statements such as:that is just downright paternalistic and elitist PAP crap. if society goes that way, u'll just end up advocating forced abortion of deformed foetuses, incarceration of the mentally disabled and a disgusting eugenicist regime.
everybody's trying to sell something, whether its sandwhiches, bubble tea, streetwear or health products. whether in the form of a shopfront or a multi-level marketing network, everyone's jumping on SOMETHING... and usually not after a lot consideration or understanding of what they're getting into, but calling themselves "entrepreneurs” anyway...
so wat's your point? jumping on the entrepreneurial bandwagon like a bunch of clueless lemmings is your idea of one doing his part for society?
If anything, youÂ’re introducing more polemics than anyone else in this thread. Please donÂ’t take this as a form of accusation. You are obviously trying to communicate the stand that you are taking here, but even a post-structuralist argument requires parsimony if the point is to be communicated. I am trying my best to crystallise my understanding of your point here, but at the moment, it sounds like "turn on, tune in and drop out", and we all know how poorly that worked for Timothy Leary. -
Taken within the separate posts, I can see what you’re saying, but having come in after a few days’ absence and read them all in one shot, your overall argument seems to fold over on itself. I agree that living through adversity will make you stronger if it doesn’t kill you, but doesn’t “the hell with socially constructed notions and pap conceived "roles"” imply that your choice is in fact to bypass, rather than live through, the adversity of the social conditions imposed in Singapore?
can a man who lives in the real world meaningfully (or wilfully) expect to bypass adversities? of course not. what's so contradictory about that?As for your question “why the heck can't a person just be himself here?”, it is a sentiment I wholly agree with. It is also a complaint, and that is in conflict with your statement that complaint is a poorer option compared with working through adversity. My personal philosophy has always been “don’t offer a complaint without offering a solution”, and I propose that as a bridge between the “either/or” options that you outlined.
i'll be a little more liberal and suggest that u don't have to offer a solution. "freedom of speech" should be exactly that. a man should be free to bitch, complain and whine. that it solves nothing is besides the point. suggesting that every opinion has to be substantiated and intellectualised is just elitist.
might be a little contradictory if u take our earlier conversation into consideration, but actually, no. it reflects my consistent respect for ALL views.You also say that you are loathe of polemics, but at the same time, your posts include statements such as:
is that polemical or is that a fact? it DID happen. there's no guarantee that it won't happen again if we deceive ourselves into thinking that there is a meaningful measure of what constitutes a "useful man".
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that is just downright paternalistic and elitist PAP crap. if society goes that way, u'll just end up advocating forced abortion of deformed foetuses, incarceration of the mentally disabled and a disgusting eugenicist regime.
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anyway, i have not slammed the door shut to further discussion. u can alway dispute my point if u want.quote:
that's polemical? hmmm... didn't realise. i meant it as a personal observation really... ok... maybe not EVERYBODY (no pink tutus this time) ...
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everybody's trying to sell something, whether its sandwhiches, bubble tea, streetwear or health products. whether in the form of a shopfront or a multi-level marketing network, everyone's jumping on SOMETHING... and usually not after a lot consideration or understanding of what they're getting into, but calling themselves "entrepreneurs” anyway...
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ah... now that was deliberate 'cos i was hoping to provoke a response from Atobe. again, i've engaged in some rather objectionable polemics, but the intention was never to slam the door shut to any further discussion, which is my grouse with polemics in the first place... not the form, but the intent.
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so wat's your point? jumping on the entrepreneurial bandwagon like a bunch of clueless lemmings is your idea of one doing his part for society?
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and i'ld rather u accused me of a million objectionable crimes before u toss "post-structuralist" or "post-modernist" my way... i do not subscribe to that and i do find it objectionable.
anyway, if u're here hoping to find a "constructive" view, or a critisicm with a solution attached, u won't get it from me. but does that make my views inapplicable, invalid, or nonsensical?
i dunno... are u the judge of that? -
CX, you've just flip-flopped again.
