singapore No.1 in EXECUTIONS
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Originally posted by pikamaster:
and what the heck has that got to do with the death penalty again? pretty much nothing.
CX,
I happen to know that most presidents are PAP members, including Mr Nathan. The only non-PAP President was Mr Ong Teng Cheong and he had ALOT of problems even obtaining the defence information of Singapore.And i also know that PAP members are "encoursged" to toe the party line. Before parliamentary sittings, the MPs have a meeting of sorts to understand the new laws that are going to be passed.
all politicians everywhere do that... the problem in singapore is not that we have politicians who horse-trade and do quid pro quos, but that there isn't an equally powerful opposition capable of blocking that... and if there were, i'll bet u money that they'll be horse-trading and scratching each other's backs too.
anyway, i've said before that it obscures the issues when u lug in politics and start bitching about how imperfect the PAP autocracy is. screw that. stick to the topic. DEATH PENALTY.the non-brainwashed pikamaster
not being brainwashed is not about arguing for one position to the extreme exclusion of all compromises and resolution. that just makes u a bigot. YOUR way isn't the only way and it remains to be seen if your "enlightened" ideas really work in reality... care to cite some case studies? kinda boring to just hear broad visions.
repentance? well, until a time when we can qualitatively measure that, i say the interests of the law abiding public ranks higher than that of hardened death-row criminals, just to take 2 extremes. -
yep...definitely not brainwashed. the second part of my post is from what i Heard on a visit to Parliament House and the first part is mentioned by quite a few International Agencies, including the USA Department of Foreign Affairs. so there!Originally posted by oldbreadstinks:non-brainwashed pikamaster?
the pikamaster -
You are being juz like our govt- only interested in form, not substance. of course i know we dun haf a Gestapo (though we do haf the ISD) adn definitely no concentration camps. (oh and by teh way, it's gas chambers disguised as showers.). This example is simply to prove the point that THE LAW IS NOT ALWAYS MORALLY RIGHT even though it is supposed to maintain social morals.Originally posted by CX:'ll give u that much: that legal doesn't mean right. but don't draw bizarre parallels between 2 cases that don't fit. do we have the Gestapo running around, imprisoning pple? do we have Brownshirts running around beating up pple? do we have concentration camps with showers disguised as gas chambers?
the pikamaster -
hmmm... i didn't know the law was suppose to uphold morals i thought it was just suppose to create an orderly societyOriginally posted by pikamaster:You are being juz like our govt- only interested in form, not substance. of course i know we dun haf a Gestapo (though we do haf the ISD) adn definitely no concentration camps. (oh and by teh way, it's gas chambers disguised as showers.). This example is simply to prove the point that THE LAW IS NOT ALWAYS MORALLY RIGHT even though it is supposed to maintain social morals.
the pikamaster -
aiya... he already decided that he knows all the answers even before he posted anything.
no point talking to him. go ahead boy, piss all over the gov't. piss all over the law. long live anarchism. -
Quote:
aiya... he already decided that he knows all the answers even before he posted anything.
no point talking to him. go ahead boy
CX or Cheapest Judge
Think before u appeal
u may get harsher penalty
Another Singapore NO 1 -
I only have to say next time please read the name carefully... Otherwise other people accuse me of sprouting rubbish for words I do not say.
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:I only have to say next time please read the name carefully... Otherwise other people accuse me of sprouting rubbish for words I do not say. i'm getting confused, is this ur fren?
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I don't know who tat guy is... is a real pain to have someone copying your nick ...
Hehehe... maybe I should change my name to oldbreadstink, SingaporeanTyrannosaur, nismoS123 or thinkaloud2004... long names r easy target for such mischief... -
your point is lost. could you please restate that in english?Originally posted by stupidissmart:I don't know who tat guy is... is a real pain to have someone copying your nick ...
Hehehe... maybe I should change my name to oldbreadstink, SingaporeanTyrannosaur, nismoS123 or thinkaloud2004... long names r easy target for such mischief... -
something i missed or something someone else misunderstood -
when the trap door is opened and the person falls through it, his spine is snapped by the rope around his neck from his own body weight. he is dead in the nano second. finished. no pain.Originally posted by Atobe:The 'Death Sentence' as applied in Singapore remains as gory as it has been executed for the last 100 years, by hanging, which breaks the neck, suffocating the person till all Life is no longer in the body.
