Singapore as first world-Lee's personal dream?
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I think it's SM Lee's personal ambition to turn Singapore from a third world to a first one. You should watch his proud speech when Singapore detached from Malaysia. He vowed to turn Singapore into a metropolis within a short span of time. At what costs? I agree that the living std is high but so are the costs. We live in highly stressed enviroment and we pay so much. I hope it's not just personal pride to bring S'pore to a greater height but for the greater good of Singaporeans. I am beginning to doubt this when so many citizens and netizens here start to lament and complain against the Lee empire. Is it a family or personal business or is it Singaporeans' business? Are negative opinions suppressed so that plans for S'pore are not derailed? What do you all think?
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juz imagine if not him ... do you think you can complain over tat sgForums? at the comfort of your house or some high standard of cybercafe?
likely you will still use dialups? -
I am still using dialups! Not everybody as rich as you okay! I don't go to cybercafes unless necessary, but I must admit there is internet freedom here.Originally posted by antoh:juz imagine if not him ... do you think you can complain over tat sgForums? at the comfort of your house or some high standard of cybercafe?
likely you will still use dialups? -
okay lah at least got progress here n there enough for complaint if no complaint meant no freedom of speech surely
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I can't remember which BBC show LKY was interviewed on years ago, and the interviewer asked him, "Did you ever anticipate Singapore being such a success when you first started out as Prime Minister?". LKY's response was something like, "All I wanted to do was make a comfortable life for myself and my family - it's not my fault that the rest of the country came along". I think that says it all, and he's even put it out into the open.
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Hello! Nobody owes anybody not even LKY anythingOriginally posted by antoh:juz imagine if not him ... do you think you can complain over tat sgForums? at the comfort of your house or some high standard of cybercafe?
likely you will still use dialups?
There is no free lunch in S'pore! My ancestors and parents work very hard and I also work like shit I am still poor compared to others. You need to be damn poor to qualify for social assistance and they give you peanuts 
Maybe those on welfare really owe the nation something but not me!! Thanks to him we are living in a highly stressed place! Thanks to him we are in first world and still have third world pay -
that sounds very tongue in cheek though.Originally posted by Gedanken:I can't remember which BBC show LKY was interviewed on years ago, and the interviewer asked him, "Did you ever anticipate Singapore being such a success when you first started out as Prime Minister?". LKY's response was something like, "All I wanted to do was make a comfortable life for myself and my family - it's not my fault that the rest of the country came along". I think that says it all, and he's even put it out into the open. -
Yes it is, nismos, but then again, what better place is there to hide something than in the open?
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It is typical LKY style when dealing with Foreigners, especially with the British which he has vast experience due to his years in Cambridge. His response will be quite different when the same question is posed in an Asian setting.Originally posted by Gedanken:Yes it is, nismos, but then again, what better place is there to hide something than in the open?
It very much depends on the audience that his reply is intended, never take him completely at his words - especially from someone that is expert in moving goal posts.
Singapore's arrival as a First World status was never an accident, not when Goh Chok Tong intended for Singapore to achieve a Swiss Standard of Living by the time he steps down - as was his stated goal when taking office in 1990.
Other then the external facade of a First World - with the seemingly high standards of living as reflected in modern transportation, high quality of buildings, high standards of education, high quality of living conditions, and what else that are viewed superficially - we should also look deeper into the substance of the First World that Singaporeans are supposed to be enjoying.
Are the substance of the modern transportation tangible and what costs do Singaporeans pay or absorb with their wages ?
What price do Singaporeans pay for the Real Estate or Properties that they own ?
What values and qualities has the seemingly high standard of education produced in the graduates from the various levels of educational institutions ?
What price do Singaporeans pay for the seemingly high standards of living condition that we are supposed to enjoy ?
How do all these factor into the Quality of Life of Singaporeans ?
The First World Status that Singapore has been bestowed was a result of the LARGE RESERVES that the Singapore Treasury has accumulated, and which elevated the PER CAPITA INCOME of Singaporeans to be second in Asia when compared to Japan.
However, the average PER CAPITA INCOME is not reflective of the average Singaporean income.
Although the income has been regularly and annually pushed upwards, it is hardly based on any real productive output similar to the Swiss or the Japanese, both of which has a large capacity to be innovative and technologically creative and productive.
Are we truly a First World material as matters stand, or are we living in a Virtual Reality of a First World - which like a house built from a deck of cards, seems to collapse at the slightest sneeze from the environment ? -
Being a first world country primarily depends on GDP and reserve levels. However, economists never rely on simply 1 factor, even though they do in judging countries lol. On paper, and by judging from GDP and reserve levels, Singapore is 1st world nation material, if one only limits his sight thus short. But from a social point of view, Singapore does not measure the mark for leisure time and certain freedoms. However, the people of the UN dont see it because they dont live in Singapore, most judges do not participate in what they are judging so they cannot know. Furthermore, Singapore's ills are masqueraded by tall glass buildings, cars, high tech substations, hospitals and other stuff. Look at Singapore's unemployment rate and silly laws, decide for yourselves how best to judge Singapore as a possible 1st world nation.