First you say:it is better to learn how to live and thrive through adversities rather than complain that adversities hinder your growth.
And then you say:i'll be a little more liberal and suggest that u don't have to offer a solution. "freedom of speech" should be exactly that. a man should be free to !##&*, complain and whine. that it solves nothing is besides the point. suggesting that every opinion has to be substantiated and intellectualised is just elitist.
So what is it to be? Do you learn to live through adversities (by the way, I believe it is grammatically correct to say "adversity" ) rather than to complain, or should a person complain and whine? In the former case, if the person is to learn to live through adversity, then the opinion needs to be substantiated to be applied to the situation. I'm not the one asking for a constructive view here- you're the one who brought up "learning to live through adversities (sic)", leaving yourself in a position to be hoisted up on your own petard.
Ah, now we get to the question of exactly what is polemic. By definition, a polemic is "A controversial argument, especially one refuting or attacking a specific opinion or doctrine".
If anything, your responses to Atobe's and my posts have by definition been polemical, because you have been challenging our assertions. I have absolutely no problem with that, but that being the case, it just doesn't sit right for you to say "no point indulging in polemics" - you are simply contradicting yourself.
As for:that is just downright paternalistic and elitist PAP crap. if society goes that way, u'll just end up advocating forced abortion of deformed foetuses, incarceration of the mentally disabled and a disgusting eugenicist regime.
it is most certainly polemic, not fact. You are attempting to apply early 20th century Germany and America to Singapore in 2003. Is there enough in common between the situations to justify this application? If so, please substantiate it, because from this point, it looks like you are trying to pull a fast one on the unwary. Of all people, as a historian, you ought to know that comparing events and situations from two different eras and cultures is hogwash if there are inadequate grounds for equating the two.
Also, I didn't call you post-modernist - you did:or maybe that makes me an extreme post-modernist cos i believe that no one position is absolutely correct.
I honestly cannot conceive your line of argument as being a grey path - yes, you do offer the different black and white views, but it somewhat lacks the integration of the black and the white into grey. -
is there a point to this?
much as i appreciate a stimulating debate, i really don't see how u picking apart my sentances helps clarify anything at all.
so are u agreeing or disagreeing? or just plain nit-picking? its really a waste of my time share my thoughts with you cos u're just hearing what u choose to hear and picking apart my words apart in a way that makes this entire discusison pointless and incoherent.
it's been fun, but its just pointless to carry on this discussion any longer because your mind is closed. -
Don't go getting your knickers in a twist, CX. I'd dearly love to be able to either agree or disagree with you, but I cannot crystallise what the point is that I am to agree or disagree with.
I'm not trying to clarify anything I am saying here. Indeed, what I am asking for is clarification from you. Do I have to provide you with a guide to what I am saying? Fine. Here is the basic structure:
1) First you say one thing
2) Then you say something that contradicts it
3) So what are you saying, the first or the second thing?
Apply this template to what I have written in the last few posts, and you should be able to see the kind of clarification I am asking for. Once you have clarified your point, I will know what it is that you are saying and then I can agree or disagree with it. Before that, you are the one being incoherent, because you seem to be contradicting yourself. Unless I've missed something here - are you debating with yourself and are the rest of us crashing the party?
Right now, I could disagree with one thing you are saying, but you would just turn around and say "well, I said that too". Now THAT is a waste of time - if you are saying two contradicting things at the same time without integrating them, THAT is pointlessness. That's the kind of thing that gets you a 25% score in a uni assignment: 50% for only using half your word space effectively, with half taken off for you telling yourself that you are wrong through unintegrated contradictory points.
Bottom line is that the way your points contradict each other, you don't know if you're Arthur or Martha, and you're just drifting along without an overall standpoint. When someone asks you to clarify what you are saying, you choose to throw your toys out of the pram and say that other people have closed minds, rather than admitting that you have no point. However, if that makes you sleep better at night, knock yourself out.
