singapore No.1 in EXECUTIONS
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The first place, how much of the judiciary and legistrative system do you know yourself? Unless you really know it hundred percent from the back of your hand, then it is possible for you to comment about it. Otherwise all it is, it is just a bunch of hoo haa from a few limited sources you have read.
Anyway , back to the topic, are you sure trafficking 15 grams of 99% pure heroin is just a petty crime? This 15 % could potentially ruin a person's life. And in the end what rights does the drug traffiker have to destroy a peson's life?
Death sentance is a deterence. It is supposed to allow the drug pushers to have second thoughts before entering our country. And please, stick to the topic, don't involve politics here. When it comes to politics, even the most perfect judiciary system becomes dirty. -
No, from your well thought out post, you can hardly be an 'unenlightened asiatic barbarian', and my sympathies are with your position on the lamentable human weaknesses - not necessarily limited to our Singapore experience.Originally posted by CX:well, i should think, yes, on all those counts. and truth be told, it isn't just the powers-that-be. i find it hard to trust my fellow citizen sometimes. don't u?
and u're absolutely right that human behavior is unpredictable and i don't think ANY power holder will ever feel 100% secure and trusting. the problem as u pointed out, is that they may be able to use laws to solidify their position.
there is a gap between intent and purpose. many things are not 100% clear cut and a law might be like that... kinda hard to implement laws that are "surgical" in both their intents and purpose don't u think?
we have the ISA that allows the authorities the leeway of indefinitely detaining individuals in situations where it will not be feasible to put them on trial. some would argue that it places unbridled power into the hands of irresponsible power holders.
we have libel laws, like any other civilised society with a legal system based on the British common law, but these same laws have been abused by politicians to discredit and destroy their opponents.
the problem isn't with the law... its with the pple who have chose to abuse it and exploit its loopholes. try as we might. it will still be an imperfect and clumsy device compared to the depths of human depravity and ingenuity.
the death penalty for instance, which i still believe, have a deterrence effect and is necessary in light of the fact that our society is so imperfect. others have said that it promotes a "quick-fix" mentality towards crime, which is essentially a "social problem". i don't buy that liberal take on crime, society and punishment.
call me an unenlightened asiatic barbarian if u want, but i just don't think that the larger law-abiding society needs to be "responsible" for the criminals of that society, when these criminals have been irresponsible towards society in the first place.
if mandatory sentancing is hampering the abilities of the judges to serve justice, then i would agree, in light of the fact that the world is growing increasingly complex, that the laws needs to be re-interpreted and probably refined to allow the judges more leeway.
but in crimes such as murder and drug trafficking, i frankly don't see a conflict.
As much as I can accept that human behaviour is totally unpredictable, I must still learn to live with my neighbors and adapt myself to their indiosyncracies - as much as they have to adapt to those that I have.
TRUST must still be encouraged, and built upon, as one has to do so when we will depend on each other in times of war - as NSF men, my life will be in your hands, as much as yours is in mine; as well as that of our offsprings, if they happen to serve together in the future. -
If we restrict our opinions until we 'really know it hundred percent', then you and I are no longer in any position to comment on any topic on this earth until we are trained and learned enough to ensure 'hundred percent' of any topics we intend to comment on.Originally posted by CenturionMBT:The first place, how much of the judiciary and legistrative system do you know yourself? Unless you really know it hundred percent from the back of your hand, then it is possible for you to comment about it. Otherwise all it is, it is just a bunch of hoo haa from a few limited sources you have read.
Are you in a position to do so ?
If not, what is your status in existing in this Forum ?
As a deterence, it seems to have limited effect, as after more then thirty years, groups of persons continue to be caught 'traffiking' in high quality drugs.
Anyway , back to the topic, are you sure trafficking 15 grams of 99% pure heroin is just a petty crime? This 15 % could potentially ruin a person's life. And in the end what rights does the drug traffiker have to destroy a peson's life?
Death sentance is a deterence. It is supposed to allow the drug pushers to have second thoughts before entering our country.
15 grams is about the weight of a 20 cent coin.
There are those who carry this amount for their own consumption, and have also been implicated to be couriers (or donkeys) - which will place them into the legal category that requires a mandatory death sentence.
Those who choose to be involved with drugs or its experimentation, have done so to ruin their own lives; as much as those who have chosen to be addicted to cigarettes.
POLITICS forms the core in all human activities.
And please, stick to the topic, don't involve politics here. When it comes to politics, even the most perfect judiciary system becomes dirty.
POLITICS is the art or science of government or governing, especially the governing of a political entity, such as a nation, and the administration and control of its internal and external affairs.
POLITICS are the methods or tactics involved in managing a state or government - which will include Legislations implemented by the Judiciary System.
Words that are synonymous to the word 'POLITICS' will include:-
boss-ism, campaigning, civics, domestic affairs, electioneering, foreign affairs, government, government policy, internal affairs, jungle, legislature, political science, statecraft, statesmanship, stumping.
