What does Singapore need?
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We are in a world where hatred is fought with hatred. I think what SG needs is to be different. Hatred must be fought with love. We need to tell the world that we as a society is a loving society that truely accept everyone.
Btw, you are not living in reality. Reality is that hate is fought with hate. If there's anyone who believes in Hate VS Love and that they actually does it, it's in very small number. A very small minority. It's still a long way to change. Humans are aggressive by nature and it's not going to be easy. -
nothing can be fair and equal. like the rich and the poor
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da si tenOriginally posted by TLK:Btw, you are not living in reality. Reality is that hate is fought with hate. If there's anyone who believes in Hate VS Love and that they actually does it, it's in very small number. A very small minority. It's still a long way to change. Humans are aggressive by nature and it's not going to be easy.
ma si ai -
Don't see why homosexuals should create any discomfort, i mean if the gay or lesbian do not try to enforce their views or make a move on you, why bother about how they wish to live their lives?
There is homosexuality in nature, male dolphins i believe often stimulate each other's penis. But it is more of a form of sexual release in the absence of a mate.We are in a world where hatred is fought with hatred. I think what SG needs is to be different. Hatred must be fought with love. We need to tell the world that we as a society is a loving society that truely accept everyone.
And for this, that's what the entire worlds needs but i don't see that happening in the next few centuries or so.
I think to bind S'poreans to SG is to make this place a place for everyone. I think we as a society is coming to a stage where we have to think of sustainability. How are we going to make this place home in this big bad world?
I think we should start by proclaiming that we are a country that accepts everyone (that includes the gays, lesbians, trans-gendered, disabled, and mentally unstable). This I think will tell everyone that we are a loving society. Human rights must be championed by the government too if we are going to continue attracting people from all over here to SG. How are we going to compete in this globalized world? We have the tools, we have the policies, but there are going to be other countries that can provide better incentives to business and people to go there. What we need to build is our diversity in order to assure that we value humans, I think that will allow us to continue prospering as a society. -
Hi to all that replied.
I am saddened by reading most of your comments. Especially the one that said "fight hate with hate".
From what I gather, we have been living with this realist ideology for too long. The ideology that if one wins the other looses and there is no in between. To build a sustainable environment for all, this to me is not a route that we as humans should travel. There should be win win situations and we have to learn to compromise. If we are all so self centred, where do you think this world will end up? I think it will be nuked away. Look at all the religious wars and colonial occupations, what were their main reasons for attacking and fighting? I think one was because they could not just live and let live, and that they assumed that their way was the correct way, their religion was the correct religion so the fighting began. Look at the colonization of the Americas, where Columbus thought the natives were barbarians and uncivilized even though it has been proven that they, the 'barbarians' had their own way of life, and were different but not wrong. However, Columbus and his crew imposed their culture, their way of thinking on the natives. Look at natives all over the world now where they are being oppressed by the governments of their lands, how do they feel? Maybe because this is SG and we are brought up in an environment that has sheltered us from these global suffering.
I still don't get it. If a homosexual do not come on to me, or do me harm, why would I hate him/her then? I think most of the people that replied have preconcieved ideology of homosexuals, and are socialized to think that their way is the correct way so other ways are wrong. The fact that if one is a homosexual then he/she is condamned to a life of imposed ideology and that they are scums is wrong. Look at the chinese and how they were treated in the 'west'. In the 1800s they were looked at and thought of as 'stupid and cunning' basically scums of the earth. We should ask ourselves why that happened. why did the west think the Chinese were lesser then them?
How about the disabled then? Are we to think that they are lesser than the abled, and that their lives means less than the abled? How about the ex-con who has changed his/her life after prison? Are we going to condamn that person for life? Please give me a break man. I know that we are all different in one way or another, but do we have to oppress those that are not the same as us? Yes we might not agree with homosexuality but to oppose homosexuals from legally proclaiming their love for fellow homosexuals is it wrong or correct? They are not hurting others through their actions are they? We are not dealing with binary oppositions here. Everything is mostly in the grey, what we need to learn is to get along man. I have lesbian friends and gay friends and they don't seem like scums to me, just ordinary humans. Why ar so many people concerned about what goes on behind close doors. Lets concentrate on the public sphere that affects us all. Homosexuality is not a crime. If you get raped by either a guy or a woman, then thats rape. Why would you be concerned about what sex raped you.
