Singaporean talents leaving to other countries
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Moi? SJI boy...no no no...yours truly is a bona fide neighbourhood school alumniOriginally posted by Gedanken:Hmm - why do you sound like an SJI boy?
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Come back and share the knowledge...you kidding, want to listen to a real life example
Senior SAF NCO 17 years, quit and ventured into China, became CEO of a major manufacturing group...SAF wanted to give hime MAJ (Reservist) rank and here comes the best part, he needs to be interviewed by the press.
They use you as propaganda man. Come back? Ha.
All these yrs they shamelessly make "Sim" a success example when the in actual fact the system failed him. -
Nismos, have a careful read of the posts above, especially the ones about being “problem children”. Would they have been “problem children” if they hadn’t tried testing their ideas and solutions out? I think it’s presumptuous of you to assume that we haven’t.Originally posted by nismoS132:everyone's a whining about how things are bad, and that it's just going to get worse. if you have ideas and solutions, but yet aren't willing to test them out, then you don't really have much to complain about being labelled a quitter.
i don't enjoy the use of the classification of stayers and quitters, too much generalisation, but the fact is that you guys ARE quitting on the rest of us. and then turning around and laughing at us as though all of a sudden, we're beneath you.
there are ways to make things better, online discourse is good, but action is what counts. if you're afraid of the stigma (and risks) of being a politician (of either party), then work it out from the private sector. even then, you can't suddenly just come in and demand change saying "our system is no good, theirs is better. let's uproot ours and use theirs." change takes time. as little as there has been, things have changed. and with the passing of time, will only get better.
you can watch in the building of rome, or you can take part in it. you may or may not live to taste your labour, but at least you've attempted to make a difference. doesn't that count for something?
if staying behind means we're the sheep of the PAP, leaving just puts you under a different shepherd.
Look at people’s reactions to Xprobe’s initial statement about being a problem child. These are people who have been there, pushed the limits and run up against a wall time and time again. No, actually I’ll correct myself – they have been run up against a wall time and time again. These are people who have tried to do the right thing by convincing, consulting, confronting and eventually coercing, and at the end of the day they’re lucky if the reaction they get is confusion. From the looks of the posts here, what you have quite easily adds up to at least 30 combined years of experience in testing out ideas and solutions, only to have them canned by the naysayers and sheep. It’s no sudden change we’re asking for – our conclusions are driven by continuous and chronic resistance to change.
And here you come, adding insult to injury, assuming that these people have not tried. If they had not tried to change things and been noticed for trying, why were they labeled problem children? Wouldn’t they just have been another face in the crowd? The sentiment that you have expressed is one of the things that makes the people who have tried, pushed, been knocked about for trying, and then having had it all written off as a nonevent, say “Forget it, I’m cutting my losses here”. You said “at least you’ve attempted to make a difference”, at the same time blithely ignoring the prior attempts of these people to make a difference. You ask if it counts for something? I think you’ve just provided us with an answer yourself, and it’s a resounding no.
Just have a look at the people who have posted here – the level of intelligence you find here is much higher than the average in Singapore (yes, that even includes ST, loathe as I am to admit it ). From what I know of these posters, we have an accountant, a successful business owner, a race engineer-to-be and a psychologist (apologies to the rest - I don’t know what you guys do). We are the ones who want to build Rome, and we are the ones who see that what’s actually being built is a Hollywood set. Every time we point out the obvious, we have our intelligence insulted by being told, “No, the proper answer is yes sir, no sir, three bags full”.
And still you assume we’ve never tried. Where have you been, Nismos? What have YOU done? Have you been to teach in a government school, to find that your colleagues meant it when they told you not to work too hard on the first day? Have you been backstabbed for delivering better results than your colleagues, because you spotted a grievous error and corrected it? Have you spent hours presenting your case in the clearest and most compelling way possible, only to be told, “But that’s just not the way we’ve done things”, while leaving the key issues untouched? Have you watched someone 20 years your senior get knocked into the slow lane because he dared to try and be innovative?
Until you can truly appreciate the feeling of the posters who commiserated with Xprobe, I don’t think you’ve got any business speculating if we’ve tried. That’s naïve at best, sanctimonious at worst.
