Singaporean talents leaving to other countries
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look at singapore..
there is the internet... there is freedom to travel... there is open avenues for discussion like in this forum....
the alternatives have always been present and THERE for the citizenry to grab...
yet, they have been rejected..
or they are too scared to run with it after given it...
highlight the alternative? the amount of neonlights and arc-lights shining on the alternatives is blinding!Originally posted by nismoS132:they are desperate because they have been dulled. they've been brain-washed their entire lives, not many know of any alternative. and that is why it is imperative that we highlight the alternatives to them, that there are more ways to succeed. than the fixed route. -
And when we highlight the alternatives to them, do they go, "Hey, that could work"? Get real. You can lead the horse to water, whereupon the horse can drink, ignore it or piss in it. After having the latter two happen enough times, one needs to know when to cut one's losses and stop paying inordinately on some Qixotic ideal.Originally posted by nismoS132:they are desperate because they have been dulled. they've been brain-washed their entire lives, not many know of any alternative. and that is why it is imperative that we highlight the alternatives to them, that there are more ways to succeed. than the fixed route.
No newater jokes please!
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Originally posted by Gedanken:
huh?
[b]WORD![/b]
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WORD! n. A high level of agreement.
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street slang for "i totally agree with you!"Originally posted by Xprobe:huh?
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Geez man...getting old and out of touchOriginally posted by the Bear:street slang for "i totally agree with you!" -
Hehe - it's usually said with a raised and clenched fist!
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I gotto go get some sleep, goodnight from Beijing, its freezing and dry.
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'night, Xprobe! I wish you hot tea and a good electric blanket!
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goodnight xprobe
Originally posted by Xprobe:I gotto go get some sleep, goodnight from Beijing, its freezing and dry. -
Originally posted by the Bear:look at singapore..
there is the internet... there is freedom to travel... there is open avenues for discussion like in this forum....
the alternatives have always been present and THERE for the citizenry to grab...
yet, they have been rejected..
or they are too scared to run with it after given it...
highlight the alternative? the amount of neonlights and arc-lights shining on the alternatives is blinding!
Spot on Bear!
In talking with many people since I've come back to Singapore, I've found that Singaporeans can be broken into 4 distinct groups on this issue.
There are those like Bear, Gedanken, Heng, Xprobe, me etc. We don't like what we see going on around us, and we believe and know that there is a better life out there for us and out families, despite the stories of crime, racism and poor health care the local propaganda machine churns out. We want to leave and are actively making plans to, if we haven't left already.
Another group are the polar opposites of the first group. They believe in the system, and that life here is a good as it's going to get. They are happy living in their overpriced pigeon holes and driving their overpriced sets of wheels. They agree with a system where theres no sympathy and think those who fall by the wayside had it coming. Conformity is king with this group
And yet another are as disgusted as the first group, but due to various reasons (age, qualifications), they cannot leave.
The final group applies to quite a lot of people, at least those I've spoken to. They don't entirely agree with the system, but have been cowed by the propaganda into thinking that there is no better alternaitve, that they will head out into the great unknown where racism and crime are waiting . Hence they stick with the devil they know, rather than take a chance of finding a better life.
There is some generalisation involved in the above analysis, and some do not fit into the mould.
Gedanken, no worries, but I think I've just done what you should be doing with the above post! -
Nitez Xprobe!
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Excellent summary, Viper!
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Hmm, seems there are four distinct groups as said by viper
But for me,my dad knew no matter what, me and my siblings may not be able to make it in Malaysia, thats why he brought us over here. My aunt also moved over, same goes for my cousin who chose to to study in NTU, instead of Malaysian universities, and eventually setting here married.
Now, not comparing the differences between sg, malaysia and other countries, (well the debate is endless), the point is, people do strive for better life, whether its pursuing their passion, increasing income of their family, escape from oppression, bringing their family into safer countries etc etc, people from time immemorable has always try to improve their life.
Jewish Exodus from Egypt, Singapore pioneers came from their homeland to settle here, Former East Germans flooding West Germans cities to look for jobs. They looked for better life, and why not?
People leaving sg to pursue dreams (like HENG@), my family left Malaysia for better living conditions in sg, Japanese retiring in Malaysia, its an endless cycle of migrations, crisscrossing the world.
Well, my personal view is this. Like I used to tell my friends, I dont care what your definitions of better life is (it can be anything), what you think of your present environment (you can KBKB about it the kopitiam), are you doing anything to improve your present conditions?
Definitons of better life? Up to you. You think sg is not good enough for you to study history deeply, and wish to further studies and build a career in this maybe lets say in merry old England, go ahead. Others may boo you, but I say I admire you for having the gumption to chase your dreams. I dont care if it turn up to be a failure, at least you want to, and you tried. Thats the most admirable thing a person can do.