The Judiciary is a part of the Government AND the Political System, to put the legislations into effect, to implement the rules of law. -
For drug trafficking, the point is that you might arrest an addict. As we know, addicts are usually forced by their addiciton to indulge in all kinds of crime to obtain their drugs. As in such, it is much better to rehab a Drug addict-cum-trafficker than to sentence him to death.Originally posted by CX:well, i should think, yes, on all those counts. and truth be told, it isn't just the powers-that-be. i find it hard to trust my fellow citizen sometimes. don't u?
and u're absolutely right that human behavior is unpredictable and i don't think ANY power holder will ever feel 100% secure and trusting. the problem as u pointed out, is that they may be able to use laws to solidify their position.
there is a gap between intent and purpose. many things are not 100% clear cut and a law might be like that... kinda hard to implement laws that are "surgical" in both their intents and purpose don't u think?
we have the ISA that allows the authorities the leeway of indefinitely detaining individuals in situations where it will not be feasible to put them on trial. some would argue that it places unbridled power into the hands of irresponsible power holders.
we have libel laws, like any other civilised society with a legal system based on the British common law, but these same laws have been abused by politicians to discredit and destroy their opponents.
the problem isn't with the law... its with the pple who have chose to abuse it and exploit its loopholes. try as we might. it will still be an imperfect and clumsy device compared to the depths of human depravity and ingenuity.
the death penalty for instance, which i still believe, have a deterrence effect and is necessary in light of the fact that our society is so imperfect. others have said that it promotes a "quick-fix" mentality towards crime, which is essentially a "social problem". i don't buy that liberal take on crime, society and punishment.
call me an unenlightened asiatic barbarian if u want, but i just don't think that the larger law-abiding society needs to be "responsible" for the criminals of that society, when these criminals have been irresponsible towards society in the first place.
if mandatory sentancing is hampering the abilities of the judges to serve justice, then i would agree, in light of the fact that the world is growing increasingly complex, that the laws needs to be re-interpreted and probably refined to allow the judges more leeway.
but in crimes such as murder and drug trafficking, i frankly don't see a conflict.
For other kind of traffickers, they should be rehabbed too, n probably made to pay compensation. HEAVY compensation, of course.
As for murder, i still think that the death penalty should not be meted out, juz in case non-incriminating evidence could be found later. AI has a story about a murder that happened in \England in 1978. The police did an extremely detailed investigation and found that all evidence pointed to one person, a 19 year-old boy. That boy was sentenced to death. So the case was laid to rest. Then, five years later, the housekeeper of the victim stumbled upon another piece of evidence, and this evidence proved the boy's innocence. The police, horrified at thier mistake, quickly compensated the boy's family and the judge himself gave a post-thumous declaration of teh boy's innocence. Obviously, it was too late. 2 years later, England dropped the Death penalty completely.
Like the Dalai Lama says, the Death Penalty is merely a shortcut for government to escape the real social ills. oh, n im ROman Catholic, not Buddhist. So, if you wish to prove me wrong, detail me a case of murder in Tibet. Surely, no Falun monk murders pple! in fact, its more of them getting murdered!
btw, ur pt on the irresponsibility...
it is our responsiblity to reduce and prevent crime in the nation. So you are essentially shirking responsibility if u heap the blame on the criminals purely. Remember, it takes 2 hands to clap.
the pikamaster -
15 grams is indeed the weight of a 20 cent coin.
However no one take drugs in their pure form. The concentration of the drug tat they take is very low, possible less than 1%. The question to ask is not about the weight, it is about how long can it sustains an average drug addict ? Fact is, such an amount will lasts a drug addict weeks. Drug addict know the drug abuse act more well than u and I do. If they r not drug traffickers, they will not carry on themselves more than 15 grams at any one time. Thus when people r caught with tat amount of drugs, most likely they r real drug traffickers.
Drug addict can be couriers, or donkeys. However, these couriers and donkeys r already helping with the distribution of drugs to the people. If they assist in making the drugs more accessible to the public, if they assist in making more people drug addicts, then too bad they had already done irrepairable harm and thus rightfully being labelled as drug traffickers. Drug addicters being forced into being drug trafficker just shows us the cruelty and seriousness of the problem of drugs. Everyone should know drugs can make fillial person murder their mothers, cowards be armed robbers and innocent girls into postitutes. Therefore we must try to reduce their infleunce as much as possible.
Anyway, most people are pressurised or facing stress in a certain area when they commit crimes. Thieves may be hungry and kidnappers may have a medical fees to pay for their mother. Can we pardon them all ? NO ! The number one reason why laws is in existence is to create an orderly society, where ones possession and well being is protected. Then will stability and growth be achieved.
Laws however do shows compassion too. In our legal system. It is called, ligitation. It cannot be used to wipe off the offence but it can be used to reduce the punishment of a certain offence. If a drug addict is really being forced by cicumstances, and he had fully coorporate with the police, then most likely he can be released from the death penalty.
About ISA, can someone enlightened me about the recent abuse of it by the Gov recently ? I mean the 90's and 20's. -
Originally posted by pikamaster:
addicts know better. we've mentioned before that they avoid carrying more than 12g cos they know its the death penalty if they get caught. furthermore, u gotta be a damned hardcore addict to snort 12g of pure heroin a day... most also cannot afford to carry so much. its not like going to Giant or Carrefour to "stock up" when u run out u know... they have a problem, they have an addiction, if they're willing to kick the habit, avenues ARE available to them. its really just a phone call, a reality check and a dose of methadone away. all it takes is the will to make the change.
For drug trafficking, the point is that you might arrest an addict. As we know, addicts are usually forced by their addiciton to indulge in all kinds of crime to obtain their drugs. As in such, it is much better to rehab a Drug addict-cum-trafficker than to sentence him to death.
For other kind of traffickers, they should be rehabbed too, n probably made to pay compensation. HEAVY compensation, of course.
