On idealism, realism, and the awakening
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As suggested by wuming78 from this thread, who is curious to know :
... in response to my post on my worldview as stated :Originally posted by wuming78:... wat caused the change in ur perception, esp. when ns was a relatively short stint as compared to ur life. but this would not be the correct forum. perhaps u wanna talk more abt ur previous beliefs, wat caused the changes, and wat ur current beliefs are, in another forum, for discussion?
I have started this thread here to try to discuss some of my thoughts. Apologies in advance if this may not be the most appropriate forum since we may go into areas besides politics, and into the economy, energy, psychology, sociology and so on.Originally posted by lowem:You sure you want to know?
Anyway, it is a mix of idealism backed up with a strong dose of realism, cynicism and skepticism.
Before NS, it was more of idealism. Coming from a so-called "top school", I believed that people were inherently good, would work together towards a common goal, and generally will co-operate with each other. That's what we did, we studied and worked hard to get good results not only for ourselves, but which also counted towards the rankings of the class, and eventually the school.
During NS, I realised that such idealism was more of a lost cause out in the real world.
In the past year (2003), I have begun to figure out why.
The answers may be too frightening to share with anyone except thinking people who can accept the reality of the situation.
I now firmly believe that we are in the midst of a global decline in world civilization and that short of a miracle there is nothing to be done about it.
The part of me who remains an idealist hopes that there may be a way out, a soft landing.
The realist part disagrees. -
Let me try to start properly.
What my previous beliefs were - as I've said, predominantly idealism. The belief that people are good, that people will work together and co-operate. The belief that technology will solve our problems. That if you've got the technology, by all means use it.
wuming78, you're quite right, NS was only 2.5 years, it might have been too short as you said.
Well, couple of years later, into university. Much less idealism, but I still believed that technology would solve our problems. Why else would I study computer engineering but to try to help solve problems?
Fast forward into the roaring tech bubble. Blissfully unaware of the bubble, I was now an IT professional, doing what I've learnt to do - code, design, solve problems.
March 2000, NASDAQ bubble burst, still unaware. Switched jobs, still coding, still designing.
2001, 2002. Married, promptly in debt due to the usual array of loans at this stage in life - housing loan, renovation loan, car loan, hire-purchase payments ...
2003. My personal Awakening. The year I realised that something was not quite right with the society I live in. In fact, something was very wrong. The year I finally realised why, what went wrong, and how far we have been headed in this direction. I have since realised that technology may not be able to solve our problems, and in fact, Humankind's abuse of technology may have been the cause of many of them in the first place. Realisations on Peak Oil and Gas, 9/11, the monetary system, energy, the role and threat of debt in the financial structure, the role of derivatives, mass media, consumerism, the environment. The global decline, in short. Despair, despondency, finally, acceptance, resignation. What is one to do, faced with mind-blowing information? The need for deeper context, the realisation that knee-jerk reactions are not helpful. The need to know more.
2004. I have not yet found any solutions, if at all there can be any solution. But I will try to spread the word. And here I am. -
Welcome to the Real World.
It is good that all those who visit this sgForums are actually participating in a search for an answer - some knowingly involving themselves in the search, others unwittingly getting involved in the process without realising what they are doing.
The problems with the Real World is not so much created by Man, but more by the evolution of society as we develop with the aid of technology that make our lives more comfortable, and which allow us the Freedom of Time to participate in communication and the search for new experience.
The evolution of society dictate that established systems must evolve to adapt to newer circumstances, and systems that cannot and do not adapt, but depend on the old set ways of doing things can only result in misery to the other sector of society who desire to move forward.
Unfortunately, when systems are established to the comfortable existence of a few that rule over the majority, the few will devise ways to perpetuate their own permanence onto the society that they have ruled.
The only viable solution is for the spread of information, shared experience, and the wait for the GRAND AWAKENING to one's own plights and circumstance when compared to others.
One correction to the generally held notion that NS is for a short stint of 2.5 years.
All elegible Male Singaporean has to serve NS until the age of 40 years for NCOs and Other Ranks, and 50 years for Officers. -
Idealism = fantasy = day-dreamingOriginally posted by lowem:What my previous beliefs were - as I've said, predominantly idealism. -
Yes, fugue, I believe you have already made your point abundantly clear. Thank you.
Now do you have additional, more useful input besides attacking a former idealist's past point of view?
Not that it was 100% optimism. I was vaguely aware of problems in other places and in other times - Africa and the victims of hunger, AIDS, politics. Earthquakes and devastation elsewhere. The Great Depression of the 1930's.
But, it seemed to happen to other people, in other places, in other times.
