Homosexual
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hi loudmonkey
mentality and hormone? in my thinkings.. they do the 'tricks' that cause the existence of homos?
just my views 'don't flame mi yeahhh' -
Well I dont understand the scientific part of how the genes affect one's mentality, since I am no scientist, but from the website which I referenced, it is much easier to understand the external factors that influences human behaviour/tendencies (homosexual behaviour/tendencies in this case).Originally posted by ^sylvia^:hi loudmonkey
mentality and hormone? in my thinkings.. they do the 'tricks' that cause the existence of homos?
Have a look. The webby is easy to read.
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wie geht's, Loudmonkey?Originally posted by loudmonkey:Haiz...cant imagine that this "debate" can stretch on for so long.....
and with all the insults and name calling, this thread isnt very friendly leh..........I mean, isnt there anything that PRP, HENG@ and CX agree on?
On the other hand, has anyone researched into why people become homo in the first place? from this thread and the previous one, seems there is little info as to the root causes of people turning les/gay. And I would suggest that it has little to do with genetic influence, rather it is the environmental factors that are the real determinants of turning homo.
I found an interesting webby, hope it can promote better understanding into les/gay mentality:
http://www.freetobeme.com/
Just my 2 cents worth.
basically I and CX agree mostly with each other. we are just against PRP's overly simplistic black and white only view of the whole issue. This whole thing is a large grey area, it definately doesn't help if someone taking part in the debate is one who is only able to view things in black and white. its not so much about right or wrong. its about how his view is polarised. -
doesn't help that all he's shoving in our faces are his daft "opinions"...
i keep saying... PROOF!?
how to say for sure that one "type" (assuming that there is more than one "type" ) of human is more "normal" (what is your standard of "norm"? ) than another?
its pure nonsense... -
CX said the question "Is heterosexuality right?" was a bad question.Readers, do u have any comment?
CX,
U want me to give proof.What about u show me proof that homo is right/no right or wrong.
u claim smoking has much health benefits.So the govt is wrong to discourage smoking, right?
U are really bigoted & unreasonable & like to make insulting remarks.Just my opinion in response to your insulting words. -
I said use science to judge whether homo is right.CX disagreed totally.Don't use scientific principles,then use what?Just follow your & other homo's viewpoints?FOOLISH!
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Loudmonkey,
Pleased to read your msg.I've suggested homos to tell why they become so,but i got no response.Probably they want us to think they are born like that.I really don't think so.What u say should be the reason. -
loudmonkey, i've read that webby yeah.. thanks alot for that.
sorry to have reply just so late -
Originally posted by PRP:Loudmonkey,
Pleased to read your msg.I've suggested homos to tell why they become so,but i got no response.Probably they want us to think they are born like that.I really don't think so.What u say should be the reason.
haha... i dunno why or how gay-people become gay...
but would u like to share with us why or how stupid pple become stupid? -
I have some opinions about this question from PRP's post: Is homosexuality right?Originally posted by PRP:CX said the question "Is heterosexuality right?" was a bad question.Readers, do u have any comment?
CX,
U want me to give proof.What about u show me proof that homo is right/no right or wrong.
u claim smoking has much health benefits.So the govt is wrong to discourage smoking, right?
U are really bigoted & unreasonable & like to make insulting remarks.Just my opinion in response to your insulting words.
First define what is homosexuality, right, and wrong, from dictionary.com:
HOMOSEXUALITY:
1) Sexual activity with another of the same sex.
2) A sexual attraction to (or sexual relations with) persons of the same sex.
I would construe "activity" to mean having sex, and "sexual attraction" to mean love, i.e. love between persons of the same sex.
RIGHT (there are 11 definitions, but for the purposes of this post, 3 are relevant here):
1) Conforming with or conformable to justice, law, or morality: do the right thing and confess.
2) In accordance with fact, reason, or truth; correct: the right answer.
3) Fitting, proper, or appropriate: It is not right to leave the party without saying goodbye.
WRONG (many definitions as well, but these are relevant):
1) Not in conformity with fact or truth; incorrect or erroneous.
2) Contrary to conscience, morality, or law; immoral or wicked.
3) Unacceptable or undesirable according to social convention.
I guess, that the essence or gist of PRP's question is: Is homosexuality acceptable or desirable according to social convention?
Let me define social convention to include LEGAL, RELIGIOUS and MORAL bearings on society. It would naturally be in the Singapore context of course.
I start from the LEGAL viewpoint first:
Fact: In Singapore, it is illegal to have sex with a another person of the seme sex.
Fact: There is no law in Singapore that says loving one person of the same sex is against the law.
