DIPLOMA USELESS IN SINGAPORE
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I wouldn't refuse your opinion if u insist on your great paper qualification. Take note that what I have stated refers to job that can be done by both dip/deg holders. Pls dun take master/PHD into it. That is another topic and it doesn't make sense to compare with them.Originally posted by TrU PeAce (^0*)v:I agree wif FireIce on some jobs require a degree, while some require a diploma. All these while i am not nailing down on diploma, but stating that companies prefer diploma holders because they can work better than degree holders is a dirrect assault. y dun say better than PHD ...better right? come on, degree provides a solid foundation for education, if u can, proceed to master and phd. If u think degree is useless, y r so many poly students apply to uni? And how u work actually depends on each individual character, not our cert. We MUST know where we stand in the society in order to survive. Know what u r good at, and make a living out of ur gift. Try applying to Multi International Company , those giant cooperation like Shell, Exxon...u can feel it man!! Even a degree with poor honest wouldnt stand a chance!! Go to thier webpage and read wat they wan...u will feel it. That's y we must know where is our aim in life, and what company is suitable and not suitable. If u have good honest degree/ master /phd...no doubt company like BMW, MERC, FERARRI would hire u man to design thier car...like one of my fren. I ADMIT that he is indeed brilliant and capable. Earning about USD S$200K a year in german is wat he deserve. Am i going to compare wif him or am i going to try my best...u think for urself. And pls do not state such statment like a diploma holder have better creativity and synergy than degree...again..it is not the CERT, but personality. Come on...how many degree holders are working for NASA....dun they have any creative and innovative mind??
Furthering your education is another topic. Its good to further your education to gain in-depth knowledge to help you understand better in your career. I dun believe in furthering your education for the sake of getting the 'paper' only. In the end, its still your capability/character/interest/accumulated skills and knowledge that will let you advance in your career.
Given a choice as a non-degree holders, I wouldn't establish my career in a MNC. MNC judge your capability by your paper qualification. This is having great impact not only to the dip/ITE, even some degree holders felt demoralised/stagnant by it.
You mentioned about a fren of yours who is "indeed brilliant and capable" and is "Earning about USD S$200K a year in german". Great, I am glad that there are talented Singaporean. Note that my opinion is based on general/average ppl and jobs that can be done by both dip/deg holders. Dun take the cream of the lot to compare. -
First of all...which sentence did i compare a diploma wif a master or phdOriginally posted by thinker:I wouldn't refuse your opinion if u insist on your great paper qualification. Take note that what I have stated refers to job that can be done by both dip/deg holders. Pls dun take master/PHD into it. That is another topic and it doesn't make sense to compare with them.
Furthering your education is another topic. Its good to further your education to gain in-depth knowledge to help you understand better in your career. I dun believe in furthering your education for the sake of getting the 'paper' only. In the end, its still your capability/character/interest/accumulated skills and knowledge that will let you advance in your career.
Given a choice as a non-degree holders, I wouldn't establish my career in a MNC. MNC judge your capability by your paper qualification. This is having great impact not only to the dip/ITE, even some degree holders felt demoralised/stagnant by it.
You mentioned about a fren of yours who is "indeed brilliant and capable" and is "Earning about USD S$200K a year in german". Great, I am glad that there are talented Singaporean. Note that my opinion is based on general/average ppl and jobs that can be done by both dip/deg holders. Dun take the cream of the lot to compare.
. I just made a statement, not a topic; that a degree is a foundation for education to proceed to master and phd. Pls read properly. I didnt go further to elaborate on it AND the MAIN, MAIN reason i wrote that reply was the statement u made; ur scorning statement that companies prefer to hire diploma than degree holders becoz they are more creative and synergy 
. Previously i did mention something about my fren, u said i shdnt compare wif the cream. But do u know what u wrote in ur statment?? Ur statement seems to over shadow the "cream" too!! Diploma are more creative and synergy than degree holders!!, so does that mean the whole flock of them? some? mostly? majority? , therefore i assume wat u said was the whole flock of them, am i right? The grass is green. By this statement, all grass shd be green right?? Know my topic sentence, and read my conlcusion. I just want u to realize what u state was extremely wrong. In which statement i mention that CERT is the only important yard stick? i didnt, i still state that personality of an individual must be taken into account. Therefore for your statment " n the end, its still your capability/character/interest/accumulated skills and knowledge that will let you advance in your career" i agree wif u. I just disagree of wat u said previously. Dun misunderstood me. Spore economic had led us both, diploma and degree holders into a difficult situation... survival skill is therefore much needed. -
Just to be on the fair side... if I was an employer and with the same amount of money I can hire a diploma or degree holder to a simple job, I will go for the degree holder. Why ? Studying is like a race in a competitive environment as well. U need determination, preserverance, discipline, intellect, good command of language, dedication, positive attitute to achieve well. Diploma also meant studying well... but it is just tat getting a degree seems harder to achieve thus it speaks out more.
