singapore No.1 in EXECUTIONS
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i am not surprised that Amnesty International has honoured Singapore with another No. 1 status, this time we all can really be proud as Singaporeans!
Also, am not surprised that our highly paid people in the Ministry of Home Affairs had issued a statement in the St today (17/1/2004), stating that "i do not know-------------execution rate ---is shrouded in secrecy." Even our Prime Minister who is supposed to be the No. 1 man did not know the execution rate in his own country when he spoke to the press last year.
i think that Amnesty International claims are actually more than fair and am sure they had not considered about 100 foreign workers and maids that had losts their lives in "serving" our country each year. The government, for some reasons, had so far refused to take actions against these employers.
So let us start a campaign, lobby our MP's for a start, against not only the death penalty but also bring the employers to full justice for the death of their employees from the 3rd world countries!!! -
The difference is this: In Singapore I doubt you make mistakes like in America, sending Blacks to death because the judge is a white dude and stuff with juries. In Singapore you only die if you need to die... i think.
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a mi tou fu
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yea.. at least singapore there isn't an outright racist thingy.
u hv quite a fair trial.. and u only deserve to die when u deserve to die.
unless u suay suay keena frame until super cham, where all evidences are piled against you. -
the death sentence is a necessity.
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i agreeOriginally posted by nismoS132:the death sentence is a necessity.
under circumstances of coz.. -
Is the death sentence really necessary ?Originally posted by nismoS132:the death sentence is a necessity.
If it is to serve as a deterrent for the many offenses that this sentence is supposed to strike fear on would be offenders, it has not serve its intended purpose.
Drug traffickers continue to ply their trade through Singapore, with other criminal offenses that carry the death penalty still being committed - these would include kidnapping, murder, offense with fire arm (especially when the gun is fired).
Some may add that it has served its purpose with the relatively fewer occurrences of such serious crimes in Singapore, compared to neighboring countries.
However, one has to look at such criminal occurences by comparing the size of the population with the size of the country concerned.
It was a surprise when it was discovered that Singapore - (being a relatively small country with a smaller population, when compared to the neighboring countries, has a very high density of people) - will in actual fact have a higher level of crime committed when compared to the neighboring countries.
We will need to ask if the 'Death Sentence' has served its intended purpose of preventing the serious crime from being committed, or is the 'Death Sentence' an avenue to satisfy the innate animal instinct within us, to seek vengeance through legal sanctions.
The 'Death Sentence' as applied in Singapore remains as gory as it has been executed for the last 100 years, by hanging, which breaks the neck, suffocating the person till all Life is no longer in the body.
Could we not execute the Death Sentence in a more humane and civilized manner, by chemical injection to extinguish a Human Life ? -
and what would you consider a better substitute for capital punishment? life imprisonment?
is it necessary to spend all that money, to provide for one that has already been condemned to be away from society for eternity? in another, wouldn't be more humane to end his suffering now than later?
many of the arguments against capital punishment for murder lie on the fact that not everyone kills with intent, that they are often driven by emotion. in such cases, it is arguable that the murderer could be let off the loop with a 10-20 year sentence. but in cases of drug smuggling, kidnapping, murder with intent, where the sole purpose is to profit off of people's misery, i believe that death is a just reward.
is it really necessary to live with the western (and often christian) ideology that every sin is forgivable, every man is redeemable?
justice, at it's very origins, iss just another way of saying "an eye for an eye". -
The concept of hanging is deemed suitable more as a deterant rather than a humane sentence. Even the idea of hanging seems morbid to anyone on death row.
Sure lethal injection may be a better method but it may not be viable in singapore. I dun condone hanging but at the moment, there isn't a convincing alternative.
This section deviates from the topic a little...for those who think our legal is just and efficient, does any of you recall the expat who rammed the korean family, killing the mother and ther two children? However did she get acquitted? Not a shred of blame fell on her shoulders...is that justice?
The korean father, later interviewed, expressed supreme disappointment with the decision, saying that even if his family was mainly at fault, the expat should also shoulder some blame. And it is this aspect of reasoning that i agree totally with.
