What's the background on this PRC brouhaha?
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Guys, help me out here. I just got back from Melbourne in December, so I'm not up to speed on this issue. Does anybody have answers to the following questions?
1) How many PRC students is the Singaporean government sponsoring?
2) What is the value of each grant?
3) What does the Singaporean government get out of sponsoring these students?
4) In relation to question 3, what can the PRC students do that the local population cannot?
5) Does this kind of grant apply to students of other nations?
6) What the hell's a "study mama"? -
Singapore is the developed country and it is the duty to help any developing countries.
Other questions are not important.Originally posted by Gedanken:Guys, help me out here. I just got back from Melbourne in December, so I'm not up to speed on this issue. Does anybody have answers to the following questions?
1) How many PRC students is the Singaporean government sponsoring?
2) What is the value of each grant?
3) What does the Singaporean government get out of sponsoring these students?
4) In relation to question 3, what can the PRC students do that the local population cannot?
5) Does this kind of grant apply to students of other nations?
6) What the hell's a "study mama"? -
Thank you Gautama Buddha. Now, does anybody have a constructive answer?
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aint got much free time, i shoot the easiest one firstOriginally posted by Gedanken:6) What the hell's a "study mama"?
"study mama" are moms of china students....
they follow their son/dotter to singapore to accompany them....take care of their needs while their son/dotter study.....
side note, many of these moms are not allowed to work....cos they hold a social visit pass...but they need money here so they work illegally......some as massage ladies.....some as dishwashers at kopitiams......some at geylang, the infamous trade......
it's become quite a social problem as well as reflecting "bad" on china ladies.......
govt did attempt to alleviate this prob.....by granting them work permits...but i think it's conditional and need to pay some deposit or wat........not sure..... -
How many PRC students is the Singaporean government sponsoring?
Not very sureWhat is the value of each grant?
It depends on whether you want to calculate the fees in terms of subsidise or unsubsidise school fees. Gov is supposed to have paid 80% of school fees for us. If going by subsidise school fees, the total fees for 4 years should be 5000X4 about 20k. However the school fees should be somewhere between 5000-6000, not 5000. Actual figures uncertain. Every month they get about $500++ total for living expenses and hostel expenses. That will be 4X12X500 = 24k.
This figure has not included the period they stayed over in singapore to learn english (range from 1/2 year to 2, depend on whether you have been selected from their university or from their High school) or the coming over and return airline tickets. (Coming over to singapore is sponsored while after graduation they get a free ticket back to China too)
If you ask me, the value is about 60k++. If going by unsubsidise school fees, it will be much moreWhat does the Singaporean government get out of sponsoring these students
They must stay here for 6 years. The good thing is that since they are scholars studying Engineering, they do help in increasing the number of engineers here. They are also good in studies making them worthy reseachers. Singapore need a lot of engineers here. Either one forced singaporean to be engineering or one have to resort to this costly method to increase the numbers of engineering here.In relation to question 3, what can the PRC students do that the local population cannot
They offer an increase in numbers in engineers here. They seems to be better academically. They boost the racial mix here. They increase the singapore population. This policy is relatively appreciated by China Gov too as a sign of friendship between the 2 countries. They "widen" the gene pool here.Does this kind of grant apply to students of other nations
It is applied to Indian scholars too. ASEAN scholars have another scheme where they work for 2 years studying at subsidised school fees.What the hell's a "study mama"?
Well... it seems that China student coming over here to study tend to suffer from depression since they have no kins here. Some of them are also intimidated by the Chinese scholars here.
They appears to be very attached to their parents since they are the only child. Heard that there are a number of China scholars committing suicide after they arrived over here and cannot cope with depression. Therefore Singapore allow their mother to come over to work. The mother appear not to get any grant of money, just a work permit and had to find work to support themselves. -
don't be crazy, its our tax money, we have a right to know, even 5 year old kids here have to pay taxes(gst) i'm sure you don't want everyone here turning into panjas right?, slinging insults without reason, and we're not helping any developing country by doing thisOriginally posted by chualcsg:Singapore is the developed country and it is the duty to help any developing countries.
