It's about bleedin' time!
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Got home today to find a pamphlet titled "Jihad: The True Islamic Concept" slipped under my dooe. It quotes the writings of Hadrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to show how the "use of force is totally forbidden in matters of faith".
Hot damn! It's about time the moderate Muslims spoke up. They're probably the most well-placed people to deal with negative public perception of Islam, and also to work against the recruitment of followers of Islam to radical causes. -
not that i wanna split hair, but what exactly is the image of a "moderate muslim" to us? to the gov't? to muslims?Originally posted by Gedanken:Got home today to find a pamphlet titled "Jihad: The True Islamic Concept" slipped under my dooe. It quotes the writings of Hadrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to show how the "use of force is totally forbidden in matters of faith".
Hot damn! It's about time the moderate Muslims spoke up. They're probably the most well-placed people to deal with negative public perception of Islam, and also to work against the recruitment of followers of Islam to radical causes.
my guess is that there's a difference in understanding and perception and until there is a proper understanding of what it means to call a muslim a "moderate" vis a vis an "extremist", it can really lead to some misunderstandings and hurt those who would preach a more tolerant, non-violent interpretation of Islam.
for instance, a "moderate" muslim might appear to his more conservative (but not necessarily violent) comrades as a "bad" muslim... -
Good point, CX. I expect that most people called Yitzhak Rabin a moderate, but the guy who squeezed the trigger saw him as a traitor.
For argument's sake, I would operationalise a moderate as one who focuses upon the teachings of the religion, rather than on the relationship between the religion and outside groups. The radicals, on the other hand, focus upon other groups, often advocating violence or separation. -
hmm... i view the so-called moderate muslims as those who are actually faithful muslims.
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Interesting points of view concerning the identity of a Moderate Muslim.
To understand the difference between Moderation and Radicalism, we will need to understand the motivation to be either one or the other.
Whether one is a Muslim, Christian, Catholic, Budhist, Taoist, or a Jew, there will be those who are quietly religious, practising the faith and spreading the gospel truth of their faith - all done with a pure Religious purpose.
At the other end of the spectrum, we can also see the Pro-Active Radicals, impatient with the status quo of their religious existence, who will take up the cudgel to be active in matters of society.
These faithfuls believe that a religion is all encompassing in one's Life, and truly believe that a religion should not be confined to one's Religious Behaviour, but the entire Behaviour of One's Being that will extend into the realms of Politics, Social, Communal, Cultural norms.
While some religious faithfuls involve themselves into the political actions without the use of their Religious Standards, others will demand the use of their Faith as a Guiding Light and impose such standards on the non-Faithfuls. This is where the faithful differ.
There will be the extreme radical groups that will resort to extreme action, and we see these Radicals not only in Islam - with their Jihadis, but also in the Christian Faith too - as seen in the Shining Path guerilla groups of Peru, Ku Klax Klan in USA, and any other Religious Action Groups operating on the fringes of Society.
These Radicals are quite intelligent people, who have the intelligence to twist complex religious issues into simple reasons to justify the cause for their radical actions.
These Radicals have super-egos that society have no room to receive or accomodate them, and their only recourse is to shake the world and find space in any place that can be found.
Will 'Moderates' operate in similar fashion, when Human Reason takes precedence over the mind, and determine one's actions ? -
agreed.
fa lun gong are "buddhist" extremists.
remember the christian extremists who firebombed mosques in indonesia awhile back?
or how about belfast back in e 80s, when the protestant terrorists clashed with the catholic terrorists? -
er........ i thought this was a thread about periods in the politics section
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Interesting points Atobe. In answer to your question above, I don't think so. The moderates' game is defensive, while the radicals' is offensive. While the radicals go out and stir the people into a frenzy, the moderates have to work much harder to not only get to the people ahead of the radicals, but to instill the much quieter voice of reason in them so that it overrides the emotions that the radical will try to stir up.Originally posted by Atobe:Will 'Moderates' operate in similar fashion, when Human Reason takes precedence over the mind, and determine one's actions ?
At the end of the day, then, could the distinction be that the moderate appeals primarily to reason while the radical appeals primarily to emotion?
Hey, oldbreadstinks, it's cool - I originally thought Band of Brothers was yet another miniseries about the Jackson Five!
Besides, we've talked about the PAP smear elsewhere already! -
thats the problem.... man made rules. every hot blooded zealots tend to twist their religion and try to bring justice to the twisting..
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Originally posted by Atobe:
thats the problem isn't it? if moderates played by the same rules as extremists to achieve their aims, then we really wouldn't call them "moderates" anymore...
Will 'Moderates' operate in similar fashion, when Human Reason takes precedence over the mind, and determine one's actions ?