Yes, people do condemn sg. gahmen. Urm for a start, I say the view are relative depending on your perspective, and even this perspective is relative too. Let assume all facts to be true, and people start to argue about the lousy environment here and how other countries are better, and many people join in the fracas. Whatever view people hold, I respect that decision. Its his perspective of that matter. He can choose to stay in sg and support the gahmen, I dont care. Let say its true sg gahmen is absurd in its thinking and actions, is he doing anything to prevent himself from the negative effects or reducing damages from the policies of the gahmen? Is he able to pursue his dreams here? If he says he gonna get a BMW by sticking to his job, which pays him $2000 per month, and harp on the quality of life in sg or COE is nothing to be worried about, can pay by installment etc etc, I probably will knock him on the head.
It shows this guy has not waken up to the reality of the society, not just sg society. On the other hand, if he says, the sg society and the gahmen suxx, is he gonna KBKB all day and not doing anything about it. Some genuinely do not have the capabilities to leave ,such as financial problems. Understandable. But many who KBKB chose to be ever-grumpy about it.
I always tell my friends who are now studying in the career sense, many who are thrown into the paper chase. Do something that will help them in their career. There are virtually degree holders everywhere. Can they do something to add value to their degree, like picking up additional skills during holidays, doing industrial attachment for the experience as well for the 'beautiful resume', doing investment, doing business etc etc. Unfortunately, this has met with blank stares. Typical Singaporeans mindset.
All in all, I do support people who wish to go overseas to better their life. All this nonsense about quitter and stayer irks me. Like most of the forumnites here, I do agree the gahmen is getting more and more absurd in their thinking. Soon the Prime Ministership is to be passed to DPM Lee (3rd Generation), but the whole gahmen is still having the midset of LKY era, especially with regard to the approach of setting policies. I mentioned this in other thread way before, they already have this 'irksome scholarly' approach to doing things. Now it is 'I am more logical in this aspect, trust me' attitude, will it become 'I am perfect, you must follow me'.?
In conclusion, like what viper said about four groups of people, true sg sucks, but there are way out. Not just way out of the country, but doing something more worth while than sitting down there sucking thumb.
Just my dua sen.
PS: I am already a SIngapore citizen and served NS. So me no Harimau, hehe. -
Well said, laurence. At the end of the day, the best policy is live and let live. If somebody said, "Don't like it here, leave", I'd be happy with that, since I've already left. All this holier-than-thou rubbish about quitting and not having tried, on the other hand, I can do without.
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wow... 5 pages.. i've tried reading thru everyone's post and am having a headache trying to grasp the different views presented. my command of the english language is not as powerful as most who have posted thus i shall just post my thoughts, simple as they are. sorry if it is repeat eh?
talents? humm... wat is defined as talents? scholars? high IQ? duh, i don't know.
wat i know is that those who leave have guts. it takes guts to move out of your comfort zone, it takes guts to pursue your own dreams, it takes guts to even voice out some of the views here. bear in mind most of those who venture out are often without much of a support group (example, being severly ill, alone, no mum to take care of you). they have to adjust to a different culture, different system, built friendships from scratch, racism, etc. not everyone survives overseas, many got no choice but to return to singapore. it ain't as sweet and easy as some think it is.
i'm a simple person with simple requests in life. I used to be a "yes sir, no sir, pls tell me what u want me to do sir" kind of person. i wasn't a problem child (sleeping and talking in class ain't that biggie a problem ya?), listened to my parents for the smallest thing, agreed our ruling party did do a manificent, though not perfect job (no one's perfect), wanted to just work, get my HDB, bred and die.
for the first time in my life when i decided to chase my dream, i was shown the door in singapore. all i wanted was a university education - not distance learning, not part-time. i wanted the full experience of a uni student. couldn't get into ntu and nus cos my results are not good enough for them. however, overseas unis opened their doors to me and i grabbed the chance. go on and argue about "overseas uni wanna earn your money, degree not so good, etc", and i will tell you one thing : THEY gave me the chance.
in a strange way, i got to thank the "system" for opening my eyes. without the "system", i would have not thought of moving out of comfy singapore, would not have experience the ups and downs of being an alien in another country, would not have opened my mind. I thank the system for pushing me into the happiest years of my young life.
from my tiny view of the world, i know there are pros and cons to everything. in singapore, i got my food and comfort paradise. Food: that i need not mention why. Comfort: my whole family, long time friends are here, as long as i flow with the system (work>hdb>bred>work>die) i'm pretty much covered, public transport is fantastic, etc. but if i stay, it would be conforming myself to the system, a system that has set how my life should be.