Could we not execute the Death Sentence in a more humane and civilized manner, by chemical injection to extinguish a Human Life ?
death by hanging is in fact one of the most humane way for death sentence. -
someone is faking stupidissmart nick..the fake one is smartistupidOriginally posted by CX: something i missed or something someone else misunderstood -
Tell me, which is less cruel: drowning a cat or beating it to death?Originally posted by KamenRider:when the trap door is opened and the person falls through it, his spine is snapped by the rope around his neck from his own body weight. he is dead in the nano second. finished. no pain.
death by hanging is in fact one of the most humane way for death sentence.
the pikamaster -
i m not asking 4 anarchism. you are one who is living in the Qing Dynasty if you still think that. GRacious SOciety NOT EQUAL to anarchism.Originally posted by CX:aiya... he already decided that he knows all the answers even before he posted anything.
no point talking to him. go ahead boy, piss all over the gov't. piss all over the law. long live anarchism.
pple who believe that are those who fear change., Freedom is not equal to anarchism. Besides, we are not even talking abt freedom. we r talking abt the death penalty. n forgiving someone deos not lead to anarchism. Yes, of course, the murderer has to be punnished, but perhaps by a life sentence.
Juz because I dun like the death penalty does not mean that i treat every law as crap. definitely, i m not 1 hu would "piss over the law", since i recognize its intrinsic value.
n lucky for u, i m not as hardline leftist as some pple at SIntercom. u dare tosay that at SIntercom, n some pple will start f***king u off. so be careful wad u say, wherever it is...
the pikamaster -
pikamaster, please keep your cool, most of us respect you for your contributions. Do not fall into the trap and fall as low as some do!
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Australian denied rights in drug case: lawyer
i have just one question despite all that supposed "uncertainties" about inconsistencies in the "procedures" or questions of whether the evidence had been handled "properly"...
Age, Melbourne
January 30, 2004
By Mark Baker
Asia Editor
SINGAPORE
LAWYERS defending a Melbourne salesman facing execution on heroin smuggling charges in Singapore yesterday called for the case to be thrown out after accusing police of denying his legal rights and mishandling the drugs allegedly seized from him.
The Singapore High Court was told that 23-year-old Nguyen Tuong Van was denied access to consular help and was not informed of his legal rights before giving police interviews in which he admitted carrying the drugs.
Lawyer Isaac Tito said that despite police rules requiring prompt notification of embassies when foreign nationals were arrested, Nguyen had been forced to wait 20 hours before meeting an official from the Australian High Commission.
"They knew he was an Australian citizen, but they did not offer him consular access before interviewing him and they didn't tell him he was not obliged to answer questions," Mr Tito said in his closing submission to the trial. "This evidence should be excluded."
Nguyen has pleaded not guilty to carrying about 396 grams of heroin during a stop in Singapore while flying from Cambodia to Melbourne in December last year.
Under Singapore law, hanging is mandatory for anyone convicted of carrying more than 15 grams of heroin.
The defence team presented detailed arguments that the mandatory sentencing policy for drug crimes breached the country's constitution and international law by imposing "cruel and inhuman" punishment and by denying judicial discretion.
But they said the police treatment of Nguyen and the handling of the evidence against him made the prosecution case unsound and the prospect of the death penalty unthinkable.
Mr Tito said a package of heroin allegedly found strapped to Nguyen's back as he prepared to board a Qantas flight to Melbourne, and another recovered from his hand luggage, had not been handled according to narcotics bureau regulations.
When the alleged drug parcels were returned after later chemical analysis, one was heavier and the other lighter than initial records and no explanation was given for the discrepancies.
"The prosecution has failed to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the exhibits were properly handled," Mr Tito told the court.
He argued that even if the court were to convict Nguyen, it would be wrong to apply the death penalty given the irregularities in the prosecution case.
"No capital offence can be made if there is no reliable evidence about the weight of the drugs," he said.
But prosecutors said there was no evidence that the drug exhibits had been tampered with and said Nguyen had confessed to carrying drugs in further police interviews made after he met with consular officials.