Atobe,
Exactly. Welcome to the Real World, indeed. Onward to a worldview based on unflinching realism.
Now for the problems that will be happening to the people here, in this place, in this time.
Hmm. Where do we start?
Maybe we'll start where I started.
Perhaps we'll start with a very simple calculation.
Total up all your (or your family's) outstanding debts - housing loan, car loan, renovation loan, hire-purchase, if any.
Divide by your annual household income (perhaps yours + your spouse, or if you're younger, your father's and perhaps mother's income).
Multiply to get in terms of %.
So it's :
total debt / total income x 100%
Got it?
Now let's compare to averages. For the Singaporean national average, it's about 178%.
What does this mean?
One way to look at it is that it means that the average Singaporean will take 1.78 years to pay off all his debt if he puts aside 100% of his annual salary to pay it off.
Of course that's not possible, so the re-payments are stretched over time.
Is it healthy to be in such debt? No. Are most working-class people in debt? Yes.
Is this a healthy situation? Probably not.
What's a good number for this debt-service ratio? 0.00%. But few people have the ready cash to instantly pay up for the big-ticket items.
The exact ratio to be "comfortable" with is highly subjective. For some people it may run up to 300%, 400% or more - pretty dangerous grounds.
IMHO, anything over 100% is already quite shaky.
From a personal, family debt issue, one then realises that hey, "I'm not alone!" It is a nation-wide problem. It is not only a Singapore problem, it's the same in many other so-called "developed" countries.
From here on, it's not just "developed" countries, "developing" countries are staggering under debt as well.
So are companies. Very large companies.
The total amount of debt in the world is staggering. It is just as staggering for individuals as it is for SME's, MNC's, and entire countries. -
Ah yes, it is time to leave the Matrix.
While the current system is obviously absurd and fundementally flawed, what can we do about it, and what is the new ideal system that we would like to implement?
But would this new system please everyone? Or would it just turn out to be degenerate as the previous one, abbet now the dissenters are another group of people?
In this search for sense, reason and a desired way of life. When then can we arrive at the final solution to THE problem, so to speak?
Maybe never? With systems created by men I suppose this is impossible, but it has never been a great problem to me as I pin my idealism on another hope. -
Dear Iowem, this situation of 'continuous indebtedness' for all Singaporeans, is part of the political scheme of things.
It need not have happened to us, and for our succeeding generations.
The cost of real estates need not have resulted in a large number of Singaporeans unable to afford Private Housing, and make everyone dependent on the HDB for our basic needs.
Had the Government not been greedy in dictating the MINIMUM PRICE for land that are sold by the URA for Private Developments, the price of homes would not have been unaffordable to most Singaporeans.
In the early 1960's, a young graduate earning a meagre monthly salary of S$1600 would easily afford a 15 year loan on a bungalow house sold at between S$60,000 to S$100,000; and paying for a 3 year car loan instalment to a 1600cc saloon car costing S$6,000; and still there will be enough left over for savings in a bank account.
Even with supposedly affordable public housing, and long term car financing, a graduate today will remain indebted for his entire working life, with little in his bank account - or let alone his CPF.
The cost of car ownership need not have been to such a punishingly inflated value with the arbitrary COE demands, which itself serves to deflate any investment in a car over time - by killing the value and the existence of the car forcibly making it to expire in a legislated TEN Year Period.
The future of Singaporeans will be tied to his/her EMPLOYABILITY, which itself depends on the ECONOMIC STABILITY in Singapore, that supposedly depend on POLITICAL STABILITY.
Yet it is not infrequent that our Government will explain that each of our poor economic situation is always blamed on the slow-down of the economy in the US, or in Europe, or in Japan; or due to the Political and/or Monetary Instability that is ongoing beyond the shores of Singapore.
If the existing circumstances in Singapore do not affect the outcome to Singaporeans, and only external factors have been causing economic hardships to our situation, does it matter if we accept the grand scheme of things that require us to be 'Good and Obedient' Singaporeans and listen to 'PAPa' for our own sake ?
If this supposed symbiotic relations is not holding our own Political Future to ransom, what else is ?
The only way to shake ourselves out of this bind, is to change the status quo in the next election. -
Frankly speaking, I'm not quite at the stage yet where I can be sure about any alternative way.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:While the current system is obviously absurd and fundementally flawed, what can we do about it, and what is the new ideal system that we would like to implement?
The book which I've just read and returned to the library, "The Post-Corporate World" by David Korten tentatively suggests some approaches, but I'm not sure that any of them are realistic enough to be implemented while the current system still exists.