To a system that condamned me even before giving me a chance to prove myself, i say :
"I've got my dreams to pursue. Since it's going to be tough here and else where, i would rather take the rocky road and take my chances at a place where i am happy. if you can give me a fair shot at it, i will stay. else stop wondering why your people are leaving and open your eyes."
these are just my thoughts
aside: abt the post-er
currently trying to pursue my dream in sg (ie, freshie looking for a job). so don't say i'm not giving sg a shot. -
Yeah so that the Prime Minister can stand up and say why Singaporeans are leaving, what good does it do? Everyone knows why we leave, i don't know why this questions is discussed to the point of ad nauseum.Originally posted by nismoS132:i seriously don't believe they're going to send the ISD on you and make you sing majulah singapore every hour just because you said singapore is restrictive, nor are they going to put your name into any blackbook. if anything, it's probably survey. and 1 that direly needs honest opinions, otherwise we're just going to have more idiots that believe people are leaving singapore because of other reasons, and then have 'facts' to back them up with.
Singapore will always be constricted by land, or lack there of. There is only so much crap you can dump into the ocean. There will never be enough tiertiary places to meet demand. Once the 'future leaders' of singapore leave the country for like 3 years for Uni, they adapt to the lifestyle and most of them wouldn't want to come back. Remember about 8 years ago when the government decided there were too many doctors?!!? They cutback the number of students that NUS would take?? What's going to be next, there will be too many business students? -
Quitters leave Singapore??
All of us from Singapore have great great great grand parents, in my case, grandmother who migrated from the Indian continent, China, Europe and wherever else.
They left their home country to pursure better opportunities in Singapore. Are you calling your ancestors quitters? Isn't it the same argument? They gave up the 'hard life' in their home country to come to a place like Singapore and earn their keeps. A lot of them wanted to return to their home countries. Like the students in Asia, UK or States. But as time goes on, they decided that living in Singapore isn't that bad. Just like my counterparts over here. They settle down in their new country and have families.
So if you're calling us Quitters, you are yourself born from quitters consequently, we are all 'quitters' in Singapore.
Australians leave to migrate to UK, the Europeans migrate over here. I used to work with a French boss in the cafe. It is normal behaviour and one of those things that we just have to accept. -
i'm not trying to be holier than anything, i'm just trying to say that leaving solves the problem only for the individual, but the root cause is still there and unless something is done, it will not go away.
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That is the problem with our Singapore Political Leaders, as fickle as ordinary Singaporeans, whom they try NOT to be, as they are supposed to be 'Leaders'.Originally posted by the_don:wow... 5 pages.. i've tried reading thru everyone's post and am having a headache trying to grasp the different views presented. my command of the english language is not as powerful as most who have posted thus i shall just post my thoughts, simple as they are. sorry if it is repeat eh?
talents? humm... wat is defined as talents? scholars? high IQ? duh, i don't know.
wat i know is that those who leave have guts. it takes guts to move out of your comfort zone, it takes guts to pursue your own dreams, it takes guts to even voice out some of the views here. bear in mind most of those who venture out are often without much of a support group (example, being severly ill, alone, no mum to take care of you). they have to adjust to a different culture, different system, built friendships from scratch, racism, etc. not everyone survives overseas, many got no choice but to return to singapore. it ain't as sweet and easy as some think it is.
i'm a simple person with simple requests in life. I used to be a "yes sir, no sir, pls tell me what u want me to do sir" kind of person. i wasn't a problem child (sleeping and talking in class ain't that biggie a problem ya?), listened to my parents for the smallest thing, agreed our ruling party did do a manificent, though not perfect job (no one's perfect), wanted to just work, get my HDB, bred and die.
for the first time in my life when i decided to chase my dream, i was shown the door in singapore. all i wanted was a university education - not distance learning, not part-time. i wanted the full experience of a uni student. couldn't get into ntu and nus cos my results are not good enough for them. however, overseas unis opened their doors to me and i grabbed the chance. go on and argue about "overseas uni wanna earn your money, degree not so good, etc", and i will tell you one thing : THEY gave me the chance.
in a strange way, i got to thank the "system" for opening my eyes. without the "system", i would have not thought of moving out of comfy singapore, would not have experience the ups and downs of being an alien in another country, would not have opened my mind. I thank the system for pushing me into the happiest years of my young life.
from my tiny view of the world, i know there are pros and cons to everything. in singapore, i got my food and comfort paradise. Food: that i need not mention why. Comfort: my whole family, long time friends are here, as long as i flow with the system (work>hdb>bred>work>die) i'm pretty much covered, public transport is fantastic, etc. but if i stay, it would be conforming myself to the system, a system that has set how my life should be.