The paper do not say u will be better than a diploma holder but at least it shows u have some minimum competence in handling normal tasks. Tat is why in the beginning where no one has work experience, the paper u have is the only thing tat shows your competency in handling the job... When u have work experience then it will be a better guage of your ability. -
Hmmm.... maybe but the local company are doing that as well. Judge you by paper oso. Given a choice, go MNC, no paper but can perform, no worry. MNC will pay you accoordingly. Face it they dun have the family empire type kind of thing like the local coy, if you can not perform you go.Originally posted by thinker:I wouldn't refuse your opinion if u insist on your great paper qualification. Take note that what I have stated refers to job that can be done by both dip/deg holders. Pls dun take master/PHD into it. That is another topic and it doesn't make sense to compare with them.
Furthering your education is another topic. Its good to further your education to gain in-depth knowledge to help you understand better in your career. I dun believe in furthering your education for the sake of getting the 'paper' only. In the end, its still your capability/character/interest/accumulated skills and knowledge that will let you advance in your career.
Given a choice as a non-degree holders, I wouldn't establish my career in a MNC. MNC judge your capability by your paper qualification. This is having great impact not only to the dip/ITE, even some degree holders felt demoralised/stagnant by it.
You mentioned about a fren of yours who is "indeed brilliant and capable" and is "Earning about USD S$200K a year in german". Great, I am glad that there are talented Singaporean. Note that my opinion is based on general/average ppl and jobs that can be done by both dip/deg holders. Dun take the cream of the lot to compare. -
if u r the employer, then i guess u r not a very smart 1....u go for some1 who is able to perform the job not the cert....if u wanna tok about degree, every1 can easily go to any foreign ivy league uni to get a degree if thats wat u r looking for.....i've seen ppl who can't even get thru college....yet able to obtain a degree in a foreign u.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Just to be on the fair side... if I was an employer and with the same amount of money I can hire a diploma or degree holder to a simple job, I will go for the degree holder. Why ? Studying is like a race in a competitive environment as well. U need determination, preserverance, discipline, intellect, good command of language, dedication, positive attitute to achieve well. Diploma also meant studying well... but it is just tat getting a degree seems harder to achieve thus it speaks out more.
The paper do not say u will be better than a diploma holder but at least it shows u have some minimum competence in handling normal tasks. Tat is why in the beginning where no one has work experience, the paper u have is the only thing tat shows your competency in handling the job... When u have work experience then it will be a better guage of your ability. -
Hazi....... related field I got no say, how many are?Originally posted by stupidissmart:Just to be on the fair side... if I was an employer and with the same amount of money I can hire a diploma or degree holder to a simple job, I will go for the degree holder. Why ? Studying is like a race in a competitive environment as well. U need determination, preserverance, discipline, intellect, good command of language, dedication, positive attitute to achieve well. Diploma also meant studying well... but it is just tat getting a degree seems harder to achieve thus it speaks out more.
The paper do not say u will be better than a diploma holder but at least it shows u have some minimum competence in handling normal tasks. Tat is why in the beginning where no one has work experience, the paper u have is the only thing tat shows your competency in handling the job... When u have work experience then it will be a better guage of your ability.
problem with locals boss, keep on eat up own local ppl, market rate, market rate, no one work for him, where is the market? pay ppl accordingly mah. pay peanuts and you get Monkey. follow the garment pay high high,
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if u r the employer, then i guess u r not a very smart 1....u go for some1 who is able to perform the job not the cert....if u wanna tok about degree, every1 can easily go to any foreign ivy league uni to get a degree if thats wat u r looking for.....i've seen ppl who can't even get thru college....yet able to obtain a degree in a foreign u.
How do u know who is able to perform the job or not ? Is it written on their face ? When I talk about degree I mean reputable degree for reputable University lah... U can even buy degree from lousy university if u want... -
simple......u can roughly know the person thru interview or u can give him a simple characteristic test.Originally posted by stupidissmart:How do u know who is able to perform the job or not ? Is it written on their face ? When I talk about degree I mean reputable degree for reputable University lah... U can even buy degree from lousy university if u want...
deakin university is no doubt a very good uni....but its just easier to get thru compare to our local uni.....u can imagine a below average student getting a degree -
Hi to everyone
This topic seems to be sliding into an argument between degree and diploma holders. Actually the point is the comanies should stick to the appropriate people for appropriate jobs. If they continue doing things this way, it is very dangerous to EVERYONE in the long run. I am sure all of you have heard about degree and even mba owners sweeping floors and being salesmen and bookshop assistant in other countries rite? I sincerely do not wish to see that in Singapore. It would also mean that all the GCE O,A and ITE level people would then have to be reduced to virtual beggars. This is a very dangerous trend to continue with.
