Singaporeans are fools!
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Dear mr Relevation,
I believe you have make your point in your essay.
Please recognise that you cannot please or brainwash all the people reading and responding to your essay.
Bring some more new ideas or solution instead of shooting back at the opposing comments.
Be more pro-active, not reactive
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Faith is a more apt word
Pardon my humble literary
No body can deny the good of what our governement has deliverd and developed for the past few years.
One has only to look at how much Singapore has leapfroged and reinterate itself in the face of globalisation with mere population and scarcity of land.
This is one of the many deeds that no others can discredit our government for.
This bring across the point that I will like to put forward.
Faith.
Theres this what I call "the collary of different governing bodies"
A fine example would be that America.
Democracy, advocates of freedom.
The policy brings about revolution at its highest level. Reform at its best and pro-active in the event of conundrums.
And its achievement?
An economic powerhouse, an unrivalled variety of flourishing industries.
Sure it has its credits but not without its toll,
Political struggles,each claiming substantial stakes in political muscle.
I cannot help but wonder how simple policy is dealt in a mawish manner.
Freedom?
One juz have to look at its soaring crime rates and its circulation of firearms in America
Ironically the dogma behind that of both the good and bad repercussion - Freedom
Different approach to governing has its pros and cons
What set us apart is the evaluation of all things good and bad.
Sure Singaporeans may lack the fervor and proactive of the other countries.
The cons notwitstanding, we sure have our pros.
Stabiliy result in success
Success result in faith
That is y I would rather call it faith than "foolish" for Precedent (Success of government policy) has its marks deeply ensconced.
"Foolish" will be the condone of felony, which is what I call "blind faith" and that certainly is one trait Singaporeans have not. -
Drama and venom ? How so ?Originally posted by thinkloud2004:Yes sir. I read your post loud and clear. The problem you mentioned is an echo that is repeated every now and then, of course each time with more drama and added venom.
I am not sure how you have read my post of 5 January 2004 10:28am, as I do not recall writing the following which you claimed to be able to see '....statements beginning with "we should know.....", "we should have...", "we should not..." etc.'
No sir I do not find any solution, much less The Solution. All I see are statements beginning with "we should know.....", "we should have...", "we should not..." etc. That is a new year wish list on your part, not a solution as far as I am concerned. All the "should have" and "should not" have been mentioned before. Nothing new except concocted with a better vocabulary perhaps.
How did you read those starting lines into my post ?
Sadly you prefer to belittle my effort in responding to your request for details of the 'billion dollar scandals, by describing those stated events as analogies - (which imply conjectured descriptions) - and analysis - (which insinuate speculation).
I am sorry if I cannot agree to some of your "well researched" analogy and analysis. And I know it can be frustrating for you if I choose to counter what you have so nobly and starkly declared.
You can continue to champion your cause but I do not buy your arguments. I am responding because you have had made some comments on my other post.
Unfortunately, those events that you claimed to be 'analogies and analysis' are reported facts published at various times in the local and foreign newspapers, as well as financial research papers of investment corporations.
It is quite amazing to see your shift in positions taken in your different postings, as much as you have seem it unfit for Relevation to change his position.
As I have said before, when it comes to the crunch, many of us will know what to do. Probably the less vocal will be in the front line first when and if such a situation arises. Lengthy speeches peppered with emotions are only for the drama producers. As it is now, life is wonderful - I don't know about you but i am enjoying mine.
In your response of 5 January 2004 02:26a.m. to Relevation you had asked him to provide details of the 'billion dollar scandals' to satisfy - "For my info, please put it in clear layman terms with all the facts and figures. "
Yet when my volunteered response with the 'facts and figures' of the various 'million dollar scandals' was made, you asked in your post of 5 January 2004 11:17a.m. for no more repeat of the scandals and asked 'what the solutions should be ?'.
Now in your present post, you claim those 'facts and figures' to be 'analogies and analysis filled with drama and venom' (??).
Being a lecturer as indicated in your profile, I am amazed that a learned person in your capacity is able to read more - between the lines of my post, and avoid the content itself.
It is sad when a trained mind will not or cannot see the problems that Singapore will encounter in the longer term with the expiry of the Premier Family, and with the current political processes that can affect the future politics in Singapore.
It is a sad day indeed, when the better educated in Singapore prefer to turn a blind eye to dangerous development for the sake of immediate material security and comfort, and prefer to be apolitical.
Little wonder that the Government has recognised too late the problem that they have created from 30 years of direct involvement in the lives of Singaporean.
Indeed, they are even now lamenting of a serious lack in enterprising Singaporeans prepared to face the risks of any uncertain enterprises - whether these be in commerce, or industry, or arts, or POLITICS.
From your apolitical position, I am not certain how to read your line which state that - 'Probably the less vocal will be in the front line first when and if such a situation arises'.
Will the 'less vocal in the front line' melt down as in so many instance when cajoled with election treats and pressed with election threats? -
I think singaporean is hopeless. Imagine all the educated mind following and obeying every single orders from the government acting like machinery or in a worst term "slave" without question. The smart imported one will be better off keeping their status as PR enjoying all the benefit of living in singapore instead of commiting themselve to be a hopeless citizen.