You didn't make it past undergrad, did you? -
You didn't make it past undergrad, did you?
now now... i least expected this type of childish personal attack from you... totally unbecoming of a bright and (i presume...) esteemed academic like you... Ph.D you say? more like Permanent Head Damage...
i'm disgusted that a supposedly educated individual NEEDS and in fact, CRAVES for a simple conclusion when his qualifications and his experiences should have conditioned him to be able to accept ambiguities and complexities.
i try my best to share my toughts but because of your simple minded refusal to accept complexities and contradictions, you dismiss them and discard them.
now, i never asked u to agree with me. in fact, i prefer it if u disagreed and forwarded your own point. i am just sickened that u would indulge in semantics and personal attacks instead.
your arrogance disgusts me. -
Aw, CX, I didn't trip on your itty-bitty little ego, did I? Don't go letting that chip on your shoulder show too much.
Besides, you're the one going on about marching to your own beat, and damn what anyone else thinks, so why are you getting your buns in a knot now? Maybe it's time to practice what you preach.
Ambiguities and complexities I am trained to deal with. Your incoherence and inconsistency, however, are contrary to the expressive skills that a university education should have imparted to you. That is exactly why I asked if you had gotten past undergrad - your inability to build a proper structure indicates that you have not. If brushing your inadequacies off as a matter of semantics floats your boat, go fot it.
Besides, what's the point of me agreeing or disagreeing with you when you're already doing a thorough job all by yourself?
Yes, yes, we already know that you are trying to share your thoughts. Therein lies the problem - like I keep asking, could you clarify your thoughts instead of breaking out in a rash whenever someone asks for further expansion? I'm a psychologist, not a mind reader.
I simply asked for clarification of your standpoint 6 days ago. What any normal person would do when asked for clarification is - guess what? - clarify. Instead, you choose to go off on a paranoid tangent thinking that someone is questioning your assertions and going off into tripe about close-mindedness and other hogwash. I do highly recommend growing up - it will do you a world of good. -
Well, from what I see, there are 2 type of people who goes to university for its importance.Originally posted by ViRuSKiD:I have been wondering if going into a University is so important , people told me that if u go into a university u will be more sucessful and have a easier life after u get the diploma but is it true that going into a University is so important? I have ask a lot of people and they said that if they only have Poly Dip. , its hard to find a job.. and very "no face" but if u have University Deg. , you can find job easily and also when people ask about your level of education u can proudly say u are university graduate. So far i have seen other exception whereby its the poly student who is more sucessful then the University students.
First type goes for the education and their future. With a degree or post-grad degree, they see as their future lies there.
Second type goes to the university not for education but for sex. These type actually goes there for the pretty meimei there and chase every pretty skirts there.
That is how I see the importance of going to the university -
honestly it makes sense to work get a sense of what you really enjoy before studying a degree. Otherwise, you just end up with a useless piece of paper.
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To an extent, I'd agree with you, Azrael. However, another aspect to consider is the discovery of an interest in a subject along the way. In my case, I started university with an interest in media and ended up switching over to psychology, which I took as an elective, by the end of my first year. Conversely, I have known a number of people who, by following their interests, finished degrees in law and medicine, but ultimately did not graduate, or switched to other fields of work after graduating. Perhaps examining the drives behind one's interests has some importance here, since the drives are less subject to change. At one point, a few of us were planning to do a study on what made medical students choose their course, since anecdotal evidence indicated that many did it for status or family tradition - we were going to call the report "The Hypocritical Oath".
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Absence makes the heart grows fonder.
Life itself is a University.
Gedanken, looks as if you are having some great fun and into high gears as the year draws to an end.
May the pervasive festive holiday spirit surrounding us bring joy and peace to everyone, as we approach the end of a challenging year, and renew our strength and energy for the new one.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to One and All participating in this sgForums.