Singaporeans are fools!
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Dear thinkloud2004
I like to thank you for reading my posting and happy that you have responded with some interesting remarks.
Though your arguement that I should join a political party is correct but sad to say the political ground is still a pro-PAP one. That's the reason why the topic here is "Singaporeans are fools"! So the subject is not about me but about how we as Singaporeans should change to be smarter and not continue to be foolish. Yes I may join political party or even form my own party one day but for now it is to change the mindset of people first.
I take offense that you suggest me to the leave the country. If ever I want to leave this country, I would not have bothered even raising such a controversial topic. As such I disagree that all talk and no action brings me nowhere. Singapore and even PAP profess that we are a democracy with freedom to speak. Your implied notion to ask me to shut up is an insult to yourself. Surely you have decided to suffer and there again fits the bill of this topic of " Singaporeans are fools".
Therefore, thinkloud2004, as your name implied that you are able to think loudly, stop your suffering and you may like to start joining a political party. You seem pro-PAP and maybe you can line up all the way to the back to join them.
Thank you again and I welcome further challenges.
[/b][/quote]
Quote :
<< That's the reason why the topic here is "Singaporeans are fools"! So the subject is not about me but about how we as Singaporeans should change to be smarter and not continue to be foolish.>>
<>
My reply :
Who gave you the right to conclude that Singaporeans are fools?
You owe all Singaporeans an apology by making such a blatant statement. By the same token, can I call you names? Singaporeans will be fools indeed if they they don't respond to your baseless allegation and thats why I am writing.
Just because you have a personal grudge or have some negative opinions about our Government does not give you any justification to make such a sweeping statement. I am a Singaporean and I certainly am not a fool. There are many other things in life besides politicis, or whatever your perception of politics is. I have a good job, a happy family, a safe place to live in and a forseeable stable future for my children - am I a fool to be enjoying all these? Put me in any other country and would I be better off ? Thats why I am suggesting, if you think there is a better place, go try it and then tell us the difference. After all anything good or bad, preferred or otherwise; is but a matter of comparison. Nothing is absolute. Nowhere is perfect. Of course if you choose to ignore all the positive aspects and drill deep into the negative, then I think there is no place in this world suitable for you. Name me a place where you consider good and I can name you at least 10 bad things about it.
It is always easy to throw stones on the sideline. While watching a soccer match with a friend, each time after a player missed a shot this friend of mine would say, "he should use his left foot", "he should pass to so-and-so" or "he should turn around and swing" or whatever.......My reply to him each time was, "go to the field and play and let me comment on you".
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to think loud. -
Asking a fellow citizen to leave a country is what I would call a knee-jerk reaction.
Americans who criticized the Iraq war have met with the same kind of knee-jerk reaction.
It is counter-productive and only exposes your own shallowness of thought if you do that.
However, calling somebody a fool, or even calling the entire population of a country fools, is somewhat sweeping and cannot be possibly correct.
Overall my opinion is that, like citizens of many so-called "developed" countries, citizens of this country simply have not woken up to certain realities in this world.
There is an apt comparison that can be made between Singaporeans, Americans, British and citizens of many such countries to the overall population as described in the Matrix trilogy.
They have not woken up, and by and large, most of them might choose not to wake up, even if given such a choice.
It is inaccurate to describe them as "fools". I believe the term more commonly applied is "sheeple" - a combination of the words "sheep" and "people". -
Congratulations and good for you. You are already better off than the 111,100 citizens who are jobless.Originally posted by thinkloud2004:I have a good job, a happy family, a safe place to live in and a forseeable stable future for my children - am I a fool to be enjoying all these?
I too, am pretty happy with my current situation, but I am worried about the future situation.
May I also suggest looking beneath the shimmering surface of our society? Perhaps you may see what some of us have seen.
I am not asking for you to have a point of view leading to a possible course of action. Having a better context will lead to that. -
Dear Relevation,
http://www.youngpap.org.sg/phpbb/index.php
You can try to express your opinion in the above mentioned forums.
You will definitely get a "overwhelming" response
. -
but why u all nv think what the gov has been doing for us...instead of concentrating on what the gov hasn't been doing, and keep critisizing..without them i think we'd not have the things we have now...
u think any of the oppositions can do that? seriously i think no. i think they're too small, maybe pap was already too "big" to begin with, but that's something out of our control...
all the "bad" things highlighted like pay cuts...rise in prices etc.., i guess its all give-and-take la, we're already living comfortably sitting down in front and typing all this. what more can one expect...hiding in restaurants like in iraq because of bomb attacks?
maybe i'm too young to understand all this, and what i type may seem stupid but this is what i feel -
I like to quote Machiavelli:
"it should be noted, too in the affairs of the decemviri how easily men are corrupted and in nature become transformed, how ever good they maybe and however well taught" (Nichcolo Machiavelli, The discourses p. 217)
It is therefore important to have a dual party political to prevent the above from happening. -
Originally posted by relevation:
Dear All,
I have found that SIngaporeans are fools from various episodes.
hi smart guyLet me elaborate with the following:
1) We allow an absolute party to rule us for 44 years without any opposition to ensure an alternative government
at least we get to allow that haveyou notice some countries dun get that
if you're not happy just dun vote for them
unless you're afraid to get "marked"2) We readily agree to take unfavorable measures like CPF cuts, higher cost of payments for HDB, and any increment of fees by our government without question or protest.
why dun you try to start a protest and see what happens3) We fight among ourselves - trying to gain favors from the PAP echelon.
never done that before4) We laugh and cheer when oppposition leaders fail.