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thanks for ur opinion tt really added no value into the discussion.Originally posted by MYPR:I think singaporean is hopeless. Imagine all the educated mind following and obeying every single orders from the government acting like machinery or in a worst term "slave" without question. The smart imported one will be better off keeping their status as PR enjoying all the benefit of living in singapore instead of commiting themselve to be a hopeless citizen. -
Well, it is an opinion, quite distinct from statement of fact. Let's hear everyone out shall we.Originally posted by wuming78:thanks for ur opinion tt really added no value into the discussion.
If everyone agreed with each other in everything, imagine how boring it would be
Is Singapore hopeless? I don't know. Knee-jerk reactions might include "go to another country lar you quitter!"
But I've been looking at the global situation. Some have concluded that is hopeless too. Any knee-jerk reaction anyone? "Go to another planet lar you quitter?!"
I'm not so sure it's hopeless. I'm reserving my judgment on both counts. In short, I hope, that there is hope, and that hope is not in vain. But, then, would that be a realistic point of view? -
Originally posted by lowem:
im not sure if it was a typo on his part. he typed "singaporean is hopeless", not "singapore is hopeless". his opinion sounded to me more like a tirade against us the people rather than our country as an political - economical entity.
Well, it [b]is an opinion, quite distinct from statement of fact. Let's hear everyone out shall we.
If everyone agreed with each other in everything, imagine how boring it would be
Is Singapore hopeless? I don't know. Knee-jerk reactions might include "go to another country lar you quitter!"
But I've been looking at the global situation. Some have concluded that is hopeless too. Any knee-jerk reaction anyone? "Go to another planet lar you quitter?!"
I'm not so sure it's hopeless. I'm reserving my judgment on both counts. In short, I hope, that there is hope, and that hope is not in vain. But, then, would that be a realistic point of view?[/b] -
Whether one's opinion add any value into the discussion is not for you alone to judge. It's a discussion that anyone can just post their feeling. The topic here is "Singaporeans are fools" and why are you pinpointing when i think singaporean is hopeless? Hopeless in the sense that singaporean allow themselve to be controlled, living a life not their own but for the ruling party to rule unlike those FTs that was imported. They come here to gain for themselve, to be rich and not to be slave. Do you see FT trapping themselve in singapore by being citizen for long?Originally posted by wuming78:thanks for ur opinion tt really added no value into the discussion. -
thanks for the elaboration.Originally posted by MYPR:Whether one's opinion add any value into the discussion is not for you alone to judge. It's a discussion that anyone can just post their feeling. The topic here is "Singaporeans are fools" and why are you pinpointing when i think singaporean is hopeless? Hopeless in the sense that singaporean allow themselve to be controlled, living a life not their own but for the ruling party to rule unlike those FTs that was imported. They come here to gain for themselve, to be rich and not to be slave. Do you see FT trapping themselve in singapore by being citizen for long? -
Perhaps you're describing this :Originally posted by MYPR:Imagine all the educated mind following and obeying every single orders from the government acting like machinery or in a worst term "slave" without question ...
... from the proletarians nothing is to be feared. Left to themselves, they will continue from generation to generation and from century to century, working, breeding, and dying, not only without any impulse to rebel, but without the power of grasping the world could be other than it is.
9. Keeping Masses Down
http://www.orwelltoday.com/masses.shtml
Will the proles have the power to grasp the world differently? Perhaps uncontrollable external events might force unexpected changes in the most inconvenient of ways. -
This ding dong will bring us nowhere. You are getting incensed and irrational. Let this be my last post as far as this topic is concerned. However in summary, I would like to say the following :Originally posted by Atobe:It is quite amazing to see your shift in positions taken in your different postings, as much as you have seem it unfit for Relevation to change his position.
In your response of 5 January 2004 02:26a.m. to Relevation you had asked him to provide details of the 'billion dollar scandals' to satisfy - "For my info, please put it in clear layman terms with all the facts and figures. "
Yet when my volunteered response with the 'facts and figures' of the various 'million dollar scandals' was made, you asked in your post of 5 January 2004 11:17a.m. for no more repeat of the scandals and asked 'what the solutions should be ?'.
Now in your present post, you claim those 'facts and figures' to be 'analogies and analysis filled with drama and venom' (??).
Being a lecturer as indicated in your profile, I am amazed that a learned person in your capacity is able to read more - between the lines of my post, and avoid the content itself.
It is sad when a trained mind will not or cannot see the problems that Singapore will encounter in the longer term with the expiry of the Premier Family, and with the current political processes that can affect the future politics in Singapore.
It is a sad day indeed, when the better educated in Singapore prefer to turn a blind eye to dangerous development for the sake of immediate material security and comfort, and prefer to be apolitical.
Little wonder that the Government has recognised too late the problem that they have created from 30 years of direct involvement in the lives of Singaporean.