To a system that condamned me even before giving me a chance to prove myself, i say :
"I've got my dreams to pursue. Since it's going to be tough here and else where, i would rather take the rocky road and take my chances at a place where i am happy. if you can give me a fair shot at it, i will stay. else stop wondering why your people are leaving and open your eyes."
these are just my thoughts
aside: abt the post-er currently trying to pursue my dream in sg (ie, freshie looking for a job). so don't say i'm not giving sg a shot.
It is hypocritical on the part of these Politicial Leaders to attempt to encourage Singaporeans to 'Spread Our Wings', to Think Out of the Box, to be Entrepreneurial, to be Greater Then What WE Can Be; and yet almost at about the same time, they will remind us
- that you will be a QUITTER if you leave Singapore, (spread our wings ? )
- that there is LIMITED POLITICAL TALENT, so leave the thinking to them, (think out of the box ? )
- that there is LIMITED ENTREPRENEURIAL TALENT, so leave it to them to provide all the services through Government Linked Businesses, (be more entrepreneurial and compete with GLCs capitalised with our Tax Money ? )
- that there is LIMITED GREAT TALENT, leave it to them to provide all the GREAT PERSONALITIES, (to be greater than what we can be, and aspire to the PM position ? )
These contradictory positions of our self-proclaimed 'Leaders' can only reflect their own weak position and lack of confidence in the people whom they are leading.
They seem to have forgotten that it was the Electorate who put them in their positions of 'Leadership'. Their positions are subjected to the vagaries and idiosyncracies of the Electorate, whom they would like to discipline, mould and control, so as to give themselves some degree of control and predictability of their own insecure positions.
Congratulations, if you have moved, and have succeeded in pulling away from the 'gravitational pull of the Sun'.
It takes true TALENT, VISION, and ENTERPRISE for anyone to go against the tide of events, and make a move to pull oneself out of the inertia, and TAKE THE FIRST STEP TOWARDS a NEW ENVIRONMENT - that is totally alien to one's comfort zone. -
Those who have left Singapore, will be exposed to the value systems of the world, and will return with a wealth of new experiences, new visions, new ideas.Originally posted by nismoS132:i'm not trying to be holier than anything, i'm just trying to say that leaving solves the problem only for the individual, but the root cause is still there and unless something is done, it will not go away.
When all those who have left and return to form a sufficient CRITICAL MASS, it will result in a force to be reckoned with.
They will form the core of opinion makers, trend setters, shapers of events, makers of new lifestyle standards.
Singapore can benefit in the long run. -
You still don't get it, do you? You still don't see how for years, we've not only been saying there is a problem, but we've been pushing our solutions, and how for years Singaporeans have either denied the problem or have tried to hammer us back into place.Originally posted by nismoS132:i'm not trying to be holier than anything, i'm just trying to say that leaving solves the problem only for the individual, but the root cause is still there and unless something is done, it will not go away.
Suddenly, just like thirst is a delayed indicator of dehydration, they realise that there IS a problem, and then like spoilt brats try to DEMAND that we return to "do our duty". That's real rich. Tough titties, people - we tried, you said piss off, so we did. Don't go bitching and whining about it now.
And as for you, Nismos, coming about trumpeting that the "problem will not go away for the society" like you're the first person to discover it. Well, I've got a newsflash for you. The only thing you're showing is how wet behind the ears you are, that you don't even realise that some of us have not only asked that question, not only worked out our answers, but indeed have tested our solutions and found that they work. You're well behind the game here but you think you're ahead, and that's what makes you holier-than-thou. -
OMG look at your signiture.Originally posted by nismoS132:i'm not trying to be holier than anything, i'm just trying to say that leaving solves the problem only for the individual, but the root cause is still there and unless something is done, it will not go away.
Have you tried having a conversation with your most likely to be a PAP member in your constituency?
Instead of saying that those who leave, leave the problems behind. If you choose to stay at least do something to improve things. By sitting here complaining on a forum, isn't it the same as us who leave? At least we transfer funds into Singapore that we have earnt overseas to correct the balance of trade. -
not a lot do.Originally posted by the Bear:this government has made itself bigger than the country!
they behave like they ARE the country and enforce it the same way.. read lingos' mail about the police thing...
unless there's solidarity in the citizenry, nothing will change... but look at the things around us.. read the signs... dude gets stabbed and no one cares.. incidents like that, tell me that this citizenry has been engineered into the very host that will feed the parasite that ails our country...
i have not forgotten that the country is bigger than the party... but have the people figured this out?
at all?
well said beary! -
hear hear!!!Originally posted by Xprobe:And you see what being in the system does to you? You conveniently concluded that those who have left and succeeded elsewhere are talking to those who have not left like they are beneath them.
Cant you just for once break out of that typical Spore mould of its either I am better than you or you are better than me? It doesnt have to be this way. Being more successful (career, money, status, title, company working for) doesnt mean that one is superior than the other. There is no soul in people who hold this type of perspective.