never done this before alsoNow the supporting details:
1) I think other than Japan's LDP and Taiwan's KMT, Singapore is the only state that gives up oppositional power willingly. What makes us so sure after LKY's demise, Singapore is as safe and as uncorrupt? Who will guarantee us that the Lee Family will continue to be honest and will continue to give us the prosperity that was delivered for the last 44 years?
you talked like we're going to vote for LHL after his dad kicks the bucket
i comfirm liao if pap put him i vote for opo though i think they just as f@#K upNext, we are a full fledge democracy with full democratic institutions with 1 man 1 vote and we willingly surcum ourselves to unfavourable policies to make us poor and less rich. We willingly surcome under a democratic dictatorship where there is no force or coersion like Taiwan who was under martial law. Why are we so willing to listen to the PAP and refuse to give oppositional forces a chance to develop. Very much we laugh at them and seem to want them to fall from grace.
see aboveDo remember they are our hope if PAP ever fails us. They are also working for our national interest. Without them what is the difference between Singapore and Communist China?? Just so much similarities- ONE PARTY STATE and RULE OF MAN. LKY>GCT>LHL- all MAN. So we are fools- all of us whether smart or stupid, including me because I am not there to prevent this. But whether me or any oppositional forces are useless without the support of the people and worse when Singaporeans are naive and foolish. Look at how happy we are to see JBJ, CHIAM SEE TONG, Chee Soon Juan and STeve Chia fall from grace.
i dunno abt JBJ and CHIAM SEE TONG
but i think Chee Soon Juan and STeve Chia are idiots who can't take care of themselves
did Chee not know he can get sued when he slandered people
did he not see what happened to those before him?
if he knew , why was he still so stupid to speak without proof
and chia is another idiot , he's a public figure and yet he can't control his private life while knowing full well what would happen to him if something like that happened
even a 16 yr old knows how to empty the recyce bin when he has deleted the porn he was watching2) Whay are we so happy to take pay cuts. Let me define happy. Happy is a state of happiness to the extend of having become contented with the situation or relent with the situation without any action taken to prevent it. That's happy. CPF cuts, increase fees during our worst times, SIA pliots being bullied by the government and LKY, ERP and COE to increase our running cost, artificially inflated property prices to satisfy developers like Far East and CDL. All these to make SIngaporeans POOR so that we have no choice to to squeeze ourselves here. Worst of all PAP always justify their pay increment to keep good man. Good man are good because they are willing not when they are not willing and have to be seduced. When good man refused to expose evil man, that 's when a nation will ultimately fail. We are all so foolish!
who told you we're happy with pay cuts?
with all the ranting here why do you still think we're happy?3) You won't believe it, so many people are happy that Steve Chia falls. Do we know that for every oppoistional force that fails, it makes Singapore worse off. How are we so sure that PAP is really doing a great job. They are good in cosmestics- upgrades, $ in CPF etc, how are we sure that they are really that good. Who in us audit them? Where are their statements? Where are they financial and performance records? If they are so clean, why are they not publishing the performance of GIC and Temasek holdings? Where are our money and how are they performing? Isn't Singapore Tech, Singtel, SPH, SIA all public companies that belong to Singaporeans? Why are we not getting any dividents from these companies. What have they done to make us better in our livelihood? Are we not fools? We have lost people are who there to help us and make our lives better. PAP had given us a standard life but never a comfortable one! They always make our lives difficult.
why dun you try to find out?
instead of ranting here?
why don't you give use the proof we need to kick them out?4) Singapore is the only country where political awareness is the lowest. Without oppositional forces, tehre is no way we can ever ensure that our interest are secured. We will only have the PAP's views and actions. We lost the chance to explore issues and ensure that our ineterest is secured. How are we so sure that the decisions the PAP make is not Pro-PAP and their members or pro-a certain group of people? So stop cheering and being so happy when our opposition leaders fail and fall, because we all will lose out. Let us see things beyond what is show to us by the PAP and learn to see things in our own way. Lets be open minded and accept diversity. Its only when there is choice that we have the power. For now we are all just FOOLS , all to willing and happy to be fooled.
Relevation.
cant help it if the opo cant make the grade
when they feel they cant fight against the pap
all they do is try to get sued for slander
and i'm not cheering when the opposition leaders fell
they deserved it and its nothing to cheer abt
and if we're really fools we won't know even if we're fooled
and i get the feeling part of the reason you posted this is coz you think its unfair to pay so much for a maid -
Who gave you the right to conclude that Singaporeans are fools?
>>>>Based on those points I have raised. You may like to re-read my first posting.
Just because you have a personal grudge or have some negative opinions about our Government does not give you any justification to make such a sweeping statement.
>>>> Disagree, I have no personal grudge against PAP government. I am only concern about our future, how relevant are we in a competitive world where globalisation and freedom of the minds and ideas are the key ingredients to our survival. At the moment because of our foolishness and blind obedience- we have lost out alternatives views as well as other better ways of managing our country. We do not have strong political institutions to ensure that should PAP fail us, we have an alternative. We have no one to challenge the government by power of VETO in the parliament to prevent unfavorable policies (especially long term ones) from being implemented. We have no one to check if our investments are in order. We have no one able to get the Ministers to disclose their wealth and assets. We have no way of knowing how commited our new MPs are- given that they won so easily under the GRC system. All these are serious important matters. My families, your families and our Singaporean's families's lives are NOW fully dictated by PAP. If we are not sure if these men and women are the Best of the BEST, if you are not worried, I am.
Ask yourself why there is so few private sector talents in Parliament? How is public sector ministers who have so easily climb the ivory tower, able to to appreciate the lives of private sector people who are always living in fear of losing their jobs when investors leave SIngapore. How are they able to appreciate how their policy affects the poor and the middle income group?