Damn! Even i think i should send some inconsiderate jaywalkers into orbit sometimes, but drivers have an obligation to exercise due caution, especially on the road, more so if it's raining (as in the case of the korean family)...
In the end, i still think a jury system gives a more satisfactory verdict than a judicial commissioner or a downright judge -
Very Good Points raised by Atobe and BillyBong, Putting a person to death is not the solution as proven in Singapore and all the other countries that carries out the death sentence. If the death penalty is really effective than surely our crimes should also decline! But this is not so and the truth is that we have an advanced levels of crimes in contrast to other countries, in terms population density.
How else can one view the case mentioned by Billy Bong, or the Michael McCrea's case, are these not discrimination?
Even our Chief Judge can be wrong, as proven in a recent case, so how can we be sure that all the people he and his merry men had sent to the death are really “guilty”?
If we Singaporeans are actually Human Beings, than the monetary aspects to educate our prisoners should not be an issue.
An Eye for Eye’ or a ‘Tooth for Tooth’ has no place in our civilized society, if we really want develop our Humane qualities then we have to note that Hatred will only cease by Love as shown in History, No other short cuts, This is the Eternal Law! -
The death penalty has its' gastly role and place in response to crime...
Personally however, I feel that in the context of Singapore... we are certainly somewhat liberal in dishing it out with all the grace of a bull in a china shop. And of course, there's a serious lack of checks and balances to make sure that some hapless fellow does not get stringed. It seems that in Singapore, with our virtual "guilty unti proven otherwise" system, combined with the death penalty is a volatile combination.
For drug offences... killing off some drug runner isn't going to help the problem in Singapore (especially when a large amount of it is gotten through by those stupid and brave enough to try). More punitive measures that hit harder to a person's general quality of life rather then ending it may be the way to go... -
Whenevr I see this topic, I am always reminded of warning sign posted at low ceilings or kow hanging protruding concrete....Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:The death penalty has its' gastly role and place in response to crime...
Personally however, I feel that in the context of Singapore... we are certainly somewhat liberal in dishing it out with all the grace of a bull in a china shop. And of course, there's a serious lack of checks and balances to make sure that some hapless fellow does not get stringed. It seems that in Singapore, with our virtual "guilty unti proven otherwise" system, combined with the death penalty is a volatile combination.
For drug offences... killing off some drug runner isn't going to help the problem in Singapore (especially when a large amount of it is gotten through by those stupid and brave enough to try). More punitive measures that hit harder to a person's general quality of life rather then ending it may be the way to go...
MInd Your Head!!!
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shows that the police are doing their job
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While I would like to succumb to my animal instinct to agree with you - that the 'Death Sentence' is preferred to 'Life Imprisonment' - it is too easy a way out for myself.Originally posted by nismoS132:and what would you consider a better substitute for capital punishment? life imprisonment?
is it necessary to spend all that money, to provide for one that has already been condemned to be away from society for eternity? in another, wouldn't be more humane to end his suffering now than later?
many of the arguments against capital punishment for murder lie on the fact that not everyone kills with intent, that they are often driven by emotion. in such cases, it is arguable that the murderer could be let off the loop with a 10-20 year sentence. but in cases of drug smuggling, kidnapping, murder with intent, where the sole purpose is to profit off of people's misery, i believe that death is a just reward.
is it really necessary to live with the western (and often christian) ideology that every sin is forgivable, every man is redeemable?
justice, at it's very origins, iss just another way of saying "an eye for an eye".
'Life Imprisonment' is just as cruel to the person incarcerated for the rest of his/her Life - without any 'short circuit' of justice of being released after 20 years as practised in UK and USA.
Life imprisonment will mean incarceration for the rest of one's Natural Life.
This will allow time for the offender to reflect on the murderous actions committed, which extinguishes someone else's Life.
Does it help anyone emotionally or psychologically, if one legally extinguishes the Life of a person, as punishment for the act of taking someone else's Life ?
