demise of L--K--Y-- (looking forward?)
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yeap i so old i still don't have a chance to vote: actually how many citizens are given a chance to vote???Originally posted by FreeToFly:Common, you still get marked even you are in US or Taiwan or Malaysia speaking against the goverment, but yet, brave souls still fight for it.
Dun find excuses for being a coward.
At least, vote for the opposition, if you don, they will never be strong, never be capable, and will never be a balancing power to check and balance the ruling party.
Is Singaporean that vote to be silent. -
dun find excuses to be a coward??Originally posted by FreeToFly:Common, you still get marked even you are in US or Taiwan or Malaysia speaking against the goverment, but yet, brave souls still fight for it.
Dun find excuses for being a coward.
there's a big diff between coward & being clever ...
brave sould fight for it??
??? i guess people now are living on Jupiter?
if u are a foot soldier with no ammo & u see an batallion of enemy commandos & tanks wat do u do...........
fight if u can win, run & hide if u can't: so simple! -
I m sure if your nation is be battled to the ground, you will be the "last man standing", clever manOriginally posted by mayham321:dun find excuses to be a coward??
there's a big diff between coward & being clever ...
brave sould fight for it??
??? i guess people now are living on Jupiter?
if u are a foot soldier with no ammo & u see an batallion of enemy commandos & tanks wat do u do...........
fight if u can win, run & hide if u can't: so simple!
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Blame your anscestors for making the ruling party so strong.Originally posted by mayham321:yeap i so old i still don't have a chance to vote: actually how many citizens are given a chance to vote??? -
?? heehee i be hiding somewhere safeOriginally posted by FreeToFly:I m sure if your nation is be battled to the ground, you will be the "last man standing", clever man ??
but in reality those who has $$$$$ will all suddenly disappear to other countries .... its people like us who have less $$$ who will be used as pawns to fight rich people's battles! -
mm.. my take on why he stepped in ...Originally posted by shibuya:.......he even has to interfere in an internal affair between SIA and its staff. like trying to make the country dependent on him. he can't seem to let go of power.
......
It was a sensitive time where economy not doing well and many employees in both public and private sectors lost their jobs in retrenchments.
Those who lost their jobs were especially frustrated and angry with unions who were powerless to help their members. They felt betrayed by their unions who suppose to side and intervene on their behalf. Unions themselves also felt demoralised and incompetant.
SIA issues comes into the picture. Pilots - employees of SIA take matters into their own hands starts to threaten the airline almost seems like they will revolt, matters get out of hand, issue reaches the newspaper and public gets knowlege about it.
If you notice in the past any complaints or issue that reaches public in the form of newspaper government definately comes in and lockdown, is always like that. In this case SM Lee steps in immediately.
why?
bcus economic environment already very bad, some more so much competition from india, china etc .. also businesses very bad, companies complaining costs very high.
If nobody from government stepped in and SIA pilots had won and got whatever they demanded it would become a catalyst example for workers in other companies to bypass their unions and follow this lead by herding together and negotiating directly with their employers for better terms and condition and if that happens .... it will be like a revolution everywhere!!
But worse still, if nobody from government stepped in, many foreign companies may interpret that the government unable to keep its promises to control the masses anymore and allow workers to revolt or strike.
They may also view that the environment for doing business may not be so condusive anymore hence more convinced to start packing to cheaper and quieter destinations like china or even malaysia.
0.03 -
Agreed.
He's had the benefit of a first hand look at nation-building. That's why, as long as he's able to, he will not let S'pore get flushed down the toilet. But he won't be around forever. I suppose then it's Hsien Loong's turn to hold the fort. *Shudders* -
Originally posted by panja_v:
Panja, y dun u turn ur attention tot his thread instead, and close the other thread semi-permanently. after all, u r not going to have any new things up there if it is dominated by CX and Socrates (most unphilosophic). whereas down here, u have other "new guys" who seem less tuend in to CX's frequency.
It is definitely the People, the citizens of a country.
It is definitely the institutions, civil service, police, military, courts, press.
Is it definitely the government? I donÂ’t think so.
Thailand had how many change of government during the time Spore Malaysia and Indonesia was under dictatorship? How is Thailand now? Better or worse than Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia?
LKY said I don't know how America can operate; the government seems to be in deadlock all the time. How is America? With constantly deadlocked government that cannot move?