I am just rambling on here. Sitting here "china eyed" and spacing out. So please lets just live together in harmony man. Homos are humans too. -
Homosexuals are naturally persecuted because of Christianity, and most people here are Christian. I was at a Christian talk the other day about Homosexuality, and the pastor was saying "What are your thoughts when you hear the word Homosexuality".
People went up to the board and wrote stuff like:
"Disgusting"
"Weird"
"Evil"
"Satanic"
"Abnormal"
"Gross"
"Sinful"
So its unsurprising why discrimination exists. -
there are historians who have attempted to make the case that christianity was not inherently homophobic... but that the homophobic elements crept in during the medieval period when over-zealous monks re-copying works deliberately imposed their homophobic intepretations on the works they copied.Originally posted by men_@_arms:Homosexuals are naturally persecuted because of Christianity, and most people here are Christian. I was at a Christian talk the other day about Homosexuality, and the pastor was saying "What are your thoughts when you hear the word Homosexuality".
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So its unsurprising why discrimination exists.
Ovid, who was known to have rather overt homosexual themes was even "censored" ...
and in analysing the history of ideas, their transmission, their influences and their metamorphosis, (haha... bad pun... ovid, metamorphosis... ) it is important to realise that pple impose their own ideas with every age and the "purity" of the original meaning is often not what we believe it to be...
was Sodom wiped off the map because of its "crimes of homosexuality " ? or was it because it committed a crime considered even MORE heinous at that time: the breach of hospitality.
pple weren't stoned or beheaded for engaging in homosexual sex at that time... but they WERE punished if they insulted the dignity of their guests. we have to understand that there were no "hotels" to speak of and visitors to a foreign city depended on the goodwill and hospitality of those who gave them shelter.
it was unspeakable that one should mis-treat the ones they invite to stay with them! it meant that the next time someone else travelled, they might not be promised the same hospitality they need and expect.
its not just courtesy or charity... its a social institution.
but we don't see that now... so medieval monks saw the homosexuality in the tale, found it repulsive, and intepreted it as such.
we miss more than we understand if we take everything that was written at face value... -
I don't know how to put this into words very well, the bulk of the conservative fraction (including me) would probably just feel that homo and lesbian acts are against the order of Nature.
Either two from each catagory are simply just NOT meant to be a match for one another. -
and what makes u think that there were only meant to be 2 categories?Originally posted by [ Neo ]:I don't know how to put this into words very well, the bulk of the conservative fraction (including me) would probably just feel that homo and lesbian acts are against the order of Nature.
Either two from each catagory are simply just NOT meant to be a match for one another.
and why is it " unnatural " ? it has been known to occur naturally amongst monkeys... maybe it is hetrosexuals who have a visceral reaction against homosexuals who are abnormal.
are reproductive functions the only reasons for humans to form sexual relationships? if that were so, don't u think that we would have seasonal mating like many mammals?
and one reason for disgust is always FEAR... the worst homophobes are often the ones that are afraid of their own sexuality.
and u know the funny part? not every gay man wants to have sex with them... -
Singapore needs a leader tat understands the peoples needs, troubles, problems and solves them.
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A leader who can understand Gay And Lesbian need???
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eh... that's too narrow lah... i'll just go for "open-minds willing to listen to different views" ...Originally posted by zenden9:A leader who can understand Gay And Lesbian need??? -
Is true that some people choose to be gays because they r born tat way. However the public attitude towards gay still plays a part. From wat I have seen, those countries tat support gays movement have a higher proportion of gays.
Someone born slightly "gayish" but can still live a straight life if society influences people to be normal. On the other hand someone both slightly more toward being "straight" will be influence into being a gay if society display this possibility to them... Peer pressure is something very real. If all your friends are gays and u mixed often wih them, there is a high chance u will becomes one too...
We r not going to hunt all the gays and burn them on stakes... I just hope tat watever they do, don't let me or my children see or hear it... To me if my son suddenly tell me he is a gay, It will be something really sad..... -
why sad? does it make him any less of a person?Originally posted by stupidissmart:We r not going to hunt all the gays and burn them on stakes... I just hope tat watever they do, don't let me or my children see or hear it... To me if my son suddenly tell me he is a gay, It will be something really sad.....
would he be suddenly diminished in your eyes?
his education, his brains, his achievements would all count for nothing?
u judge a person strictly based on who he / she fucks?