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the violent extremists have got one thing right... that violence grabs the public attention to their cause.
and though we may think them misguided, brainwashed and crazy, there's got to be a reason why they're doing this... educated, intelligent pple turning nuts? can't they see that this is a mis-guided cause? can't they see that such behavior is criminal? their ego clouds their better judgement?
are we giving them too little credit by making such assumptions?
they obviously believe in something strongly enough to die for it... post-modern life makes us cynical and jaded, but these pple have something to hold on to, to believe in.
hence, my feeling is not to push for a "moderated", but a progressive intepretation, not just of Islam, but for all religions. one that acknowledges all the complexities of life today and helps pple to seek meaning amongst all the cynicism and materialism...
the solution ( easier said than done ) is not to go back to basics, but to attempt to resolve and accept increasingly messy contradictions.
being more familiar with christianity, i shall limit my examples to that: artificial birth control ( not abortion, but birth control ), which the catholic church has stubbornly forbidden. does that make sense?
not to me it doesn't... u deprive poor pple of contraceptives which can potentially make a big difference to their ability to bring up their children with their already limited resources and tax them with even more children which they (a) may not have wanted and (b) cannot afford! abstainance? please... withdrawal? get real... calculating cycles? as if the female anatomy is a swiss time-piece.
God gives us rain, but we wear raincoats and carry umbrellas don't we?
shouldn't one attempt to reconcile the contradictions progressively instead of sticking so rigidly to old rules which no longer applies? they're not gonna go away just cos the priest, monk or ulama says it doesn't exist.
thats not to say that we should all go wild cos everything that no longer applies is now permissible. the challenge is to see how the old rules apply to new norms. religion and culture should relate to life. not the other way round. -
actually simple saying.....deep in our heart we all don really like malays...and its just that u all don dare to say it out...
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This statement reflects a troubling future for Singapore, and is the result of the education policies that stream and filter out students of different abilities, and resulting in new polarisations into new stratas, classes and social groups of Singaporeans - and all done at a very young age.Originally posted by TheBird`:actually simple saying.....deep in our heart we all don really like malays...and its just that u all don dare to say it out...
Social Engineering do not seem to work despite all the best effort through HDB policies of allotting flats in the mix ratio according to the population numbers of each ethnic groups.
Neither has all the good work at Resident Committees seem to have any effect, as deep set attitudes remain amongst the adult population, and seemed to have filtered into the opinions and minds of those in the present generation - as reflected by 'TheBird'; and those writing in the thread 'Racism in the SAF' in the Military Nuts forum of sgForum.
I am amazed that such a statement should even make into this forum, and wonder if any thought was made before posting. -
Hi Gendaken and CX,
Both of your responses are true to the point in the reality of the situation that is faced by the Moderates and the Radicals.
CX, you are certainly correct in saying that the Radicals are driven by something larger; and that these Radicals are intelligent and educated, misguided they are definitely not, neither are they nuts.
Perhaps the battle ground between the Moderates and the Radicals will be in the Public Domain, with so much publicity being given to the spectacular results of EXTREME ACTIONS by the Radicals, the Moderates will need much help in more publicity being given to their Moderate Cause.
The likes of Osama Bin Laden are frustrated with the status quo of the weakness of the environment - political, social, economic, cultural, religious, - that he found himself in; and which he was powerless to change.
Like Osama Bin Laden, we find also the self-declared Japanese guru - Shoko Asahara of the Aum Shinrikyo - being similarly disillusioned with the status quo of his own environment.
Fortunately, the obviously experimental but murderous gassing was restricted to a Tokyo subway station, and caused minimal consequences compared to the well planned and executed September 11 attack of the WTC Towers in New York City.
Both are intelligent persons, with personal aura that is able to hold the awe of their respectivee followers, with the ability to convince their followers to extreme actions that even result in commanding their followers to their deaths,
Those NORMAL Japanese had responded to the anomaly within their society, and are pressing this painful pimple out of their midst with PRO-ACTIVE and PRE-EMPTIVE Actions.
CX, your are certainly correct that for Islam - and any other Religions - to rid these radicals from their midst, it will require an extra-ordinary effort on the part of the Islamic Leadership to give progressive interpretation of their Religion, so as to help the Faithful Muslims to cope with the changes being experienced in Life of this Modern Age; and to make their Religion relevant to this period of Human History in the Twenty First Century.
It is useless to turn back the clocks, and pretend to live the life of a passed era, ignoring the Science and Technology that exist. -
and isn't it interesting that islamic civilization used to be the centre of progressive thought and innovations? this shows that the faith was not always so narrow and retrogressive.Originally posted by Atobe:It is useless to turn back the clocks, and pretend to live the life of a passed era, ignoring the Science and Technology that exist.
and to the lamer whe posted earlier, racial discrimination is simply the symptom of a shallow, limited mind.
unlike Atobe, i don't attribute this to the failure of the gov't to "socially engineer" u to get along with pple of other ethnicities, i attribute this to your own stupidity and inability to see pple beyond their skin colour, ethnicity and religion. gov't programmes are fallible and less than perfect it might be possible to improve it... but the stupidity and stubborness of an individual got no cure one... u carry on in your own little well then.
think before u post such nonsense here again.