How is ‘debt ridden citizens’, Singapore?
If the Police, Military, Civil Service, Courts were not in cahoots with, for example, Pol Pot, Mao, HitlerÂ…. They would not have succeeded.
This is what makes me so apprehensive about Singapore. The PAP has created an apathetic monstrosity that is the Singapore citizens. Other than the few hundred of us here everyday kPkB, the man in the street? SEE NO EVIL, HEAR NO EVIL, TOUCHÂ…, is it touch? Or something else? BTW, anyhow touch here touch there can get canningÂ…
Can you imagine we have a POL POT taking over PAP? Will the people rise up? Can you imagine we have a similar situation in Uganda and Idi Amin? Will Singaporeans rise up? Knowing that they will be barbecued? Knowing that they will be beheaded like panja_v?
What if we do not have a POL POT or a Hitler, in PAP?
What if we have a Good Intentions, Highly Principled, Ivy League Scholar, who makes decisions in the Best Interests of Singapore that ultimately lead us to doom and destruction? [b]Will good intentions and best interest mitigate the evil?
Any dissenting voices, any warnings and intelligent discussion, as long as dissenting, would have been squashed out. How? Can never happen? You know the song by Gilbert OÂ’ --- it couldnÂ’t happen hereÂ… not in a million yearsÂ…..? It is already happening.
[/b]
it's juz a suggestion, of course...
the enthusiastic pikamaster -
hu said abt teh SDP or the WP? although of course it'll be nice to have them in a coalition. that way, anything done against the coalition will be sth done against the WHOLE oppo, and not juz one or two pple.Originally posted by oldbreadstinks:wilful ?yes
ambitious? maybe
but so? i can be wilful and ambitious too, like thats gonna help in anything, what you're saying now is, to tear down the old broken down house you're living in without another new house builded before that, and with no other house in sight, where are you going to spend the night ?
i have no love for the govt, but to pull it down would be crazy, its pretty obvious the SDP isn't big enough to fill PAP's boots.this isn't another of those games where you can do everything yourself
btw, how abt tearing down the old house and building a new one. the 21st century is abt creating, not abt mindlessly aping the path of our ancestors. if it requires tearing down ancestral halls, so be it!
jeez, everytime someone talks abt how oppo is failing, they talk abt the existing parties only, failing to take into consideration the bigger picture. y has nobody at all suggested forming a new party?
the still wilful pikamaster -
sheesh...do u support this intrusion, or wad?Originally posted by paulho:mm.. my take on why he stepped in ...
It was a sensitive time where economy not doing well and many employees in both public and private sectors lost their jobs in retrenchments.
Those who lost their jobs were especially frustrated and angry with unions who were powerless to help their members. They felt betrayed by their unions who suppose to side and intervene on their behalf. Unions themselves also felt demoralised and incompetant.
SIA issues comes into the picture. Pilots - employees of SIA take matters into their own hands starts to threaten the airline almost seems like they will revolt, matters get out of hand, issue reaches the newspaper and public gets knowlege about it.
If you notice in the past any complaints or issue that reaches public in the form of newspaper government definately comes in and lockdown, is always like that. In this case SM Lee steps in immediately.
why?
bcus economic environment already very bad, some more so much competition from india, china etc .. also businesses very bad, companies complaining costs very high.
If nobody from government stepped in and SIA pilots had won and got whatever they demanded it would become a catalyst example for workers in other companies to bypass their unions and follow this lead by herding together and negotiating directly with their employers for better terms and condition and if that happens .... it will be like a revolution everywhere!!
But worse still, if nobody from government stepped in, many foreign companies may interpret that the government unable to keep its promises to control the masses anymore and allow workers to revolt or strike.
They may also view that the environment for doing business may not be so condusive anymore hence more convinced to start packing to cheaper and quieter destinations like china or even malaysia.