Have you NOT forgotten how our government encourage businesses to move to Batam, Bintan and Johore under the triangle trade agreement. Was that a good policy? Sometime I wonder if this policy in the mid-1990s resulted in our lost of our manufacturing base today.
Without a strong manufacturing base, why would any services such as suppliers and customers want to come to Singapore to invest? Its just so child play and naive to think that investors will make Singapore the HQ. So what if they make Singapore the HQ of their operation- its only 1 HQ versus so many other companies that will come in because of this manufacturer. If I am a businessman I will station my HQ in Hong Kong or Shanghai or even Jakarta because its so much easier to manage my business.
Was that seriuosly wrong policy, challenged? Today no one in PAP talks about it anymore. Ever wonder why?
I am a Singaporean and I certainly am not a fool.
>>>> I am glad that you think you are not.
There are many other things in life besides politicis, or whatever your perception of politics is.
>>>>>>Sorry, in Singapore today the power of PAP is close to unlimited. If you look around you, whether community centre, People's Association, bureaucracy, business groups and mindset of people. There is only the omni-presence of PAP. How different are we from Communist China? In order to have a better life, political change is necessary. We cannot afford to have blatant decisions make that affects our lives without proper scrutiny of policy making.
Don't you agree that our current economic problems of declining investors is a result of PAP's dracognian policies? If you don't believe how bad our economy now- go to orchard road Ngee Ann city Tower A and check the offices- 50% unoccupied, Republic Plaza - 30% unoccupied and many more buildings are close to 50% unoccupied. The occupancy rate of our prime building is so much lower than those day when our economy was healthy. I am really worried for those who bought private properties and think that they can still rent out to investors and expats.
I have a good job, a happy family, a safe place to live in and a forseeable stable future for my children - am I a fool to be enjoying all these?
>>>>> I am glad you have a great life today. Are you confident to say that this will last forever? You are surely not a fool to enjoy but potentially is one to just place all your hope on one party rule without considering and allowing alternative form of government from emerging. Materialism is a very myopic view of our future.
At the rate China, India and Malaysia is developing, you and I may lose our jobs in the next 5- 10 years with the current PAP economic policy. HDB, PSA and other government agency's retrenchments in the last 1 year is showing us that. Even once upon a time Iron rice bowl jobs have been broken, what more to say about our job security?
Put me in any other country and would I be better off ?
>>>>> You are going OUT of point. We are NOT talking about other country. I am talking about how we can continue to have a sustained comfortable life. We can never compare ourselves with others. Geographically, poilitcally, econolically and even socially. before we think that we are better than others, think how we can be better than what we are today.
Thats why I am suggesting, if you think there is a better place, go try it and then tell us the difference.
>>>>>>Thank you for your suggestion - Its NOT ACCEPTABLE!! Don't try to trap me. I am not going to that area. I am a Singaporean - flesh and blood. I want to have a better and stronger Singapore NOT just happy that we are better than others BUT better than what we are today!
After all anything good or bad, preferred or otherwise; is but a matter of comparison.
>>>>>>> Disagree. NOT comparing with others because we can never compare different fruits. Even apples are different from where they come from. SO there is NO comparison!
Nothing is absolute. Nowhere is perfect.
>>>>>> You have just contradicted yourself: Wonder who says this- ("I have a good job, a happy family, a safe place to live in and a forseeable stable future for my children - am I a fool to be enjoying all these?")
Of course if you choose to ignore all the positive aspects and drill deep into the negative, then I think there is no place in this world suitable for you.
>>>>> Negative. Let me NOT repeat myself. I am NOT saying Singapore is no good. I must be crazy to say that. I am saying that we are foolish to ignore alteratives and that we put ourselves at risk. We allow PAP government to have a very easy time without a strong challenge. We allowed them to place obstacles in the last 44 years to prevent this strong challenge so much so they are now everywhere. That's why we are fools!
Name me a place where you consider good and I can name you at least 10 bad things about it.
>>>>>> You missed the point.
It is always easy to throw stones on the sideline. While watching a soccer match with a friend, each time after a player missed a shot this friend of mine would say, "he should use his left foot", "he should pass to so-and-so" or "he should turn around and swing" or whatever.......My reply to him each time was, "go to the field and play and let me comment on you".
>>>>>>> Thank you - when the time is right. For now you are not the only one needs convincing. There are close to 3 million of people like you (taking the 70% votes won by PAP). It wil take some time to do the convincing.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to think loud.
>>>>>>> I am honoured.
[/b][/quote] -
Dear Thinkloud2004,
Thank you for giving me this opportunity to clarify my pointers. The following are my point-by point refutation of what you have rasied.
Who gave you the right to conclude that Singaporeans are fools?
>>>>Based on those points I have raised. You may like to re-read my first posting.
Just because you have a personal grudge or have some negative opinions about our Government does not give you any justification to make such a sweeping statement.
>>>> Disagree, I have no personal grudge against PAP government. I am only concern about our future, how relevant are we in a competitive world where globalisation and freedom of the minds and ideas are the key ingredients to our survival. At the moment because of our foolishness and blind obedience- we have lost out alternatives views as well as other better ways of managing our country. We do not have strong political institutions to ensure that should PAP fail us, we have an alternative. We have no one to challenge the government by power of VETO in the parliament to prevent unfavorable policies (especially long term ones) from being implemented. We have no one to check if our investments are in order. We have no one able to get the Ministers to disclose their wealth and assets. We have no way of knowing how commited our new MPs are- given that they won so easily under the GRC system. All these are serious important matters. My families, your families and our Singaporean's families's lives are NOW fully dictated by PAP. If we are not sure if these men and women are the Best of the BEST, if you are not worried, I am.