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Yes give the man the credit for a better life we have, create nothing to 3rd world to 1st world................but he forgotten about the people.....he left the citizen in the 3rd world. Only foreigners are 1st world & deserves better pay, treatement & Kawtows.
The charge us 1st world rates...housing, transport & etc....but demand we recieve 3rd world's pay.......... -
What? You mean without LKY there'll be no sgforums, no Internet no Cybercafes and no high-speed internet connections?Originally posted by antoh:juz imagine if not him ... do you think you can complain over tat sgForums? at the comfort of your house or some high standard of cybercafe?
likely you will still use dialups?
Get one thing into that skull of yours: The credit for Singapores success is due mainly to the hard work of the first generation of Singaporeans. Not LKY's. Without the efforts of these Singaporeans Singapore under LKY would have achieved NOTHING.
By lumping Singapore's success into LKY's court means you're discrediting the efforts of all first generation Singaporeans, including probably your parents'. Think about that -
Well said men_@_arms, for too long the local propaganda rags have given the impression that economic achievements are all there are to Singapores ascendancy into First World status, and the majority of sheep in Singapore are too happy to lap that up, which itself promotes a sense of false pride that is increasingly seen as arrogance overseas. But I digress.Originally posted by men_@_arms:Being a first world country primarily depends on GDP and reserve levels. However, economists never rely on simply 1 factor, even though they do in judging countries lol. On paper, and by judging from GDP and reserve levels, Singapore is 1st world nation material, if one only limits his sight thus short. But from a social point of view, Singapore does not measure the mark for leisure time and certain freedoms. However, the people of the UN dont see it because they dont live in Singapore, most judges do not participate in what they are judging so they cannot know. Furthermore, Singapore's ills are masqueraded by tall glass buildings, cars, high tech substations, hospitals and other stuff. Look at Singapore's unemployment rate and silly laws, decide for yourselves how best to judge Singapore as a possible 1st world nation.
Unfortunately, being the frogs-in-wells many here are, we do not understand that being First World means more than that. We bask in self-congratulation, think we've made it. But the fact is due to the either short-sighted or deliberate policies by those in charge, what we've had are ridiculous First World Cost of Living, 2nd World (if there's such a thing) wage system and arguably Standard of Living but with a Third World political system and worse Third World mentality and attitudes among most of the population..
A developed economy? No. First World Nation? An emphatic NO!! -
Yea, his world became Third World to First World. The citizens are left somewhere in between, while his and the people's mentality are still stuck in the Third World. Sad isn't it?Originally posted by euphratis:Yes give the man the credit for a better life we have, create nothing to 3rd world to 1st world................but he forgotten about the people.....he left the citizen in the 3rd world. Only foreigners are 1st world & deserves better pay, treatement & Kawtows.
The charge us 1st world rates...housing, transport & etc....but demand we recieve 3rd world's pay..........
I won't call it 3rd World pay, but there undoubtedly a gap between the costs of living against what we are being paid here. -
Well said, men_@_arms. Singapore's economy has matured, but certainly on a political and social level, Singapore's stil a child.Originally posted by men_@_arms:Being a first world country primarily depends on GDP and reserve levels. However, economists never rely on simply 1 factor, even though they do in judging countries lol. On paper, and by judging from GDP and reserve levels, Singapore is 1st world nation material, if one only limits his sight thus short. But from a social point of view, Singapore does not measure the mark for leisure time and certain freedoms. However, the people of the UN dont see it because they dont live in Singapore, most judges do not participate in what they are judging so they cannot know. Furthermore, Singapore's ills are masqueraded by tall glass buildings, cars, high tech substations, hospitals and other stuff. Look at Singapore's unemployment rate and silly laws, decide for yourselves how best to judge Singapore as a possible 1st world nation. -
freudian slip?Originally posted by nismoS132:that sounds very tongue in cheek though.
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i think men@arms has whacked the nail in the head...
we have people in privileged positions, sitting in their ivory towers, telling the people that they have to live with their lot..
will it end in them yelling at us "Well.. Let them eat CAKE!!"?
i wonder if it is possible to make every minister live 2 months of the year without their cars driven for them.. live like the normal man does.. on a "wage" of $1.5k and taking public transport to work?
they'd probably curl up in a fetal position crying to their secret minders in about 2 days..
but i digress...
i just wonder how long will the people take it? and how long until the ivory towers come tumbling down? -
thanks. It feels good to be accepted and recognised.