There are groups of people, from various disciplines and organisations, who are convinced that we need a complete systems collapse in order to have something better emerge from the ashes, i.e. the "hard landing" hypothesis.
Due to the awful implications behind this, I really hope that it does not have to turn out this way (!!). But is there a better way? A "soft landing"? A way out?
Perhaps what we need is for more people to be aware that there is a problem. My thinking being, if one doesn't know that there is a problem, then how would one know to go about solving it? -
This is hardly restricted to Singapore. In California, the median price of a home is about USD $400,000, which incidentally makes it relatively unaffordable to 75% of the population. Yet they still go into just this amount of debt just to buy a home!Originally posted by Atobe:... this situation of 'continuous indebtedness' for all Singaporeans, is part of the political scheme of things ... had the Government not been greedy in dictating the MINIMUM PRICE for land that are sold by the URA for Private Developments, the price of homes would not have been unaffordable to most Singaporeans.
Crazy?
No crazier than Singaporeans going into debt buying homes and cars at such high prices.
While, like many, I would have liked to lay the blame squarely at the government's feet, I have also realised that it goes beyond that.
You see, having most of the citizens in debt and working off their collective behinds to service their debt can be considered to be "a means of control".
Coming from a political angle, yes, perhaps if the "right" people are elected (it does not matter from which party), perhaps things might change.Originally posted by Atobe:The only way to shake ourselves out of this bind, is to change the status quo in the next election.
But coming from a systems approach angle, I now believe that there are some things beyond the power of government to control.
Tolerances and limits have been breached in many areas in the financial sector. Though they are for the most part invisible, the manifestations of their effects are starting to be felt.
From the resources angle, too, we are also beginning to see signs of limits being reached.
Having the "right" arrangement of people who are nominally in charge of things might help - hopefully!
But I wouldn't bet my individual behind on that.
On the other hand, trying to appeal to individuals to change their destructive behaviour is a huge task, and that is an understatement.
There may be a solution. Or there may not. We don't know. Nobody knows. -
Pardon, for this is more on our society instead of including the world at largeOriginally posted by lowem:As suggested by wuming78 from this thread, who is curious to know :
I have started this thread here to try to discuss some of my thoughts. Apologies in advance if this may not be the most appropriate forum since we may go into areas besides politics, and into the economy, energy, psychology, sociology and so on.
Sometimes, when you take a long and hard look at what is goin on around you and others in this world, you begin to realise that we are
truly slaves to the meekness which has been imposed from above and so-called wired into our minds by decades of threats and incentives to be aligned with the status quo.We have been browbeaten into accepting that being in a lifelong debt and slogging just to maintain a dignified and simple life is the normal thing for us humans to accept.
When the Party came to power, it did so on the basis of improving our lives through giving us an identity and self-respect that we were our own man, woman.Why has this degenerated into us being the "batteries" that run this megacorporation? Has it got something to do with the fact that pehaps our psychology makes us inured to fighting for ourselves after the basic needs have been met and luxuries are made readily available for us to indulge in a little fine living or dining? I believe that we have become a society that is mostly shallow, unable to think and critically analyse what truly matters, our heart and mind.We have gone from a promising country with gung-ho citizens to a state where superficial interests reign, we would sell our souls to live in a condominium which will never be worth the financial slavery that we yoke ourselves to, owe banks more than what we earn for the right to flash some plastic for one minute at the checkout.
Do we help one another?Look around, the handicapped have less welfare than pets! How many Pet taxis can you see around?Dozens can be found in the phone book.But when a disabled human being wants to get to work, what are the options available to him?A car may be affordable to some, but most cannot even afford to take a cab to work.Bus companies do not really care and they have violated the very reason for their existence as a public service provider.Semantics notwithstanding, if my education serves me correctly, public means to serve without distinction.The naked pursuit of the bottomline is irrelevant for they are government owned.The state is obliged to provide for its citizens.We are not a corporation and in a corporation, even shareholders have influence in the matters at hand.Surely you can judge for yourselves whether we have more or less say in the running of our society in the big picture and the long run?
Well, draw your own conclusions for the layman can tell that something is not right, we are being treated in a way that is inherently evil to our nature as humans.The comfort zone is like a car with its engine running over time, sure, its cool but the slow death will take over soon.I'd rather be in the scorching sun with the insects for tis natural and alive.Decide which you want.We are living on the precipice, there is a thin line between the slow and rugged way up and the degeneration of our society into one which is animalistic and cold.