Other questions are not important.
its more like for ourselves only the results were not the ones desired -
Doesn't Singapore already have more than enough engineers? Aren't there supposed to be swathes of engineers out of work in Singapore?
I don't have any statistics on this point, just my observations from reading the papers and experiences with my out-of-work engineer friends. -
don't mind him..
he's one of those who think that china should run the whole universe..Originally posted by oldbreadstinks:don't be crazy, its our tax money, we have a right to know, even 5 year old kids here have to pay taxes(gst) i'm sure you don't want everyone here turning into panjas right?, slinging insults without reason, and we're not helping any developing country by doing this
its more like for ourselves only the results were not the ones desired -
need "foreign talents" mahOriginally posted by subudei:Doesn't Singapore already have more than enough engineers? Aren't there supposed to be swathes of engineers out of work in Singapore?
I don't have any statistics on this point, just my observations from reading the papers and experiences with my out-of-work engineer friends. -
About the number of engineers here in singapore, I do not have any statistic with me too. However I know that most manufacturing based companies need lots and lots of engineer. They have QA, Process, Mechanical, Computing, Electrical, System, Yield, Manufacturing, Supervisor etc etc etc.
My impression is that, yes there is still a demand for engineers in singapore. -
the only sponsoring i know of is tuition grants, though i'm not sure of the amount. if they take the grant, they have to remain in singapore to work for the next 2 years. if they forego the grant, they can go home after graduation.
never heard about the sponsored flights. -
That is for China and Indian scholars, not ASEAN scholars.
Their bonds will be 6 years to singapore. -
Why not make the bond the 10 years? 6 years a bit short! They take 3 years to study then work only 3 years and then they byebye to american or back to china! I heard that a lot of them r using spore as stepping stone to USA cos we r the carrot head paying so much to let them study here and providing a english speaking environment fot them to learn english!
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No no no. 4 years study here + 6 years working here. The 6 years does not include the time for study.
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I see! Sorry for my misunderstanding!Originally posted by socrates:No no no. 4 years study here + 6 years working here. The 6 years does not include the time for study. -
I not exactly sure if we should get overly emotional about this, after all, the gar'em offical foriegn talent policy has always been geared towards messing up locals from the start, and it's not like they have been exactly covert about that...
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i learnt a new word today!
brouhaha.
brou·ha·ha ( P ) Pronunciation Key (brhä-hä)
n.
An uproar; a hubbub.
thanks ged!
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So if there is a demand for engineers in Singapore, are Singaporean students not filling that demand? What justifies the cost of bringing Chinese students to fill these places at polytechnics and universities, when these places could be filled by Singaporeans?
don, here's another one for you: shenanigans! -
So if there is a demand for engineers in Singapore, are Singaporean students not filling that demand? What justifies the cost of bringing Chinese students to fill these places at polytechnics and universities, when these places could be filled by Singaporeans?
I do not have any facts or statistic with me. All I can say is I guess most people do not want to be in engineering . All these years we can see university dropping their standard of admission for engineering student. Now students DO NOT have to take physic in A level to qualify to take up Engineering course, which I feel is ridiculous. Getting a pass in GP is not necessary too. Engineering is one of the hardest course to learn yet becomes one of the easiest to enter. Despite these attempts, people still put engineering as the worst possible course to take up. Even when they graduate with a Eng degree, they refuse to take up Engineering job too.
Most people prefer to be in other fields like teacher, policemen, fiancial but not engineer. IMO engineering is one of the worse job... My friends seemed to work too hard, get too little and get all the blame (general case) If I have a choice I will rather be a teacher -
Okay, but how does that square with all the anecdotal evidence around that shows that there are large numbers of Singaporean engineering graduates who are out of work? I don't think -all- of them are refusing to take up engineering jobs, right? My unemployed engineer friends certain aren't.
Or is the excess local demand for engineers concentrated in particular types of engineering, perhaps, e.g. material, electronic, etc? Maybe we have a glut of graduates in certain fields of engineering and a shortfall of them in those other fields which are in demand in the job market? -
Ged, let me fill you in...Originally posted by Gedanken:Guys, help me out here. I just got back from Melbourne in December, so I'm not up to speed on this issue. Does anybody have answers to the following questions?