Ask yourself why there is so few private sector talents in Parliament? How is public sector ministers who have so easily climb the ivory tower, able to to appreciate the lives of private sector people who are always living in fear of losing their jobs when investors leave SIngapore. How are they able to appreciate how their policy affects the poor and the middle income group?
Have you NOT forgotten how our government encourage businesses to move to Batam, Bintan and Johore under the triangle trade agreement. Was that a good policy? Sometime I wonder if this policy in the mid-1990s resulted in our lost of our manufacturing base today.
Without a strong manufacturing base, why would any services such as suppliers and customers want to come to Singapore to invest? Its just so child play and naive to think that investors will make Singapore the HQ. So what if they make Singapore the HQ of their operation- its only 1 HQ versus so many other companies that will come in because of this manufacturer. If I am a businessman I will station my HQ in Hong Kong or Shanghai or even Jakarta because its so much easier to manage my business.
Was that seriuosly wrong policy, challenged? Today no one in PAP talks about it anymore. Ever wonder why?
I am a Singaporean and I certainly am not a fool.
>>>> I am glad that you think you are not.
There are many other things in life besides politicis, or whatever your perception of politics is.
>>>>>>Sorry, in Singapore today the power of PAP is close to unlimited. If you look around you, whether community centre, People's Association, bureaucracy, business groups and mindset of people. There is only the omni-presence of PAP. How different are we from Communist China? In order to have a better life, political change is necessary. We cannot afford to have blatant decisions make that affects our lives without proper scrutiny of policy making.
Don't you agree that our current economic problems of declining investors is a result of PAP's dracognian policies? If you don't believe how bad our economy now- go to orchard road Ngee Ann city Tower A and check the offices- 50% unoccupied, Republic Plaza - 30% unoccupied and many more buildings are close to 50% unoccupied. The occupancy rate of our prime building is so much lower than those day when our economy was healthy. I am really worried for those who bought private properties and think that they can still rent out to investors and expats.
I have a good job, a happy family, a safe place to live in and a forseeable stable future for my children - am I a fool to be enjoying all these?
>>>>> I am glad you have a great life today. Are you confident to say that this will last forever? You are surely not a fool to enjoy but potentially is one to just place all your hope on one party rule without considering and allowing alternative form of government from emerging. Materialism is a very myopic view of our future.
At the rate China, India and Malaysia is developing, you and I may lose our jobs in the next 5- 10 years with the current PAP economic policy. HDB, PSA and other government agency's retrenchments in the last 1 year is showing us that. Even once upon a time Iron rice bowl jobs have been broken, what more to say about our job security?
Put me in any other country and would I be better off ?
>>>>> You are going OUT of point. We are NOT talking about other country. I am talking about how we can continue to have a sustained comfortable life. We can never compare ourselves with others. Geographically, poilitcally, econolically and even socially. before we think that we are better than others, think how we can be better than what we are today.
Thats why I am suggesting, if you think there is a better place, go try it and then tell us the difference.
>>>>>>Thank you for your suggestion - Its NOT ACCEPTABLE!! Don't try to trap me. I am not going to that area. I am a Singaporean - flesh and blood. I want to have a better and stronger Singapore NOT just happy that we are better than others BUT better than what we are today!
After all anything good or bad, preferred or otherwise; is but a matter of comparison.
>>>>>>> Disagree. NOT comparing with others because we can never compare different fruits. Even apples are different from where they come from. SO there is NO comparison!
Nothing is absolute. Nowhere is perfect.
>>>>>> You have just contradicted yourself: Wonder who says this- ("I have a good job, a happy family, a safe place to live in and a forseeable stable future for my children - am I a fool to be enjoying all these?")
Of course if you choose to ignore all the positive aspects and drill deep into the negative, then I think there is no place in this world suitable for you.
>>>>> Negative. Let me NOT repeat myself. I am NOT saying Singapore is no good. I must be crazy to say that. I am saying that we are foolish to ignore alteratives and that we put ourselves at risk. We allow PAP government to have a very easy time without a strong challenge. We allowed them to place obstacles in the last 44 years to prevent this strong challenge so much so they are now everywhere. That's why we are fools!
Name me a place where you consider good and I can name you at least 10 bad things about it.
>>>>>> You missed the point.
It is always easy to throw stones on the sideline. While watching a soccer match with a friend, each time after a player missed a shot this friend of mine would say, "he should use his left foot", "he should pass to so-and-so" or "he should turn around and swing" or whatever.......My reply to him each time was, "go to the field and play and let me comment on you".
>>>>>>> Thank you - when the time is right. For now you are not the only one needs convincing. There are close to 3 million of people like you (taking the 70% votes won by PAP). It wil take some time to do the convincing.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to think loud.
>>>>>>> I am honoured. -
Dear Medicated Oil,Originally posted by Medicated Oil:Dear Relevation,
http://www.youngpap.org.sg/phpbb/index.php
You can try to express your opinion in the above mentioned forums.
You will definitely get a "overwhelming" response .
Thanks for your suggestion. I will take note. -
Dear All,
found this article from the posting "Should Singapore put all its eggs in an unguarded basket?"
Is this another testimony?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rising surplus - Who should control?
US$100b asset topped by another US$23b this year, an unmatched gain which raises tough questions. Richard Hubbard. Reuters
Dec 7, 2003
The tiny island nation of Singapore is set to end 2003 with a weak economy and high unemployment but a very fat bank balance.
