Headlines: Taiwan backs down over independence
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NOV 28, 2003, The Straits Times
Ermm, can anybody tell me why China insists on its "One China" policy?
Taiwan backs down over independence
Lawmakers vote against change to political status, flag and name, after threat of 'strong' response from China
By Lawrence Chung
STRAITS TIMES TAIWAN BUREAU
TAIPEI - Taiwanese legislators voting on a controversial referendum Bill yesterday played safe by rejecting a sensitive clause seeking to change the island's flag, official name and political status.
The compromise move is likely to stave off China's threat of a 'strong' response, made on Wednesday, if legislators were to pass 'unrestricted' referendum legislation.
Beijing has warned that it would not tolerate such a referendum law, which could lead to a public vote on Taiwan's independence and eventual split from the mainland.
China has vowed to attack Taiwan, which it regards as part of its territory, if the island formally declares independence.
The United States has also told Taiwan to cool it, by reiterating its 'one China' policy.
Taiwanese markets got the jitters yesterday, with stocks posting their biggest plunge in three weeks. The Taiwanese currency also fell to its lowest level - NT$34.22 (S$1.75) - against the US dollar since Aug 21.
However, the legislators yesterday also approved a proposal giving the President the power to hold an independence vote if China tries to use force to reunify the island with the mainland.
The passage of the so-called 'defensive referendum' clause was the only victory for the ruling Democratic Progressive Party (DPP), which advocates breaking away from the mainland.
But it sticks largely to a pledge made by President Chen Shui-bian in his inaugural speech in 2000 - that unless Beijing attacks Taiwan, he will not seek independence.
The day belonged to the opposition camp, which was led by the main opposition Kuomintang (KMT) and its ally, the People First Party (PFP).
In a show of unity, KMT and PFP legislators outnumbered their DPP colleagues and other pro-independence legislators to defeat the more controversial proposals such as those calling for a change in Taiwan's flag and official name, the Republic of China.
Many DPP legislators chose to abstain from the voting.
Political analyst Emile Sheng said: 'This shows that the DPP is at a loss under pressure from the United States and from the mainland's war warning.'
He said the opposition alliance had succeeded in forcing the DPP to show its hand.
'After this, how can the DPP convince hardline pro-independence supporters that it is on their side? At future campaign rallies, the DPP would not be able to use the referendum issue to attract the votes of this group,' he said.
The Taiwanese people are due to go to the polls next March to elect a new president.
Referendums have been turned into a major issue by Mr Chen, who is seeking a second term and has been pushing hard for a referendum law.
Only recently, he rattled Beijing when he said he planned to hold a referendum on a new Constitution in December 2006 and enact it by 2008.
Last night, there was no immediate reaction from China on the vote in Taiwan.
Instead, Chinese state media lambasted Mr Chen, calling him a troublemaker who is bringing disaster to the island.
According to Chinese cross-strait expert Zhang Tongxin, the dust has not yet settled on the issue of Mr Chen's push for independence.
'China has the determination and the ability to not let the situation develop to a stage where it would be out of control,' he said.
And he added that Beijing has only started to apply pressure.
I think it's quite... barbaric to apply such pressure on a country - if you don't submit we'll attack - in such a scenario. We're civilized people... no more wars please. If a war were to erupt just because Taiwan declares independence, it's quite insane. But of course for now I still dunno why China wants the reunification lar. If the two countries are doing well as two independent countries, then why need to reunify.....? -
this should answer some of the Question---->
NuclearHead, your acount of Taiwanese history is filled with half-truths and a selective reading of events.
.
Firstly, while it may be true that the original Taiwanese were aboriginal people from the Philipines, this is not a definition of nationhood, otherwise, Singapore should never be a country as the original inhabitants were "Orang Laut", and the US should be rightfully returned to the Native Indians.
Secondly, the later emigration you speak of probably accelerated during the Ming Dynasty. There was no democratic governance! These were mostly Ming officials and traders owing their allegiance to the Ming Emperor. Taiwan was adminsitered loosely by the Ming and than the Ching for the next 300+ yrs, until the Japanese annexed the island in 1892, after the Ching govt signed the Treaty of Shimonoseki.
Thirdly, you claimed that Taiwan was "returned" to China after WWII, yes, this is correct, minus the quotes, it was a rightful return, not against the wishes of the Taiwanese people.
Chiang Kai-shek's KMT retreated to Taiwanese after losing the civil war against the Communists, and establish the alternate nationalist govt in Taiwan, with the clear expressed aim to return to the Mainland. This was taught in all taiwanese schools for the next 40 yrs. This is not a separatist govt, it is in all aspects a re-unification govt!
Fourthly, you claim that the the taiwanese evolved their own language, culture, religion, etc. Excuse me! Does your knowledge of culture and history only span 50yrs! The local Taiwanese dialect is a variation (as all vernacular languages tend to be) of the Fujian dialect on the Mainland. Its culture is invariably Chinese, with strong Confucian roots, and its religion is based on Chinese taoism, with some local flavour. To claim that this is developed locally by the Taiwanese is like saying New Yorkers speak their own language as compared to Texans, and therefore are different languages.