Does LEGAL = Right and ILLEGAL = wrong? FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT, I will assume the above. If homosexuality means ONLY having sex, then it is WRONG. When homosexuality means love, it is NOT illegal certainly, so it is RIGHT.
Note however, that this is strictly a legal viewpoint, and when people talk about right or wrong, it really goes beyond the legalistic definition that I have restricted myself above. How can it be that when something is legal, it can be RIGHT? Or when something is illegal, it is wrong?
I use the following example: possession and consumption of chewing gum in Singapore is illegal, so it is wrong in a legal sense, but certainly not wrong in a moral sense! I can chew gum in Malaysia, where it is legal! But then there is nothing wrong or right about chewing gum in Malaysia, it is simply whether u want to chew gum or not.
Anyway, I am rather uncomfortable with saying that when homosexuality = love, it is RIGHT just because it is not illegal. I certainly do not think that homosexuality, whether for sex or for love, is RIGHT. But I also think it is not WRONG either. Let me explain further.
When one looks at this from the RELIGIOUS viewpoint, then it becomes more complicated.
Christianity certainly doesnt allow same sex relations, therefore it is morally and religiously WRONG to have same sex relations, but as far as I know, Buddhist rules has nothing against homosexuality, but it doesnt encourage it either. There is even a forum for gay buddhists in Singapore, which I saw previously. So different religions have different prespectives. From a buddhist prespective, there isn't even a right or wrong to talk about.
SO if one doesnt care about the legal stuff, then it depends on what religion the person believes.
Finally, the MORAL viewpoint. I would take the MORAL viewpoint to mean a societal norm.
Definition of NORM from dictionary.com: A standard, model, or pattern regarded as typical: the current middle-class norm of two children per family
May I expand the definition further: that a norm would be determined by the majority of a population in a society.
It is quite indisputable that the majority of Singaporeans see homosexuality (whether for sex or for love) as taboo, as it clashes with traditional values and perception that heterosexual relations is necessary for the creation of the next generation.
However, with the influence from the west, the spread of homosexual culture from the west has gained ground in Singapore, since more people now are more open and liberal to different aspects of life, such as taking drugs, pre-martial sex, and naturally homosexualism.
As a society progress, it is inevitable that the values of people change over time to keep up with society's new demands. Change is a constant.
Thus, while one can say that homosexuality was wrong 50 years ago, one cannot say it in this era anymore. Times have changed. But I wont say that homosexuality is right. It is just something that everyone has to accept, whether we like it or not. And who knows, if in future when having sex with someone of the same sex is legalised, not only would it become acceptable, it may very well be the RIGHT thing to do, since medical science mey be so advanced that women may no longer be needed to create babies. (this is obviously too futuristic, but I am trying to get across my point that when our environment change, values change along with it too, and it is already happening in Singapore)
So in conclusion: It is not helpful or useful to say whether homosexuality is right or wrong, rather it is more of a personal choice I feel.
And if you are wondering how people turn homosexual, I would like to forward your attention to 2 websites:
www.peoplecanchange.com
www.freetobeme.com
That would answer PRP's questions right at the beginning of this thread effectively, I hope. There is no scientific proof to determine homosexuality IMHO, but it is more of external environmental factors that turn people's mentality to become homosexual. But they can come out of it, if they have the determination to.
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And furthermore, may I add that questions like "are homosexuals abnormal" are irrelevant, since i have explained previously that norms always change.
Shall we close the topic and move on? -
My stand is the same as Accela's view.Originally posted by Accela:I don't hate the homosexual but I do disagree with homosexuality.
I wish more surfers would express the same stand so that CX wouldn't think i am the only person holding this stand and say i am bigoted. -
u are a bigot not because u disagree with homosexuality... Heng@ doesn't go out of his way to agree with homosexuality as well... and he acknowledges that he is "homophobic"... and uncomfortable in their presence.Originally posted by PRP:My stand is the same as Accela's view.
I wish more surfers would express the same stand so that CX wouldn't think i am the only person holding this stand and say i am bigoted.
but i do not call Heng@ a bigot and a moron because he understands the complexities of the situation: that though he disagrees, it is rather silly to ask "right / wrong" questions about it.
u are a bigot and a moron because u ask silly questions and insist over 6, 7 pages that pple prove that u're an idiot.
u are a bigot and a moron because u insist that everything falls into your morose categories of "right / wrong" and refuse to see it when pple tell u that the situation is more complex than that.
you are a bigot and a moron beause your opening statement already states that u find homosexuality "abnormal and unnatural" when we keep telling u that both these labels are relative and artificial. u have no business judging pple that way. -
Loudmonkey,
U put a very comprehensive argument on the topic.