BUT if they're resorting to trafficking to sustain their habits, i don't have any sympathy for them any more because it no longer just involves them. they are dragging others into the hole as well.
so... going by your reasoning, while society has to be responsible to the criminals it produces, criminals can just take solace in the reasoning that they are "forced upon" their life of crime and they have "no choice"??? that "addiction" deprives them of free will?
here's news for you: u drag an addict into rehab against his will, u force methadone down his throat and make him sweat and puke through his withdrawals until he kicks the habit, u let him out, and he'll go right back to the habit. THAT's free will for u. if they didn't CHOOSE to kick the habit, they won't.
and compensation? what is just compensation for trafficking narcotics? community service
? so they can go right back to do it again once they're set free? cos its no big deal and all u get is community service.As for murder, i still think that the death penalty should not be meted out, juz in case non-incriminating evidence could be found later...
thats why the onus is on the police to make sure they have enough evidence, and the judiciary to judge the evidence to ensure that it is sufficiently conclusive. i see your example as a case of sloppy police work and a rare exception. i don't see how locking a guy up for 20 yrs and letting him out after that saying 'sorry we got the wrong guy' is any better... he's just as ruined.Like the Dalai Lama says, the Death Penalty is merely a shortcut for government to escape the real social ills. oh, n im ROman Catholic, not Buddhist. So, if you wish to prove me wrong, detail me a case of murder in Tibet. Surely, no Falun monk murders pple! in fact, its more of them getting murdered!
dalai lama presents a religious viewpoint. amnesty international presents the liberal perspective. most of us here prefer to live in the real world and we all see the limitations of such arguments.
i don't agree that crimes are the result of society. i believe in free will. an individual can choose whether to do good, or evil. isn't that what the Judeo-Christian God gives to man? free will. u eat the forbidden fruit because why? temptation and free will. what's the role of society in it? don't make excuses. society shapes us, but we are who we choose to be and we choose what we want to do.btw, ur pt on the irresponsibility...
and how do we "reduce and prevent" crime? education as u mentioned before? maybe... but like i said, its open ended. religion? some will choose to be atheists and still not be crooks. by being civic minded and watch our for criminal activities? that is prevention and to a large extent, deterrent. because its ultimately based on the proper enforcement of the law.
it is our responsiblity to reduce and prevent crime in the nation. So you are essentially shirking responsibility if u heap the blame on the criminals purely. Remember, it takes 2 hands to clap.
the pikamaster
and of course i blame the criminals! is it fair that u heap collective guilt on society for the unlawful actions of a minority? why is it society's fault when someone breaks into my house and steals my property? why is it society's fault when an individual brings in a ton of narcotics? are YOU gonna compensate me for my losses if i get pickpocketed since YOU are part of this society which i live in and hence, at least partly to blame for my lost wallet???? should i blame myself for bringing my wallet outside the safety of my safe deposit box? what kind of society would THAT be?
its a very basic principle: u do the crime, u do the time. why bring "society" into it? if society has a role at all, it is to say in one loud voice that "WE HATE CRIME" and make sure that those who refuse to live by society's laws are properly dealt with, with capital punishment if necessary. -
haha... one of those rare times we actually agree on something... i'll drink to thatOriginally posted by Atobe:No, from your well thought out post, you can hardly be an 'unenlightened asiatic barbarian', and my sympathies are with your position on the lamentable human weaknesses - not necessarily limited to our Singapore experience.
As much as I can accept that human behaviour is totally unpredictable, I must still learn to live with my neighbors and adapt myself to their indiosyncracies - as much as they have to adapt to those that I have.
TRUST must still be encouraged, and built upon, as one has to do so when we will depend on each other in times of war - as NSF men, my life will be in your hands, as much as yours is in mine; as well as that of our offsprings, if they happen to serve together in the future.
though it is one thing to be a good neighbour (yes, we all try... its really sad to not know ANYONE living in your block since the nearest guy is quite literally, right next door...) and quite another to tolerate lawless, anti-social behavior.
and while i'm no pap stooge, its precisely because i pride myself as a decent, law abiding citizen that i have no patience for lawlessness that threatens the very fabric of this society which i so love and which my family lives in.
though i do find your points a little too politically loaded sometimes... gets a little old when one keeps hearing anti-gov't discourse coming from you. not that i haven't heard it before, or that i don't agree with some of it... just that it seems to be coming from you a lot
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Definitely a toast is in order.Originally posted by CX:haha... one of those rare times we actually agree on something... i'll drink to that
though it is one thing to be a good neighbour (yes, we all try... its really sad to not know ANYONE living in your block since the nearest guy is quite literally, right next door...) and quite another to tolerate lawless, anti-social behavior.
and while i'm no pap stooge, its precisely because i pride myself as a decent, law abiding citizen that i have no patience for lawlessness that threatens the very fabric of this society which i so love and which my family lives in.
though i do find your points a little too politically loaded sometimes... gets a little old when one keeps hearing anti-gov't discourse coming from you. not that i haven't heard it before, or that i don't agree with some of it... just that it seems to be coming from you a lot
On the last para of your post, I also will agree with you and sometimes feel if the situation in Singapore has got the better of me, or have I lost control of the environment that I find myself caught in, and the pervasive feeling of being overwhelmed and helplessness is frustrating.
It is unfortunate, but POLITICS cannot be avoided in almost any discussion, as the Ruling Party has pervasively politicised almost every Government bodies, Statutory Boards, Public Companies, and even the daily activities of our normal Lives.
My apologies for boring those with my repeated views - like yourself, who have avoided commenting on some of my posts - as I know that you have read those issues before (even if different, the tone remain the same), and may even have lived through the events that had occurred.
However, there are some in this Forum, who somehow have not experienced the events, being away for the better part of their Lives.
There are some, who have ignored Singapore events, and becoming interested in POLITICS only recently.
Some have short memory, and prefer to gloss over the serious faults, and accept the material gains.
There are also those who prefer the status quo, rather then face the challenges of an uncertain Future - similar to the analogy that you once made in some earlier posting, about the 'Frog in the Well'.
Then I am digressing completely now from the main topic in this thread. -
Its interesting to note our Government had failed to refute Amnesty International's accusations about the death penalty recently as reported in ST 31st January, especially the aspect that Singapore had 3 times the number of executions, relative to the size of its population. In other words, we are still Number ONE as cited in the United Nations report.