The case is continuing.
just ONE question aside from all that judicial hanky panky and diplomatic obstruction.
did he, or did he NOT have more than 15 grams of heroin strapped to his back with masking tape?
cheese... pple sure like to split hair on the insignificant. -
What you are asking for only exist in an Utopian society. You did not put into the account of the complexity of the human nature.When a barrier is removed, in this case death penalty, criminals will take the opportunity to make singapore a drug transit point. MAfias will form to take the opportunity to wreak havok in our society knowing that they won't need to bear any consequences. Tax payers will have to pay more to keep this hardcore criminals to jail. Is this what you call a gracious society. Certainly sounds like arnachy to me. Dun gimme those political bulls hit. Ultimately to achieve peace you must have control.Freedom and full human rights are just some intellecture bulls hit that some "smart" people write to dictate the world. So don't tell me the crap about forgoing capital punishments. In the end when everybody is given full rights,everybody will infringe into each other's rights.Originally posted by pikamaster:i m not asking 4 anarchism. you are one who is living in the Qing Dynasty if you still think that. GRacious SOciety NOT EQUAL to anarchism.
pple who believe that are those who fear change., Freedom is not equal to anarchism. Besides, we are not even talking abt freedom. we r talking abt the death penalty. n forgiving someone deos not lead to anarchism. Yes, of course, the murderer has to be punnished, but perhaps by a life sentence.
Juz because I dun like the death penalty does not mean that i treat every law as crap. definitely, i m not 1 hu would "piss over the law", since i recognize its intrinsic value.
n lucky for u, i m not as hardline leftist as some pple at SIntercom. u dare tosay that at SIntercom, n some pple will start f***king u off. so be careful wad u say, wherever it is...
the pikamaster
One more thing, citicising somebody is simple. But to give a better solution is very difficult. So when somebody disagrees with your views, dun go around blowing off your steam.
Regards. -
Without going into the debate of the merits of the 'Death Penalty', it is very doubtful that by dropping the 'Death Penalty' there will be anarchy in Singapore.Originally posted by CenturionMBT:What you are asking for only exist in an Utopian society. You did not put into the account of the complexity of the human nature.When a barrier is removed, in this case death penalty, criminals will take the opportunity to make singapore a drug transit point. MAfias will form to take the opportunity to wreak havok in our society knowing that they won't need to bear any consequences. Tax payers will have to pay more to keep this hardcore criminals to jail. Is this what you call a gracious society. Certainly sounds like arnachy to me. Dun gimme those political bulls hit. Ultimately to achieve peace you must have control.Freedom and full human rights are just some intellecture bulls hit that some "smart" people write to dictate the world. So don't tell me the crap about forgoing capital punishments. In the end when everybody is given full rights,everybody will infringe into each other's rights.
One more thing, citicising somebody is simple. But to give a better solution is very difficult. So when somebody disagrees with your views, dun go around blowing off your steam.
Regards.
There is more then enough legislations - piled one over another - to ensure that anarchy WILL NOT HAPPEN in Singapore.
The 'SUPER' and 'ALL ENCOMPASSING' Legislation in the arsenal of legislations that the Government can use is the INTERNAL SECURITY ACT - that allow them to detain anyone without trial, for an indefinite length of time.
The Government has shown itself willing to use this legislation, and has no political qualms in using it.
Will the MAFIA dare to enter Singapore and test the will of the Singapore Government ?
There is more to the debate than succumbing to this widely instilled idea of domestic anarchy as an alternative to the established way of life in Singapore.
It capitalize on the fear of the people, by presenting only one part of the argument, promote the concept loud enough to form cliches for the easy acceptance and consumption of the simple mind.
It smells heavily of a self-serving political agenda that perpetuate the existing political system in Singapore. -
You can't be sure about that. look at the former ussr. Their Mafia still thrived , even with the KGB going around.And without a heavy deterence such as death sentence, how are you going to ensure that drug traffickers will not make singapore their transit point? And besides as i said, Are we willing to spend money to shut such a large amount of supposedly deathrow criminals for life? Why spend on our precious resources on such people when we don't even get to have pensions?
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About the internal security act, even places like America has implement in the form of the "patriot act". And the most recent use is to detain members of JI in singapore. If there is no ISA law, these JI members will be able to walk around freely after 2 days. When is the other time singapore has use ISA to hold people recently ?
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The problem is not that we have an ISA law... it is how it is used... or shall I say... abused...