Finally, you claim that the Communists are just being greedy in wanting Taiwan for its wealth. No doubt you owe this nugget of insight to pro-Taiwanese independence bluster and sound-bites. I'd advise you exercise your judgement before subscribing to hubris. The Chinese economy is set to grow into the largest economy in Asia within the next 10-20 yrs, with or without Taiwan. Foreign investment in manufacturing into China (Taiwanese companies included) outstrips the whole of Asia today, and is set to grow at an increasing rate for yrs to come. I am pretty sure about 1 thing, if Taiwan does not declare independence, China will not use military force, and the Taiwanese can continue to prosper. This makes a joke of your "China greed" theory. The eventual re-unification with Taiwan is the objective of China, be it in 50yrs or more. By that time, China is likely to be a economic powerhouse, Taiwan's economy in all likelihood will be dependent on China for a sizeable portion of her GDP. THINK!
No NuclearHead, Taiwan to the Mainland, is an issue of National dignity. China after the humiliation of Shimonoseki, the lost of HongKong and Macau at the turn of the century to foreign powers and opportunists, will not allow itself to be bullied into losing part of her sovereignty again.
There are of course strategic concerns for the Chinese, the US and the Japanese over Taiwan. I won't go into that.
I suggest you read up on why Chen Shui-bian and Lee Teng-Hui are so set on Taiwan's independence. The reasons are hardly altruistic.
Please be careful less you become a mouthpiece for those with less than honourable intentions
from another forum..a poster reply to another.. -
during the Qing dynesty or the Ming dynesty even the dynesty before them..to them Taiwan is "Yi Mai Xiang Lian"..it means "one pulse connecting together..i think so lah..english no good..
overall meaning is blood connection..n it still hold true now.. -
Erm okay that was a little too much for my pea-brain, but I think I've gotten an idea of it...Originally posted by NathanG5:during the Qing dynesty or the Ming dynesty even the dynesty before them..to them Taiwan is "Yi Mai Xiang Lian"..it means "one pulse connecting together..i think so lah..english no good..
overall meaning is blood connection..n it still hold true now..
So basically, when the Taiwan government formed back then, one of its main aims was to return the country to China from Japan's hands, by Chiang Kai Shek's KMT...?
Hmm national dignity... that's kind of related to the reputation the country will have right...?
Which will then in turn affect the country's economy....
Strategic concerns hmm... but to resort to MILITARY FORCE just because Taiwan now does not want the reunification.. I mean, I thought if the war between China and Taiwan really took place, it would be pretty... [I can't find the right word
] unnecessary.. It's like two kids fighting just because one of them refuses to give up a piece of cake, which neither kid will lose anything by remaining in the current situation, just that the kid without the cake will not be able to reap the benefits from the cake... -
actually taiwan unification would make their country much better off than their current state they are in.......if they really going into independence, less countries would recognise them ....economically( partly bcos of China)
-
but without the reunification they also have the potential to become like us mah?Originally posted by duotiga83:actually taiwan unification would make their country much better off than their current state they are in.......if they really going into independence, less countries would recognise them ....economically( partly bcos of China) -
no...KMT was force to retreat to Taiwan..Chiang Kai Shek while holding power in Taiwan..vow to take back China when they have the chance..but obviously he didnt..Originally posted by MooKu:Erm okay that was a little too much for my pea-brain, but I think I've gotten an idea of it...
So basically, when the Taiwan government formed back then, one of its main aims was to return the country to China from Japan's hands, by Chiang Kai Shek's KMT...?
Hmm national dignity... that's kind of related to the reputation the country will have right...? Which will then in turn affect the country's economy....
Strategic concerns hmm... but to resort to MILITARY FORCE just because Taiwan now does not want the reunification.. I mean, I thought if the war between China and Taiwan really took place, it would be pretty... [I can't find the right word] unnecessary.. It's like two kids fighting just because one of them refuses to give up a piece of cake, which neither kid will lose anything by remaining in the current situation, just that the kid without the cake will not be able to reap the benefits from the cake...
to China Taiwan is not a Country..its part of China..
to give up Taiwan is not allow..because it means they will lose Tibet too..as they want independence badly under The Dalai Lama..
so it all about national pride..
its wrong to say none will reap from the war..if there is one in future..China have nothing to lose..they are still a communist state..
China have eveything to gain..
in this moment..China have wayang the world that she is being force to attack Taiwan...she have no choice...it was lay down again n again..using the word force...
n most country in this world agree with its One China Policy..
oh forgot something..this crisis was never about reunification..
its about Chen Sui Bian wanting to hold a public referumdum(voting to see if the citizen want the changes) ..which will change the name of the "state"..n change some of the law..
this referumdum if agree by the people..ROC will be rename Republic OF Taiwan..or someother name..this is not allow by PRC..becos it mean that Taiwan is going for independence.. -
what do you mean like us? Singapore is not in good condition now..Originally posted by MooKu:but without the reunification they also have the potential to become like us mah?
Taiwan econnomy have gone from bad to worst..
the potential is not there... -
China will fall if it declare war,it will get the whole world involve in it.
WTO probably will kick out China,invester will pull out of China.