The Singapore Governemnt's statement / rebuttals issued had not disputed this fact but had instead focussed on "minor" points! -
CX,Originally posted by CX:and how do we "reduce and prevent" crime? education as u mentioned before? maybe... but like i said, its open ended. religion? some will choose to be atheists and still not be crooks. by being civic minded and watch our for criminal activities? that is prevention and to a large extent, deterrent. because its ultimately based on the proper enforcement of the law.
and of course i blame the criminals! is it fair that u heap collective guilt on society for the unlawful actions of a minority? why is it society's fault when someone breaks into my house and steals my property? why is it society's fault when an individual brings in a ton of narcotics? are YOU gonna compensate me for my losses if i get pickpocketed since YOU are part of this society which i live in and hence, at least partly to blame for my lost wallet???? should i blame myself for bringing my wallet outside the safety of my safe deposit box? what kind of society would THAT be?
its a very basic principle: u do the crime, u do the time. why bring "society" into it? if society has a role at all, it is to say in one loud voice that "WE HATE CRIME" and make sure that those who refuse to live by society's laws are properly dealt with, with capital punishment if necessary.
as usual you obviously misunderstand me. I NEVER heaped any collective guilt on the society for the criminal's actions. of course crime is wrong. BUT I DO "heap the blame on society" for not doing the best it can to prevent crime in the first place. Education is not exactly open-ended. if it is, then you might as well say that whether or not one wants to learn a skill is dependent on oneself. That is true, of course, but that's what teh CE Act is for, isn't it? TO force people to do schooling. The problem with us is that our moral education system is as horrid as the rest of teh education, and our teachers aren't so moral either. So, the result is that students pick up bad morals and end up as criminals...\
n again, u misquoted my point on compensation. the compensation is what the CRIMINAL pays the VICTIM. In stealing for example, the thief would have to pay back say, twice the amount he stole. TODAY provided a very interesting example. A farmer caught for illegal logging was sentenced to planting 30000 more trees. BNot only is that a deterrent, but at the same time the farmer really gets to understand the impact of his crime. In the case of drug-trafficking, the Drug-trafficker could be made to watch addicts being rehbilitated and pay rehab fees for the addicts in rehab for a cerrtain period. There, isn't that a solution? this is what is called a reformative penalty. For murder, im not really sure, perhaps the murderer could pay for teh funeral expenses and keep visiting the grave year after year just like Dutch hit-and-run drivers do, to remind themselves how bad killing is. Naturally, they have to be kept under surveillance. the Death Penalty is mainly exacting vengeance for teh victim, and exacting vengeance is never moral. Plus, as I stated before, the murderer's family has to experience unnecessary grief. At the same time, does killing the murderer bring back the victim from the dead? No, not at all!
I was reading "Sunrise, Sunset" by the late Gopal Baratham last year. the story relates a man searching for the murderer of his fiancee, not to exact the Death Penalty on him/her, but just to find out the rationale for murder. If all victims' families would be like this man, then you can see how stupid the Death penalty really is. If you talk about positive effects, the positive effects are just like those of alcohol- a temporary uplifting of teh spirit. But it does not last forever. And in the end, the victim's family would still have to pass their lives without any help, and that is really bad. On the other hand, if the murderer were allowed to live, he could be asked to support the victim's family for teh rest of his life and be required by law to do it. In this case, both innocent parties- the victims' family and the murderer's family wun haf to suffer.
n btw, to ur first sentence, u should amend it to "...proper enforcement of the proper law".
n also, remember that "empty vessels make the most noise" and "actions speak louder than words". So if society only keeps groaning "we hate crime" but does nothing to remove it as good as possible, then it is totally useless. -
claudent,Originally posted by claudetnt:Its interesting to note our Government had failed to refute Amnesty International's accusations about the death penalty recently as reported in ST 31st January, especially the aspect that Singapore had 3 times the number of executions, relative to the size of its population. In other words, we are still Number ONE as cited in the United Nations report.
The Singapore Governemnt's statement / rebuttals issued had not disputed this fact but had instead focussed on "minor" points!
according to some news reports, govt officials have declared the figures relating to Amnesty's report "fake". Even the press has not been silent. Not long after the report, ST gave roughly 1/3 print area to a letter praising DPM Lee for his many "virtues". The letter warned Singaporeans about reading and being misled by information, and cited Amnesty's report as a "misleading report", urging Singaporeans to ignore it.
Anyway, I have kind of a nagging feeling that the government is actually PROUD that we are number one in having used such an "effective" method to keep crime low. n of ocurse, with the media feeding propaganda, it is doubtful that any normal SIngaporean would believe Amnesty anyway. Naturally, that is a blow to HR in Asia. In fact, I was shocked that ST carried a commentary in a recent newspaper praising Castro for the economic turnaround he brought about in Cuba. That articl is extremely disturbing, especially when we know Cuba is still very very poor. In fact, the article even suggested that CUbans re-elect Castro. The article did not even mention the amount of "disappeared" in Cuba or police torture etc. How horrendous!
n btw, could you pls be a little more active in this, your own thread? i find it peculiar that someone actually posts a topic and then ignores it entirely.
the pikamaster -
sometimes I cannot believe my patience...
TODAY provided a very interesting example. A farmer caught for illegal logging was sentenced to planting 30000 more trees. BNot only is that a deterrent, but at the same time the farmer really gets to understand the impact of his crime. In the case of drug-trafficking, the Drug-trafficker could be made to watch addicts being rehbilitated and pay rehab fees for the addicts in rehab for a cerrtain period. There, isn't that a solution? this is what is called a reformative penalty. For murder, im not really sure, perhaps the murderer could pay for teh funeral expenses and keep visiting the grave year after year just like Dutch hit-and-run drivers do, to remind themselves how bad killing is. Naturally, they have to be kept under surveillance. the Death Penalty is mainly exacting vengeance for teh victim, and exacting vengeance is never moral. Plus, as I stated before, the murderer's family has to experience unnecessary grief. At the same time, does killing the murderer bring back the victim from the dead? No, not at all!