I don't judge whether homo is right or wrong base on social convention.It is because the view of the majority can be wrong.I judge it acording to scientific principles.
I disagree with one of your conclusion that better notto judge whether homo is right or not becuase it is more a question of personal choice.
CX,
U seem angry with my viewpoint. Either homo is right or wrong.There are 2 choices. I take the stand that it is wrong while u take the stand it is right/no right or wrong.If u think homo is right,u can do what u like.I can't stop u.Why worry what other ppl say it is wrong?I say it is wrong,some ppl support me and some don't.This is the fact of life.Using the word 'moron' in this discussion is unnecessary. -
Some surfers say there is no right or wrong about homo.Actually they don't know rather than 'no right or wrong'.They never think hard enuf on this matter.
They say sexuality is like choosing between apple or durian.So there is no right or wrong.What happen if homo is a rotten apple?Homosex is indeed wrong and so it is a 'rotten apple'.
It is wrong because it is inmoral & against nature,so are sex with animals and children.
As i have use the analogy: If one eats from his mouth,he is right.If one eats from his anus,he is wrong.Why wrong?The answer is very obvious,isn't it?
CX,
If u don't like my viewpoint,i think u can don't read this topic.Wouldn't u? -
Point taken, PRP.Originally posted by PRP:Loudmonkey,
U put a very comprehensive argument on the topic.
I don't judge whether homo is right or wrong base on social convention.It is because the view of the majority can be wrong.I judge it acording to scientific principles.
I disagree with one of your conclusion that better notto judge whether homo is right or not becuase it is more a question of personal choice.
Well it seems to me that u have to provide the scientific principles. I dont know if it is true that people are born gay because of some genetic deficiency or fault. U need to provide the information and let readers decide.
And until that information is provided, I am still of the opinion that gay people become gay because of external environmental influences. It is because of these influences which made them decide to be gay in the end, which is obviously a personal decision of choice.
Happy researching! -
Originally posted by PRP:
ever occured to u that it is YOU who had not thought hard and read deep enough on the matter?
Some surfers say there is no right or wrong about homo.Actually they don't know rather than 'no right or wrong'.They never think hard enuf on this matter.They say sexuality is like choosing between apple or durian.So there is no right or wrong.What happen if homo is a rotten apple?Homosex is indeed wrong and so it is a 'rotten apple'.
the only thing rotten i see is the quality of your bigoted reasoning.It is wrong because it is inmoral & against nature,so are sex with animals and children.
totally different matters but u can go screw a moose for all i care... i might not agree with beastiality, but i just might respect your choice.As i have use the analogy: If one eats from his mouth,he is right.If one eats from his anus,he is wrong.Why wrong?The answer is very obvious,isn't it?
and why does homosexuality = anal sex? is that 100% true? does that not show just how ignorant and twisted u are?
in another way of looking at it, isn't it both possible to breathe through BOTH your nose AND your mouth?
if the objective is just ejaculation, there are more than one orifice in the human anatomy that can fulfil the function.
so is masturbation unnatural and abnormal as well?
and isn't it bizarre that certain g-spots and nerve endings occur close to the anal passage? if they were never meant to be stimulated, then why are they there???
there is nothing "scientific" about your view... is reproduction the only function of fornication? if so, then why doesn't humans mate only at certain fixed mating seasons? since fornication = reproduction, we shouldn't be having sex any time we can and want right?
why is it possible to map the female ovulating cycle to have sex without impregnation? why do we even NEED orgasms (or multiple orgasms in females) ? since reproduction is SUPPOSED to be a natural drive in living things and we should all do it without much encouragements right? so why should we even enjoy it???
hmmm... and while we're on it, WHY do only female possess the ability for multiple orgasms? does that not suggest that monogamy is "unscientific" as well?
does it not suggest that a female was MEANT and INTENDED to mate with several males to ensure impregnation, since they can keep going consecutively while a man is wiped out for at least a short while after ejaculation?
u wanna take sexuality "scientifically " ? explain this then.
if u cannot even properly explain hetrosexual behavior, i suggest u leave homosexuality alone.CX,
u don't like MY viewpoints too... why don't u just not reply?
If u don't like my viewpoint,i think u can don't read this topic.Wouldn't u?
"bigot" and "moron" in your case, isn't even an insult anymore... its an observation. -
u're waiting for proof? haha... good luck... join the queue...Originally posted by loudmonkey:Point taken, PRP.
Well it seems to me that u have to provide the scientific principles. I dont know if it is true that people are born gay because of some genetic deficiency or fault. U need to provide the information and let readers decide.