"don't let your child see or hear it" ??? while u're at it, make sure that he doesn't see or hear about "poverty" , "disease" , "crime" , "war" and "sex" as well...
u can't protect a person from knowledge... i would rather have a good conversation with a well-read and intelligent gay-man than to sit down with a narrow, ignorant, homophobe.
ultimately, we all gotta realise that its plain stupid to see them as sexually threatening to us.
not all gay-men wanna have sex with your son, stupidissmart... -
Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Hi StupidIsSmart,
However the public attitude towards gay still plays a part. From wat I have seen, those countries tat support gays movement have a higher proportion of gays.
Someone born [b]slightly "gayish" but can still live a straight life if society influences people to be normal. On the other hand someone both slightly more toward being "straight" will be influence into being a gay if society display this possibility to them... Peer pressure is something very real. If all your friends are gays and u mixed often wih them, there is a high chance u will becomes one too...
[/b]
I really do not know if there is a survey or statistics out there that provides a poll that the entire public gets to take on this subject. So I dont think that the "public's" view point is that credible. If you studied statistics, you will know that it is all based on the sample size that they surveyed etc. not the 'whole' population.
Some of the readers spoke about how "society" does not accept gays or lesbians, I really wonder if it is just them speaking on society's behalf or they conducted a islandwide survey of all people in SG because I am part of society and I accept them.
One thing I know though, to create change, it starts on the individual level not on a societial level.
As for gays, if they can be influenced to be straight, are you telling me that straight people can be influenced gay too? So you are saying that sexuality is not innate but socialized? As for peer pressure, I know that it only the willing gets pressured. I think you should teach your child self determination so that he will learn to believe in himself not what others want him to do. I dont think that teaching him to 'other' others will help with his development as a human being because then he will grow up to hate or discriminate against others.
Lastly as for turning someone gay, I think that is just a stupid way of thinking about homosexuality and it is all based on fear. Where is the prove that someone will be turned gay if he/she mixes with them. That is just full of BS if you ask me. It shows how insecure that person is.
Stupidissmart, I hope that your sexuality is not born out of pressure, rather I hope it is based from an innate acknowledgement of who you really are. As for countries with higher proportions of gays and lesbians, I think you are not considering the fact that other countries are larger than SG (approximately 100 million in States, 30 million in Canada, etc) furthermore, in SG alone, I think that there are more gays and lesbians than you would think. -
i think we're all borned half gay, only gay people are those who went all the wayOriginally posted by SGglobalist:Hi StupidIsSmart,
I really do not know if there is a survey or statistics out there that provides a poll that the entire public gets to take on this subject. So I dont think that the "public's" view point is that credible. If you studied statistics, you will know that it is all based on the sample size that they surveyed etc. not the 'whole' population.
Some of the readers spoke about how "society" does not accept gays or lesbians, I really wonder if it is just them speaking on society's behalf or they conducted a islandwide survey of all people in SG because I am part of society and I accept them.
One thing I know though, to create change, it starts on the individual level not on a societial level.
As for gays, if they can be influenced to be straight, are you telling me that straight people can be influenced gay too? So you are saying that sexuality is not innate but socialized? As for peer pressure, I know that it only the willing gets pressured. I think you should teach your child self determination so that he will learn to believe in himself not what others want him to do. I dont think that teaching him to 'other' others will help with his development as a human being because then he will grow up to hate or discriminate against others.
Lastly as for turning someone gay, I think that is just a stupid way of thinking about homosexuality and it is all based on fear. Where is the prove that someone will be turned gay if he/she mixes with them. That is just full of BS if you ask me. It shows how insecure that person is.
Stupidissmart, I hope that your sexuality is not born out of pressure, rather I hope it is based from an innate acknowledgement of who you really are. As for countries with higher proportions of gays and lesbians, I think you are not considering the fact that other countries are larger than SG (approximately 100 million in States, 30 million in Canada, etc) furthermore, in SG alone, I think that there are more gays and lesbians than you would think. -
why sad? does it make him any less of a person?
Education, brains, achievement all count in for a human. However do not tell me if one day your son tell u he is a gay, u will be happy or feel nothing about it. If one day your son tell u he desires to be a transervite, and love to cross dress, u will feel nothing to it too ? I am not saying I will disown him or tear his skin off from him, I am just reflecting that as a parent to see your son being a gay, it is not something to be happy about. R u going to be so happy about it and pop the champagne if this happened to u ?
would he be suddenly diminished in your eyes?
his education, his brains, his achievements would all count for nothing?
u judge a person strictly based on who he / she fucks?