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Pardon, for this is more on our society instead of including the world at largeOriginally posted by lowem:As suggested by wuming78 from this thread, who is curious to know :
I have started this thread here to try to discuss some of my thoughts. Apologies in advance if this may not be the most appropriate forum since we may go into areas besides politics, and into the economy, energy, psychology, sociology and so on.
Sometimes, when you take a long and hard look at what is goin on around you and others in this world, you begin to realise that we are
truly slaves to the meekness which has been imposed from above and so-called wired into our minds by decades of threats and incentives to be aligned with the status quo.We have been browbeaten into accepting that being in a lifelong debt and slogging just to maintain a dignified and simple life is the normal thing for us humans to accept.
When the Party came to power, it did so on the basis of improving our lives through giving us an identity and self-respect that we were our own man, woman.Why has this degenerated into us being the "batteries" that run this megacorporation? Has it got something to do with the fact that pehaps our psychology makes us inured to fighting for ourselves after the basic needs have been met and luxuries are made readily available for us to indulge in a little fine living or dining? I believe that we have become a society that is mostly shallow, unable to think and critically analyse what truly matters, our heart and mind.We have gone from a promising country with gung-ho citizens to a state where superficial interests reign, we would sell our souls to live in a condominium which will never be worth the financial slavery that we yoke ourselves to, owe banks more than what we earn for the right to flash some plastic for one minute at the checkout.
Do we help one another?Look around, the handicapped have less welfare than pets! How many Pet taxis can you see around?Dozens can be found in the phone book.But when a disabled human being wants to get to work, what are the options available to him?A car may be affordable to some, but most cannot even afford to take a cab to work.Bus companies do not really care and they have violated the very reason for their existence as a public service provider.Semantics notwithstanding, if my education serves me correctly, public means to serve without distinction.The naked pursuit of the bottomline is irrelevant for they are government owned.The state is obliged to provide for its citizens.We are not a corporation and in a corporation, even shareholders have influence in the matters at hand.Surely you can judge for yourselves whether we have more or less say in the running of our society in the big picture and the long run?
Well, draw your own conclusions for the layman can tell that something is not right, we are being treated in a way that is inherently evil to our nature as humans.The comfort zone is like a car with its engine running over time, sure, its cool but the slow death will take over soon.I'd rather be in the scorching sun with the insects for tis natural and alive.Decide which you want.We are living on the precipice, there is a thin line between the slow and rugged way up and the degeneration of our society into one which is animalistic and cold. -
Originally posted by Iowem:
This is hardly restricted to Singapore. In California, the median price of a home is about USD $400,000, which incidentally makes it relatively unaffordable to 75% of the population. Yet they still go into just this amount of debt just to buy a home!
[quote]Originally posted by Atobe:
[b]... this situation of 'continuous indebtedness' for all Singaporeans, is part of the political scheme of things ... had the Government not been greedy in dictating the MINIMUM PRICE for land that are sold by the URA for Private Developments, the price of homes would not have been unaffordable to most Singaporeans.
Crazy?
No crazier than Singaporeans going into debt buying homes and cars at such high prices.
While, like many, I would have liked to lay the blame squarely at the government's feet, I have also realised that it goes beyond that.
You see, having most of the citizens in debt and working off their collective behinds to service their debt can be considered to be "a means of control". [/b][/quote]
The situation in the USA is purely commercial, as the political system is based on an open political process.
In Singapore, the political process is similar to that of a Third World in which the Government creates an environment in which the Citizen is totally dependent on the Government.
What better way then to create an environment of perpetual indebtedness, in which the Citizen's ability to service the debt will be dependent on his own economic survival, which in turn is supposed to depend on the perpetuation of the present political status quo ?continuing post by Iowem:
Coming from a political angle, yes, perhaps if the "right" people are elected (it does not matter from which party), perhaps things might change.
[quote]Originally posted by Atobe:
[b]The only way to shake ourselves out of this bind, is to change the status quo in the next election.
But coming from a systems approach angle, I now believe that there are some things beyond the power of government to control.
Tolerances and limits have been breached in many areas in the financial sector. Though they are for the most part invisible, the manifestations of their effects are starting to be felt.
From the resources angle, too, we are also beginning to see signs of limits being reached.
Having the "right" arrangement of people who are nominally in charge of things might help - hopefully!
But I wouldn't bet my individual behind on that.
On the other hand, trying to appeal to individuals to change their destructive behaviour is a huge task, and that is an understatement.
There may be a solution. Or there may not. We don't know. Nobody knows. [/b][/quote]
From the present political situation in Singapore, I believe that our reknown Authoritarian Government is in a position to influence the outcome of the destructive behavior of the Citizens - when it suits their grand scheme of things.
