Homosexual Marriages
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Yeah.. what is the difference between two guys living together yes in that way.Originally posted by True_Xerion:but seriously, i believe if 2 ppl feel they are meant for each other and wanna spend the rest of their days together, no one can stop them. i think marriage is but a legal acknowledgement of this and provides some limited form of protection against outside abuse.
TX
And two guys signing on the line?
One has legal acknowledgement, one doesn't. -
The States is more affluent and metropolitan states like California, Massachusetts and New York, gay marriages are acceptable by the laws in those states. However, in other states, like Virginia are still unacceptable due to the strong religious movement (The predominant religion in the States is Christianity)Originally posted by Lingos:As discussed, Americans are more conservative? (You mean liberal?) than you think. Especially red neck states!
Look at NY and San Fran (gay capital), every other guy is gay. -
I think homosexuals have some psychiatric disorder bcos of a troubled childhood. Either their mother/father was very dominant, or they have a very strict father/mother or they suffer sexual or physical abuse or others. Some do it to provoke their parents. Some do it bcos they can't find love at home. They can't get love from a male as in their father (I am talking about a male homo) and when they find someone male who loves them, they feel the high sensation. They feel loved. I know many of you disagree but I hope a homosexual can speak from their experience here.
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Very simple, love is blind is it not?Originally posted by Devils_advocate:I think homosexuals have some psychiatric disorder bcos of a troubled childhood. Either their mother/father was very dominant, or they have a very strict father/mother or they suffer sexual or physical abuse or others. Some do it to provoke their parents. Some do it bcos they can't find love at home. They can't get love from a male as in their father (I am talking about a male homo) and when they find someone male who loves them, they feel the high sensation. They feel loved. I know many of you disagree but I hope a homosexual can speak from their experience here.
A guy feels love for a girl, everyone can understand that.
But, the same sex loving each other, people find it hard to understand?
Is'nt that strange? Sure, its not the norm. But you have to understand that some people are just born to be attracted to the same sex, lest be the opposite sex.
Be more open minded Devils_advocate! -
i think it is more of a psychological trauma. n nope, im not homo. psychiatric disorder implies they need to be warded in IMH...Originally posted by Devils_advocate:I think homosexuals have some psychiatric disorder bcos of a troubled childhood. Either their mother/father was very dominant, or they have a very strict father/mother or they suffer sexual or physical abuse or others. Some do it to provoke their parents. Some do it bcos they can't find love at home. They can't get love from a male as in their father (I am talking about a male homo) and when they find someone male who loves them, they feel the high sensation. They feel loved. I know many of you disagree but I hope a homosexual can speak from their experience here.
any way, i think that homosexuals should be reconciled with society. instead of this plague of demonisation that is being hurled at them , (in fact, some pple seem to think that homosex itself is a form of demonic possession), i think society should work at converting them back to hetero.
last year, i watched a tv documentary abt a program by religious groups in Indonesia to re-educate and reform prostitutes. I find that a refreshing occurrence, a saving of breath from the constant demonisation. unfortunately, no Christian so far seems to be suggesting such a move, or minister by the count (htne, our ministers dun usually suggest anything real useful, sigh). as far as it seems to me, juz like the cases of capital punnishment, our conservatist Asian mindset is at work here, and what's more strong than a cause supposedly supported by non-Asian religious beliefs?
the dissappointed pikamaster
Dare to Disturb the Universe -
So girl & girl is ok,
but everyone flips when guy & guy is mentioned?
Psychological trauma??
But not all of them will turn out gay.
So how is that explained? -
Probably genetics. We have all read in Streats about a news commentator who suffered abuse as a child and yet turned out ok. But some turned out bad. I think it's genetics or survival of the fittest. I am saying generally.Originally posted by Lingos:So girl & girl is ok,
but everyone flips when guy & guy is mentioned?
Psychological trauma??
But not all of them will turn out gay.
So how is that explained? -
I am NOT condemning them. I think they need help.Originally posted by :Very simple, love is blind is it not?
A guy feels love for a girl, everyone can understand that.
But, the same sex loving each other, people find it hard to understand?
Is'nt that strange? Sure, its not the norm. But you have to understand that some people are just born to be attracted to the same sex, lest be the opposite sex.
Be more open minded Devils_advocate!
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when i posted, i was referring to homosexuals as a full group, not just lesbians.Originally posted by Lingos:So girl & girl is ok,
but everyone flips when guy & guy is mentioned?
Psychological trauma??
But not all of them will turn out gay.