What does being a gay means ? The most important problem is they will not have a child of their own. I am not talking about adopting children, I am talking about really physically give birth to a real baby which has your genes etc in it. Tat to me, is something undesirable. If u ask me, leaving behind a decendents means u have left part of u behind in this world.
Second, being gay at tis time and society, it just means u r not going to be well liked by certain portion of the population. This is harsh but true. Maybe in this forums people will feel being gay is nothing etc, but to other people, they r unnatural. As wat men_@_arms say, people r linking gays with "wierd", "abnormal" and bla bla bla. They r going to go around giving peopel tat kind of feeling. Even at countries tat is more liberal than singapore, there r bound to be people tat keep their distance from gays. If your son is going to be despise as such, will u be elated ?u can't protect a person from knowledge... i would rather have a good conversation with a well-read and intelligent gay-man than to sit down with a narrow, ignorant, homophobe.
Can u ? Is the effect of media really tat weak ? Years ago people r still conservative about pre marital sex etc. Why now in singapore it has become a common thing ? If it is not due to the movies and shows, what has cause the spread of these practises ? True, I can not cover up his eyes and prevent him from knowing about gays. However I do not want him to have this feeling tat being gays r absolutely okie and there is nothing to it. Is tat something wrong I have done here ?ultimately, we all gotta realise that its plain stupid to see them as sexually threatening to us.
Have I ever suggest anything tat resembles your above statement from my reply ? I treat tat remark as repulsive to the extreme. Is tat a confrontation ?
not all gay-men wanna have sex with your son, stupidissmart...As for gays, if they can be influenced to be straight, are you telling me that straight people can be influenced gay too? So you are saying that sexuality is not innate but socialized? As for peer pressure, I know that it only the willing gets pressured. I think you should teach your child self determination so that he will learn to believe in himself not what others want him to do. I dont think that teaching him to 'other' others will help with his development as a human being because then he will grow up to hate or discriminate against others.
Is everything just black and white ? Does it means tat people can either be a straight or gay from birth ? Can't it be something in between ? Wat is the natural explantion for people being gays and lesbians ? There is an inbalance of XX and XY chromosome or hormones in the body. Is nature such tat if either a person have a very large female hormone or male hormone and nothing in between ? There are even birth defects such as congenital adrenal hyperplasia where people develop female reproductive organs in the interior of the body while having a male genetalia. Wat is so strange about people having genes tat can either sway to being a gay or being straight ?
One particular evidence tat environment did play a role in the sexual configuration of people. Twins. Twins have the same DNA structure and thus produce the same hormone level etc. If one of the brother turn out to be gay, the probability tat the second brother be one is 50%. Wat does it implies ? Nature do play a part in determining the sexual orientation which I do not disagree. However Environment also play a crucial part in it too. That is why even if one is suppose to be "born" gay as in twins, he can still lead a straight life.Lastly as for turning someone gay, I think that is just a stupid way of thinking about homosexuality and it is all based on fear. Where is the prove that someone will be turned gay if he/she mixes with them. That is just full of BS if you ask me. It shows how insecure that person is.
Up till now there is still intense debate on whether is gays formed due to 1) nature 2) nurture 3 )both have influence in it. Studies have shown tat animal been injected with the opposite hormones DO NOT change their sexual preference. It only change their arousal level. How can u safely say tat environment do not play a part in determining a sexual orientation ?
Know about the stanford prison experiment ? Normal and average people took on the roles of prisoner and prison warden. The startling result is these people actually conforms to their roles tat was being assigned to them. The prison wardens "acts" like real prison wardens and start stripping the prisoners, met out punishment such as sh!tting in buckets and cleaning it with their bare hands. The prisoners on the other hands experience acute emotional disturbance and rage. They exhibited disorganized thinking, uncontrollable crying, withdrawing, and behaving in pathological ways. The experimenters forgot that they were there to observe and collect data. Instead, they started to assume the role of prison staff and supervisor.
http://psychology.about.com/library/weekly/aa060100b.htm
Does environment influence people ? U decide. -
Have I ever suggest anything tat resembles your above statement from my reply ? I treat tat remark as repulsive to the extreme. Is tat a confrontation ?