Singapore's reserves, already estimated to exceed US$100 billion in a nation of just over 3.3 million citizens, are set for a top up from a record current account surplus the country has in its balance of payments with the rest of the world.
But as the reserves mountain grows analysts are questioning whether the current system of control by a large and secretive institution, the Government of Singapore Investment Corp (GIC), is in the best interests of the country.
"It is highly risky for Singapore to place virtually its entire reserves under the management of a single entity, particularly one marked by low transparency," said Manu Bhaskaran, a partner in Centennial Group Inc.
Owing to the government's dominance in the city-state's economy, a large slice of the current account surplus - the gain from exporting more goods and services than are imported plus net investment income - is likely to end up in the coffers of either the central bank or the GIC.
The surplus for the first three quarters of 2003 stood at S$35.1 billion (US$20.36 billion) - the highest ever recorded, according to the Department of Statistics.
A strong final quarter will easily push it above S$40 billion for the whole year, a level never seen before.
"It's a crisis of plenty," according to P.K. Basu, managing director of Robust Economic Analysis in Singapore.
Basu said the surplus, running at around 30 percent of gross domestic product, was a result of a reluctance by the government to increase spending as the economy slowed down.
When a government increases spending, people generally have more money to buy imported goods and the current account surplus would normally shrink.
Analysts said the surplus also partly reflected Singapore's weaker currency after the central bank eased monetary policy mid-year, which would have made imports more expensive.
With the manufacturing and service sectors hit by the Iraq War and the deadly SARS outbreak, Singapore's GDP is expected to be only one percent higher this year than in 2002, when it showed 2.2 percent growth.
Investments abroad
A current account surplus must be invested in foreign assets, such as foreign exchange, stocks, bonds, and real estate overseas.
In Singapore some of this will be done by private sector firms, but the bulk would be handled by the GIC or the central bank.
The GIC manages funds that come from the government's accumulated budget surpluses, including the profit of investment agency Temasek Holdings, and some of the assets of the central bank, the Monetary Authority of Singapore.
Chaired by modern Singapore's founder and current senior minister, Lee Kuan Yew, the GIC said last year it had around US$100 billion in assets, but does not make public its accounts.
The central bank, chaired by Lee Kuan Yew's son Lee Hsien Loong, currently has official foreign reserves of over $90 billion, mainly held in foreign exchange and gold.
Temasek, whose executive director is married to Lee Hsien Loong, earns income from stakes worth more than $45 billion in about 40 major Singapore companies.
The agency's stable of companies includes well known names such as Singapore Telecom, Singapore Airlines and DBS Bank, and the port operator PSA Corp.
The GIC invests its funds in everything from outright purchases of hotels and hospitals in Australia to heavy investments in US equities and bonds.
Temasek uses its money principally to build local companies, but recently has begun making direct investment abroad as well, including buying stakes in two large Indonesian banks.
Some analysts argue that, after years in which this government-led investment has turned Singapore into a highly developed country, it may be time for the state to step back.
"What needs to be done is that the government has to decide whether to pass the investment decision back to the people," said Joseph Tan, an economist at Standard Chartered Bank.
"The wealth in a sense doesn't belong to the government."
Basu of Robust Economics believes the concentration of the management of the country's wealth has also contributed to the country's lack of entrepreneurship.
Centennial Group's Bhaskaran said the GIC was most in need of reform and suggested a statutory board be set up to oversee its management, and that the group's various fund management divisions be broken up and sold off.
"For a small country, do we want to put all our savings in one fund management house?" he said. ($1=1.724 Singapore Dollar)
Reuters -
Dear All,
I love my country- Singapore and surely hope that all of us, Singaporeans will wake up. All of us should be concern for our future and our children's future.
We need to be better than what we are today and stop thinking and being satisfied with what we have and how good we are vis-a-vis others.
In case any of you feel insulted or misunderstood my intentions by the title of this posting, please forgive me.
The title is meant to instil the sense of urgency, it is meant to wake all of us up.
Please take it in stride as in the posting I have also indicate that I am also a fool in my inaction at the moment.
Take care and I wish all Singaporeans well and may we one day be a wise, great and highly respected nation. -
In Italics posted by relevation:
My response follows
I love my country- Singapore and surely hope that all of us, Singaporeans will wake up. All of us should be concern for our future and our children's future.
> Obviously you have changed your tune somewhat. Who is not concerned for his future and that of his family? It is exactly because of this that I find that Singapore is a better place to bring up my children. Don't tell me about those "billion dollar scandals" or "family indulgence stuff". I dont want to pretend I understand any of those...and does it matter. For my info, please put it in clear layman terms with all the facts and figures. I may be convinced but then - does it matter?
We need to be better than what we are today and stop thinking and being satisfied with what we have and how good we are vis-a-vis others.
> Pray tell me how?
In case any of you feel insulted or misunderstood my intentions by the title of this posting, please forgive me.
> I accept your apology. Be careful when you put your thoughts into writing. Choice of words is important.
The title is meant to instil the sense of urgency, it is meant to wake all of us up.
> Good try if your intention is to call out names hoping to make your audience feel ashamed or guilty so that they will rally behind you. But this may backfire. In less developed countries, budding politicians use treats, threats and shaming tactics to win votes. Don't try it here.
Please take it in stride as in the posting I have also indicate that I am also a fool in my inaction at the moment.
Take care and I wish all Singaporeans well and may we one day be a wise, great and highly respected nation.
> Same to you. Until the day comes, let us live and let live. The last I want to see in this country is unrest, protests and riots. Look at the countries that resort to all these --- are they any better off after many lives are sacrificed?