30000 trees being replanted does repair all the harm tat it has done in the first place. Wat is more, tis is a petty crime where the impact is not tat significant.
Your example of punishment for drug trafficking, frankly speaking, is really ridiculous... made to watch addicts being rehabilitated... pay rehab fees for the addicts ... if tat is the punishment in singapore, then I will bring in 100 tons of drug tomorrow. Your stated punishment is soOooOOooo WEAK, it is laughable !
Why ? Firstly, it may be actually entertaining for some people to watch people wring in pain due to drug. I believe it is the addict tat is being punished here as they do not want anyone to watch them since it is humiliating ... Drug addicts cannot control their bowel movement and sh1t all over the place and they cried out all sort of things when they r cooling down. Second, paying for the rehab fees is CHICKEN FEET ! Even if the drug addict live in air con and eat haagen daas ice cream with shark fin soup, it is nothing compared with the lucrative money earned from selling drugs.
Paying for the funeral and visiting the grave every year... isn't tat just wat everyone had to do when their relatives is murdered ? Is tat even a punishment ?!?! Wat is the lost of a person being murdered ? The children may lose a mother, the family may lose the sole breadwinner and a wife may lost his love. Wat happened to the murderer? if he is rich, he get no punishment at all. His only punishment may be just going to a tombstone every year and take some time to piss there. Is tat your idea of moral ??!
Hey boy, u really have to wake up ! I was actually tolerant to u until tat ridiculous reply ! When I was your age, I wasn't even tat impractical in my suggestions ! Life is not perfect like in your pikachu cartoon, where bad guys look cute and r actually good guys who feel remorse and cry when they do something slightly bad. In real life, people KILL, cheat old poor granny's and bring in drugs to ruin many people lives just for MONEY ! Frankly, most of them WON'T even be remorseful after committing the act since they already PLANNED for it. -
sorry double post
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Originally posted by pikamaster:
the only thing "society" can do to prevent crime is for indiviuals to not commit them. and if u're dealing with individuals, who are diverse and hetrogeneous, what makes u think any ONE way (aka. your liberal dreamworld crackpot idea) can work?
BUT I DO "heap the blame on society" for not doing the best it can to prevent crime in the first place.Education is not exactly open-ended. if it is, then you might as well say that whether or not one wants to learn a skill is dependent on oneself.
i hate to repeat myself. there is no sure way for education to conclusively inculcate "morality". u can read the history of world war 2 and walk away either with a strong abhorrence of war, violence and totalitarianism, OR (and many do) become an admirer of hitler, nazism and become totally warped human beings with a warped perspective.
u can learn how to fix a car in an ITE and become a perfectly functional and productive member of society, OR u can use that knowledge to steal cars.
u can learn chemistry and work in the petro-chemical industry, or u can use that knowledge to make a bomb.
u can learn how to use a computer and write programs, or u can use a computer to write viruses and/or become a hacker.
u can be a lawyer and prosecute criminals, or u can be one that helps those who can afford to pay u get off on a technicality.
moral education can only do so much. if u get too preachy, pple (esp young pple) won't buy your nonsense as well. already, u get complaints that propaganda is stinking its way into the schools and kids are becoming robots. now u wanna "enforce" morality as well?
if u ask me, i say that schools shouldn't be teaching kids how to act ( what are parents for? its tragic that u think CME replaces good parenting ) and think ( it stifles creativity and intellectual diversity ). they should be facilitating growth in whichever directions the kid shows aptitude, talent or interests in. but thats another argument.
of course its all complex and open ended... get your simple mind used to it.n again, u misquoted my point on compensation... Plus, as I stated before, the murderer's family has to experience unnecessary grief. At the same time, does killing the murderer bring back the victim from the dead? No, not at all!
won't go into compensation... someone else already did the honours. capital punishment don't bring the back to life. but in a barbaric, uncivilised sorta way, it allows the surviving family the consolation of knowing that the perpetrators were justly punished for their crimes. and if something bad happened to me, or someone close to me, thats what i would want as well: no-nonsense justice.I was reading "Sunrise, Sunset" by the late Gopal Baratham last year. the story relates a man searching for the murderer of his fiancee, not to exact the Death Penalty on him/her, but just to find out the rationale for murder. If all victims' families would be like this man, then you can see how stupid the Death penalty really is...
we're not all like that. many still like to see criminals fry. hence, the death penalty is not stupid. its justice.
u can go chit-chat with the murderer all u want. i prefer crooks limp on a rope where they won't be doing any more harm and where others thinking of the same crime can see the limp cadavar and think twice.n also, remember that "empty vessels make the most noise" and "actions speak louder than words". So if society only keeps groaning "we hate crime" but does nothing to remove it as good as possible, then it is totally useless.
and u think that "taking responsibility" for it by removing the death penalty would solve the problem? look... as much as u may pride yourself to be a renaissance man and an enlightened youth, there are many out there who are NOT.
by eliminating the devices we have to deal with these pple who don't play by the same rules, society will deprive itself of the means to deal with these pple who do not see the world in the liberal enlightened way that YOU see it in.
watched "Demolition Man"? cheesy hollywood flick, but picture THAT. maniac from the past wrecks havoc on a sissy future that has no concept of violence, no death penalty and no means of stopping him.
and picture THIS: its real. there are those who will shove a knife in between your ribs and laugh in your face that they won't even go to jail for very long for doing it cos the law is too weak to deal with them. thank goodness for we know that such violent individuals hang when they're caught and convicted. -
comparative statistics can be deceiving. first of all, why compare? is there a basis for the comparison? who and what are u comparing with? how are u comparing it?Originally posted by claudetnt:Its interesting to note our Government had failed to refute Amnesty International's accusations about the death penalty recently as reported in ST 31st January, especially the aspect that Singapore had 3 times the number of executions, relative to the size of its population. In other words, we are still Number ONE as cited in the United Nations report.