i don't deny that it is a provocative thought... but i do not intend to use it to offend you... merely to challenge certain commonly held assumptions about sexuality.
and why is it extreme? i have gay friends. the relationship is not sexual. in fact, THEY would be offended if i felt sexually threatened...
imagine if u went out with a woman friend and she thinks that u're trying to get into her pants and tells the whole world even when u have done nothing to suggest it. dunno about u, but i would be furious! and dare to wonder what the wife would think!
it is not just an open-minded view on sexuality. it is etiquette....R u going to be so happy about it and pop the champagne if this happened to u ?
society has not reached THAT point of indifference yet. unfortunately, these things still occupy a very base and narrow area of human psyche.
i do not mean to suggest that we SHOULD feel nothing... but what we feel should not necessarily be confused as being the "natural" reaction. if sexuality is socially constructed, then our perceptions of it are constructs as well.
it remains to be seen if homosexuality is really a "crime against nature" ... because human science and technology has not reached a level of full, irrevocable understanding about nature yet.
there are different ways of looking at things. when we simply assume that an opinion, or certain feelings towards certain subjects are "natural", we open the doors to hate and discrimination.
we no longer think that the earth is flat... we no longer think that fishes do not copulate... why know that homosexuality exists among mammals in nature... but why do we still have such a base notion of human sexuality?What does being a gay means ? The most important problem is they will not have a child of their own.
that's a very narrow (dare i say, chinese / confucian?) definition of homosexuality... in fact, the whole term is rather inaccurate.
usually, when we think of the stereotypical homosexual, we think Oscar Wilde... but Wilde WAS married... and had children...
if we believe, as u do, that sexuality is socially influenced, then who's to say that one who used to be engaged in a same-sex relationship cannot choose to have a hetrosexual marriage later and have children?
is sexuality monolithic and exclusive? if we believe in the social determinant of it, then it cannot be so.people r linking gays with "wierd", "abnormal" and bla bla bla...
i do not yet have children... but i will despise pple who say things like that because it suggests ignorance, narrow-mindedness, arrogant self-righteousness and basic discomfort with who they are that they have to find faults with other people.
i will not be elated if one close to me is thus ostracised. but that also means that i will not join in the criticism and alienate them further. if anything at all, i have to be there for them... more than ever because narrow minded, stupid pple have chosen to make him / her an unfair target.Can u ? Is the effect of media really tat weak ? ...
are bad things happening much more frequently in the world today or is it because news coverage is now much more timely and comprehensive?
Is tat something wrong I have done here ?
if we believe that its the latter, then its not because pple are more liberal now, but because u're hearing more of what has always been happenning.
the study of sexuality undoubtably, progressed in recent decades. some of it is self-serving nonsense, but a lot of it does have a point and one who has been exposed to it is forced to challenge much of their previously held assumptions.
i do not expect everyone to have read them, but a basic principle that any educated individual MUST accept in order to truly add sophistication to their thought, is "Don't Judge, Don't Assume" ...
u made a good point about the hostile enviornment to queer relationships here. it is not something anyone can change immediately, if at all... but i believe that change has to start with ourselves. we can't always howl with the wolves...
is your point "wrong" ? in intent, not really... u want the best for your boy... but in form, it is objectionable because it is homophobic and narrow-minded.
to say that "i discriminate against gays because i want to protect my child." sounds noble, but it is still unfair and vicious discrimination. and it reveals your lack of understanding of this imagined "otherness".
they are people too u know... -
i don't deny that it is a provocative thought... but i do not intend to use it to offend you... merely to challenge certain commonly held assumptions about sexuality.
Have I mentioned I am sexually threathen in my previous replies ? Have I said that I was worried I or my son will be raped or molested by gays ? Why do u sounds as though I have said out those things ! Please read back to the previous reply ! U want to challenge certain commonly held assumptions about sexuality, so u decide to use my son as an example lah ! Is tat etiquette ?
and why is it extreme? i have gay friends. the relationship is not sexual. in fact, THEY would be offended if i felt sexually threatened...
imagine if u went out with a woman friend and she thinks that u're trying to get into her pants and tells the whole world even when u have done nothing to suggest it. dunno about u, but i would be furious! and dare to wonder what the wife would think!
it is not just an open-minded view on sexuality. it is etiquette.