Money is already spent to build an effective gallow that will ensure the punishment act of hanging will be definite and cleanly executed to end the life of the condemned.
Anyone who is able to survive the hangman's noose, will not be put through the punishment a second time, and the punishment will be commuted to a Life Sentence.
If the Death Sentence has to be made effective, no one will escape the chemical dose that will certainly be more effective in overwhelming any physical resistance of the body.
In a country when the Death Sentence is so quickly and pervasively applied as punishment - (for Capital Criminal Offense of Murder, Drug Trafficking, and Arms Offenses) - the punishment is quick and final; and leaves no opportunity to right any injustices when more information and truth is discovered at a later date.
In a judiciary system that is dependent on the observation of the District and High Court Judges - sitting alone in court; and the Appeals Court and Supreme Court - (sitting as a panel of Judges - some of whose decision is dependent on their breakfast consumed and workloads of the Court ), can a condemned person be given a fair hearing, when so much depend on the personal and subjective standards of human experience of these Judges - however learned and trained they may be ?
In a judiciary system that does not recognised its own declared rule that the ACCUSED is presumed INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY, and INSIST that the ONUS of PROVING ONE'S INNOCENCE rests with the accused, can justice be practised here ?
Is "forgiving someone" an act of charity only peculiar to Western social norms and Christian Religious thinking only ?
Is Western social norms synonymous with Christianity ?
Such a statement belittle the social norms of older civilizations from the East, and the mature religions of Hinduism, Sikhism, Islam, Buddhism, Taoism - (all of which existed before Christianity as we know it today) - and any other religions that may have been inadvertently missed.
Our society has achieved the high standards of the First World, but has our social and cultural standards developed in tandem with our economic achievements ?
Have we remained mired in the survival thinking of the Third World, living constantly in a 'Dog-eat-Dog' environment, where gracefulness is non-existent, knee jerk 'skull breaking action' is the norm towards any opposing views, where the last pound of flesh must be extracted for justice to be carried out ?
An 'eye for an eye' ?
This is the practise demanded in the extreme fundamentalist world of the Talibans.
Is it good justice being practised on the principle of an 'eye for an eye' ?
What is 'Justice' ?
The dictionary define it as:-
The quality of being just; fairness.
The principle of moral rightness; equity.
Conformity to moral rightness in action or attitude; righteousness.
The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law.
Law. The administration and procedure of law.
Conformity to truth, fact, or sound reason
The word 'Justice' as elaborated further in the Thesaurus will include the following words, and my choice are shown as colored in 'Blue' and the 'Red' being the emphasis for what Justice must be :
amends, appeal, authority, authorization, charter, code, compensation, consideration, constitutionality, correction, credo, creed, decree, due process, equity, evenness, fair play, fair treatment, fairness, hearing, honesty, impartiality, integrity, judicatory, judicature, justness, law, legal process, legality, legalization, legitimacy, litigation, penalty, [color=red]reasonableness, recompense, rectitude, redress, reparation, review, right, rule, sanction, sentence, square deal,[/color] truth
Websites of the Hung: Was Justice Done ?
http://www.thinkcentre.org/article.cfm?ArticleID=1125
http://www.thinkcentre.org/article.cfm?ArticleID=818 -
u know, it is not only Christian. I recently did a web search and found out that all the major religions in the world are against the death penalty: Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and even Taoism. so there. out of these, the last three are certainly Eastern Religions. All religions have certain similar basic concepts, whether western or eastern, and these include forgiveness for sins.Originally posted by nismoS132:and what would you consider a better substitute for capital punishment? life imprisonment?
is it necessary to spend all that money, to provide for one that has already been condemned to be away from society for eternity? in another, wouldn't be more humane to end his suffering now than later?
many of the arguments against capital punishment for murder lie on the fact that not everyone kills with intent, that they are often driven by emotion. in such cases, it is arguable that the murderer could be let off the loop with a 10-20 year sentence. but in cases of drug smuggling, kidnapping, murder with intent, where the sole purpose is to profit off of people's misery, i believe that death is a just reward.
is it really necessary to live with the western (and often christian) ideology that every sin is forgivable, every man is redeemable?
justice, at it's very origins, iss just another way of saying "an eye for an eye".