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Wow it's a great exchange of ideas. Now I get the point. Sorry for starting the LKY and PAP bashing here. I am already resigned to my fate here unless God does a miracle. You all won't understand how I survive in Singapore. Must be a miracle from God. I think we need miracles to survive here. I can say I understand how an operational staff with $1.5k survive and suffer bcos I was one. Now I am jobless and depending on the many miracles that God has given me. Maybe I will make it rich by God's grace. Maybe I will never make it and live to see the light of day. God bless you all and continue to pray for Singapore! We really need God's help.
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Didn't the PAP outlaw acts of God back in the early 90's?
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Really? Hahaha...Originally posted by Gedanken:Didn't the PAP outlaw acts of God back in the early 90's?
They are a real secular lot but it has to be. Hahaha... -
PAINFUL now, isn't it? Of what many have commented here, I'll always remember his GOAL and SAYING...Originally posted by the Bear:i think men@arms has whacked the nail in the head...
we have people in privileged positions, sitting in their ivory towers, telling the people that they have to live with their lot..
will it end in them yelling at us "Well.. Let them eat CAKE!!"?
i wonder if it is possible to make every minister live 2 months of the year without their cars driven for them.. live like the normal man does.. on a "wage" of $1.5k and taking public transport to work?
they'd probably curl up in a fetal position crying to their secret minders in about 2 days..
but i digress...
i just wonder how long will the people take it? and how long until the ivory towers come tumbling down?
"The RICH would get RICHER and the POOR would get POORER. SIngaporeans should learn to TOLERATE that."
1st of all, MANY of us are not sitting in the 'comfortable seats'. We WORK, we SWEAT and we get SH|T.... And while we can be TOLD that we shouldn't be CHOOSY about our jobs, just wondering why can't more be done to make what we're getting paid for more equivalent to what we're DOING?
And it doesn't matter if we're in the 1st world or the 3rd world for some aspects. Ultimately, there'll be at least 2 CLASS of people. The RICH and POWERFUL who are riding over the others' heads and the POOR stepping stones. As demonstrated in many countries. PEACE can never really be a word used to describe a country of such. It can be 'CONTROLLED' in a way by an IRON FIST... Yes. Very much like what we're seeing now in Singapore. Probably that's the IDEA?
And it also DOESN'T MATTER what you've been TOLD and what you SEE. As most of us who have been in Singapore for years should have known by now... It's very 'SURFACE'. Things just for the sake of being seen or heard. You being told? Doesn't matter as we can always come up with a different story altogether later... By the time we're done, you can just carry on complaining like we care? Got to understand... Who's IN CHARGE here? -
Nice dragon you got.Originally posted by Devil1976:PAINFUL now, isn't it? Of what many have commented here, I'll always remember his GOAL and SAYING...
"The RICH would get RICHER and the POOR would get POORER. SIngaporeans should learn to TOLERATE that."
1st of all, MANY of us are not sitting in the 'comfortable seats'. We WORK, we SWEAT and we get SH|T.... And while we can be TOLD that we shouldn't be CHOOSY about our jobs, just wondering why can't more be done to make what we're getting paid for more equivalent to what we're DOING?
And it doesn't matter if we're in the 1st world or the 3rd world for some aspects. Ultimately, there'll be at least 2 CLASS of people. The RICH and POWERFUL who are riding over the others' heads and the POOR stepping stones. As demonstrated in many countries. PEACE can never really be a word used to describe a country of such. It can be 'CONTROLLED' in a way by an IRON FIST... Yes. Very much like what we're seeing now in Singapore. Probably that's the IDEA?
And it also DOESN'T MATTER what you've been TOLD and what you SEE. As most of us who have been in Singapore for years should have known by now... It's very 'SURFACE'. Things just for the sake of being seen or heard. You being told? Doesn't matter as we can always come up with a different story altogether later... By the time we're done, you can just carry on complaining like we care? Got to understand... Who's IN CHARGE here?
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welcome to Lee's pte ltd.Originally posted by Gedanken:I can't remember which BBC show LKY was interviewed on years ago, and the interviewer asked him, "Did you ever anticipate Singapore being such a success when you first started out as Prime Minister?". LKY's response was something like, "All I wanted to do was make a comfortable life for myself and my family - it's not my fault that the rest of the country came along". I think that says it all, and he's even put it out into the open.
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Only the POOR and the JOBLESS would complain about the government... well, this is the sad fact abt mankind is that survival of the fittest - if u are not capable to earn the 1st world pay and all u did is to complain instead of working on how to improve your current situation, then u deserve to starve~!! where in the world that u can find a perfect place to stay?? by all means u can "pursue" ur 1st world standard of living there .... thou me agree that no complain no improvement... hee hee...