Am I a quitter? Hell, yes, and proud of it. IÂ’ve got to see the self-possession to step back and assess my situation and see that in this environment, making a contribution means shutting up and doing as youÂ’re told. IÂ’ve got the experience to tell me that trying to help build Rome is a losing proposition, not because Rome cannot be built but because some idiot in charge is using the blueprints for Lot 5 at Universal Studios instead. Sure IÂ’ll quit, and thatÂ’s testimony to my common sense. Why would I want to be a team player when the team (in the very loosest sense of the word) doesnÂ’t even know the objective of the game?
Am I laughing at you because all of a sudden you’re beneath me? Why would I? The only thing that would show is that I’m still carrying the baggage of my experiences here. I’m not even thinking about you – I’ve got bigger fish to fry.
The laugh I’m laughing is a relieved one – I’ve escaped those miserable confines and gotten myself a real life.
IÂ’m under no illusions about being under a different shepherd now. What IÂ’m happy about is that said shepherd is my conscience. -
Piak!Originally posted by HENG@:gimmie a 5!
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you're talking about the government. i'm talking about the country. it's different.Originally posted by Xprobe:Come back and share the knowledge...you kidding, want to listen to a real life example
Senior SAF NCO 17 years, quit and ventured into China, became CEO of a major manufacturing group...SAF wanted to give hime MAJ (Reservist) rank and here comes the best part, he needs to be interviewed by the press.
They use you as propaganda man. Come back? Ha.
All these yrs they shamelessly make "Sim" a success example when the in actual fact the system failed him.
whether or not the system failed him is a moot point. sim put singapore on the world map. it made us known and has given us opportunities that many other singaporeans need. that is the point. governments come and go. in 10 years, the lee dynasty will be over. things will be different.
stop thinking for just yourself, and start thinking for your country and its citizens as a whole. -
i add my little experiences..
in the past, my folks (teachers) were complaining to their friends and colleagues about what ails their profession...
in my innocence, i just popped in: you know what's wrong, why don't you do something about it? do the right thing! isn't that what teachers teach us to do?
what it got me was one of the most terrible things i have ever heard.. from 6 teachers no less!
they said that my "idealism" will get me nowhere and "i'd better learn not to follow this idealism"....
CYNICAL AS ALL HELL!!
that night, at 13, when i tried to sleep, i found that i could not... i could not come to terms with a bunch of adults, knowing what is wrong with what they were told to do, would not even care enough to say something... and when one of the next generation says "why not?", he was put down harshly... by the very people who are supposed to educate the next generation!
i wept half the night until i fell asleep from exhausion... i'm 34.. turning 35 this year... so, it has been 21 years ago.. and i remember that day until today...
i think, maybe, this "put your head down and be happy you're just being sodomised and not killed" attitude, bred the cynicism? or was it the other way around? either way, if we keep going on, this country is screwed...
this is still being done.. i see this at work... i voice out the wrongs, and i'm labelled a loose cannon... and sometimes told in no uncertain terms to keep quiet... but i will not.. sometimes it gets me into muck.. more often than not actually.. but if i do not, what price my conscience?
like i was saying to mookie the other day, there is a question i would like to ask our lea-duhs of this country: how much did your conscience and soul cost? 40 pieces of silver? -
That the system failed him is exactly the point - he's gone out, achieved, and now the very people who drove him out want to ride on his coat tails? Get real.Originally posted by nismoS132:whether or not the system failed him is a moot point. sim put singapore on the world map. it made us known and has given us opportunities that many other singaporeans need -
My take is that the system is in place for the survival of the masses. But the masses in the 70s is different from the masses of the 90s. LKY admitted in his memoirs that there are wastage (and it means people like us).
But you got to think, is the system that is designed on the 70s basis still relevant today? I would think that some of our intellectually sound leaders dont think so in their private thoughts. But to even suggest tweaking it is a big career risk to themselves. Perceived as a herculean task. Plus the fact that they are trained to play along with the "team". Others, well just want to keep the status quo because at this stage and age, no one likes disruption. Under such an environment, how to even improve when all the things that I have seen them do is to defend themselves.