The Singapore Governemnt's statement / rebuttals issued had not disputed this fact but had instead focussed on "minor" points!
could it be, first and foremost, that Sg is able to enforce its laws much better? or that Sg has much better records of these things? that one is REALLY sentanced and hanged, instead of just "disappeared" cos that wouldn't count towards the numbers executed.
i'm no apologist for the gov't, but i believe in choosing my battles. this happens to be one where i approve of the statistics and if anything is gleaned from it at all, its that we have a crime problem despite our reputation for being clean and safe and we have to be alert and keep up with our rigid enforcement.
inversely, i would ask myself questions too if stats were released that the crime rate has decreased. cos first of all, decreased in relations to WHAT? and what exactly do u mean by "crime"?
if u re-define your scope, u can play your figures in any directions u want. a "death-row inmate" is less open ended, but everything else isn't... all it takes is a good mathematician.
hee... kinda reminds u of our economic figures too doesn't it... what exactly does it mean to be "unemployed" or "gainfully employed" ?
but i digress... -
Originally posted by stupidissmart:
SOmetimes, I cannot believe MY patience.
sometimes I cannot believe my patience...
30000 trees being replanted does repair all the harm tat it has done in the first place. Wat is more, tis is a petty crime where the impact is not tat significant.
Your example of punishment for drug trafficking, frankly speaking, is really ridiculous... made to watch addicts being rehabilitated... pay rehab fees for the addicts ... if tat is the punishment in singapore, then I will bring in 100 tons of drug tomorrow. Your stated punishment is soOooOOooo WEAK, it is laughable !
Why ? Firstly, it may be actually entertaining for some people to watch people wring in pain due to drug. I believe it is the addict tat is being punished here as they do not want anyone to watch them since it is humiliating ... Drug addicts cannot control their bowel movement and sh1t all over the place and they cried out all sort of things when they r cooling down. Second, paying for the rehab fees is CHICKEN FEET ! Even if the drug addict live in air con and eat haagen daas ice cream with shark fin soup, it is nothing compared with the lucrative money earned from selling drugs.
Paying for the funeral and visiting the grave every year... isn't tat just wat everyone had to do when their relatives is murdered ? Is tat even a punishment ?!?! Wat is the lost of a person being murdered ? The children may lose a mother, the family may lose the sole breadwinner and a wife may lost his love. Wat happened to the murderer? if he is rich, he get no punishment at all. His only punishment may be just going to a tombstone every year and take some time to piss there. Is tat your idea of moral ??!
Hey boy, u really have to wake up ! I was actually tolerant to u until tat ridiculous reply ! When I was your age, I wasn't even [b]tat impractical in my suggestions ! Life is not perfect like in your pikachu cartoon, where bad guys look cute and r actually good guys who feel remorse and cry when they do something slightly bad. In real life, people KILL, cheat old poor granny's and bring in drugs to ruin many people lives just for MONEY ! Frankly, most of them WON'T even be remorseful after committing the act since they already PLANNED for it.
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would you have preferred it if i had quoted the punnishment as "make the trafficker hooked to drugs"? ur pt abt families visiting the grave is very ironic. dun you think the murderer's family will have to do the same as well? n plus, they have to shoulder a burden of guilt, esp. the children. then the children will grow up fuull of hatred and turn into murderers themselves!
abt lucrative money earnings, have you heard of Drug Lords. these are the big bosses who really earn the money while the dirty work of buying and selling drugs is done by their subordinates. so by executing the subordinates, you only make the Lord scoff at your ignorance. after all, he can simply hire new workers. n since he NEVER carries teh drugs with him, he CANNOT be hanged. What a law!
n logging is accompanied by fires that cause our horrid haze problem. n And you consider *that* "petty"?
the dissappointed pikamaster -
CX,Originally posted by CX:and u think that "taking responsibility" for it by removing the death penalty would solve the problem? look... as much as u may pride yourself to be a renaissance man and an enlightened youth, there are many out there who are NOT.
by eliminating the devices we have to deal with these pple who don't play by the same rules, society will deprive itself of the means to deal with these pple who do not see the world in the liberal enlightened way that YOU see it in.
watched "Demolition Man"? cheesy hollywood flick, but picture THAT. maniac from the past wrecks havoc on a sissy future that has no concept of violence, no death penalty and no means of stopping him.
and picture THIS: its real. there are those who will shove a knife in between your ribs and laugh in your face that they won't even go to jail for very long for doing it cos the law is too weak to deal with them. thank goodness for we know that such violent individuals hang when they're caught and convicted.
if I try to refute you, i'd be mocking myself.
From what you have posted, I can see that you are a real Freudian and legalist. You are one who dislikes the government apparently, but at the smae time, praises society for its many "virtues". you really come across as a hypocrite! your "picture" is a one-in-the-million case- it only happens if "those" pple have had totally warped childhoods and developed warped mindsets, like Castro and Hitler.
the pikamaster -
would you have preferred it if i had quoted the punnishment as "make the trafficker hooked to drugs"? ur pt abt families visiting the grave is very ironic. dun you think the murderer's family will have to do the same as well? n plus, they have to shoulder a burden of guilt, esp. the children. then the children will grow up fuull of hatred and turn into murderers themselves!