1) How many PRC students is the Singaporean government sponsoring?
2) What is the value of each grant?
3) What does the Singaporean government get out of sponsoring these students?
4) In relation to question 3, what can the PRC students do that the local population cannot?
5) Does this kind of grant apply to students of other nations?
6) What the hell's a "study mama"?
3) Spore is easy to get in compared to preferred destinations such as US/ Cdn/ Oz. There are 2 types. Those on grants and those who are spending their own money. As far as the grant ones are concerned, this is part of the foreign talent effort. Most of these students are offered PR status to work for Spore when the graduate. The other thing is that when these students settle down in Singapore, they become channels or drivers for enhancing Spore's penetration into the PRC markets, kind of like the various economic/ business consultancy firms financed by foreign countries. E.g. Germany sponsors various projects in other countries in the hope that it helps promote use of German brands, technology. -
Thanks for that, Xprobe.Originally posted by Xprobe:Ged, let me fill you in...
3) Spore is easy to get in compared to preferred destinations such as US/ Cdn/ Oz. There are 2 types. Those on grants and those who are spending their own money. As far as the grant ones are concerned, this is part of the foreign talent effort. Most of these students are offered PR status to work for Spore when the graduate. The other thing is that when these students settle down in Singapore, they become channels or drivers for enhancing Spore's penetration into the PRC markets, kind of like the various economic/ business consultancy firms financed by foreign countries. E.g. Germany sponsors various projects in other countries in the hope that it helps promote use of German brands, technology.
I'm all for bringing in foreign talent if that talent fills a need that the local population cannot. I haven't seen any facts or figures about how capable the local population is of filling Singapore's engineering needs, but it just doesn't make intuitive sense that China can fill Singapore's need in this department. Considering how Singaporean engineers were sent to Suzhou to help out, for example, would the need in fact not be acting in the other direction?
Vis-a-vis how Germany sponsors projects in other countries, it seems to be that it is different because it is not carried out at the expense of educational and work placements of Germany's own citizens - have I missed something here? -
My take is that it shoots a few birds with one arrow:Originally posted by Gedanken:Thanks for that, Xprobe.
I'm all for bringing in foreign talent if that talent fills a need that the local population cannot. I haven't seen any facts or figures about how capable the local population is of filling Singapore's engineering needs, but it just doesn't make intuitive sense that China can fill Singapore's need in this department. Considering how Singaporean engineers were sent to Suzhou to help out, for example, would the need in fact not be acting in the other direction?
Vis-a-vis how Germany sponsors projects in other countries, it seems to be that it is different because it is not carried out at the expense of educational and work placements of Germany's own citizens - have I missed something here?
1. Maintain racial proportion status quo
2. Why not? Good enuff if they can get an Eng. degree from Singapore Uni.
3. Seeding Spore's future penetration into PRC.
Suzhou is a totally different story. A miscalculation. As the poem goes for this fiasco:
Scholar scholar burning bright,
Whats thy fate after the Suzhou plight,
Stamford, Oxford and Ivy League theories,
Still ganna screwed and left with worries,
Cant you see my Golden Child,
The world dont turn to your dial. -
Not to sound anti-Chinese, cos I am partially Chinese but I think that they should throw the damn racial quota's to the air.Chinese supremacy my ass.The proportions will change given the mixing of the different ethnic groups in Singapore.For god's sake,many Malay and Indian men marry Chinese women as they are the most numerous.I forsee a decline in the Chinese population to perhaps half of the population within a few generations.Singapore is not a chinese country nor is it a part of Greater China.Singapore should be true to its multiracial heritage,not like it is now.That is why I bear a resentment to this country,for betraying its multiracial,multicultural heritage though I still love it.I just feel that certain ethnic groups are treated "more equally" than others.Witness the Speak Mandarin campaign,the predominance of PRC scholars over those from other countries,the restriction on Malays serving in the SAF(though that is justified given the religion),the superiority complex that some peopleOriginally posted by Xprobe:My take is that it shoots a few birds with one arrow:
1. Maintain racial proportion status quo
2. Why not? Good enuff if they can get an Eng. degree from Singapore Uni.
3. Seeding Spore's future penetration into PRC.
Suzhou is a totally different story. A miscalculation. As the poem goes for this fiasco:
Scholar scholar burning bright,
Whats thy fate after the Suzhou plight,
Stamford, Oxford and Ivy League theories,
Still ganna screwed and left with worries,
Cant you see my Golden Child,
The world dont turn to your dial.