Indeed, they are even now lamenting of a serious lack in enterprising Singaporeans prepared to face the risks of any uncertain enterprises - whether these be in commerce, or industry, or arts, or POLITICS.
From your apolitical position, I am not certain how to read your line which state that - 'Probably the less vocal will be in the front line first when and if such a situation arises'.
Will the 'less vocal in the front line' melt down as in so many instance when cajoled with election treats and pressed with election threats?
1. You used the opportunity presented by Mr Relevation to dump your so called "facts and figures"....volunteered but unsolicited....to a (hopefully)...unsuspecting audience.
2. The gullible ones lapped up your content whole - line, hook and stinker. They applauded and you feel honoured. That makes you think you are absolutely correct in everything that you have had written.
3. Among the audience there are some who are more discerning and choose to question your well-scripted drama and that makes you furious, You decide to belittle those who do not respond positively to your act. You even attempted to frighten everybody with your version of a predicted future.
4. You dont like LKY and his family for whatever reasons best known to yourself. And you want others to hate them just like you.
5 Quoting incidents of $$$$ never fail to wake up anybody -- even the dumbest who know next to nothing about politics WILL agree with you. Who cares about the facts as long as it is "the poor whacking the rich". Thank goodness majority of Singaporeans have better brains than you would otherwise expect.
6. Your script has demonstrated nothing but spite, hatred, jealousy and vindictiveness. If this is not venom, what is ?
7. Your so called Solution is to ask Singaporeans to vote in the opposition, any Mr ABC (Axxxhole, Blockhead or Clown) so long as he is not a PAP member.
8. Singaporeans who dont heed your call are people who "turn a blind eye to dangerous development for the sake of immediate material security and comfort, and prefer to be apolitical".
Between a frying pan and the fire, the choice is obvious. Besides the temperature is just right so why ask people to make the jump?
9. "Little wonder that the Government has recognised too late the problem that they have created from 30 years of direct involvement in the lives of Singaporean.
Indeed, they are even now lamenting of a serious lack in enterprising Singaporeans prepared to face the risks of any uncertain enterprises - whether these be in commerce, or industry, or arts, or POLITICS." - - this is one rare occasion you agreed with the Government albeit for your own benefit. Are you saying that if I agree wholeheartedly with you, the above will not apply to me?
10 You dont care about the survival of Singapore, indeed the survival of the citizens. You want to change the status quo even when most people are feeling comfortable and happy, citing your problem as everybody's problem. When others see through your camouflage, you deliver personal attack beginning with checking his profile. There are more in my profie than being a lecturer.
If you have the time read the LETTER page of TODAY (6 Jan)
entitled "HAIL THE EXTRAORDINARY, ORDINARY SINGAPOREAN"
Long live the ordinary Singaporeans. -
umm guys, i was just wondering...
why is it that some of you can commit yourselves to statements like "singaporeans are fools",
"singapore(an?) is hopeless" etc...
where do you all get facts and figures to back that up?
what makes you think that you are the only one in this island who has "awaken" or "discovered the ultimate truth"?
i'm sure there're many others who had seen it coming much earlier than you all have but most have come to realise that this is a "suck thumb" kinda thing so they don't bother to voice out like you all have and that doesn't mean they are all for the government.
as far as i can comprehend what thinkloud2004 was trying to say, he agrees with all the "bad stuff" you all have dug up about the government but is that all you can do? posting "noble thoughts" endlessly in hope that someone will take notice & do something for you? where's all the action despite the violent reactions? -
can i ask everybody one question: Do we stay here and die or go overseas and die?
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which you prefer?Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:can i ask everybody one question: Do we stay here and die or go overseas and die?
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Dear thinkloud2004,
It is interesting how you continue to read more into my post then what is clearly written in quite simple English.
No where have I suggested any solicitation for any agreement; and from past threads, I will respect any alternative views that are of substance, as it is expected of my views posted in this sgForums.
Unfortunately, my response to your posts do not seem to connect, as you ignore my response and continue your jaunting into the many different directions.Originally posted by thinkloud2004:
This 'ding dong' does not seem to strike a resonance as the bell seems 'to shift out of sync' when one tries to ring it.
This ding dong will bring us nowhere. You are getting incensed and irrational. Let this be my last post as far as this topic is concerned. However in summary, I would like to say the following :
Incense ? Irrational ?
I am not sure how you seem to be so perceptive to the extent of being unable to discern factual events from conjectures.continuing post by thinkloud2004:
Certainly, the opportunity is afforded by this sgForums for anyone to jump in to offer their point of views, unless you think differently.
1. You used the opportunity presented by Mr Relevation to dump your so called "facts and figures"....volunteered but unsolicited....to a (hopefully)...unsuspecting audience.
My point of views included those 'Billion Dollar Scandalous Events' in Singapore, which you had requested.
Were these 'facts and figures' conjectures on my part ? Let us leave it to the audience.continuing post by thinkloud2004:
You belittle the audience in this sgForums by your own lamentable standards in thinking that the audience are gullible ones willingly lapping up my contents whole - line, hook, and stinker (???).