Economy will crash,UN probably will back Taiwan if war occur.
Taiwan is not like iraq,it might even possess more firepower
den mainland.A prolong war will empty China resources & it
will take a long time to heal & it's back to square one again...
Anyway China dun have the ability or capital to launch such a campaign.China only say best den it could do...
Further more History prove that China is not so good as it said
at warfare even though they wrote the book(Sun Art of War)
(maybe got 2 c who using it
)
As a matter of fact China never won one b4...it always loses in battle. -
whole world will involve?Originally posted by Zenogais:China will fall if it declare war,it will get the whole world involve in it.
WTO probably will kick out China,invester will pull out of China.
Economy will crash,UN probably will back Taiwan if war occur.
Taiwan is not like iraq,it might even possess more firepower
den mainland.A prolong war will empty China resources & it
will take a long time to heal & it's back to square one again...
Anyway China dun have the ability or capital to launch such a campaign.China only say best den it could do...
Further more History prove that China is not so good as it said
at warfare even though they wrote the book(Sun Art of War)
(maybe got 2 c who using it )
As a matter of fact China never won one b4...it always loses in battle.
if the whole world involve..the whole world gona be gone by the next tuesday..u forgot China have nuke...
lolz..where you get that info from?
which battle did China lost???
pls be specific..are you talking about modern China or the imperial one? which part of History?? u forgot who is behind Veitnam n Korean War?
the few battle China lost was during the Qing Dynesty..8 nation attack China...
post it in the military forum..they will laugh your ass out
do you know that US is trying to appease PRC??
WTO kicking China out? you forgot that they are communist..they dont give a damn..
if ROC fire power is that good..y Chen Sui Bian is backing down from the public referumdum?
Taiwan La Fayett will only be for show in the end.. -
if Taiwan pass the referendum...they are making a big gamble here ...China will watch their every move they make
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WAKE UP TAIWAN!
You will never be an independent state - politically, historically, culturally and most importantly---ECONOMICALLY!
Don't mess up otherwise we will blame you for causing our economy to slide again.
VOTE OUT DPP N CHEN SHUI BEN (or VERY STUPID) -
ermmmmmm. i don't know....? I thought the world's economy not doing very well generally now...Originally posted by NathanG5:what do you mean like us? Singapore is not in good condition now..
Taiwan econnomy have gone from bad to worst..
the potential is not there... -
i think some country are doing better then us..Malaysia is doing quite well now..i think...any economy expert here?Originally posted by MooKu:ermmmmmm. i don't know....? I thought the world's economy not doing very well generally now... -
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...........Originally posted by NathanG5:i think some country are doing better then us..Malaysia is doing quite well now..i think...any economy expert here? =p
hmmm i hope the new PM is better =P -
The facts that new generation of Taiwanese born citizen wishes independence while the older people with roots still in China wanted reunification. That's what the people on the ground wanted if you stay in Taiwan long enough.
China Airline always got misunderstood as belonging to China so former President Lee never fly CI but EVA. -
the fact is not always clear..i tot its the other way round?Originally posted by Kaohsiungans:The facts that new generation of Taiwanese born citizen wishes independence while the older people with roots still in China wanted reunification. That's what the people on the ground wanted if you stay in Taiwan long enough.
China Airline always got misunderstood as belonging to China so former President Lee never fly CI but EVA.
n whats izit gotta do with China Airline??
if you want independence just because of China Airline..i think its a joke.. -
what nathan mention is quite right. however there are other mitigating reasons for China's realist response.
China cannot allow Taiwan to declare independent as it wil be a huge loss of face and more importantly it wil prompt other secessionistic states to use Taiwan as a precedence to gain national self determination. Namely, Tibet and Xinjiang. China views these issues as a threat to their national sevurity as Taiwan's independence will undermine their constitution.
these are some reasons that i know of.
But in my personal opinion, it is still some way to go before it happens. -
lol ZenogaisOriginally posted by NathanG5:whole world will involve?
if the whole world involve..the whole world gona be gone by the next tuesday..u forgot China have nuke...
lolz..where you get that info from?
which battle did China lost???
pls be specific..are you talking about modern China or the imperial one? which part of History?? u forgot who is behind Veitnam n Korean War?
the few battle China lost was during the Qing Dynesty..8 nation attack China...
post it in the military forum..they will laugh your ass out
do you know that US is trying to appease PRC??
WTO kicking China out? you forgot that they are communist..they dont give a damn..
if ROC fire power is that good..y Chen Sui Bian is backing down from the public referumdum?
Taiwan La Fayett will only be for show in the end..
you really should read the papers more
like what NathanG5 said vietnam and korea was where china had made a large impact
other then that , in a recent joined exercise involving the US
a chinese sub was undetect throughout the entire ex
till it was all over
and only coz the chinese sub raise itself to let the US know they were there, if i didn't remember wrongly they even had a chinese flag with them when they came up
giving a shock to the commanders involve in the ex
as for the one china policy, its easy to understand if you have a understanding of chinese culture and history
what i dun understand is why the taiwanese must do the referdurm thing, when they already have independence only not in name
why get into trouble just for a name?