Not to offend me ? Maybe one day when your son tell u he enjoy having sex with your dog while shoving candles up his own arse u will smile and say "Good for u son !"i do not mean to suggest that we SHOULD feel nothing... but what we feel should not necessarily be confused as being the "natural" reaction. if sexuality is socially constructed, then our perceptions of it are constructs as well.
Tat is not natural. A man has sexual organs which is built to "coordinate" with woman sexual organs. And anal is best use for sh!tting. Is the sexual acts gays do natural ? Then maybe walking with your hands or standing on your head be natural in future. This is simple science where kids should know. In Singapore law tat is consider as unnatural act.
it remains to be seen if homosexuality is really a "crime against nature" ... because human science and technology has not reached a level of full, irrevocable understanding about nature yet.
there are different ways of looking at things. when we simply assume that an opinion, or certain feelings towards certain subjects are "natural", we open the doors to hate and discrimination.
we no longer think that the earth is flat... we no longer think that fishes do not copulate... why know that homosexuality exists among mammals in nature... but why do we still have such a base notion of human sexuality?
It may be true tat tis may be due to their hormones etc, it is still not something desirable. Is it happy for parents to know their sons r gays ? Will u prefer them to be normal if given the choice ? I only reflect my sadness and dissappointment and there u come around saying I have done an inpardonable thing. U can ask this question to a million people and 99% of them will express sadness too. Wat is inappropriate in my reply ? I cannot voice my opinion ?that's a very narrow (dare i say, chinese / confucian?) definition of homosexuality... in fact, the whole term is rather inaccurate.
Tat is a bio meaning to it. I am not talking about passing of surnames if u r confused. I am talking of leaving your genes to your decendents. A proof that u have lived once. There is nothing chinese or confucian (your confusion ?) in it.
usually, when we think of the stereotypical homosexual, we think Oscar Wilde... but Wilde WAS married... and had children...
if we believe, as u do, that sexuality is socially influenced, then who's to say that one who used to be engaged in a same-sex relationship cannot choose to have a hetrosexual marriage later and have children?
is sexuality monolithic and exclusive? if we believe in the social determinant of it, then it cannot be so.
If a homo can marry and give birth to kids, then he is not a real gay anymore. He should be consider bisexual who has interest in both men and women.
So a gay couple should find a surrogate mother each or have an outside affair with with girls ? Or they married to women and have an outside affair with guys ?
Gays can go on a straight path, maybe later in life. But wat r the chances ? Does people change their sexual preference regularly ? One month ago he is gay a month later he is straight and give birth to 2 kids then go back to being a gay ?i do not yet have children... but i will despise pple who say things like that because it suggests ignorance, narrow-mindedness, arrogant self-righteousness and basic discomfort with who they are that they have to find faults with other people.
U despise, so WAT ? This world is not perfect and most people don't think like u. This is a real problem and no matter wat u think, it will exists. If my son is gay, and he is despised and alienated, it is going to happen whether u like it or not or whether it is right or not. Life still goes on.
i will not be elated if one close to me is thus ostracised. but that also means that i will not join in the criticism and alienate them further. if anything at all, i have to be there for them... more than ever because narrow minded, stupid pple have chosen to make him / her an unfair target.is your point "wrong" ? in intent, not really... u want the best for your boy... but in form, it is objectionable because it is homophobic and narrow-minded.
Homophobic ? Narrow minded ? Does comments written in here have to be politically correct ? Must every reply to forums be perfect and morally straight ? Cannot accept real honest remarks ? is tis a debate or a affirmation lesson ? If I do not write that previous reply, does tat means means no one is thinking along that line ? Sorry man, sorry to dissappoint u but I am not perfect neither am I a saint. I do not like religion even if they don't bother me and I do not encourage homo behaviors either. Even if I have no sons I will still discriminate against gays.
to say that "i discriminate against gays because i want to protect my child." sounds noble, but it is still unfair and vicious discrimination. and it reveals your lack of understanding of this imagined "otherness".
they are people too u know...
I know gays r people with feelings. So strictly no comments on it ? PAP has feelings too u know. Terrorists have feelings too u know. Panja has feelings too u know. So since we can't talk anymore we might as well close down the whole system of forums. -
i already told u that i do not mean to offend. if u wanna be petty about it, maybe u should consider pulling the candle out of YOUR arse.