2. The gullible ones lapped up your content whole - line, hook and stinker. They applauded and you feel honoured. That makes you think you are absolutely correct in everything that you have had written.
I am open to criticism from anyone who find any weaknesses in my posts, as much as you have been able to exercise your privilege in belittling my effort.continuing post by thinkloud2004:
Here you are contradicting yourself.
3. Among the audience there are some who are more discerning and choose to question your well-scripted drama and that makes you furious, You decide to belittle those who do not respond positively to your act. You even attempted to frighten everybody with your version of a predicted future.
If the audience are discerning, I have only you to contend with so far with your manner of questioning my supposed 'well-scripted drama'.
Unfortunately, the script of the drama that I have posted were not written by me, as those 'Billion Dollar Scandals' were the result of decisions made by members of the Government formed by the Ruling Party.
Can discerning people be so easily frightened ?
If such discerning people can be moved to fright, surely their discerning ability will dictate a reasoned course of actions with their educated attentiveness to the dangers ahead ?
If I can sway the views of any discerning audience of sgForums, I would have done an additional Political Service to MY COUNTRY, in addition to my National Service Duties.continuing post by thinkloud2004:
How did you come to this conclusion from this post ?
4. You dont like LKY and his family for whatever reasons best known to yourself. And you want others to hate them just like you.
In my contributing post to the thread concerning LKY's wife medical bills, I had even defended SM LKY, when someone declared him to have abused the privileges of his office.
I do not hate his persona, and I respect his audacity in facing challenges, but I do not respect his politics of arrogance, his condescending moralistic positions, double standards, and hypocrisy.
He was the head of a team of founding fathers of Singapore, who had the support of Singaporeans in overcoming the odds after having got Singapore kicked out of Malaysia with his brand of politics.
After almost THIRTY NINE Years down the road of independence, Singaporean today do not seem to strike a resonnance with the political leadership, as it had been during the immediate period after being 'booted out' of Malaysia in 1965.
Instead we are seeing more Singaporeans questioning their role in Singapore, and if it is better to leave and settle elsewhere.
Today, we have 7-Figured MILLION DOLLAR Ministers telling factory workers, taxi drivers, bank officers, airport and port workers, air crew and pilots that their 4 and 5 figures need to be trimmed in order for Singapore to fight the good fight.
Is there any morality in this ?continuing post by thinkloud2004:
From your ending statement of this paragraph, it is unfortunate that you have ended the way you have, as it reflects your own position in thinking that the majority of Singaporeans do not have better brains.
5 Quoting incidents of $$$$ never fail to wake up anybody -- even the dumbest who know next to nothing about politics WILL agree with you. Who cares about the facts as long as it is "the poor whacking the rich". Thank goodness majority of Singaporeans have better brains than you would otherwise expect.
Unfortunately, the facts in Singapore today is that we have brainy graduates who are taxi drivers, retrenched bank officers being retrained to be chamber maids, retrenched engineers working as toilet attendants - these have been reported in the Straits Times in 2003, and are not analogies on my part.
Am I frightening anyone of the stark reality, or stating the truth as it is to shake someone like you, who is fortunate enough to have a well paying lecturer's job, that there are other Singaporeans whose present plight require political attention.continuing post by thinkloud2004:
Your statement seems to strike a memory chord from a confrontation between SM LKY and the venerable Jeyaratnam (ex-SecretaryGeneral of the Worker's Party).
6. Your script has demonstrated nothing but spite, hatred, jealousy and vindictiveness. If this is not venom, what is ?
This was the only face saving exit that SM LKY could muster, when SM LKY had no further answers to the truth of the events of the day as brought up by Jeyaratnam.
You seem to learn well from the PAP's way, and hopefully you will not spread such shallow thinking to the students whom you lecture. -
continuing post by thinkloud2004:
Now I am wondering who is attempting to spread spite, hatred, jealousy and vindictiveness towards a fellow Singaporean who is prepared to side with the Opposition ?
7. Your so called Solution is to ask Singaporeans to vote in the opposition, any Mr ABC (Axxxhole, Blockhead or Clown) so long as he is not a PAP member.
In your effort to describe Mr ABC in the manner you did, you are also imitating the infamous PAP line towards the Opposition.
It is certainly worrying that a lecturer has such shallow opinion towards his fellow Singaporeans.
You would have been more worthy of your position had you been more generous by suggesting Mr ABC as Able, Brave, Concern, when there is a generation of graduates, whose 'stomach are hungry, and the mind is no longer politically dull', and willing to be involved with the Opposition.
My Solution is for Singaporeans to be more generous by electing any one who is prepared to risk his position by being nominated as an Opposition Member, and allow his ability to be tested in Parliament.
Singapore needs a balance Parliament in order that Singaporean's interest is looked after in a more open and transparent manner.
For 39 years, we have allowed a One Party Rule to dominate Politics and dictated events that affect the future of Singapore.