So how is that explained?
anyway, you are right in saying that not all people with psychological trauma will turn out gay. Those pple who are strong in heart will turn out to be like Phillip Lee. however, others may turn into murdererers, bandits, kidnappers, molesters, robbers, drug addicts and drug traffickers. n those are much worse.
I agree with Devil's Advocate that Homos are people who need help, and badly, maybe some kind of therapy or something. For I believe, that deep down inside they will feel insecure, and not merely because of pple's social stigma (like i have mentioned b4, SG is a VERY CONSERVATIVE Asian society), like a person with Down's Syndrome or a person with Cancer. To exclude them merely adds fuel to the fire. I believe that all this present hullaboo stems from the following:
1) some slightly more extremist pple don a fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible's words on homosexuality. tot hem, because Homosexuality is a sin as bad as Murder, homosexuals shoulld be considered as criminals, and unfit for society. these pple forget that God wanted them to help these pple reform.
2) the social stigma turns on biological defense mechanisms in the homosexuals, which causes them to start agitating for their "rights".
3) politicians like George Bush, to further their own popularity, pound in much rhetoric about the Sanctity of Marriage and how it must be kept, and start suggesting laws that explicity define homosexuality as a crime, worsening the situation. in SG, we have a wonderful constitution that guarantees pple basic freedoms unless they "infringe on national interests, security or public morality". As seems to be the legal custom here, these three restrictions are not clearly defined, and become the much-hyped "OB markers".
the arixion -
there is no proof that being gay is "borned"Originally posted by :Very simple, love is blind is it not?
A guy feels love for a girl, everyone can understand that.
But, the same sex loving each other, people find it hard to understand?
Is'nt that strange? Sure, its not the norm. But you have to understand that some people are just born to be attracted to the same sex, lest be the opposite sex.
Be more open minded Devils_advocate!
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of the female homos that i know, all of them turned lesbian because of a bad experience with guy(s).Originally posted by Devils_advocate:I think homosexuals have some psychiatric disorder bcos of a troubled childhood. Either their mother/father was very dominant, or they have a very strict father/mother or they suffer sexual or physical abuse or others. Some do it to provoke their parents. Some do it bcos they can't find love at home. They can't get love from a male as in their father (I am talking about a male homo) and when they find someone male who loves them, they feel the high sensation. They feel loved. I know many of you disagree but I hope a homosexual can speak from their experience here. -
Is it natural for a Male to behave in a Feminine way; or in reverse, a Female behaving in a Masculine way ?
We have seen and given labels to both these group of 'unusual' people, in which some effeminated men believe that they are born as women - having effeminated characteristics, and breasts that are more 'pronounced' then that found in other men.
There are also Women whose personality are quite unlike the demure females that one is accustomed to, and even more aggressively domineering than strong women.
Each will prefer to associate with those from their own gender, while some can cross the line and can be comfortable with people from both gender.
Do these people have psychological problems, or are they born with some additional chromosomes then that normally given to most 'normal' persons ?
Most Males are born with XY Chromosomes, while Females are born with XX Chromosomes; some Males are born with an extra X chromosome that result in them having a XXY; and the same can happen to a Female.
These are aberrations of the development of the human genes.
While some opt for complete sex change, so as to allow them to cross that line permanently, and result in a more satisfactory social life without the usual stigma; others will not do so, and prefer to live as they are born.
Should the community, and the society at large, make allowance for such un-natural marriages of individuals from the same gender ?
Should these un-natural marriages be allowed to adopt children - from normal marriages, but without a family - and expose these children to an environment of un-natural behaviour and values ?
If tolerance must be given, let it be for the immediate persons only, that should not affect the lives of younger persons.
Chromosomes X and Y, and Sex Determination
http://www.biology-online.org/2/6_sex_chromosomes.htm
Counting X Chromosomes to Determine Sex
http://www.hhmi.org/news/meyer.html
X and Y Chromosomes – Why is the Y so Weird ?
http://www.dhushara.freehosting.net/book/upd/aug201/xychr.htm
Finished ‘Y’ Chromosomes Sequences – a Genomic ‘Crystal Palace’
http://www.hhmi.org/news/page5.html
Triplo-X Syndrome
http://www.triplo-x.org/ -
WOW atobe.
That's really interesting! -
I feel gay marriages should not be supported...