Not to offend me ? Maybe one day when your son tell u he enjoy having sex with your dog while shoving candles up his own arse u will smile and say "Good for u son !"Tat is not natural. A man has sexual organs which is built to "coordinate" with woman sexual organs. And anal is best use for sh!tting. Is the sexual acts gays do natural ? Then maybe walking with your hands or standing on your head be natural in future. This is simple science where kids should know. In Singapore law tat is consider as unnatural act.
natural? unnatural? i'll rather not judge. that's what i said.
simple science? sexuality used to be simple science... it no longer is because we've placed all the prejudices we have at our disposal to complicate it.
if it was "simple science", we would not be having this conversation now.It may be true tat tis may be due to their hormones etc, it is still not something desirable. Is it happy for parents to know their sons r gays ? Will u prefer them to be normal if given the choice ? I only reflect my sadness and dissappointment and there u come around saying I have done an inpardonable thing. U can ask this question to a million people and 99% of them will express sadness too. Wat is inappropriate in my reply ? I cannot voice my opinion ?
unpardonable? refer to line one when i said that i did not mean to offend and that we should not judge.
all i did was offer an alterative view and u go on a moral crusade to say that i have insulted u, your son AND that u are justly right in discriminating against homosexuals.Tat is a bio meaning to it. I am not talking about passing of surnames if u r confused. I am talking of leaving your genes to your decendents. A proof that u have lived once. There is nothing chinese or confucian (your confusion ?) in it.
i already said... if sexuality is not monolithic, then how can we think that it always is? its not always a black and white line between "homosexuals" or "bisexuals" .
If a homo can marry and give birth to kids, then he is not a real gay anymore. He should be consider bisexual who has interest in both men and women.
u have this very fixed image of "gays" pple... that they're either drag queens or ass bandits, which is ridiculous.So a gay couple should find a surrogate mother each or have an outside affair with with girls ? Or they married to women and have an outside affair with guys ?
the first suggestion is rather absurd. but the second one is not inconceivable. like i said... Oscar Wilde.Gays can go on a straight path, maybe later in life. But wat r the chances ? Does people change their sexual preference regularly ? One month ago he is gay a month later he is straight and give birth to 2 kids then go back to being a gay ?
ever occured to u that if sexuality is socially determined, we might actually be ENFORCING and making permanent their sexuality because we alienate an ostracise them from mainstream society?
when we differentiate between US and THEM, it forces them to identify MORE with each other.U despise, so WAT ? This world is not perfect and most people don't think like u. This is a real problem and no matter wat u think, it will exists. If my son is gay, and he is despised and alienated, it is going to happen whether u like it or not or whether it is right or not. Life still goes on.
i know its not perfect. but i do not choose to howl with the wolves all the time.
if one is gay and despised, it also casts very crucial questions about the society that ostracises that individual and THAT is what we're talking about. not your son.Homophobic ? Narrow minded ? Does comments written in here have to be politically correct ? Must every reply to forums be perfect and morally straight ? Cannot accept real honest remarks ? is tis a debate or a affirmation lesson ? If I do not write that previous reply, does tat means means no one is thinking along that line ? Sorry man, sorry to dissappoint u but I am not perfect neither am I a saint. I do not like religion even if they don't bother me and I do not encourage homo behaviors either. Even if I have no sons I will still discriminate against gays.
i'm not perfect either. but i have my point too and i'm sharing it with u.
this is my honest response to u as well.I know gays r people with feelings. So strictly no comments on it ? PAP has feelings too u know. Terrorists have feelings too u know. Panja has feelings too u know. So since we can't talk anymore we might as well close down the whole system of forums.
and did we not try to understand ALL of the above before deciding on the merits of their views?
comment all we want. i will call a terrorist a maniac and a bloody killer for what they've done, but i also know that many of them have very real grievances... i don't think its worth killing for, but who am i to judge?
so all in all, let me just say that i come here in the spirit of sharing views... we can have another panja type discussion where i just agree with u without question and we nod, shake hands and end the discussion... is that what u want? are u panja?