For the Death penalty, although many Justice systems don't consider this a detail worth investigating, there are certain motives for killing. Motives include anger and resentment, and obviously these have causes. hence, a more effective way of preventing murder cases from occurring is to tackle these root concerns.
The Death penalty is merely a tool of revenge. and just as the victim's family is not allowed to kill the murderer either, neither is the State justified. Are the judges any more pure than the victims' family members?
the pikamaster
I wholeheartedly support an appeal to those countries who at present employ the death penalty to observe an unconditional moratorium. At the same time we should give more support to education and encourage a greater sense of universal responsibility. We need to explain the importance of the practice of love and compassion for our own survival and to try to minimize those conditions which foster murderous tendencies, such as the proliferation of weapons in our societies. These are things even private individuals can work towards.
-His holiness the Dalai Lama
btw, im catholic. -
its not a perfect world...
personally, i'll prefer that a jackass drug trafficker that comes into changi and gets caught with a suitcase of dope hangs. there really shouldn't be two ways about it. (lets not get into the "lets legalise pot" argument)
also, premeditated murder ought to be punished by death. the very act of taking a life after careful consideration, without regards for consequences and usually for selfish, evil ends should be punishable by death. no less.
kidnapping... the apex of lawlessness. they ought to be hanged too. think about the repentant criminals? think about the state of society that sanctions executions? i say: think about the victims.
if as some say, keeping the death penalty is not improving the situation, and crimes remains high and it has lost its deterrent value, would doing away with it improve society?
heck no... if the death penalty is to ever be abolished, it should be bacause society has evolved to a point where violent crimes no longer exists. and the death penalty is rendered redundant, considered a relic of a barbaric past... only then, can state sponsored murder be also abolished.
we do not improve society by abolishing the death penalty. we abolish the death penalty WHEN society improves... and does anyone really see society becoming enlightened, non violent and peace-loving overnight? -
Originally posted by CX:
You sound extremely cruel. In fact, u sound like someone who would hang his friend because the friend took a pencil away from him.
its not a perfect world...
personally, i'll prefer that a jackass drug trafficker that comes into changi and gets caught with a suitcase of dope hangs. there really shouldn't be two ways about it. (lets not get into the "lets legalise pot" argument)
also, premeditated murder ought to be punished by death. the very act of taking a life after careful consideration, without regards for consequences and usually for selfish, evil ends should be punishable by death. no less.
kidnapping... the apex of lawlessness. they ought to be hanged too. think about the repentant criminals? think about the state of society that sanctions executions? [b]i say: think about the victims.
if as some say, keeping the death penalty is not improving the situation, and crimes remains high and it has lost its deterrent value, would doing away with it improve society?
heck no... if the death penalty is to ever be abolished, it should be bacause society has evolved to a point where violent crimes no longer exists. and the death penalty is rendered redundant, considered a relic of a barbaric past... only then, can state sponsored murder be also abolished.
we do not improve society by abolishing the death penalty. we abolish the death penalty WHEN society improves... and does anyone really see society becoming enlightened, non violent and peace-loving overnight?
[/b]
with regards to drugs, how many pple coming into the country with more than 15g of heroin are actually traffickers? DO the authorities know? no, they do not. thus, the Death penalty is given to ALL these "criminals". Seriously, how moral can this be?
As for society becoming blablabla, i think an essential point which many of us have forgotten (and the Dalai Lama has reminded us) is that Education is still the best Prevention. To perpetuate the Death penalty is the same as avoiding the issue of WHY the crimes actually happen, the causes behind them. In essence, it is like shedding crocodile tears over spilt milk.
Make no mistake.
the pikamaster -
the world is cruel..not us..Originally posted by pikamaster:You sound extremely cruel. In fact, u sound like someone who would hang his friend because the friend took a pencil away from him.
with regards to drugs, how many pple coming into the country with more than 15g of heroin are actually traffickers? DO the authorities know? no, they do not. thus, the Death penalty is given to ALL these "criminals". Seriously, how moral can this be?
