demise of L--K--Y-- (looking forward?)
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3) sry to hear abt ur heart prob. haven't u seena doctor abt it?Originally posted by oldbreadstinks:3.i have a weak heart hence i do not like drastic measures which can give me a heart attack
4.there are 3 types of followers
1st-people who follow those who have proven that they are strong
2nd-people who follow those whom they believed are strong
3rd-people who would just follow anything that comes along
you idea of a new party is asking everyone to follow the third example, who on earth with basic intel would actually do that? much less in the name of being "freed" from pap
right now the pap belongs to the 1st example
and the rest of the opo belongs to the 3rd
unless someone can find a way to move up to the 2nd example , i doubt the pap would feel any threats for years to come
4)sigh*. y wud I go thru all the stuff that the new party SHOULD NOT be if what i wanted was the third example? obviously, the reason i stated what the new party should avoid doing is because i want it to follow the second example.
btw, the PAP has proven it was strong. the only thing it is strong now against is the opposition. watched i-contact on Wednesday? see the students grillign Tharman on the 101 inadequacies and weaknesses of our education system! n that's juz one example...
to elaborate on my ptabt teh new party, i think it shud come up with a real ALTERNATIVE to the current system, and be fully honest and transparent abt it.
the hopeful pikamaster -
the pap's rule is strong, no doubt about it, but its attrituted more to our useless opo who can't seem to avoid making things tough for themselves without the pap even tryingOriginally posted by pikamaster:3) sry to hear abt ur heart prob. haven't u seena doctor abt it?
4)sigh*. y wud I go thru all the stuff that the new party SHOULD NOT be if what i wanted was the third example? obviously, the reason i stated what the new party should avoid doing is because i want it to follow the second example.
btw, the PAP has proven it was strong. the only thing it is strong now against is the opposition. watched i-contact on Wednesday? see the students grillign Tharman on the 101 inadequacies and weaknesses of our education system! n that's juz one example...
to elaborate on my ptabt teh new party, i think it shud come up with a real ALTERNATIVE to the current system, and be fully honest and transparent abt it.
the hopeful pikamaster
the pap has a good track record from independence till now, what we need now is a govt which can do well and is accountable
thats what the opo can't convince the people of, seems to me people are voting out of indignant anger than interests when they vote for the opo, look at the reasons the people are complaining about, maid levy,housing, cars\coes,gst,cpf,furniture,toliets dirty, dirty streets,expensive concert tickets,too much msg in soup,stupid kids,stupid pap, stupid this , stupid that ............
and your idea of a new still isn't clear to me, but i still don't think it would work anyway, i get the impression that you're asking for an army of saints to lead sg -
there's always one aspect to politics and u don't see, u don't know about and which the gov't won't tell u about. fully honest? get real...Originally posted by pikamaster:to elaborate on my ptabt teh new party, i think it shud come up with a real ALTERNATIVE to the current system, and be fully honest and transparent abt it.
this system does work... what is essentially wrong with it is that the checks and balance that were supposed to be in place does not exist anymore because the pap has (a) become deeply entrenched and (b) the opposition that's supposed to provide part of this check is hopelessly weak. the second reason is no accident i might add...
u're advocating a "tear down the house even though i dunno how to build a new one" strategy again... -
haha.. all i can say is that singapore becoming the ninth richest country in the world in 39 years of independence is largely due to LKY and the government. And i believe we are the second smallest on that list.
Singapore should stop trying to "follow" other countries. The future of singapore is not dependent on which party the leaders belong too, but about the leaders themselves. The youths of today recognize flaws in the current system and as they take over the country they will improve on it. There is no such thing as a perfect society. Also, the people is what makes up the nation. If everyone decides to vote opposition during the next election, then the pap will be out of business. But people still trust the pap and thus they get the votes and are put back into their places. -
wad abt the pple in walkover constituencies? do they actually trust the PAP?Originally posted by Guest009:haha.. all i can say is that singapore becoming the ninth richest country in the world in 39 years of independence is largely due to LKY and the government. And i believe we are the second smallest on that list.
Singapore should stop trying to "follow" other countries. The future of singapore is not dependent on which party the leaders belong too, but about the leaders themselves. The youths of today recognize flaws in the current system and as they take over the country they will improve on it. There is no such thing as a perfect society. Also, the people is what makes up the nation. If everyone decides to vote opposition during the next election, then the pap will be out of business. But people still trust the pap and thus they get the votes and are put back into their places.
no flamign here, juz asking a simple question.
the curious pikamaster -
wad can i say? once more, u r jumping the gun...Originally posted by CX:there's always one aspect to politics and u don't see, u don't know about and which the gov't won't tell u about. fully honest? get real...
this system does work... what is essentially wrong with it is that the checks and balance that were supposed to be in place does not exist anymore because the pap has (a) become deeply entrenched and (b) the opposition that's supposed to provide part of this check is hopelessly weak. the second reason is no accident i might add...