Can we allow this to continue, when Singapore is made to depend so heavily on the finite talent of ONE Family ?continuing post by thinkloud2004:
It is unfortunate that you prefer to twist the statement with your interpretation to suit your attempt to cover your tracks of being apolitical.
8. Singaporeans who dont heed your call are people who [b]"turn a blind eye to dangerous development for the sake of immediate material security and comfort, and prefer to be apolitical".
Between a frying pan and the fire, the choice is obvious. Besides the temperature is just right so why ask people to make the jump? [/b]
It is amazing how you flip and flop in your positions taken, when you first put forth a challenge for details of the Scandals; then when the various Billion Dollar Scandals are detailed, you asked for the Solutions, and when the Solutions are hinted, you prefer to ignore the Solutions with your apolitical points, and deride the views of others when you have none to offer.
If you believe that between a frying pan and the fire, it is obvious in your views that the temperature is right, no one is objecting to your position.
Fortunately, there are some in this sgForums, who believe that the warm heat lulling everyone to slumber will soon turn into a 'flambe' - when the intoxicating cooking wine catches the fire below to make a huge flambe of everyone in the pan.continuing post by thinkloud2004:
Since you have only join this sgForums during 29 November 2003, you have missed quite a few of my contradicting posts, in which I have supported some Government policies, in both this Politics and Military Nuts sites.
9. [b]"Little wonder that the Government has recognised too late the problem that they have created from 30 years of direct involvement in the lives of Singaporean.
Indeed, they are even now lamenting of a serious lack in enterprising Singaporeans prepared to face the risks of any uncertain enterprises - whether these be in commerce, or industry, or arts, or POLITICS." - - this is one rare occasion you agreed with the Government albeit for your own benefit. Are you saying that if I agree wholeheartedly with you, the above will not apply to me? [/b]
Since you have shown your apt ability to second guess the intent of my posts, I will be generous to leave it to you to decide what is best applicable for your preferred shifty positions taken.continuing post by thinkloud2004:
It always interest me to understand the profile of the person who can take on a position in refuting reality that is faced by Singaporeans.
10 You dont care about the survival of Singapore, indeed the survival of the citizens. You want to change the status quo even when most people are feeling comfortable and happy, citing your problem as everybody's problem. When others see through your camouflage, you deliver personal attack beginning with checking his profile. There are more in my profie than being a lecturer.
What is the character of someone who believe that 'most people in Singapore are feeling comfortable and happy, when most people in Singapore are worried and concerned with their uncertain future'.
Even the Straits Times had recently reported a drop in the usage of Credit Cards by - (of all people) - high income earners.
Are you in touch with reality, or have you been cloistered in the Ivory Towers of 'Acamedia' ?continuing post by thinkloud2004:
The article was a well written piece of self-congratulatory praise of those few extraordinarily ordinary Singaporeans, who are prepared to circumvent their present predicament against all odds.
If you have the time read the LETTER page of TODAY (6 Jan)
entitled "HAIL THE EXTRAORDINARY, ORDINARY SINGAPOREAN"
Long live the ordinary Singaporeans.
What is the percentage of this group of 'extraordinarily ordinary' Singaporeans against the entire population ?
What about the other large percentage of unemployed, unemployable, infirmed, and aged in our Singaporean Community ?
Do you seriously believe that Singaporeans will be in a position to dictate the pace of political change in Singapore ?
The decision as to who will be the next succeeding Prime Minister of Singapore is beyond the reach of Singaporeans, let alone the entire Ruling Party.
Certainly I will toast to ordinary Singaporeans who have been shepherded like sheep for too long, and misled with grand ideals only to be disappointed like the other animals in the book entitled the Animal Farm. -
From today's (Wed 7 Jan 2004) ST :
(DPM Lee) : Opening up will continue for two simple reasons: The Government has no monopoly of knowledge and ideas in a more complex world, and Singaporeans, with better education, have a stronger desire to be involved.
... and the Government? It 'will pull back from being all things to all citizens'.
As I've been saying, gov.sg has been acknowledging its own Limits to Power.
thinkloud2004, you have a point in that it's up to the people now. I may not share your (impressive) faith that the citizens will unfailingly rise up to the occasion, but for the sake of our future, let's hope so.
Atobe, if only regime change were so simple and would change everything at one stroke. While many people have been bickering bitterly supporting the ruling party on one side and the opposition on the other, I have yet to see a significant number of people acknowledging the external, uncontrollable problems headed in our direction.
If neither the government nor the opposition acknowledge and educate the people on the threat of Peak Oil, hyper-inflation and the increasingly unstable financial structures, it is up to us, the ordinary folks, to acknowledge and educate ourselves.
Context comes first. Taking action, if there is to be in fact any viable course of action, will come later. -
Dear All
Let us NOT be ---'ed again. Lets not be so easily swayed and eager to agreejust because he is DPM- LHL.
"DPM promises a more open Singapore" (7th Jan 2004 ST)
The whole article focuses on allowing people to give feedback and consultancy......blar, blar blar.....(some old wine in a new bottle?)
But lets all read between the lines:
1) pay attention to : "give ideas....sincere contribution.....action....volunteer work ....consensus building....improve policies....."