As for society becoming blablabla, i think an essential point which many of us have forgotten (and the Dalai Lama has reminded us) is that Education is still the best Prevention. To perpetuate the Death penalty is the same as avoiding the issue of WHY the crimes actually happen, the causes behind them. In essence, it is like shedding crocodile tears over spilt milk.
Make no mistake.
the pikamaster
i take it as a joke about the pencil issue..seem that to you drugs is not a problem on this world?
so to you the problem is the execution of a druglord?
how do you know those who bring in 15g of heroin are not traffickers? do u know?
i guess its high time for you to educate the CNB or CID on this issue
can u educate a serial killer?
its just a pencil...
unless u think stealing is as bad as drugs trafficking? -
i agree with you that life imprisonment is just as bad as the death sentence.
but i do not agree that it should be removed. as CX had duly pointed out, just because it may have lost its effect as a deterrent, does not mean it is to be abolished. a punishment is still a punishment, and a harsh crime deserves an equally harsh punishment.
to be fair to the criminal, is to be unfair to the victim(s). -
it is not ONLY christian. the point i'm saying is that western civilization was founded on christianity.Originally posted by pikamaster:u know, it is not only Christian. I recently did a web search and found out that all the major religions in the world are against the death penalty: Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and even Taoism. so there. out of these, the last three are certainly Eastern Religions. All religions have certain similar basic concepts, whether western or eastern, and these include forgiveness for sins.
while it is true that most religions in the word ask for compassion and forgiveness, it is mainly in the west where the state was ruled by religion, laws and regulation was set by the church, and their ideologies remain; which is to hate the sin, not the sinner.
while buddhism and shintoism may have been big back in ancient china and japan (i cannot be sure of others), it is rare for religious leaders to hold sway over matters concerning the people.
i do not belong to any faith, nor believe in the existence of any omnipotent being. -
U know how much is 15g ? is actually quite substantial since the purity level on the drug for sale is actually quite low. It may be able to develop into a kg of salable drug. And tis fact is very well known among fellow drug abuser, thus they will try to avoid carrying more than 15g at one time. As such, it seems to be quite effective in determining if u r trying to sell it or u r trying to buy it. Buyers will buy in small doses at one go, traffickers trying to get drugs from overseas have to risk carrying such amount.
Anyway hanging is not inhumane... they tied weights on your feet thus ensure instant death. And the cause of death is not due to suffocation but a broken neck.
If education can reform prisoners, then there wouldn't such things as repeat offenders. In fact, there would not have a need to have prison at all. We might as force them to go for school while living in the comfort of their house. It is good to try, but thinking it can replace punishment is futile.
Thinking about the loopholes of judges, I need to say something. Before the case is presented to be held, there must have substantial evidence from Investigators that points to his guilt. If not, it would already be swiftly rejected by the Public Prosecuters before the hearing. This explained the notion of Innocent Unless Proven Guilty which we took from British laws.
About the possibility of errors made by Judge, this cannot be helped. Which country doesn't have such errors being committed ? Even established countries like US and British have many such cases too. -
BTW... those who kill without intent r charged with Culpable Homicide not amounting to murder, which means the worst punishment u can ever get is not the death penalty
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Originally posted by pikamaster:
drug trafficking: Death
You sound extremely cruel. In fact, u sound like someone who would hang his friend because the friend took a pencil away from him.
murder: Death
kidnapping: Death
these are the crimes i've brought up. theft of a pencil doesn't seem to be one of them. i dunno how u came up with your "pencil" analogy, but i'm sure its obviously not from my post.
let me put it to u another way. instead of a pencil, lets make it say... a loved one who was cruelly taken away from u by drugs, by a murderer, by a kidnapper.
truly speaking, corporal punishment won't bring a person back. but i'll be damned if u think i'll be satisfied to see that muthaphucker suffer anything less than death.with regards to drugs, how many pple coming into the country with more than 15g of heroin are actually traffickers? DO the authorities know? no, they do not. thus, the Death penalty is given to ALL these "criminals". Seriously, how moral can this be?