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Originally posted by Atobe:
u are quite correct in saying that the one thing that Sg does not lack, is legislation... some will in fact argue that we are being suffocated by law and that it insults the intelligence of the average singaporean to have laws covering everything from littering and jaywalking to oral sex.
Without going into the debate of the merits of the 'Death Penalty', it is very doubtful that by dropping the 'Death Penalty' there will be anarchy in Singapore.
There is more then enough legislations - piled one over another - to ensure that anarchy WILL NOT HAPPEN in Singapore.
The 'SUPER' and 'ALL ENCOMPASSING' Legislation in the arsenal of legislations that the Government can use is the INTERNAL SECURITY ACT - that allow them to detain anyone without trial, for an indefinite length of time.
The Government has shown itself willing to use this legislation, and has no political qualms in using it.
there is indeed, a difference between a society where rule of law exists as opposed to one that rules BY law, which is what Sg looks to be.
but the very test of a law is not in its passing, but in its enforcement. and since we're talking about the death penalty, i think its not helpful to digress by talking about the ISA.
there has been tests to the judiciary's resolve to impose certain punishments... especially so when the cases involves foreigners. michael fay, flor contemplacion and a few others, especially when it involves australians, whose government is usually insistent that suspects will only be extradited if they do not face the death penalty. and the article i've posted above... drug trafficker with a pack of heroin strapped to his back, but already, a little storm brewing concerning procedures and the death penalty.Will the MAFIA dare to enter Singapore and test the will of the Singapore Government ?
i think there are valid fears of this... maybe not on the grand scale of the mafia taking over, but organised crime testing our resolve in there is profits to be made from it. in fact, it is already being tested. that's why u still have pple using changi airport as a transit point for drugs: because its connected and because it is believed that if u clear the draconian customs checks here, its easier the rest of the way.
There is more to the debate than succumbing to this widely instilled idea of domestic anarchy as an alternative to the established way of life in Singapore.It capitalize on the fear of the people, by presenting only one part of the argument, promote the concept loud enough to form cliches for the easy acceptance and consumption of the simple mind.
so what is the other part of the argument? do share. and what is the alternative?
It smells heavily of a self-serving political agenda that perpetuate the existing political system in Singapore. -
If my previous comments had included the merits and demerits of the 'Death Sentence' used for a variety of capital crimes - (as in kidnapping, murder, and fire arms offenses), and 'petty crimes' - (as in possessing 15 grams of 99 percent pure heroin), will it make any difference if the ISA and other legislations in the Penal Code is offered as an alternative to the 'Death Sentence' ?Originally posted by CX:u are quite correct in saying that the one thing that Sg does not lack, is legislation... some will in fact argue that we are being suffocated by law and that it insults the intelligence of the average singaporean to have laws covering everything from littering and jaywalking to oral sex.
there is indeed, a difference between a society where rule of law exists as opposed to one that rules BY law, which is what Sg looks to be.
but the very test of a law is not in its passing, but in its enforcement. and since we're talking about the death penalty, i think its not helpful to digress by talking about the ISA.
there has been tests to the judiciary's resolve to impose certain punishments... especially so when the cases involves foreigners. michael fay, flor contemplacion and a few others, especially when it involves australians, whose government is usually insistent that suspects will only be extradited if they do not face the death penalty. and the article i've posted above... drug trafficker with a pack of heroin strapped to his back, but already, a little storm brewing concerning procedures and the death penalty.
Personally, I am in favor of the 'Death Penalty' but have my reservations in the manner that the Law is implemented that does not allow the Justice System to exercise any leeway or discretions in it decisions and awarding punishment.
Even the present Chief Justice lamented that his hands are tied by current Legislations that require him to impose some harsh sentencing, despite his better sense of justice, as the punishment is mandatory as legislated by Parliament.
The Government - the Executive and the Judiciary - has certainly shown no lack in their will to implement the Law, and to ensure that the Law will be enforced - as can be seen in the following events that have been short listed.
Although there has been that instance of reducing by one stroke from the mandatory four strokes of the cane sentenced onto Michael Fay for his vandalising behaviour; this leeway was given by PM GCT, in deferrence to the President of the USA, and in the light that the offense was minor and did not result in the loss of life.
This is in contrast to the Singapore Government denial of appeal from the Indonesian President Suharto, when he appealed for the lives of the two Indonesian saboteurs, whose dastardly act of placing time bombs at MacDonald House along Orchard Road, during Konfrontasi, took the lives of two Singaporean women.