0.03 -
only pple stuck in ivory towers will think such a gross fallacy!Originally posted by dumbdumb!:they don't. they are just full of talk, and hot air. biatch and biatch like an overgrown wuss.
they don't even hv a reason to complain, don't know what is their problem
juz becasue u dun know someone's problem does not mean that they dun have a problem.
so, u think only the complainers are full of biatch and hot air? FYI, u r full of those too, and likewise so are the conservatives like CX and Socrates. if only you pple wud wake up from your Emerald Dreams and see reality!
the dissappointed pikamaster -
ever walked down a coffesshop?Originally posted by oldbreadstinks:i don't think its most pap flamers , its just 4-5 who are doing that
and as for your "bus driver", i would very much prefer to have a choice as to which bus i'm riding on
anyway, juz because the vocal ones are a minority, does not mean tha tthe others do not share similar sentiments.
u r naive if you think that. -
you seem to have a natural talent for getting people to flame you for your stupidityOriginally posted by pikamaster:ever walked down a coffesshop?
anyway, juz because the vocal ones are a minority, does not mean tha tthe others do not share similar sentiments.
u r naive if you think that.
ever tried to read everything before quoting?
"boy" for your info, i was refering to this forum, and the people i am refering to by the "4-5" are those who do nothing other then rant all the time about tearing the house down and going fuuk this fuuk that, this sucks that sucks without any reasons given other then "i'm right and anyone who disagree is wrong"
why? are you trying to join the club?Originally posted by pikamaster:
a coalition.does not mean they'll have a higher chance of winning, they'll still be labeled "opo" and thats how the public sees them
hu said abt teh SDP or the WP? although of course it'll be nice to have them in a coalition. that way, anything done against the coalition will be sth done against the [b]WHOLE oppo, and not juz one or two pple.
btw, how abt tearing down the old house and building a new one. the 21st century is abt creating, not abt mindlessly aping the path of our ancestors. if it requires tearing down ancestral halls, so be it!
jeez, everytime someone talks abt how oppo is failing, they talk abt the existing parties only, failing to take into consideration the bigger picture. y has nobody at all suggested forming a new party?
the still wilful pikamaster[/b]
and if you want , you can tear down your own ancestral halls, leave everyone elses out of it, not everyone wants to tear things down
there is always a possiblity of building a new one without tearing down the old one
and about forming a new party, i've answered why it won't work above -
kindly direct me to the exact post. I checked the entire thread, and i can't find a single post where you explained that. n anyway, i expect it will be some thinking-in-the-box answer.Originally posted by oldbreadstinks:a coalition.does not mean they'll have a higher chance of winning, they'll still be labeled "opo" and thats how the public sees them
and if you want , you can tear down your own ancestral halls, leave everyone elses out of it, not everyone wants to tear things down
there is always a possiblity of building a new one without tearing down the old one
and about forming a new party, i've answered why it won't work above
in renovating anyway, u do have to tear down, dun u?
u might want to define "opo". but anyway, the difference will be that teh public sees their unity and perseverance to fight toward sth, and anyway since it hasn't been tried yet, how can u predict the result so fast?
the new party, anyway, should be a party with no partisan aims, one that is focused on a purpose rather than an agenda. it shouls be a party only in the legal sense of teh word, and nothing more. it must shed all corporatist philosophy, the inherent greed in capitalism, but must not fall to communist fundamentalism.
hope u understand me better.
seen my motto, anyway? i expect pple flame me because what i say contradicts their inner beliefs, like Pnaja_V or shibuaya or the other guy at teh Death penalty thread. my only hope is for them to see the light and heal this bitter world.
the pikamaster
P.S.: i really have no hidden AGENDA.[/b] -
Originally posted by pikamaster:
1.go though the parts infront of my post and read them all together
kindly direct me to the exact post. I checked the entire thread, and i can't find a single post where you explained that. n anyway, i expect it will be some thinking-in-the-box answer.
in renovating anyway, u do have to tear down, dun u?
u might want to define "opo". but anyway, the difference will be that teh public sees their unity and perseverance to fight toward sth, and anyway since it hasn't been tried yet, how can u predict the result so fast?
the new party, anyway, should be a party with no partisan aims, one that is focused on a [b]purpose rather than an agenda. it shouls be a party only in the legal sense of teh word, and nothing more. it must shed all corporatist philosophy, the inherent greed in capitalism, but must not fall to communist fundamentalism.
hope u understand me better.
seen my motto, anyway? i expect pple flame me because what i say contradicts their inner beliefs, like Pnaja_V or shibuaya or the other guy at teh Death penalty thread. my only hope is for them to see the light and heal this bitter world.