u're advocating a "tear down the house even though i dunno how to build a new one" strategy again...
no noise dun mean no clue. in fact, i have quite a detailed idea of how to build a "new house", if u wish to stick to that analogy. well, at least I have an idea what that new house should be like. n no doubt it is a very different one from what we have now.
pre) FYI, i read up on all the mass genocides and Indonesian policies toward Aceh. juz because i'm of the new generation dun mean i dun keep myself well-informed! sorry to break the news, i do know that none of the governments in the world, even purpoted those who claim themselves as "most transparent" do hide some things from the public, or exhort some figures to give themselves some edge. but that, i believe, is the core aspect of industrial-age, bureaucratic politics. because we now have an increasing diversity in the population, and that's to be taken both locally and internationally, due to new technology, it makes sense to begin changing the political system to something that is more conducive to a more well-informed populace. anyway, honesty in this case is equated with transparency, and a government should be as transparent as possible, except with things as regards to military weaponry, unless we r living in the ideal peace paradise, which of course wun entail the need for weaponry.
a system is only working if EVERY PART of it is functioning smoothly. a machine is not working if its command center is not working, even if the motor and the gears are all functioning smoothly. so in conclusion, our system is not working well in that sense.
but the working of a system should never be defined as such a narrow context. the political system in this case, is not just defined by the electoral system, or the parliamentary system (i.e. number of parties, which parties not functioning, uselessness of oppo etc.), but is also defined by the other structures that make it up. in our case, ministries, commitees (like RSC), think-tanks (like the supposedly critical ISEAS) and so on. and quite alot of these structures are in need of serious reconstruction. sigh, even a die-hard cosnervative like you should agree on this point.
So, "tearing down the house" is not merely removing the PAP; that is "changing the owner of the house". it is reconstructing the basic political structures, and the alteration of obselete (colonial) values, or what the bureaucrats of SG term as "mindset".
b) btw, is this statement a statement of contempt against the oppo, or the incumbents?
the hopeful pikamaster
hoping that u'll see the light -
well, there are stuff like the GRC rules and teh Defamation Act, like is commonly mentioned in forums like this one, although i give it to you that the oppo do try and make themselves look foolish at times, eg. when CSJ did an individual hunger strike in 1998, protesting against the "unfairness of PAP toward the oppo". while of course the reasons may be valid, the action is undoubtedly senseless, especially when govt-run propaganda news like the Straits Times can portray you as a clown.Originally posted by oldbreadstinks:the pap's rule is strong, no doubt about it, but its attrituted more to our useless opo who can't seem to avoid making things tough for themselves without the pap even trying
the pap has a good track record from independence till now, what we need now is a govt which can do well and is accountable
thats what the opo can't convince the people of, seems to me people are voting out of indignant anger than interests when they vote for the opo, look at the reasons the people are complaining about, maid levy,housing, cars\coes,gst,cpf,furniture,toliets dirty, dirty streets,expensive concert tickets,too much msg in soup,stupid kids,stupid pap, stupid this , stupid that ............
and your idea of a new still isn't clear to me, but i still don't think it would work anyway, i get the impression that you're asking for an army of saints to lead sg
PAP has a good track record, from independence until 1985. after teh first recession, pple have been seeing things from a very different perspective, as CX records in his observation abt "coffee-shop talk" in the thread PAP policies Killing all Singaporeans. n of course, Gen M wants sth different from their parents and grandparents...well, that's only social progress.
n of course, there are the constituencies where pple dun get to vote in, becos no oppo candidate go to contest, or becos oppo candidate kicked out of contest becos filled election application wrongly. indignant anger is not wrong. in fact, i would think anyone without any form of indignant anger toward the PAP (hopefully not u) should be warded in IMH, and fast!
if u dun understand my idea of new, u can converse with me thru private email...then perhaps we can discuss the issue further.
with regards,
the pikamaster
P.S.: n my motto is not going to change...in a loooooooooong time
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Originally posted by pikamaster:
oftentimes, how well a machine runs depends on who's the operator, and not the machine.
a system is only working if EVERY PART of it is functioning smoothly. a machine is not working if its command center is not working, even if the motor and the gears are all functioning smoothly. so in conclusion, our system is not working well in that sense.
if the machine works fine in principle, but it is the operators messing up the show, why mess with the machine? its already a little disruptive if u change the operator... changing the machine will just result in more down time.but the working of a system should never be defined as such a narrow context. the political system in this case, is not just defined by the electoral system, or the parliamentary system (i.e. number of parties, which parties not functioning, uselessness of oppo etc.), but is also defined by the other structures that make it up. in our case, ministries, commitees (like RSC), think-tanks (like the supposedly critical ISEAS) and so on. and quite alot of these structures are in need of serious reconstruction. sigh, even a die-hard cosnervative like you should agree on this point.
change is mostly for the better... but u'll be surprised how well things are actually working if u just remove the shackles holding them back. ISEAS for instance...