i'll never totally accept your position, just as u'll never totally accept mine... but it doesn't help for u to get touchy and personal. -
[quote]ever occured to u that if sexuality is socially determined, we might actually be ENFORCING and making permanent their sexuality because we alienate an ostracise them from mainstream society? Have u ever occur tat most of our behaviours we exhibits r inherited and enforce from society ? If mainstream society doesn't exists, our behaviours may go back thousands of years ago where men kill people just to "snatch" his territory or men go around raping girls just because they feel like it. Instead of working, people may be robbing to survive. Is some form of enforcement on behaviours unaceptable ? Is enforcing and making permanent their sexuality necessary a bad thing ?all i did was offer an alterative view and u go on a moral crusade to say that i have insulted u, your son AND that u are justly right in discriminating against homosexuals. [/quote]
At wat expense ? Please remember tat I was the one tat share my alternative view and I get attack badly by your following reply. Is tat how u share your alternative view ? By being malicious and give bad joke and bad examples to someone's close kins ?why sad? does it make him any less of a person?
would he be suddenly diminished in your eyes?
his education, his brains, his achievements would all count for nothing?u judge a person strictly based on who he / she fucks?
"don't let your child see or hear it" ??? while u're at it, make sure that he doesn't see or hear about "poverty" , "disease" , "crime" , "war" and "sex" as well...
u can't protect a person from knowledge... i would rather have a good conversation with a well-read and intelligent gay-man than to sit down with a narrow, ignorant, homophobe.
ultimately, we all gotta realise that its plain stupid to see them as sexually threatening to us.
not all gay-men wanna have sex with your son, stupidissmart...i'm not perfect either. but i have my point too and i'm sharing it with u.
this is my honest response to u as well.Is true that some people choose to be gays because they r born tat way. However the public attitude towards gay still plays a part. From wat I have seen, those countries tat support gays movement have a higher proportion of gays.
Yah right.. I share my views and wat do I get out of it ? Please read back to my first line.
Someone born slightly "gayish" but can still live a straight life if society influences people to be normal. On the other hand someone both slightly more toward being "straight" will be influence into being a gay if society display this possibility to them... Peer pressure is something very real. If all your friends are gays and u mixed often wih them, there is a high chance u will becomes one too...
We r not going to hunt all the gays and burn them on stakes... I just hope tat watever they do, don't let me or my children see or hear it... To me if my son suddenly tell me he is a gay, It will be something really sad.....i'll never totally accept your position, just as u'll never totally accept mine... but it doesn't help for u to get touchy and personal.
Who is the one tat start to get touchy and personal in the first place ? When I offer some alternative views wat happened ? How is my tone when I first address this issue ? Is the culture here so aggressive tat every single remarks will be treated with sarcarsism and insults ? I just give a personal opinion and I get hit left, right, up and down for it. Next time I will keep my mouth shut and not offer any suggestions and views on sensitive issues, much like typical panja type discussion. -
Cool down guys. It's only a discussion topic.
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who's the one taking it personal here and going on a moral crusade?
i already said from the start... i never meant to offend. i can't help the other person if he loves to hold on to imagined insults and keeps hurling it back.
its pretty obvious that this society is not open enough to accept differences yet... -
unfortunately thats a sad thing about singaporeans, we're so full of ourselves that we think we can make fun of people though insults and tell them not to be "touchy" since its only a joke and its "good " for themOriginally posted by stupidissmart:Who is the one tat start to get touchy and personal in the first place ? When I offer some alternative views wat happened ? How is my tone when I first address this issue ? Is the culture here so aggressive tat every single remarks will be treated with sarcarsism and insults ? I just give a personal opinion and I get hit left, right, up and down for it. Next time I will keep my mouth shut and not offer any suggestions and views on sensitive issues, much like typical panja type discussion.
it seems we really are feed on pigswill -
i don't deny that it is a provocative thought... but i do not intend to use it to offend you... merely to challenge certain commonly held assumptions about sexuality.
U do not intend to offend me, but u highly likely know the potential of it. I HAVE BEEN OFFENDED, and I DON'T CARE wat is your original intentions when u made tat statement. Using BAD EXAMPLES in BAD TASTE, BAD FASHION to justify something FOR the public by ATTACKING 1 individual who had done NOTHING is intolerable.i can't help the other person if he loves to hold on to imagined insults and keeps hurling it back.
Imagined insults ? WHy don't u ask the opinions of other people ? Tat is IMAGINED or DIRECT ? No matter how I see this statementnot all gay-men wanna have sex with your son, stupidissmart...
It is a pure insult. Simple straight-forward insult.