the pikamaster
P.S.: i really have no hidden AGENDA.[/b][/b]
2.people normally don't tear down houses to renovate
3.i'm not predicting the result, i'm telling you what had happened before will happen again
4.i do not get your idea about "a party only in the legal sense of teh word, and nothing more. "
pls explain
but you have an idea that i do not think would work,
communism fundamentalism would always be used to attract votes
greed in capitalism, without greed\hungry for more i really don't see how a small country like ours can move forward
and as for your motto, what an apt choice of words, "dare to disturb the universe"? who wouldn't expect flamings with that? "disturb" shows us how your thinking goes, if you had choosed "dare to question the universe" wouldn't that have attracted less unwanted attention? -
1) will do that when i ahve the time.Originally posted by oldbreadstinks:1.go though the parts infront of my post and read them all together
2.people normally don't tear down houses to renovate
3.i'm not predicting the result, i'm telling you what had happened before will happen again
4.i do not get your idea about "a party only in the legal sense of teh word, and nothing more. "
pls explain
but you have an idea that i do not think would work,
communism fundamentalism would always be used to attract votes
greed in capitalism, without greed\hungry for more i really don't see how a small country like ours can move forward
and as for your motto, what an apt choice of words, "dare to disturb the universe"? who wouldn't expect flamings with that? "disturb" shows us how your thinking goes, if you had choosed "dare to question the universe" wouldn't that have attracted less unwanted attention?
2) in order to replace certain parts of the house, u have to tear them down, don't you? no, i dun mean tearign down the whole house, if that is wad u have been thinking
3)what makes u so sure that what happened before will happen again? this is the attitude which hinders progress. overboard pessimism. believeing excessively in the slippery road.
4)ok, i guess i have to elaborate here.
the new party would be a party as in it would be a group of people running for election, but it would not operate in the same way a normal political party does, without all teh propagandist agitation (agitprop) [yes, that exists in capitalist countries too].
hunger for more != greed! of course, one must one to better himself, butt eh difference between teh former and the latter is that the latter seeks to do it at teh expense of others. Kiasuism is a minor form of greed, in fact.
btw, do u think PAP used communist fundamentalism to attract votes?
the pikamaster
P.S.: as for my motto:
you can question without getting the answer. in order to attain answers, you must disturb the universe. and by teh way i talk alot in metaphor, so dun try and take everything too literally like "the tearing down of ancestral halls", k?
overall, i think u r still much more rational than CX and Socrates. pardon me if I ever said soemthing opposite of that. -
2.noOriginally posted by pikamaster:2) in order to replace certain parts of the house, u have to tear them down, don't you? no, i dun mean tearign down the whole house, if that is wad u have been thinking
3)what makes u so sure that what happened before will happen again? this is the attitude which hinders progress. overboard pessimism. believeing excessively in the slippery road.
4)ok, i guess i have to elaborate here.
the new party would be a party as in it would be a group of people running for election, but it would not operate in the same way a normal political party does, without all teh propagandist agitation (agitprop) [yes, that exists in capitalist countries too].
hunger for more != greed! of course, one must one to better himself, butt eh difference between teh former and the latter is that the latter seeks to do it at teh expense of others. Kiasuism is a minor form of greed, in fact.
btw, do u think PAP used communist fundamentalism to attract votes?
the pikamaster
P.S.: as for my motto:
you can question without getting the answer. in order to attain answers, you must disturb the universe. and by teh way i talk alot in metaphor, so dun try and take everything too literally like "the tearing down of ancestral halls", k?
overall, i think u r still much more rational than CX and Socrates. pardon me if I ever said soemthing opposite of that.
3.its because short of something drastic singaporeans will never change, thats obvious enough to see
4.that will not work, i'll put it this way, look at all the singers out in the streets without the chance to make it big even if they can sing well, what they need is someone to spend money to promote them, to give them publicity, without that , it would take a miracle to suceed in the music industry
for the pap, what they have done is to let the population know enough to support them
look at the opo, all everyone knows about them is that they have scandal plagued politicians and they're against the pap
what else do we know? nothing at all
and what you're suggesting is to create something similar
and the pap isn't using communist fundamentalism to attract votes, they are communist , just that no one wants to admit it -
talking about MOI?Originally posted by pikamaster:Panja, y dun u turn ur attention tot his thread instead, and close the other thread semi-permanently. after all, u r not going to have any new things up there if it is dominated by CX and Socrates (most unphilosophic). whereas down here, u have other "new guys" who seem less tuend in to CX's frequency.
it's juz a suggestion, of course...