Regarding the study mama's,they are mothers of China students who come here to study at secondary or primary level and work here to support their children while they study here.There have been 'problems' with them such as visa violations and the perception that China women cause social problems.Admittedly,while most are decent enough,some do cause trouble.
As for engineering degrees from Singapore uni,I suppose that they are trying to raise the standards of the uni,to raise its status in China.I have known many PRC students while studying in Sydney,and that work pretty damn hard.
Also,seeding Singapore's future penetration into the PRC market,it is pragmatic to take this approach,but must it be at the cost of the locals?China's rise is inevitable,but we should balance out our investments by taking Thai's,Indonesians,Indians and Filipinos also.That way we get to penetrate the markets of these countries as well.Thailand is a rising star under Thaksin,and Indonesia has amazing potential.All they need is some discipline and efficiency and they could outstrip even us!
Btw,relying on PRC alone is a fool's choice.We should diversify and take in foreigners from other countries as well,as it would help to diversify our gene pool. -
Considering how Singaporean engineers were sent to Suzhou to help out, for example, would the need in fact not be acting in the other direction
The numbers of engineers going to be fixed. Even if there is a serious demand of engineer here, these engineer still need to go to suzhou to help out. I think this does not reflect on the actual demand for engineers here.but how does that square with all the anecdotal evidence around that shows that there are large numbers of Singaporean engineering graduates who are out of work? I don't think -all- of them are refusing to take up engineering jobs, right? My unemployed engineer friends certain aren't.
Well... I think there may be a need to ask what is the honours that some of these people got. Looking around, I see a lot of people already being recruited by companies even before they graduate. Now the Microelectronic sector is MASSIVELY recruiting more people.
Another point is, before the economic downturn, there is an acute need for engineers. It is during these years of turmoil that the demand had reduced. Now things are looking up again.Not to sound anti-Chinese, cos I am partially Chinese but I think that they should throw the damn racial quota's to the air.Chinese supremacy my ass.The proportions will change given the mixing of the different ethnic groups in Singapore.For god's sake,many Malay and Indian men marry Chinese women as they are the most numerous.I forsee a decline in the Chinese population to perhaps half of the population within a few generations.Singapore is not a chinese country nor is it a part of Greater China.Singapore should be true to its multiracial heritage,not like it is now.That is why I bear a resentment to this country,for betraying its multiracial,multicultural heritage though I still love it.I just feel that certain ethnic groups are treated "more equally" than others.Witness the Speak Mandarin campaign,the predominance of PRC scholars over those from other countries,the restriction on Malays serving in the SAF(though that is justified given the religion),the superiority complex that some people
Actually I do not blame you for feeling that the Gov seems to be all for certain races.
It had to resort to artificial means to establish the racial proportions of the people.
However if the racial mix has changed drastically for the country, it may means some problems. Some of them are, as you have said, the number of people able to be selected for army. There may arises some other problems such as social injustice where a small minority of races get the most of the riches. As can be seen in Indonesia, the chinese turn out to be the richer group of people which cannot be accepted well by the majority of the citizens. Anyway this is just my opinion...Also,seeding Singapore's future penetration into the PRC market,it is pragmatic to take this approach,but must it be at the cost of the locals?China's rise is inevitable,but we should balance out our investments by taking Thai's,Indonesians,Indians and Filipinos also.That way we get to penetrate the markets of these countries as well.Thailand is a rising star under Thaksin,and Indonesia has amazing potential.All they need is some discipline and efficiency and they could outstrip even us!
Actually they do not just recruit people from china, they too recruit a lot of people from ASEAN such as from Indonesia, India, Vietnam, Malaysia etc. When one is in university such as NTU, one can also see their vast numbers of these other foreigners around too.
When giving scholarship to other countries citizen asking them over here to study, it had to be approve by their Gov as well. Looking it from another angle, this is a brain drain from their country.