If one look at the cities that is quite liberal about homo and lesbians, one will find that there seems to more homo, lesbian etc compared with most other normal countries. I mean if you go to Thailand, a lot of people I had seen had uncommon sexual preferences... If people are more strict about this issue, less support are given to these group, then in the end lesser people will turn out to be "abnormal". Of course one might argue that it maybe because people are more open and display their preferences publicly, however I still feel that the number had increased because there is support for such behavior.
Of course people may be born as abnormal with XXY chrom. However even as such, these people still have a choice to lead normal or abnormal lives. Personally I know of a few sissy people who still get married and give birth to babies. This is also the case for girls who are extremely tomboyish.
Another issue is, if these gay couple are allowed to adopt children, will they set as a bad example for these children ? I mean most likely that child, if it is a male, will end up to be gay too.
Question is, is it good for society to have more gays and lesbians or more normal people ? -
actually PM Goh have already announce that the govt allow homosexual.Hence they are more daring to come out to the society now.So i think homosexual marriages would sooner or later be allows.
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the last question i can't answer, and i don't think anyone can.Originally posted by socrates:I feel gay marriages should not be supported...
If one look at the cities that is quite liberal about homo and lesbians, one will find that there seems to more homo, lesbian etc compared with most other normal countries. I mean if you go to Thailand, a lot of people I had seen had uncommon sexual preferences... If people are more strict about this issue, less support are given to these group, then in the end lesser people will turn out to be "abnormal". Of course one might argue that it maybe because people are more open and display their preferences publicly, however I still feel that the number had increased because there is support for such behavior.
Of course people may be born as abnormal with XXY chrom. However even as such, these people still have a choice to lead normal or abnormal lives. Personally I know of a few sissy people who still get married and give birth to babies. This is also the case for girls who are extremely tomboyish.
Another issue is, if these gay couple are allowed to adopt children, will they set as a bad example for these children ? I mean most likely that child, if it is a male, will end up to be gay too.
Question is, is it good for society to have more gays and lesbians or more normal people ?
however, i have some things to say abt the other issues u mentioned. in the AMerican and Canadian tussle over Homo rights, some adopted children of homo couples testified that they are actually very happy in their families and they are still hetero, married with children of their on with opp-sex spouses. they have not had any psychological damage yet.
Secondly, Sissies and tomboys are very much different from Homosexuals. the former are merely social stereotypical labels that apply because the individual is slightly different from others; tthe latter is a biological phenomenon (psychological is considered biological as well).
as for the comparison on number of homosexuals, don't jump into conclusions yet. think abt prostitution. i have a feeling that the number of prostitutes in Thailand roughly equal the number of prostitutes in Holland, desopite the countries' differing attitudes toward the issue.
the contemplative pikamaster -
- Well economically speaking, gay people do contribute to the economy by working (thus being as productive as normal people). However, they ‘may’ only lack in one aspect, they do not contribute to the growing population ie 0 birth rate. However, they do make up by starting a family and adopting orphan kids or babies. Thus, stimulating the demand and supply for kids or babies, if there is sufficient gay families, there can be a decent demand for orphans or babies. Thus, benefiting the society as orphans can live together in a foster home with a gay family as the society does not need to pay for the needs and welfare for the orphans anymore(less strain on the government’s budget on expenditure, thus a tiny reduction in taxes). Chances are, these orphan kids will be brought up happier and have a brighter prospect of being more productive.(Increased benefit to society and less of a nuisance to society if orphans are brought up in a halfway house)Originally posted by socrates:I feel gay marriages should not be supported...
If one look at the cities that is quite liberal about homo and lesbians, one will find that there seems to more homo, lesbian etc compared with most other normal countries. I mean if you go to Thailand, a lot of people I had seen had uncommon sexual preferences... If people are more strict about this issue, less support are given to these group, then in the end lesser people will turn out to be "abnormal". Of course one might argue that it maybe because people are more open and display their preferences publicly, however I still feel that the number had increased because there is support for such behavior.
Of course people may be born as abnormal with XXY chrom. However even as such, these people still have a choice to lead normal or abnormal lives. Personally I know of a few sissy people who still get married and give birth to babies. This is also the case for girls who are extremely tomboyish.
Another issue is, if these gay couple are allowed to adopt children, will they set as a bad example for these children ? I mean most likely that child, if it is a male, will end up to be gay too.
Question is, is it good for society to have more gays and lesbians or more normal people ?
- Through these simple reasons (thereÂ’s more complicated economic terms which I prefer not to go into, so its pretty much in layman and logical reasonings) one can deduct that gay people are just as beneficial to the society as normal people.
Like I said, love is blind... -
Hmm.. i don't think it's a disease or whatever..