I will prefer things remain the same thank you.
abt lucrative money earnings, have you heard of Drug Lords. these are the big bosses who really earn the money while the dirty work of buying and selling drugs is done by their subordinates. so by executing the subordinates, you only make the Lord scoff at your ignorance. after all, he can simply hire new workers. n since he NEVER carries teh drugs with him, he CANNOT be hanged. What a law!
n logging is accompanied by fires that cause our horrid haze problem. n And you consider *that* "petty"?
If the person really cares for his children, he shouldn't have try to commit crimes punishable by death in the first place. The main objetive of death penalty is deterence. It will make much lesser people commit serious crime, thus in the end lesser children "shoulder a burden of guilt, grow up fuull of hatred and turn into murderers themselves" . In your childish example where when their family members get killed and the murderer went scot free. The murdered person's children will probably "grow up even more full of hatred due to the injustice they faced, thus grew up into a killer ninja seeking revenge. either tat or he becomes the avenger and rear killer pikachus " Now do u understand the picture ?
U really watch too much show about drug lords don't u... All we have to do is to find evidence that he is mastermind of the whole drug incident, and he will also be charged under the same offence and be hanged. This is true even though he did not laid his hand on any drugs. But then in your childish example, if the drug lord ever get caught he will just be given a tour of the drug rehab centre and give a token of appreciation to the centre. U think tat is better ?
Logging not necessary means he has to use fire isn't it
The offender is probably going to sell the wood he cuts. Why will he use fire then ? The below is gather from your posting from todayIn China, there was a case of a farmer who was caught for illegal logging and ordered to replant 30,000 trees, more than what he had cut down.
U waste my time. -
for the first case, one side faces injustice one way or the other. so there is no "lesser than the two evils" argument.Originally posted by stupidissmart:I will prefer things remain the same thank you.
If the person really cares for his children, he shouldn't have try to commit crimes punishable by death in the first place. The main objetive of death penalty is deterence. It will make much lesser people commit serious crime, thus in the end lesser children "shoulder a burden of guilt, grow up fuull of hatred and turn into murderers themselves" . In your childish example where when their family members get killed and the murderer went scot free. The murdered person's children will probably "grow up even more full of hatred due to the injustice they faced, thus grew up into a killer ninja seeking revenge. either tat or he becomes the avenger and rear killer pikachus " Now do u understand the picture ?
U really watch too much show about drug lords don't u... All we have to do is to find evidence that he is mastermind of the whole drug incident, and he will also be charged under the same offence and be hanged. This is true even though he did not laid his hand on any drugs. But then in your childish example, if the drug lord ever get caught he will just be given a tour of the drug rehab centre and give a token of appreciation to the centre. U think tat is better ?
Logging not necessary means he has to use fire isn't it The offender is probably going to sell the wood he cuts. Why will he use fire then ? The below is gather from your posting from today
in the case of logging, it is not stated that he was a commercial logger. in fact, he is a FARMER. logging simply means deforestation. And a farmer would want fertile land. so after clearing trees, he would burn the ground to make it fertile. haven't you learnt sec sch geog?
n u misunderstand me when you say "token of appreciation". obviously, the murderer would be under close scrutiny and FORCED to pay the amounts by the judiciary. He IS NOT scot free. AND "tour" is not teh corrent word to use. the trafficker will be FORCED to sit and watch under the eye of the POLICE. Clearly, he is not going to be sightseeing the rehab center, if that's what you think he is doing. ITS A PUNNISHMENT,GOT IT???
the pikamaster -
Originally posted by pikamaster:
u mock yourself by refusing you ignoramus. fact is, u can't.
if I try to refute you, i'd be mocking myself.From what you have posted, I can see that you are a real Freudian and legalist.
u don't know enough of what i'm saying to apply any labels on me.
freudian? freud says many things boy... which aspect of it are u talking about?
"freudian" indeed...
legalist? haha... not in the same vein as Li Ssu, but if u're suggesting that i think laws can solve some of society's pressing problems, and that there has to be clear distinctions between rewards and punishments, well DUH... that's not being a legalist, thats being a realist and a pragatist.
frankly, i don't buy any "ism" that seems overly neat and packaged... legalism, marxism or your childish brand of liberalism... they're all bollocks to me.You are one who dislikes the government apparently, but at the smae time, praises society for its many "virtues".
the "government" is not the same as the "society". despite all our flaws, i still enjoy the company of fellow citizens. i guess thats what one can call an "imagined community" ... i haven't met all 3 million + citizens, but i share an affinity and an identity with them. u gotta problem with that? take it up with the 3 million + singaporeans then.you really come across as a hypocrite! your "picture" is a one-in-the-million case- it only happens if "those" pple have had totally warped childhoods and developed warped mindsets, like Castro and Hitler.
kids... always resorting to personal attacks when they can't win in a civilised discussion. so much for the liberal approach to law and order... i wonder who's being a hypocrite here.
the pikamaster
one in a million case? if only that was true... and one is usually enough.
ONE man carrying in 100g of heroin will ruin a hundred lives.
ONE murderer killing for greed, vengeance or fun will cause a million tears.
and u are willing to tolerate "one" ? what gives u the right to? most here in this forum tolerates "zero".
conversely, your hair-brained ideas might also be said to be applicable "one out of a million" times. so what makes u so right in your grand opinion?
and you... all you can do, is talk of grand visions and vague theories which u have no tangible experience of outside your shallow readings and sling mud at all who disagrees with u. clown... -
for the first case, one side faces injustice one way or the other. so there is no "lesser than the two evils" argument.