the enthusiastic pikamaster
i'm everywhere BOY... as long as there's stupidity to be found... don't worry... i address the issues, not the person. it is just unfortunate that narrow-minded pple keep trying to bring up the same lame points...
no need me to say more... u're already on your way to starting another storm in your proverbial teacup... and spoiling another thread in the process...
sigh... -
i've said this before in another thread... it was conveniently ignored cos nobody seems to wants to acknowledge the fact that though the system is flawed, changing it is essentially a long term process and not a magic fix.
u're talking period of time to build a new opposition, for that oppostion to gain visibility, to win an election to get a toe-hold, to hold that beach-head and actually succeed in gaining a more significant number of seats... probably not outright majority, but enough to challenge the 2/3 majority... THAT is change but so easy ah?
LKY's demise is not gonna change anything! the pap didn't get this far by placing all their bets on one old man... they've been renewing themselves, entrenching themselves all this time!
the battle is NOT going to be won by ah peks talking loud in coffee shops. it is NOT going to be won by disgruntled losers posting in internet forums. it is NOT going to be won by young punk idealists pissing around with ideas they can barely understand.
it is going to be fought by pple very much like those who are currently in power: educated, experienced elites.
here's something to chew on... what if: old man passes on. pap splits in 2... next election, one of the camps wins a significant number of seats and challenges the other camp's majority, forces a coalition.
many things will still be the same... people might still be the same... issues are still the same... minesterial salaries are still gonna be high ... except that the gov't will have to factor in the other side's interests (not necessarily the people's too...) and will be restrained in its abilities to bulldoze legislation and enforce policies...
but sometimes, there are no right or wrong decisions... only strong or weak ones. u can have weakly enforced good policies, or strongly enforced bad policies... its actually a bit less confusing to have the latter.
change... what a nice word... i want it too... but i wonder if the rest of the country is prepared for it. i'm not anti-change. but it is important to know what we're asking for and how it might come.
i can make the sacrifices... i'm easy... no attachments, no debts. dare we speak for everyone else?
so what does that make me? a conservative? no... a pragmatist... face it... whatever works. labels don't matter. -
Originally posted by CX:
only way i can see a sg w\o pap is for pap to collaspe in on itself
i've said this before in another thread... it was conveniently ignored cos nobody seems to wants to acknowledge the fact that though the system is flawed, [b]changing it is essentially a long term process and not a magic fix.
u're talking period of time to build a new opposition, for that oppostion to gain visibility, to win an election to get a toe-hold, to hold that beach-head and actually succeed in gaining a more significant number of seats... probably not outright majority, but enough to challenge the 2/3 majority... THAT is change but so easy ah?
LKY's demise is not gonna change anything! the pap didn't get this far by placing all their bets on one old man... they've been renewing themselves, entrenching themselves all this time!
the battle is NOT going to be won by ah peks talking loud in coffee shops. it is NOT going to be won by disgruntled losers posting in internet forums. it is NOT going to be won by young punk idealists pissing around with ideas they can barely understand.
it is going to be fought by pple very much like those who are currently in power: educated, experienced elites.
here's something to chew on... what if: old man passes on. pap splits in 2... next election, one of the camps wins a significant number of seats and challenges the other camp's majority, forces a coalition.
many things will still be the same... people might still be the same... issues are still the same... minesterial salaries are still gonna be high ... except that the gov't will have to factor in the other side's interests (not necessarily the people's too...) and will be restrained in its abilities to bulldoze legislation and enforce policies...
but sometimes, there are no right or wrong decisions... only strong or weak ones. u can have weakly enforced good policies, or strongly enforced bad policies... its actually a bit less confusing to have the latter.
change... what a nice word... i want it too... but i wonder if the rest of the country is prepared for it. i'm not anti-change. but it is important to know what we're asking for and how it might come.
i can make the sacrifices... i'm easy... no attachments, no debts. dare we speak for everyone else?
so what does that make me? a conservative? no... a pragmatist... face it... whatever works. labels don't matter.
[/b]
not that that would be a good thing -
Originally posted by CX:
excessive pragmatism is the guise of conservatism.
i've said this before in another thread... it was conveniently ignored cos nobody seems to wants to acknowledge the fact that though the system is flawed, [b]changing it is essentially a long term process and not a magic fix.
u're talking period of time to build a new opposition, for that oppostion to gain visibility, to win an election to get a toe-hold, to hold that beach-head and actually succeed in gaining a more significant number of seats... probably not outright majority, but enough to challenge the 2/3 majority... THAT is change but so easy ah?