All these are old news. If Singaporean's view really cut ice in the decision making process- our CPF would NOT have been cut, our economy would have more entrepeurs since GCT's time (since 1992), our manufacturing base would not have been in a bad shape today, our investors would have been bounty and we would have been ready to challenge China and India's magnet in pulling our investor away....... (so much for transparency and consultancy - which were promised 12 years ago)
Also these phrases implies that the government wants the cake and eat it also. He wants you to give FREE feedback but DO NOT WANT YOU to have the POWER to formally challenge him (of course in Parliament).
This is the best joke I have heard since the begnning of the year.
2) Next- DPM assumes a complete control of the government by PAP only and OF course the MONOPOLY of power by PAP. Absolutely no one else.
"The government will not view all critics as adversaries.....
BUT criticism that scores political points and undermines the government 's standing is another matter altogether. Continue to expect a strong rebuttal and those entering the arena such as the opposition, should understand the rules of the game."
I felt very insulted, ashame and wondering what the parliament, our constitution as well as the institution of political parties are for what purposes.
If he is implying that no one should speak out as oppositions parties and that he is threatening with "rules of the game", we might as well declare a dictatorship of the PAP in Singapore. How about renaming ourselves as the Republic of PAP and scrap election and the constiturion as well as the parliament altogether.
REAL decision, Laws and policies are made in parliament as well as done in the guideline of the constitution of the Republic of Singapore.
Feedback and consultancy assumes a complete total control of the PAP in power with no oppositional involvement. Feedback and consultancy can only influence policies BUT there is absolutely NO veto powers in parliament to prevent any policy from enacting into laws.
Unless he allows public demonstration and protest against any of his policies, consultancy or his claim to have transparency CUTS NO ICE.
Singaporeans are still at the mercy of how PAP wants to decide. No power in parliament or the clearance to protest publicly its only child's play to suggest that Singapore is going to be an open society.
Without the Power to ensure openness, there is no openness.
So Singaporeans, don't be ----'ed again, otherwise you will suit the title of this posting. -
Dear Medicated Oil,Originally posted by Medicated Oil:Dear mr Relevation,
I believe you have make your point in your essay.
Please recognise that you cannot please or brainwash all the people reading and responding to your essay.
Bring some more new ideas or solution instead of shooting back at the opposing comments.
Be more pro-active, not reactive !
I agree with you.
To be honest, there is no real solution to prevent ourselves from beeing foolish other than the ballot box itself or if someone or even myself is crazy or bold enough to go out and organise a protest/ demonstration. But knowing how ___________the majority of Singaporeans are, I just don't know how long we have to be in a democratic dictatorship. China has no choice, but we willingly agreed to give up that choice. Alas....
Looking at what DPM says, really de-moralises and disappointed me. He assumes that there will never be good oppositions. He does not recognise the need to respect the free-will of Singaporeans to listen and judge for ourselves the choice of our government/ futire government as well as to abide by the constuitution to have freedom of the oppositional voices as well as he does not respect the institution of the political parties and their rights to participate, even in consultation and feedback. He only wants complete power and monopoly of the PAP. No one else can decide other than the PAP. That's why in my first posting, we have made the mistake of having them in power for 44 years. They have forgotten our rights! -
It should be stay here, be controlled or go oversea and be in control of your own life. You can die anywhere anytime.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:can i ask everybody one question: Do we stay here and die or go overseas and die? -
"A Means of Control" is also to be found almost everywhere else, believe it or not.Originally posted by MYPR:It should be stay here, be controlled or go oversea and be in control of your own life. You can die anywhere anytime.
You will find the same systems of control (the exact parameters will vary slightly) in most of the overseas countries that you might have considered. -
Dear Mr Atobe....
I thought that was my parting shot - at least until I come back from my overseas trip (yeah I can afford it, call me names again). Your reply is prompt and elaborate. If anything I appreciate your indulgence in this episode. If I could afford that luxury of time (I am rushing this at the airport), I would certainly work my way into Parliament (not necessarily for the PAP).
The real battle is with the big boys up there and saying things in front of the nation. Not behind a cloak of anonymity, with a few like-minded supporters (whom you called audience) and sneering and sniggering at our leaders, the system and indeed the country as whole. Yes¡Âand giving Singaporeans all kinds of labels. And when challenged, attention was turned to damage control in trying to win back the hearts and minds of the very people you were seeking for support but, inadvertently or otherwise, had chosen to debase and deride.
Go back to the post by Relevation, 31 December 2003 ?05:02 PM and all the snippets that followed. Read them. Are they all logical, sincere and truthful? Does silent on your part means consent? And when I countered Revelation with a few provocative and apparently pro Government remarks, your reply has been fast and furious ¨C dutifully scrutinising every word that I have had written.
I believe I have served my purpose in joining this debate. With due respect to your "well researched information" which I have yet to verify, but you have acted no different from those who babble unreservedly at coffee shops. Like them, the decibel goes up a few units each time the word PAP or LKY is mentioned. And like them, the audience better nod their heads in unison or risk getting the rap and label.