Well then, the murderer children do have to visit their parents grave when they were hanged. However the question is, is visiting graves can even be considered as a punishment ? If tat is true, then when a murder has take place, the murderer had already start punishing all the victims relatives since they had to visit the victim's graves too. Can visiting graves be used to deter people from committing serious crimes like murder ? Your silly "murderer child theory" is nothing compared to the "victim child theory" so forget it !in the case of logging, it is not stated that he was a commercial logger. in fact, he is a FARMER. logging simply means deforestation. And a farmer would want fertile land. so after clearing trees, he would burn the ground to make it fertile. haven't you learnt sec sch geog?
Haiz... there is a farmer who cut down trees and sell them illegally. So is he still a farmer ? Let's say a female kills another and became a murderer, is she still a woman ? Unless u have proof he did burn down trees, then I can still say from the article tat he cut the trees, not burn them. I do not want to debate tis stupid issue on whether he got burn trees or not. I ask another question. Have u heard of haze problem in China ? Even if he did burn them, is tat a significant crime he committed ?n u misunderstand me when you say "token of appreciation";. obviously, the murderer would be under close scrutiny and FORCED to pay the amounts by the judiciary. He IS NOT scot free.
I thought u say they only had topay rehab fees for the addicts in rehab for a cerrtain period
Why suddenly it became a big fine ? Good news since u r coming closer and closer to being practical. For your info, rehab fees for addicts for a certain period of time is very cheap. Maybe more convincing will make u think of JAIL or DEATH sentence to adopt next.
I have said watching drug addict cooling off is ENTERTAINMENT for some people. Okie u r right, it is not a sightseeing tour. It is watching a live reality show tat is better than survivor . U happy now ? Com'on man ! Audiences r enjoying watching people eating worms and crawling in shit in fear factor, wat does a drug abuser cooling off means ? I just pity the drug addict as their humiliating moment is being enjoyed by both the "watchful" police and drug trafficker. So is tat a punishment ? Yup, to the drug addict tat is.
AND "tour" is not teh corrent word to use. the trafficker will be FORCED to sit and watch under the eye of the POLICE. Clearly, he is not going to be sightseeing the rehab center, if that's what you think he is doing. ITS A PUNNISHMENT,GOT IT???
Let me tell u one thing, YOUR IDEA OF PUNISHMENT IS SO WEAK THAT MY TOES R LAUGHING ! Get it ?
Well congrats to CX as u r free from replying to pikamaster. He has found himself a new sparring partner
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he's a waste of time... u're free to leave him to talk to himself if u like... nothing anybody says that makes any sense is getting through to him anyway... he'll rather live in his own dream world.
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just because you are a senior member does not mean you have the right to go around demeaning others just because they have a different opinion from you. i have tolerated you calling my ideas "crackpot" and so on, n have refuted ur arguments without using such language.Originally posted by CX:he's a waste of time... u're free to leave him to talk to himself if u like... nothing anybody says that makes any sense is getting through to him anyway... he'll rather live in his own dream world.
the pikamaster -
CX,Originally posted by CX:kids... always resorting to personal attacks when they can't win in a civilised discussion. so much for the liberal approach to law and order... i wonder who's being a hypocrite here.
one in a million case? if only that was true... and one is usually enough.
ONE man carrying in 100g of heroin will ruin a hundred lives.
ONE murderer killing for greed, vengeance or fun will cause a million tears.
and u are willing to tolerate "one" ? what gives u the right to? most here in this forum tolerates "zero".
conversely, your hair-brained ideas might also be said to be applicable "one out of a million" times. so what makes u so right in your grand opinion?
and you... all you can do, is talk of grand visions and vague theories which u have no tangible experience of outside your shallow readings and sling mud at all who disagrees with u. clown...
You claim you are not influenced by any "ism" and then raise all these big "ism"s. well, i'll take it, you are not influenced by THOSE, you are influenced by teh worst "ism" of all- CONSERVATISM.
n no, i'm not going to take it out on the rest of the 3 million SIngaporeans n what makes you think they ALL share the same opinion as you? n when i talk about society, i'm not talking about COMMUNITY. i am talking about the (cold) structures that rule our lives and the all-too pervasive mindsets. n I am saying that these have to change in order to better society.
b4 you judge pple, think carefully. in what way are you justified to say that my readings are shallow? U don't even know what I read! n you say I have "no tangible experience". n you have any? r u a police officer, a spy or ISD agent or a policeman or a judge? If you are neither, i suggest u dun make such grand assertions.
My! when did I ever say that I tolerate a murderer's bahviour? I never did. Dun try putting words into my mouth. I agree that murder should be punnished- even Amnesty International concedes that point. the only idea i have trying to put through to you and your conservative friend Stupisissmart is that the method of punnishment should be different and more humane and not simply be an act of vengeance, regardless of whatever guise name is used. its like the difference between "gainfully unemployed" and "retrenched". Call a spade a spade. Don't come up with fancy nicknames for this things.
and, do you know the song, "Heal teh World"? I think it is a good song, whether or n0ot the singer is now in jail or not. You should download it and listen. There is much injustice in the world. We must strive our best to remove it.
the pikamaster -
To 'pikamaster'
For your strong personal stand in defense of your position, you deserve encouragement for the odds that you are faced with.
Frustrated though you maybe, kudos to you for swimming against the strong tide of different opinion.
Take heart, you are not alone.
The Law is tough, and made so rigid that the Judges find their hands tied by the legislations passed in Parliament, and are themselves unable to express their frustration with their limited options to dispense JUSTICE.
One of the many weaknesses of the Singapore Law is the legislated mandatory 4 stroke of the cane and 6 months jail to any House Owner - (a non-criminal), who dare fail to check clearly the correctness of immigration papers offered by any foreigners intending to be a tenant.
It could be you next, or me.