what is a trafficker to u? the gang boss sitting in the comfort of his villa in the golden triangle? the "middle man" who "imported" the stuff? the "mule" who "transported" the stuff? or an addict who just happened to be "carrying" a lot of the stuff?
to me, they all are. and if they could be caught, they should all be hanged if they happened to be carrying more than 15g of the stuff. but we can't get to them all. so we do our best by getting those we can which are, fortunately or unfortunately, the "mules", who're mostly dumb bastards who're greedy for money or were forced into it by debts or addiction.
but why split hair? laws are functional in their simplicity. they ought to be applied strictly, evenly and without exceptions, except when something really bizarre comes up and conventional intepretations don't apply.
what's so bizarre about a "mule" who was recruited and paid to undertake the risk of carrying bags of dope in his/her stomach?As for society becoming blablabla, i think an essential point which many of us have forgotten (and the Dalai Lama has reminded us) is that Education is still the best Prevention. To perpetuate the Death penalty is the same as avoiding the issue of WHY the crimes actually happen, the causes behind them. In essence, it is like shedding crocodile tears over spilt milk.
does education REALLY prevent crimes? the flip side of it would tell u that education breeds more intelligent criminals. truth be told, the only criminals u see are usually those dumb enough to get caught.
really smart ones know what's in store for them if they do... they've weighed the pros and cons and decided to do it anyway so they take pains to cover their tracks and think of their cover story.
they may still get caught eventually... but are u gonna let them off just cos they're smart and educated?
i won't deny that crimes occur for many reasons and the "root" of it is usually complex and has little bearing on punishment. but i say the issues have to be managed in its entirety.
we are not avoiding the issue by having harsh laws or the death penalty. we are just taking a more comprehensive approach to a complex problem: by both persuasion AND coercion. -
kkk
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you are really mocking the education system here. perhaps, this is an indication of how much Teo and Tharman have screwed up our local education system...Originally posted by CX:does education REALLY prevent crimes? the flip side of it would tell u that education breeds more intelligent criminals. truth be told, the only criminals u see are usually those dumb enough to get caught.
really smart ones know what's in store for them if they do... they've weighed the pros and cons and decided to do it anyway so they take pains to cover their tracks and think of their cover story.
they may still get caught eventually... but are u gonna let them off just cos they're smart and educated?
i won't deny that crimes occur for many reasons and the "root" of it is usually complex and has little bearing on punishment. but i say the issues have to be managed in its entirety.
we are not avoiding the issue by having harsh laws or the death penalty. we are just taking a more comprehensive approach to a complex problem: by both persuasion AND coercion.
but anyway, the education im talking about is not what you may be thinking of. I am talking about MORAL EDUCATION, and one that goes right down into the heart. the problem with our current CME is that Moral Knowledge is taken as sth else that can be stuffed into young minds and make them better.
and what is the cause? ironically, it is what allegedly gives us racial and religious harmony: secularism. One thing that religion does that any law, no matter how perfect it is, cannot do, is to give the person a fear of supernatural consequences or a desire to be elevated to teh same level as a supernatrual deity. Either way would be more effective in preventing crime than any law could. the religion im talking about here is not any cults or religious extremists. Im talking about the Establishments, like true CHristianity, Pure Islam and Hinduism and Buddhism.
you talk about treating issues in their entirety. well, the Death Penalty does not treat ANY issue in entirety. it is a quick means of evasion from the root causes. Haven't you read what our dearest Mr WOng Kan Seng said? He said," the death penalty has prevented crimes from happening." in other words, to him, the Death penalty is the miracle cure for every ill. n obviously, he is very flawed in his reasoning. By pushing the Death Penalty to resolve any social ill, the policymakers are in effect shirking responsibility for nto solving the ills properly.
perhaps, i need to remind you of the proverb: prevention is better than cure.
the thoroughly disappointed pikamaster