I am sorry if my "ABC" remarks have offended you. I believe any concerned citizen will agree with me that we should not vote in anybody just for the sake of humbling the mighty PAP. As I have said, "between the frying pan and the fire, the choice is obvious". See my definition of opposition later in this page.
Quote "Certainly I will toast to ordinary Singaporeans who have been shepherded like sheep for too long, and misled with grand ideals only to be disappointed like the other animals in the book entitled the Animal Farm."
I don¡¯t know what you are driving at by quoting this. As far as I can remember, this George Orwell satire is about a bunch of hardworking honest animals who were misled by two so called liberators with the famous slogans ¡°4 legs good 2 legs bad¡±, When the tyrannical human master was ousted, the 2 liberators installed themselves as leaders and the animals discovered (painfully) later that they were no better than their original master. They even walked on 2 legs and when questioned, unabashedly declared, ¡°all animals are equal but some are more equal than others¡±. Call me Boxer if you want but do you associate yourself with Napoleon or Snowball?
In the final analysis, we acknowledge the fact that our system of Government is not perfect, just like any organization in this whole wide world that happens to be staffed by human beings. No doubt there is a need to improve. However reports of caring and daring citizens with an alternative manifesto for our collective betterment are few and far between. I don¡¯t call them opposition, unlike the ¡°ABC¡± that I have mentioned.
Some are surfacing and I wish them well. Until such time that we have more people like Mr Chiam and Mr Low entering Parliament, we shall have to contend ourselves with occasional mud slingers who do nothing more than staining themselves and others. Treat it as prime time entertainment but we must be ever ready to defend ourselves when they attempt to undermine our identity and intelligence simply because we are not helping them scoop the mud.
My last call to board. See you in a week¡¯s time.
Regards
Thinkloud2004 -
Dear Thinkloud2004,
Thank you for your effort to post a reply in clarifying the murky situation that you have created in your last few posts.
You must have felt that a reply is important enough to squeeze in some time to do so, even at the last moment before boarding, and I am grateful for the value you place to this exchange.
Certainly, I will agree with you that 'the real battle is with the big boys up there and saying things in front of the nation'.
Unfortunately, on the second part, I cannot agree with your view that what we are doing here behind 'a cloak of anonymity', and with the 'support of like minded persons - (which incidentally 'the word audience' was a label that you place on them, not me) - is merely sneering and sniggering at our leaders, the system and indeed the country as whole'.
It is truly unfortunate that you will see the situation with such narrow view, and with the typical knee jerk assessment of participants here.
The various exchanges of ideas, opinions, and positions are part of the political process, in which each side (pro- and anti- Ruling Party) will attempt to change the views and positions of each other.
I would prefer to see this Politics Section of sgForums as a process in political education for everyone, who care to participate - without frightening the paranoiatic authorities of things getting physically violent and out of control.
It is unfortunate that your participation in your early response, in this episode to the posts put up by Relevation, was nothing more then to goad him to react in the manner he is (as reflected in his post), and with yourself not engaging him on the issues raised.
If you care to note that in this episode, Relevation had opened this thread on 30 December 2003 05:02pm; I was shocked at his position taken but was interested to see what reaction this taunting thread will get; and only placed my reply on 02 January 2004 04:23am, quite a few days before you actually joined in the fray - after your one-line post on 1 January 2004 09:23a.m.
If you care to note, I did not agree with the view that 'Singaporeans are Fools' - (except that this term will be applicable to those who do not take action and prefer to be lulled into deep slumber, as mentioned in my second reply on 3 January 2004, 09:02am).
Do you seriously believe that you had made any statements with your response to Relevation positions, in which all you did was to challenge him for more facts to substantiate his points of views - with the purpose of hoping that he will tangle himself with some 'mundane issues and non-events' and making it easy meat for you to grind ?
You will do yourself a great service to research deeper into those scandalous events that I have mentioned, and perhaps you will at least be a little open minded - if not, only to give some credence - to the views posted by others.
As was mentioned before, the labelling of those who hold opposing views have not been made by me in my replies to you. Something which I would not start, and try to avoid, and which I cannot outdo your dutifully adoption of those infamous and derogatory PAP influenced views towards the Opposition in your 'ABC' remark.
Your additional detailing of your 'ABC' remark did not offend me, but it is a derogatory and self-serving label that is created by the Ruling Party towards the Opposition, which is simple enough for simple minded people to grab.
It is a marketing gimmick adopted in Politics, easy to grab and sink into the psychology of the population.
It is amazing that this shallow approach is also grabbed by those in supposedly more learned position and with higher minds, unable to discern truth from half-truths as they prefer to accept the safe path, so as to win favors or recognition to join the higher echelon of the Ruling Party, and ultimately into the Cabinet.
If you believe that my position is no different from the babble that is unreservedly loud whenever the word PAP or LKY is mentioned, will you not agree that the babble from those die-hard and wanna-bees - like yourself - will be just as loud whenever the word Opposition or CSJ (of SDP) being mentioned ? And anyone who will take side with them will be similarly tarnished by the same stroke of the brush, and 'risk getting rap and label' ?