Finally, everybody is entitled to his or her opinion. Freedom of speech invites equally freedom of reply. Happy new year. -
relevationOriginally posted by thinkloud2004:In Italics posted by relevation:
My response follows
I love my country- Singapore and surely hope that all of us, Singaporeans will wake up. All of us should be concern for our future and our children's future.
> Obviously you have changed your tune somewhat. Who is not concerned for his future and that of his family? It is exactly because of this that I find that Singapore is a better place to bring up my children. Don't tell me about those "billion dollar scandals" or "family indulgence stuff". I dont want to pretend I understand any of those...and does it matter. For my info, please put it in clear layman terms with all the facts and figures. I may be convinced but then - does it matter?
We need to be better than what we are today and stop thinking and being satisfied with what we have and how good we are vis-a-vis others.
> Pray tell me how?
In case any of you feel insulted or misunderstood my intentions by the title of this posting, please forgive me.
> I accept your apology. Be careful when you put your thoughts into writing. Choice of words is important.
The title is meant to instil the sense of urgency, it is meant to wake all of us up.
> Good try if your intention is to call out names hoping to make your audience feel ashamed or guilty so that they will rally behind you. But this may backfire. In less developed countries, budding politicians use treats, threats and shaming tactics to win votes. Don't try it here.
Please take it in stride as in the posting I have also indicate that I am also a fool in my inaction at the moment.
Take care and I wish all Singaporeans well and may we one day be a wise, great and highly respected nation.
> Same to you. Until the day comes, let us live and let live. The last I want to see in this country is unrest, protests and riots. Look at the countries that resort to all these --- are they any better off after many lives are sacrificed?
Finally, everybody is entitled to his or her opinion. Freedom of speech invites equally freedom of reply. Happy new year.
pls quote or highlight what you want to qoute or at least put it in Italics
i'm killing my brain cells by reading ur posts -
If we are to be concerned with OUR FUTURE, and also that for the GENERATIONS AFTER US, we should in the next election vote for a stronger OPPOSITION in Parliament - especially in all contested areas, since the Ruling Party would already have won the election in a Walk-Over in UNCONTESTED constituencies.Originally posted by thinkloud2004:In Italics posted by relevation:
My response follows
I love my country- Singapore and surely hope that all of us, Singaporeans will wake up. All of us should be concern for our future and our children's future.
> Obviously you have changed your tune somewhat. Who is not concerned for his future and that of his family? It is exactly because of this that I find that Singapore is a better place to bring up my children. Don't tell me about those "billion dollar scandals" or "family indulgence stuff". I dont want to pretend I understand any of those...and does it matter. For my info, please put it in clear layman terms with all the facts and figures. I may be convinced but then - does it matter?
Not so much as "BILLION DOLLAR SCANDALS" - but when a few MILLION DOLLAR SCANDALS add up together, it will amount to quite a few Billion Dollar Scandals.
The spectacular failed loss of US$500Million investment in the ailing MICROPOLIS Hard Disk Manufacturing Facility by a new member of the Premier Family, who did not listen to the experienced advise of her predecessor.
The reknown investment in Suzhou that bled us of more then US$300Million of our Reserves.
The unknown additional losses of US$400Million that surfaced in the takeover of the Dusatthani Bank, after the initial loss of US$500Million Plus was taken into account.
The high premium that was paid to take over a private Hongkong Bank by DBS Bank, only to have the various branches pared down in size.
The failed investment in Virgin Airlines; failed investments in Silicon Valley when the tech-bubble burst; payment above market price for a stake in weak Telecommunication Companies in Indonesia, India, Belgium and Australia; and the premium priced purchase of reknown landmark buildings in the various major cities in London, Paris, New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Beijing, Shanghai, Hongkong, Tokyo, Sydney.
These are some of the known and leaked information that have been briefly mentioned in past publications, but have never been acknowledged by the Singapore Government, GIC or Temasek.
All of these investments became failures, while the buildings remained 'White Elephants' waiting for the rise in the property markets.
Should we not be concerned that so much of our Singapore NATIONAL RESERVES or NATIONAL SAVINGS are invested, and when NO public accounting is ever made even to the Elected President or to Parliament ?
We should be responsible for OUR FUTURE, and that of the FUTURE OF OUR SUCCEEDING GENERATIONS, by ensuring that a stable political process exist in Singapore.continuing post by thinkloud2004:We need to be better than what we are today and stop thinking and being satisfied with what we have and how good we are vis-a-vis others.
> Pray tell me how?
There is too much reliance on a SINGLE PREMIER FAMILY, with SM LKY as the Chairman of the GIC; 'Baby' LHL as the Chairman of Monetary Authority of Singapore (effectively the Central Bank) and soon to be the PM of Singapore; and Mdm HC ('Baby' LHL's wife) being the CEO of Temasek Holdings.
The entire Civil Service (including the SAF and Police Force), Government Agencies, and GLCs are all politicised by appointment holders owing allegiance not to the State of Singapore, but to the Ruling Political Party.
Will there be any orderly transition to an ALTERNATIVE POLITICAL PARTY if ever the Ruling Party lose its premier position with the Singapore Electorate ?
Or will we see the messy handover of power as seen in Taiwan, where the Kuomintang's pervasive influence in all corners of Taiwanese Life, resulted in messy attempts to trip the effective rule of the new government formed by Taiwan's Opposition Party ?
Thirty years of good life in Singapore, since the late 1970's, have lulled us into deep political slumber, and any political awakening during the last thirty years was quickly repressed (as in the arrest of the 21 members of the Catholic Church in the 1980's).
The continuing deep slumber fulfilled SM LKY's philosophy of 'Filling the Stomach, and Dull the MInd', and allowed him to execute his tasks.