Neither is it a trend. I think there is a huge population of gays in countries where it is restrictive and prohibited -> Singapore.
But because it is accepted, they are louder and more open.
Guys, just look at how many people are waiting to get into Taboo and hanging around Ang Siang Hill on Sunday nights.. Hell.. any night or day. They are around. -
what i think..
Its a matter of freedom for individuals.. maybe even talking about human rights.. i do not think its right.. to the point that if there is going to be a rally outside parliament building on this one i will join in.. culture or not i think such homo behaviour have been around for ages.. and yet this has not been really "banned" and homo's made to conform.. the general consensus is that most are rather indifferent. To the point that, there are no anti-gay/ lesbian policies to discourange this sort of thing. not long ago, GCT said that they are gays working in govt.. so what does this say? i think govt here and abroad are afraid of crossing that line to ban it altogether and maybe even knowing that establishing such bans will not be useful all the same... also knowing that such acts are not really going to kill anyone and make people lesser in anyway.. maybe the population policies wont work anymore but still its not like ethnic cleansing crimes..
last word.. no no no no for me.. -
hehe...read teh New York Times...
Dear old Bush is trying to push a constitutional ban on same-sex marriages, hoping to get votes for another term of presidency... -
Yeah but he's a texan red neck!Originally posted by pikamaster:hehe...read teh New York Times...
Dear old Bush is trying to push a constitutional ban on same-sex marriages, hoping to get votes for another term of presidency... -
I have read all the comments on this topic and I am just shocked by the ignorance and intolarance some people have towards gays and lesbians in society. Some of you talk about how 'society' cannot accept it, but who is deciding this? You?
In Singapore we are proud to say we are multiracial and multicultural yet a simple idea of acceptance and respect for diversty and people seem to be lacking. Is it right for anyone to place judgement on what goes on in the bedrooms of anyone. How if I said that I dont like the fact that some snore while they sleep and we as 'society' should stop this by reforming them, by putting them on the medical table and carve a bigger nostrail for the snorers so that they can be like 'us'.
Who are you to say that one should not do something because you dont like it. Have gays and lesbians harm you in anyway? Have they hurt your sense of identity? (maybe you are a closet then) The problem I have with the commentors (some of them) is that you all need to understand that the whole concept of being multicultural is that we accept everyone and respect their way of life.
I think if SG does not find ways to accept ALL people equally (be it skin colour or sexual orientation), we are going to be an oppressive society like the States. What is so scary about gay marriages? Personally I do not know. All I know is that if my gay friends were to get married, I will celebrate they joy and love.
All religions preach of love and peace, yet people like you, the hate starters, the gay bashers, the self righteous and 'civilised' bunch, are killing the others who just want to be equally accepted in society and are struggling to be heard, where years of senseless fear and discrimination has created a world filled with selfish firestarters.
Preech love not hate. Personally, those who truely condamn gay marriages should be the ones selected to be resocialised to respect and love again. Dont talk about how society does not accept it. Activism should start at the individual level, so make it clear do u accept it or not, because I am part of society and I do accept gay marriages and I do not want to be part of your hateful scam. -
SGglobalist,
I didn't read anyone say one should hate gays.In fact,they give a very good analysis on this issue. -
SgGlobalist , u are right to say that change starts from the individual.
but we cannot ignore the fact that THIS society needs more information to balance the centuries of deeply entrenched homophobic discourse.
it is unfair of u to accuse people who are addressing the complexities of this situation of participating in a "hateful scam".
and are u sure all religion preaches unconditional love and acceptance?
christianity is overtly hostile to homosexuality, as is islam. christianity, i would venture, wasn't always so... but how it came to be is best left to another discussion... its a long, tedious history.
confucian-taoism is homophobic as well. again, long, tedious history best left to another discussion...
theravada buddhism offers a more nuanced view towards sex and sexuality, but i've never heard it said out loud today that they unconditionally accept homosexuality. why? cultural cross-fertilization... that's why...
in this modern rojak globalised world, beliefs have been mixing and matching in a most bizarre manner for over 200 years... and one aspect that has permeated every culture and religion in the process, is homophobia.
and this is not an automatic, self-evident process... powerful ideologies were at work all this while.
i am one who believes that the modern notion of sexuality and sexual norms are not natural categories, but artificial constructs. unfortunately, constructs become concrete over time for many pple.
until we can properly understand that, i don't think "universal love" is a compelling enough argument to change the opinions of minds who had always believed that they are correct in denouncing homosexuality.