Is there any difference in behavior on both sides of the Political Divide ?
It requires sane and educated persons to view events and facts, and see the impact that it has made to our present situation, and what it will portend for the future.
ANIMAL FARM - if you will note more objectively from the book, it was Napolean and Snowball (both PIGS and 4-legged) who declared that all those with 2-legs are bad, and 4 legs are good.
They were the ones leading the animals in the Farm to liberation, by kicking the Farmer out of the Farm; and the two pigs then took control of the farm, with the help of a pack of vicious Dogs to help them keep all the animals in the Farm under control, including the breeding of Special Offsprings that are tutored specifically for New Leadership Positions.
You have correctly read that "the animals discovered (painfully) later that they were no better than their original master. They even walked on 2 legs and when questioned, unabashedly declared,
All animals are Equal but some are [color=red]MORE EQUAL than others [/color]
Do you not see the 'Animal Farm' in Singapore ?
You are too kind to yourself by claiming the position of 'BOXER' - you should reconsider the positions of those that so earnestly protect 'Napolean and Snowball'.
At least we have common ground in believing that our system of Government is not perfect, and no sane person in this sgForums will dare to claim that there are perfect organisation in this 'whole wide world'. This does not mean that there cannot be any contribution by any one, in any capacity, in any forum - to proffer some alternative views, opinions, ideas that will contribute to the betterment of Politics in Singapore.
Mr Chiam was in Politics since the late-1970's, and he is into his late 60's; Mr Low is into his mid-40's and probably has another 30 years to go.
In Thirty Nine years of independent Singapore, we have only TWO Opposition Members of Parliament, who are ineffective to carry any of their proposal through Parliament.
With a Government that do not even respect the Functions of the Office of the Elected Presidency, and with the MONOPOLY in control of Parliamentary Process, can we afford not to be politically awaken through any opportunity available to educate ourselves ?
Will the Opposition Parties stand a chance in the next election when we have unreasoned thinking opinions that prefer to turn a blind eye to REAL SCANDALS from the Government, and with the entire political process heavily weighted in favor of the Government aka the Ruling Party ?
As a learned person, where do you think mud come from ?
Do you think Singaporeans are all PIGS like in the Animal Farm, and love to wallow in the mud ?
We need not scoop and sling the mud, but we can at least turn over the stones to find the mud that the Government is trying so hard to ignore and pave over.
At least, by futher uncovering the mud, we will find the GOLD that the Government has refused to reveal even to the Elected President and to Parliament.
Gold which are hidden by the Government and contributed by SINGAPOREANS to make Singapore what she is today.
Do we need to fling the mud at the Government ?
Perhaps only to remind them of the existence of those mud that they have created.
If you prefer to be in the warm safety of being in the Pan, and not jump out of the Pan into the Fire, please note the use of intoxicating wine being added INTO THE PAN.
This wine can also catch Fire - as often applied to make a more interesting 'flambe' dish.
Where will you run to, when the FIRE becomes OUT OF CONTROL IN THE PAN ?
I wish you 'Bon Voyage' and believe that this reply will remain in place until you next log in. -
Well...
I do not know about u guys but do u really think it is easy to govern a country, especially when it is small and having many difficulties such as terrorists threat, rising china etc... So far PAP has been very academic (since most of them r academics) in making decisions. They consult economists, they quoted words from Bio textbook they make logical decisions which at tat time seems logical. True, they had made many multi millions blunder, but which investment companies don't ? Which country has all their investments making money ? Up till now, the gov had succeeded in making multi millions back from other investments isn't it ? Up till now, I can say they made more good decisions than bad decisions.
I do not like the way they have been dealing with opposition party too. I do not get to go into election too. The problem now is the fact tat there r lesser and lesser oppositions for us to vote. I guess a good solution is to have more quality opposition. Now Gov seems to have go lenient on opposition party, tat is they r not out to weed them or eliminate them with unfair lawsuits. Steve Chia has escaped been weeded out by Gov isn't it ? -
No, it can't be easy. A country is a complicated and dynamic system consisting of many parts. As for size, a small country like Singapore intuitively ought to be easier than a very large country (in terms of both population and area) but then it will face a different set of challenges due to its size (e.g. economies of scale).Originally posted by stupidissmart:I do not know about u guys but do u really think it is easy to govern a country, especially when it is small and having many difficulties such as terrorists threat, rising china etc... up till now, I can say they made more good decisions than bad decisions.
About the good decisions, well, I believe that, just like Peak Oil, we might have reached a stage where we are getting less and less good ideas every year. Not that I am blaming anybody, or griping for regime change like certain posters here. If it is, it is - *shrug*.
Unless somebody wants to come in and rebutt me on this and show some evidence otherwise and explain to us certain simple things like, say, where are the jobs? Whatever happened to "more good years"? Where's the Next Lap? Did we mix up our direction and put in reverse gear instead?