It is amazing that SM LKY was able to convince his fellow generation of 'Founding Fathers' to quit their positions in Government and Politics, by giving them the excuse that they have to make way for new blood - so as to prepare a new generation of political leaders for Singapore.
Yet at the ripe old age of 80 years when many would have sit back and relax, he continue to cling on to his own Parliamentary Seat, his own position in Government as SM, and ensured executive leadership positions in GLCs for himself and members of his family. -
Hi Atobe,
After reading your recent posts I do wonder who the hell you really are
- your analysis of the current situation is spot on, and you seem to have in-depth knowledge of the political scene here. Political insider? 
I only know a little bit here and there from my random wanderings on the net, being more focused on the global situation.
Kudos. More people should be aware of the local scene as you are!
/me just a concerned citizen -
Agreed! It's about time! No, in fact it's way past time! But better late than never.Originally posted by relevation:All of us should be concern for our future and our children's future ... the title is meant to instil the sense of urgency, it is meant to wake all of us up.
There are so many issues, so many problems, all of them fundamental, none of them solvable by trivial solutions.
If we don't wake up, we might as well return to our pods and plug back into the Matrix of our time and continue being human Duracell batteries. -
Don't tell me the problem. I heard that many times in the coffee shops, theTurf Club and some exclusive private clubs.Originally posted by Atobe:We should be responsible for OUR FUTURE, and that of the FUTURE OF OUR SUCCEEDING GENERATIONS, by ensuring that a stable political process exist in Singapore.
There is too much reliance on a SINGLE PREMIER FAMILY, with SM LKY as the Chairman of the GIC; 'Baby' LHL as the Chairman of Monetary Authority of Singapore (effectively the Central Bank) and soon to be the PM of Singapore; and Mdm HC ('Baby' LHL's wife) being the CEO of Temasek Holdings.
The entire Civil Service (including the SAF and Police Force), Government Agencies, and GLCs are all politicised by appointment holders owing allegiance not to the State of Singapore, but to the Ruling Political Party.
Will there be any orderly transition to an ALTERNATIVE POLITICAL PARTY if ever the Ruling Party lose its premier position with the Singapore Electorate ?
Or will we see the messy handover of power as seen in Taiwan, where the Kuomintang's pervasive influence in all corners of Taiwanese Life, resulted in messy attempts to trip the effective rule of the new government formed by Taiwan's Opposition Party ?
Thirty years of good life in Singapore, since the late 1970's, have lulled us into deep political slumber, and any political awakening during the last thirty years was quickly repressed (as in the arrest of the 21 members of the Catholic Church in the 1980's).
The continuing deep slumber fulfilled SM LKY's philosophy of 'Filling the Stomach, and Dull the MInd', and allowed him to execute his tasks.
It is amazing that SM LKY was able to convince his fellow generation of 'Founding Fathers' to quit their positions in Government and Politics, by giving them the excuse that they have to make way for new blood - so as to prepare a new generation of political leaders for Singapore.
Yet at the ripe old age of 80 years when many would have sit back and relax, he continue to cling on to his own Parliamentary Seat, his own position in Government as SM, and ensured executive leadership positions in GLCs for himself and members of his family.
Tell me the solution. -
Does it matter whether or not you "wake up" ? What have you done after waking up? Simply agreeing to "orators" who cry their hearts out is easy. It is always heartening to hear somebody say something that you always want to say but dont know how. More heartening if the salvo is directed at a common target. But after all the crying and ranting what next?Originally posted by lowem:Agreed! It's about time! No, in fact it's way past time! But better late than never.
There are so many issues, so many problems, all of them fundamental, none of them solvable by trivial solutions.
If we don't wake up, we might as well return to our pods and plug back into the Matrix of our time and continue being human Duracell batteries.
Are you not returning to your "pods and plug back into the Matrix of our time and continue being human Duracell batteries"? -
Yes, I believe it does matter.Originally posted by thinkloud2004:Does it matter whether or not you "wake up" ? What have you done after waking up?
It's the first, the most fundamental, and the most important step. Everything that follows results from this first step.
Please try not to be so harsh to people who have just woken up from their perceived reality, into a new reality.
Even in the army, they don't ask you to shoot 300m targets in the first 10 minutes do they.
Patience! You can't expect too much, yet.
Let me ask you then, what have you done, if I may!
Read "The Epistemological Revolution" by Tom Robertson, moderator of the EnergyResources Group, to understand why having a context is important before leading to an action. -
[quote]Originally posted by lowem:
Congratulations and good for you. You are already better off than the 111,100 citizens who are jobless.
>> Thank you. Send my regards to the 111,100. I don't know how i can be of help. I am sure the Government is doing something.
I too, am pretty happy with my current situation, but I am worried about the future situation.
>> Well, at least you are happy now. But apparently many are not. As for the future, i think even President Bush and Bill Gates are worried.
May I also suggest looking beneath the shimmering surface of our society? Perhaps you may see what some of us have seen.
>> May I suggest you look on the brighter side of things and live life to its fullest. Dont make mountains out of a mole hill. There are many things you better not see because it only makes you frustrated as you cannot do anything about it. When it comes to the crunch, I am sure many Singaporeans will know what to do. But as it is now, we are relatively all right.
I am not asking for you to have a point of view leading to a possible course of action. Having a better context will lead to that.
>> I dont understand your statement. Let us not pretend to know everything. Every story has more than one version. Choose the version you want but do not impose it on others. -
Why do you continue to ask for 'The Solution' ?Originally posted by thinkloud2004:Don't tell me the problem. I heard that many times in the coffee shops, theTurf Club and some exclusive private clubs.