if u ask me regarding ANY research institute: ISEAS, ARI, whatever... just fund them and leave them alone. the best works are churned out in enviornments like that.
ministries, i'm not THAT familiar... i hesitate to comment unless i have details. its easy to talk but talk is cheap.So, "tearing down the house" is not merely removing the PAP; that is "changing the owner of the house". it is reconstructing the basic political structures, and the alteration of obselete (colonial) values, or what the bureaucrats of SG term as "mindset".
sounds very nice, but seems very vague and general... hear this kinda language from consultants a lot... don't buy it. details? -
Originally posted by pikamaster:
hunger strikes are stupid, no need for ST to do anything
[b]
well, there are stuff like the GRC rules and teh Defamation Act, like is commonly mentioned in forums like this one, although i give it to you that the oppo do try and make themselves look foolish at times, eg. when CSJ did an individual hunger strike in 1998, protesting against the "unfairness of PAP toward the oppo". while of course the reasons may be valid, the action is undoubtedly senseless, especially when govt-run propaganda news like the Straits Times can portray you as a clown.PAP has a good track record, from independence until 1985. after teh first recession, pple have been seeing things from a very different perspective, as CX records in his observation abt "coffee-shop talk" in the thread PAP policies Killing all Singaporeans. n of course, Gen M wants sth different from their parents and grandparents...well, that's only social progress.
it just means when the people are well fed they want more then money, thats not social progress, its just a case of people getting greedy about something they don't understand, i've always wanted to know what having fair elections here would be like, but recent events made me think twice , and made me wonder if we're mature enough to have fair elections without any troubles
what if we end up like the recent taiwan elections?n of course, there are the constituencies where pple dun get to vote in, becos no oppo candidate go to contest, or becos oppo candidate kicked out of contest becos filled election application wrongly. indignant anger is not wrong. in fact, i would think anyone without any form of indignant anger toward the PAP (hopefully not u) should be warded in IMH, and fast!
i do not let my anger dictate my actions, because i know , selfish motives would work better than anger most of the time, just because i don't like the ruling party doesn't mean i want it gone right here and right now, not before there is anything to replace them in a smooth transaction
and no i do not understand anything about your idea[/quote]
if u dun understand my idea of new, u can converse with me thru private email...then perhaps we can discuss the issue further. -
hunger strikes are stupid, no need for ST to do anything
i said can, not did.
it just means when the people are well fed they want more then money, thats not social progress, its just a case of people getting greedy about something they don't understand, i've always wanted to know what having fair elections here would be like, but recent events made me think twice , and made me wonder if we're mature enough to have fair elections without any troubles what if we end up like the recent taiwan elections?
heard of Maslow's Hierarchy? as society progresses, it is natural for people to want more. n anyway, it is not very respectful to say that people dun understand what they want, because i am sure most pple wud; well, at least i do. hehe, dun forget i'm frm Gen M as well. to make such a statement is merely looking down on our young.
as for Taiwan, i feel i need to tell you something. CNA and ST are not too reliable news sources. their main philosophy is : praise local leaders, damn all toher foreign leaders, and in doing so, show that SIngapore is best in every aspect and is right in every decision it makes , in the supposed interest of nation-building. in short, their role is to act as the propaganda mouthpieces of the PAP. the truth is that the Taiwanese protests were very peaceful and orderly, unlike the riots in Indonesia or those in the Middle East. the only violence actually came from the State Police!
the pikamaster -
LKY has always been seen as that strict father with that rotan in his hands. who likes discilpine? no one. and it appears that few are fond of a father who whips the cane... however, it is this father who instills discipline and one who maintains peace. we've seen how he led the govt and the pple, transforming us from a sleepish fishing village to a bustling comopolitian city. now, judging from newspaper reports, i see him as a father, who only whips out his rotan if the situation really calls for it. in short, he has mellowed down...alot. Furthermore, as the saying goes...to scold is to care, to cane is to love...
w/o him, we may not enjoy such great political and social peace, and we've witness how this lack of peace has led to the country suffering economically...
he's a nice man. salute him.
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Originally posted by chillychilliecrap:LKY has always been seen as that strict father with that rotan in his hands. who likes discilpine? no one. and it appears that few are fond of a father who whips the cane... however, it is this father who instills discipline and one who maintains peace. we've seen how he led the govt and the pple, transforming us from a sleepish fishing village to a bustling comopolitian city. now, judging from newspaper reports, i see him as a father, who only whips out his rotan if the situation really calls for it. in short, he has mellowed down...alot. Furthermore, as the saying goes...to scold is to care, to cane is to love...
w/o him, we may not enjoy such great political and social peace, and we've witness how this lack of peace has led to the country suffering economically...
he's a nice man. salute him. i do hope ur not talking crap, .
no doubt i salute him for bringing order and peace to SIngapore so that we can reach our standard of today. however, it is natural that old pple eventually become stubborn, well it's a part of aging.
but i do think he has brought his notion of peace too far.