And until that information is provided, I am still of the opinion that gay people become gay because of external environmental influences. It is because of these influences which made them decide to be gay in the end, which is obviously a personal decision of choice.
Happy researching!
i thought that your take on how different religion viewed sexuality quite interesting. nice to see pple think on different levels about complex issues. -
buddy, talking to you is like talking to a damned brick wall, except maybe u'd get an echo out of a brick wall. Homo is NOT EITHER RIGHT OR WRONG. THERE IS NO 2 CHOICES. ITS ONE DAMN BIG GREY AREA. HOW THE HELL DO U WANT US TO EXPLAIN THAT BEFORE U CAN GET THAT INTO YOUR NARROW MIND?Originally posted by PRP:Loudmonkey,
U put a very comprehensive argument on the topic.
I don't judge whether homo is right or wrong base on social convention.It is because the view of the majority can be wrong.I judge it acording to scientific principles.
I disagree with one of your conclusion that better notto judge whether homo is right or not becuase it is more a question of personal choice.
CX,
U seem angry with my viewpoint. Either homo is right or wrong.There are 2 choices. I take the stand that it is wrong while u take the stand it is right/no right or wrong.If u think homo is right,u can do what u like.I can't stop u.Why worry what other ppl say it is wrong?I say it is wrong,some ppl support me and some don't.This is the fact of life.Using the word 'moron' in this discussion is unnecessary. -
u stil trying too?
i think he's just trying to bore us into agreeing with him... -
Loudmonkey,
I have the same opinion with u that homo is due to environmental factor. But many ppl think that they are born like that.If they are born like that,nothing can be done to change it.So the homo choose to be homo.I say they make a wrong choice. -
CX,
By calling me moron,this shows u are BANKRUPT intellectually.
U can talk a lot but don't have any valid point.I leave it to the readers themselves to judge whether my msg below is right.Originally posted by PRP:Some surfers say there is no right or wrong about homo.Actually they don't know rather than 'no right or wrong'.They never think hard enuf on this matter.
They say sexuality is like choosing between apple or durian.So there is no right or wrong.What happen if homo is a rotten apple?Homosex is indeed wrong and so it is a 'rotten apple'.
It is wrong because it is inmoral & against nature,so are sex with animals and children.
As i have use the analogy: If one eats from his mouth,he is right.If one eats from his anus,he is wrong.Why wrong?The answer is very obvious,isn't it?
CX,
If u don't like my viewpoint,i think u can don't read this topic.Wouldn't u? -
forget it. as long as u cannot even understand a simple fact of life, that is, nothing is always black n white, u are what he says u are.Originally posted by PRP:CX,
By calling me moron,this shows u are BANKRUPT intellectually.
U can talk a lot but don't have any valid point.I leave it to the readers themselves to judge whether my msg below is right. -
by refusing to address my points, u show yourself to be the intellectual non-entity that u have always been.Originally posted by PRP:CX,
By calling me moron,this shows u are BANKRUPT intellectually.
U can talk a lot but don't have any valid point.I leave it to the readers themselves to judge whether my msg below is right.
i may be curt, sarcastic and cynical now, but i can be nice if i want to... YOU however, will always be shallow and stupid. -
Many pple THINK they are born like that: do they have any medical evidence to prove their claim? IMO, I do not think they are born to become homos later in life. Of course, if they have evidence, I will believe them. If the lesbians and gays want to claim this without showing evidence, I will laugh and think that they dont know what they are talking about.Originally posted by PRP:Loudmonkey,
I have the same opinion with u that homo is due to environmental factor. But many ppl think that they are born like that.
It is my belief that the process of growing up, relationship with family, interaction with friends, i.e. the external environmental factors, will influence in whether a person chooses to be homo or not.If they are born like that,nothing can be done to change it.[/quote]
If (and only if) there is scientific evidence that they contain certain genes that make them homo when they grow up, then I will fully agree with your thinking that they are born like that, and nothing can be done to change it.So the homo choose to be homo.
when you say "so the homo choose to be homo", you are assuming that the person is born a homo, which contradicts your agreement with me that becoming homo is due to external environmental factors. If you really agree with me, then how can a person who is already born to be homo CHOOSE to be homo later in life? It is like saying, how can a boy (who is already born a boy) choose to be a boy?
[quote]I say they make a wrong choice.I dont agree with you, but I respect your opinion.
Anyway, it is not for us to judge them, since we are not les/gay. Be it right or wrong, they must be prepared to take in the social consequences of making that choice.
They need to decide themselves if it is in their best interest to be homo or not, so only they can decide if it was a wrong or right choice.
[/quote][/b]