There had been another incident in which a Japanese woman was found guilty of murder and hanged in Singapore, despite the appeals of clemency from the Japanese Government.
The use of Changi Airport - (or Bangkok's Dong Muang Airport, or any other airports in this region) - by drug couriers as a transit, and the numbers arrested does not indicate it as a test of our resolve.
i think there are valid fears of this... maybe not on the grand scale of the mafia taking over, but organised crime testing our resolve in there is profits to be made from it. in fact, it is already being tested. that's why u still have pple using changi airport as a transit point for drugs: because its connected and because it is believed that if u clear the draconian customs checks here, its easier the rest of the way.
The fact that these couriers do not even attempt to pass through IMMIGRATION and CUSTOMS to enter Singapore, but to transit through Changi Airport for connection to an onward flight, will show the success in the promotion of our Changi Airport as a regional Air Hub for onward connectivity.
In my last post, which attracted your comment, I had indicated:-
so what is the other part of the argument? do share. and what is the alternative?
There is more to the debate than succumbing to this widely instilled idea of domestic anarchy as an alternative to the established way of life in Singapore.
It capitalize on the fear of the people, by presenting only one part of the argument, promote the concept loud enough to form cliches for the easy acceptance and consumption of the simple mind.
It smells heavily of a self-serving political agenda that perpetuate the existing political system in Singapore.
The Government has constantly build on this repeated line that domestic anarchy will be the only result if there are no draconian Laws, and had drummed this message repeatedly to justify the plethora of legislations to impose their rule onto Singapore Society.
This was observed in your post that -
there is indeed, a difference between a society where rule of law exists as opposed to one that rules BY law, which is what Sg looks to be.
Could there not be the other part in which society can be TRUSTED to grow and blossom graciously, WITHOUT the DISTRUST and SUSPICION of every way that society will move ?
Can a society grow to be more gracious when its leaders are not gracious enough to trust the better judgment of the members of society from which they come from ?
Does not the 'rule BY law' reflect the insecurity and distrust of the leaders towards the unpredictable human behaviour of the society that elected them ? -
Originally posted by Atobe:
well, i should think, yes, on all those counts. and truth be told, it isn't just the powers-that-be. i find it hard to trust my fellow citizen sometimes. don't u?
Could there not be the other part in which society can be TRUSTED to grow and blossom graciously, WITHOUT the DISTRUST and SUSPICION of every way that society will move ?
Can a society grow to be more gracious when its leaders are not gracious enough to trust the better judgment of the members of society from which they come from ?
Does not the 'rule BY law' reflect the insecurity and distrust of the leaders towards the unpredictable human behaviour of the society that elected them ?
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and u're absolutely right that human behavior is unpredictable and i don't think ANY power holder will ever feel 100% secure and trusting. the problem as u pointed out, is that they may be able to use laws to solidify their position.
there is a gap between intent and purpose. many things are not 100% clear cut and a law might be like that... kinda hard to implement laws that are "surgical" in both their intents and purpose don't u think?
we have the ISA that allows the authorities the leeway of indefinitely detaining individuals in situations where it will not be feasible to put them on trial. some would argue that it places unbridled power into the hands of irresponsible power holders.
we have libel laws, like any other civilised society with a legal system based on the British common law, but these same laws have been abused by politicians to discredit and destroy their opponents.
the problem isn't with the law... its with the pple who have chose to abuse it and exploit its loopholes. try as we might. it will still be an imperfect and clumsy device compared to the depths of human depravity and ingenuity.
the death penalty for instance, which i still believe, have a deterrence effect and is necessary in light of the fact that our society is so imperfect. others have said that it promotes a "quick-fix" mentality towards crime, which is essentially a "social problem". i don't buy that liberal take on crime, society and punishment.
call me an unenlightened asiatic barbarian if u want, but i just don't think that the larger law-abiding society needs to be "responsible" for the criminals of that society, when these criminals have been irresponsible towards society in the first place.
if mandatory sentancing is hampering the abilities of the judges to serve justice, then i would agree, in light of the fact that the world is growing increasingly complex, that the laws needs to be re-interpreted and probably refined to allow the judges more leeway.
but in crimes such as murder and drug trafficking, i frankly don't see a conflict.