WHAT or WHO will constitute to be the "Right People" ?
One will never know until those who dare to put themselves up for NOMINATION, becomes ELECTED by the Citizens.
It is amazing that while many prefer to stand on the sidelines to pass judgment, they will not even give any chance to any one willing to stick one's neck out to be in Parliament to give representation to the 'Alternative Voice' that is not heard in the volume needed.
The reasons have been that those few Opposition Candidates are unworthy to represent Singaporeans.
The unfortunate reality is that those few Opposition Candidates are in no position to counter offer the many 'goodies' that the Candidates from the Ruling Party can offer.
By the next election before 2006, it is time probably for Singaporeans to review if they need MILLION DOLLAR salaried Ministers to tell Singaporeans that they are over paid - when factory workers have average monthly wage of $1200, graduates with starting pay of $1500 (if they can get a job), airport ground staff averaging $1500 to $4000, flight crew $2000 to $4000, and pilots between $15000 to $22000.
On hind sight, the retired Foreign Minister of Singapore - Mr Rajaratnam - was right after all, when he warned in the early 1980's, of the increasing dangers and pitfalls of Singaporeans worshipping the chase for money and for the material things that it can bring.
He termed it as MONEYTHEISM. -
seems like we went thru similar things...Originally posted by lowem:As suggested by wuming78 from this thread, who is curious to know :
I have started this thread here to try to discuss some of my thoughts. Apologies in advance if this may not be the most appropriate forum since we may go into areas besides politics, and into the economy, energy, psychology, sociology and so on. -
there is nothing wrong with being an idealist. it gives one hope, and spurs you on to succeed.
being a realist just makes everyone cynical. there're already too many cynics around. -
I've been an idealist for over half my life and I'd like to agree with you.Originally posted by nismoS132:there is nothing wrong with being an idealist. it gives one hope, and spurs you on to succeed.
being a realist just makes everyone cynical. there're already too many cynics around.
There always must be some hope, or else why bother to continue living, especially faced with the circumstances we have today.
On the other hand, we cannot afford to be all idealism and no realism.
Maybe there needs to be a balance.
Also, being a realist does not have to mean being a cynic at the same time.
Well ... they are kind of related, perhaps, in the sense that both take a look at the world tinged with a certain hard edge (sharpen filter set on high?), whereas idealists have their oh very handy rose-coloured glasses (haha).
It's a hell of a contradiction, professing to understand both sides of the coin. But, IMHO, it's kind of odd and interesting at the same time, n'est-ce pas? -
I was about to reply to some other posts on this thread (thanks for all the input, much of it fantastic so far!).
But we "interrupt this programme" to bring you this piece of news that has been circulating for years at the edge of alternative news sources but which has just popped up in the mainstream media :
Plan now for a world without oil
http://www.jroller.com/page/lowem/20040106#plan_now_for_a_world -
A couple more noteworthy posts from the EnergyResources group :
1. China's Dark Days and Darker Nights
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/energyresources/message/47816
2. The Scramble for Energy
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/energyresources/message/47814 -
Back to politics.
Just stumbled across a Yahoo Group called "SG Review" :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sg_Review
Pretty good signal-to-noise ratio since posts are moderated. Specific focus on Singapore-related issues, particularly politics and economy. 2500+ members currently. -
For those who wish to engage in systems thinking, in this case interactions between economics, politics and demographics, here are some good articles from SG_Review :
1. PAP doesn't know what to do about economy
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sg_Review/message/991
2. Singapore's Artificially Inflated "Economic Growth"
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sg_Review/message/969
3. Singapore, A demographic nightmare
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sg_Review/message/966 -
Unfortunately, what we need in SIngapore now is a bit of Idealism. PAP seems to lack that tremendously. They have stayed on the ground too long already, not wanting to fly up into the air.Originally posted by fugue:Idealism = fantasy = day-dreaming
pragmatism builds a country, Idealism keeps it improving. -
From http://www.jroller.com/page/lowem/20040118#wakeup_call_on_the_food :
China : Wakeup call on the food front
Two more things besides energy that threaten the "world's factory" : food & water.
http://www.earth-policy.org/Updates/Update31.htm :
Under the North China Plain, which produces half of China's wheat and a third of its corn, water tables are falling by 3 to 10 feet per year. Along with rising temperatures and the loss of cropland to non-farm uses, this trend is shrinking the Chinese grain harvest, which has fallen in four of the past five years ...
... for the first time in their history, the Chinese will be dependent on the outside world for food supplies. And U.S. consumers will realize that, like it or not, they will be sharing their food with Chinese consumers.