Nismo has noble thoughts and is still an idealist. I was once, and young too. But there comes a time that you just have to see it as what it is. Why try to explain it away? Well, I quit the system because it doesnt work for me. Anyone would be stupid not to. If it works for you, great and I congratulate you. It's a free world, or didnt they taught you that back home? -
i am a problem child myself. there are things that i will not do the prescribed way, simply because i want to try. whether or not i succeed is irrelevant, what's important to me is that i dared to try something different.
as atobe commonly says, fill the stomache and dull the mind. i look at the people around me and i see zombies. they have no aspirations other than "earn 3-5k a month, have a house, have a stable life" and i want to change that. most of them have their minds dulled to the point that it's almost impossible to convince them otherwise.
and still i'm not willing to give up. singapore is my country and i want to do my best for it, and that means not ever giving up. i can make my riches elsewhere but i will not forget my home. -
Bear, I know exactly what you mean - the difference is that I was 21, a colleague of theirs, acted upon my better judgement, got results (an average 20% improvement in grades over 2 months) and had them go up to the principal with ridiculous complaints such as "He's getting along too well with the kids". What the hell does "too well" mean? Were they accusing me of paedophilia? I'm not even a Michael Jackson fan!
Eventually I decided, bugger it, they want to see a loose cannon, fine. I'm kicking asses and taking names - I went all out to raise my standard of teaching, and once I'd proven my point, I left. -
Gedanken, I was about to reply to Nismos post when I say that you've said just about everything I've wanted to say. Cheers mate!
Nismos, I don't about the others, but I'm certainly not laughing at those who stay. I feel happy for those who like it here, for they have found what makes them happy, and if being here floats their boat, they can go ahead. Sure I have my opinions about their decisions, but I'm sure they have their about mine.
I feel sad for those who would like to leave but cannot because they don't qualify for some reason or another.
I feel pity for those who don't like it here, but believe the propaganda that they grass is not greener on the other side, without actually going to try the grass for themselves.
Do I want to contribute to Singapore? Sure I want to. But thats not the question, the question is would the system allow me to. And as for changing the system from within, do you seriously think you'll be allowed to? I have seen too many nails hammered back into place by the system to believe in that any more.
Are things getting better? Sure, if you compare it to days gone by, then I suppose I can give a qualified yes.
But deep down inside, from what I've seen and from what I've heard, Singapore will not get better to what I want it to be. Since I can't (nor want) to change the system, I opt to leave. -
Originally posted by Gedanken:
the people who drove him out are the shortsighted leaders. it is not the fault of the other 3 million singaporeans who are in desperate need of change and opportunities.
That the system failed him is [b]exactly the point - he's gone out, achieved, and now the very people who drove him out want to ride on his coat tails? Get real.[/b] -
Originally posted by nismoS132:
I really dont give a rats ass whether the dynasty will be over or not. I am talking about the system, the attitude, the thinking which has been built and concertized for 30+years. How do you think THAT will change. What am I doing here in this forum if I do not think of my country and fellow man?
you're talking about the [b]government. i'm talking about the country. it's different.
whether or not the system failed him is a moot point. sim put singapore on the world map. it made us known and has given us opportunities that many other singaporeans need. that is the point. governments come and go. in 10 years, the lee dynasty will be over. things will be different.
stop thinking for just yourself, and start thinking for your country and its citizens as a whole.[/b] -
this government has made itself bigger than the country!
they behave like they ARE the country and enforce it the same way.. read lingos' mail about the police thing...
unless there's solidarity in the citizenry, nothing will change... but look at the things around us.. read the signs... dude gets stabbed and no one cares.. incidents like that, tell me that this citizenry has been engineered into the very host that will feed the parasite that ails our country...
i have not forgotten that the country is bigger than the party... but have the people figured this out?
at all?Originally posted by nismoS132:
you're talking about the [b]government. i'm talking about the country. it's different.
whether or not the system failed him is a moot point. sim put singapore on the world map. it made us known and has given us opportunities that many other singaporeans need. that is the point. governments come and go. in 10 years, the lee dynasty will be over. things will be different.
stop thinking for just yourself, and start thinking for your country and its citizens as a whole.[/b] -
Hats off to you nis-man. Good luck. See you in 10 years.Originally posted by nismoS132:i am a problem child myself. there are things that i will not do the prescribed way, simply because i want to try. whether or not i succeed is irrelevant, what's important to me is that i dared to try something different.
as atobe commonly says, fill the stomache and dull the mind. i look at the people around me and i see zombies. they have no aspirations other than "earn 3-5k a month, have a house, have a stable life" and i want to change that. most of them have their minds dulled to the point that it's almost impossible to convince them otherwise.
and still i'm not willing to give up. singapore is my country and i want to do my best for it, and that means not ever giving up. i can make my riches elsewhere but i will not forget my home. -
Those that have figured it out, have left, are planning to go, or wish they could go.Originally posted by the Bear:i have not forgotten that the country is bigger than the party... but have the people figured this out?
at all? -
*Shakes head sadly* Nismos, Nismos, Nismos, Nismos, Nismos. Do you even know what you're saying?