LKY's demise is not gonna change anything! the pap didn't get this far by placing all their bets on one old man... they've been renewing themselves, entrenching themselves all this time!
the battle is NOT going to be won by ah peks talking loud in coffee shops. it is NOT going to be won by disgruntled losers posting in internet forums. it is NOT going to be won by young punk idealists pissing around with ideas they can barely understand.
it is going to be fought by pple very much like those who are currently in power: educated, experienced elites.
here's something to chew on... what if: old man passes on. pap splits in 2... next election, one of the camps wins a significant number of seats and challenges the other camp's majority, forces a coalition.
many things will still be the same... people might still be the same... issues are still the same... minesterial salaries are still gonna be high ... except that the gov't will have to factor in the other side's interests (not necessarily the people's too...) and will be restrained in its abilities to bulldoze legislation and enforce policies...
but sometimes, there are no right or wrong decisions... only strong or weak ones. u can have weakly enforced good policies, or strongly enforced bad policies... its actually a bit less confusing to have the latter.
change... what a nice word... i want it too... but i wonder if the rest of the country is prepared for it. i'm not anti-change. but it is important to know what we're asking for and how it might come.
i can make the sacrifices... i'm easy... no attachments, no debts. dare we speak for everyone else?
so what does that make me? a conservative? no... a pragmatist... face it... whatever works. labels don't matter.
[/b] -
where there is a will, there is a way.
-
2) fine, I won't argue. But as I said earlier, I am speaking in metaphor, so you are not supposed to be taking this so literally.Originally posted by oldbreadstinks:2.no
3.its because short of something drastic singaporeans will never change, thats obvious enough to see
4.that will not work, i'll put it this way, look at all the singers out in the streets without the chance to make it big even if they can sing well, what they need is someone to spend money to promote them, to give them publicity, without that , it would take a miracle to suceed in the music industry
for the pap, what they have done is to let the population know enough to support them
look at the opo, all everyone knows about them is that they have scandal plagued politicians and they're against the pap
what else do we know? nothing at all
and what you're suggesting is to create something similar
and the pap isn't using communist fundamentalism to attract votes, they are communist , just that no one wants to admit it
3)what makes you think iam not suggesting sth drastic?
4)like i said, the new party must dissociate itself from capitalist/communist politics as much as possible, and work at finding ways to make the most major changes, not merely surface scratches. that way, it will distinguish itself from both the PAP and the 'opo'. remember i said that the party should not operate like a conventional political party, but it should act in the same way that SPCA or UNICEF works. And i mean the essence, not the form.
anyway, i believe there are only two kinds of countries in the world: pseudo-capitalist and capitalist, because the true communist ideal was never achieved at all in any "communist country".
hope that clarifies your doubts.
the pikamaster -
3.i have a weak heart hence i do not like drastic measures which can give me a heart attackOriginally posted by pikamaster:2) fine, I won't argue. But as I said earlier, I am speaking in metaphor, so you are not supposed to be taking this so literally.
3)what makes you think iam not suggesting sth drastic?
4)like i said, the new party must dissociate itself from capitalist/communist politics as much as possible, and work at finding ways to make the most major changes, not merely surface scratches. that way, it will distinguish itself from both the PAP and the 'opo'. remember i said that the party should not operate like a conventional political party, but it should act in the same way that SPCA or UNICEF works. And i mean the essence, not the form.
anyway, i believe there are only two kinds of countries in the world: pseudo-capitalist and capitalist, because the true communist ideal was never achieved at all in any "communist country".
hope that clarifies your doubts.
the pikamaster
4.there are 3 types of followers
1st-people who follow those who have proven that they are strong
2nd-people who follow those whom they believed are strong
3rd-people who would just follow anything that comes along
you idea of a new party is asking everyone to follow the third example, who on earth with basic intel would actually do that? much less in the name of being "freed" from pap
right now the pap belongs to the 1st example
and the rest of the opo belongs to the 3rd
unless someone can find a way to move up to the 2nd example , i doubt the pap would feel any threats for years to come -
haiz... never even read, want to judge...Originally posted by pikamaster:excessive pragmatism is the guise of conservatism.
kids these days...