Tell me the solution.
The problem or problems have been identified, as you have said, so 'many times in the coffee shops, theTurf Club and some exclusive private clubs' - and in this sgForums.
What have you been able to discern from these conversations ?
My apologies for asking, but have you no thoughts of your own ?
The solution or solutions have been mentioned in my last post, and also in postings before, yet you still ask for -
'The Solution' .
Is your position the result of our 'spoon-feeding' education system that prevent you from having an analytical and creative mind - a situation that even the present Government is also lamenting ?
Or is your helpless inability a result of the mind having been numb by the good years that the Government has created for you - in that almost everything is decided for you as the Government knows best, and you need not think for yourself but allow the Government to do so, with you only accepting what is decided for you ?
It will be a sad day, when your position becomes pervasive throughout the Singapore Population - (which boast of one of the world's highest standard of Primary and Secondary Education, but not so spectacular Tertiary Standards) - to the point that even when solution is stated so clearly, the question remains - ' What is The Solution ?' .
Would you attempt to read the post again ? -
1. Yes, I am sure that gov.sg is thinking of something. But I'm afraid that this time, this may be beyond even government, PAP or not, lack of opposition notwithstanding.Originally posted by thinkloud2004:Send my regards to the 111,100. I don't know how i can be of help. I am sure the Government is doing something.
2. Sure, gov.sg will solve everything, or perhaps not. We've reached a stage which is beyond that now. Even gov.sg is beginning to acknowledge this in public. Limits to Power and all that, though not so explicitly.
Very understandable. There is a long thread on EnergyResources titled "In denial".Originally posted by thinkloud2004:May I suggest you look on the brighter side of things and live life to its fullest. Dont make mountains out of a mole hill. There are many things you better not see because it only makes you frustrated as you cannot do anything about it. When it comes to the crunch, I am sure many Singaporeans will know what to do. But as it is now, we are relatively all right.
A strong tendency throughout history to shoot the messenger, no? Includes burning at the stake, too. Public persecution and all.
Believe me, I have spent 20 years looking at the "brighter side of things". Now, excuse me while I explore the darker side.
On one hand, I believe that "life will find a way" (as they said back in Jurassic Park). That is the point of people like David Korten, and perhaps that may be your point too.
On the other hand, I am also unable to find any effective, scientific, non-emotional rebuttal yet so far to Jay Hanson's die-off hypothesis.
I will like to state here that I choose not to be drawn into a flame war over this "imposing of ideas" argument. I've had enough of this from other boards from as long as 10 years ago and I do not like to start all over again.Originally posted by thinkloud2004:I dont understand your statement. Let us not pretend to know everything. Every story has more than one version. Choose the version you want but do not impose it on others.
You have your beliefs, I have mine. I respect your beliefs and I hope it's good enough for you. -
Yes sir. I read your post loud and clear. The problem you mentioned is an echo that is repeated every now and then, of course each time with more drama and added venom.Originally posted by Atobe:Why do you continue to ask for 'The Solution' ?
The problem or problems have been identified, as you have said, so 'many times in the coffee shops, theTurf Club and some exclusive private clubs' - and in this sgForums.
What have you been able to discern from these conversations ?
My apologies for asking, but have you no thoughts of your own ?
The solution or solutions have been mentioned in my last post, and also in postings before, yet you still ask for -
'The Solution' .
Is your position the result of our 'spoon-feeding' education system that prevent you from having an analytical and creative mind - a situation that even the present Government is also lamenting ?
Or is your helpless inability a result of the mind having been numb by the good years that the Government has created for you - in that almost everything is decided for you as the Government knows best, and you need not think for yourself but allow the Government to do so, with you only accepting what is decided for you ?
It will be a sad day, when your position becomes pervasive throughout the Singapore Population - (which boast of one of the world's highest standard of Primary and Secondary Education, but not so spectacular Tertiary Standards) - to the point that even when solution is stated so clearly, the question remains - ' What is The Solution ?' .
Would you attempt to read the post again ?
No sir I do not find any solution, much less The Solution. All I see are statements beginning with "we should know.....", "we should have...", "we should not..." etc. That is a new year wish list on your part, not a solution as far as I am concerned. All the "should have" and "should not" have been mentioned before. Nothing new except concocted with a better vocabulary perhaps.
I am sorry if I cannot agree to some of your "well researched" analogy and analysis. And I know it can be frustrating for you if I choose to counter what you have so nobly and starkly declared.
You can continue to champion your cause but I do not buy your arguments. I am responding because you have had made some comments on my other post.
As I have said before, when it comes to the crunch, many of us will know what to do. Probably the less vocal will be in the front line first when and if such a situation arises. Lengthy speeches peppered with emotions are only for the drama producers. As it is now, life is wonderful - I don't know about you but i am enjoying mine. -
I have just watched a documentary on the A-bomb.
Actually the Japanese were about to surrender. They have to because towards the end of world war II, the American were flying in and out of Japan at will.
The A-bomb was dropped so that the Americans could end the war with Japan unconditionally so that the Japanese would not surrender to the Russians. Should that happen, Japan would have turned communist.
The reason why I have brought this up was how Japanese citizen's total deference to their Government at that time that fails to think for themselves and act to safeguard their interest (ie to surrender), that lead to the American dropping of the A-bomb.
Authoritrianism will surely lead us to disaster. The Japanese paid it with their lives and more so in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Infact those who died in the A-bomb explosion could have lived on of not for the decision that was delayed and left to just a handfull of people the then indecisive Emperor.
Alas, hopefully those of you who have read this posting will think and consider and prevent such misfortune from ever happening to Singapore.