You think you're a problem child? Good for you. A real problem child by Singapore standards would know better than to have made the assumptions that you have made about others not having tried. Don't patronise us by saying you know our perspective.
First you say:
Then you say:Originally posted by nismoS132:they have no aspirations other than "earn 3-5k a month, have a house, have a stable life" and i want to change that. most of them have their minds dulled to the point that it's almost impossible to convince them otherwise
Make up your mind - are they dulled or are they desperate?Originally posted by nismoS132:it is not the fault of the other 3 million singaporeans who are in desperate need of change and opportunities.
Of course it's their fault - they bought right into the brain-dead prescription of the system. If they want to betray themselves that way, they've got no business expecting a free ride from someone who put in the real work. -
and precisely that is why they need us here, so that singapore does not end up as another exodus.
what you speak of is apathy. everywhere in the world are people with apathy.
a homeless old man died in the bushes outside a shopping district in osaka where at least 100,000 people walk past everyday, but it took 2 months before someone reported the death to the police. and this is supposedly 1 of the safest countries in the world.
i'm not being an idealist here, i'm trying to be realistic. if everyone leaves, what happens? -
Was that question supposed to be realistic and not idealistic?
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Originally posted by nismoS132:
As Bear has said, you know, I know, Gedanken knows. Problem is, the regime doesn't know that country is bigger than the government.
you're talking about the government. i'm talking about the country. it's different.
whether or not the system failed him is a moot point. sim put singapore on the world map. it made us known and has given us opportunities that many other singaporeans need. that is the point. governments come and go. in 10 years, the lee dynasty will be over. things will be different.
stop thinking for just yourself, and start thinking for your country and its citizens as a whole.
The dynasty will be gone in 10 years? With the system they have in place? With the people they have managed to brainwash? I wish I was a confident as you are.
I have no doubt it will not survive forever, the question, as I've said to my friend is WHEN it will go and HOW it will go. It can go the way of the KMT inTaiwan, or it can go the way of Ceaucescu in Romania. Given the track record of this Party's lust for keeping absolute power, you want to take a guess which way it will go?
I will think for my country, but not at the detriment of myself, my spouse, my family and my descendants. -
And you see what being in the system does to you? You conveniently concluded that those who have left and succeeded elsewhere are talking to those who have not left like they are beneath them.
Cant you just for once break out of that typical Spore mould of its either I am better than you or you are better than me? It doesnt have to be this way. Being more successful (career, money, status, title, company working for) doesnt mean that one is superior than the other. There is no soul in people who hold this type of perspective. -
they are desperate because they have been dulled. they've been brain-washed their entire lives, not many know of any alternative. and that is why it is imperative that we highlight the alternatives to them, that there are more ways to succeed. than the fixed route.Originally posted by Gedanken:Make up your mind - are they dulled or are they desperate?
Of course it's their fault - they bought right into the brain-dead prescription of the system. If they want to betray themselves that way, they've got no business expecting a free ride from someone who put in the real work. -
And what happens when our local version of the Duvaliers is finally gone? Will the country go berserk when it gets drunk on freedom?
P/S Viper, apologies - didn't mean to take the words out of your keyboard! -
no that superiority complex thing is actually a dig at azrael.Originally posted by Xprobe:And you see what being in the system does to you? You conveniently concluded that those who have left and succeeded elsewhere are talking to those who have not left like they are beneath them. -
WORD!Originally posted by Xprobe:And you see what being in the system does to you? You conveniently concluded that those who have left and succeeded elsewhere are talking to those who have not left like they are beneath them.
Cant you just for once break out of that typical Spore mould of its either I am better than you or you are better than me? It doesnt have to be this way. Being more successful (career, money, status, title, company working for) doesnt mean that one is superior than the other. There is no soul in people who hold this type of perspective.