I also notice that someone stated that degree people shows that they are capable if they can get the paper. I agree with that to a certain extent. But the person has distorted my main point again. The statement I was trying to make is that not everyone can afford (like some people I used to know who drives parents car and have BIG amounts of pocket moeny) to study full time for a degree. I am sure that there are also many other in my position who was or is considering dropping the idea of getting a degree first to get a job to SURVIVE first. -
simple......u can roughly know the person thru interview or u can give him a simple characteristic test.
How useful is an interview ? People will be complaining tat it is unfair to people who tend to be nervous easily isn't it ? Can 10 minutes of interview know about a person well or know if he act well ? How accurate is a characteristic test ? Most people just give the answer which they expect to mean well rather than an honest reply.deakin university is no doubt a very good uni....but its just easier to get thru compare to our local uni.....u can imagine a below average student getting a degree
Actually I never heard of deakin university....
In singapore, unless u r really needy of money, u should be able to get into university if your grades make it. There are a lot of loans and bursaries around to tide the people through the time for studying. -
Reputable uni ...hmm...hope this webpage will help . This is just for the asia region... Hmm...spore not bad huh...shd be proud. But of coz in the world, MIT, Harvard, Cambridge rulez....
http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/features/universities2000/schools/multi.overall.html
Deakin University...i believe it is from aus izit... -
lets look at it in this perspective by placing a few assumptions.
1. all employers are looking for fresh grads (ite/poly/uni)
2.based on proportion, there are lesser people going to uni poly ite, in that order
3.Employers are maximising their hiring costs
4. when interviewing the prospective employee, there is nothing to diffeentiate except for their education qualification
So why wouldnt you hire a uni grad?
There are always exceptions and we should never use exceptions because they happen on a low frequency
MBAs cannot be compared to PHds
even so yo have to see what MBAs or PHDs is it confeered by and what discipline is it in.
To generalised, as long as you have money to pay for an MBA
because alot of them its dependent on working knowledge, and management/BA cannot be theorized nor quantified so its very grey plus offering MBA is good Money (The Economist 2004 June)
On another note.
Although i have yet to work, i do know that good work experience(or rather a good CV) helps, and doing well for the interview helps too. -
when you reach my age you will know academic paper is of no use when you got no much experience.Originally posted by Gregorsamsa:lets look at it in this perspective by placing a few assumptions.
1. all employers are looking for fresh grads (ite/poly/uni)
2.based on proportion, there are lesser people going to uni poly ite, in that order
3.Employers are maximising their hiring costs
4. when interviewing the prospective employee, there is nothing to diffeentiate except for their education qualification
So why wouldnt you hire a uni grad?
There are always exceptions and we should never use exceptions because they happen on a low frequency
MBAs cannot be compared to PHds
even so yo have to see what MBAs or PHDs is it confeered by and what discipline is it in.
To generalised, as long as you have money to pay for an MBA
because alot of them its dependent on working knowledge, and management/BA cannot be theorized nor quantified so its very grey plus offering MBA is good Money (The Economist 2004 June)
On another note.
Although i have yet to work, i do know that good work experience(or rather a good CV) helps, and doing well for the interview helps too. -
If you realise for a fact that both demand & supply is a paper chase oriented environment, you should think global my friend. Singapore is REALLY a small market. Go West, Go East young man...bite the bullet and stop trying so hard to be just a bolt or screw of the system.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Just to be on the fair side... if I was an employer and with the same amount of money I can hire a diploma or degree holder to a simple job, I will go for the degree holder. Why ? Studying is like a race in a competitive environment as well. U need determination, preserverance, discipline, intellect, good command of language, dedication, positive attitute to achieve well. Diploma also meant studying well... but it is just tat getting a degree seems harder to achieve thus it speaks out more.
The paper do not say u will be better than a diploma holder but at least it shows u have some minimum competence in handling normal tasks. Tat is why in the beginning where no one has work experience, the paper u have is the only thing tat shows your competency in handling the job... When u have work experience then it will be a better guage of your ability. -
My fellow sporeans, please go and read a new book called, MANAGERS, NOT MBAs.
It is about time this conventional rule is challenged and rendered irrelevant in todays economy.
I am a "Pass w/o merit" person. Today, I have a lot of MBAs working for me, and I can tell you they does not measure up to my expectations. Really Dok Si Pin. (Study Shit Piece).
Lots of so call strategist, but no one can implement. Everytime in the meeting I have to challenge them to put their money where their mouth is. Sad case. -
Originally posted by Gregorsamsa:
Yeah well. Their fresh grad is the type that want one to two years experience. Too bad I had to do the stupid NS. Or else I would gotten out two and a half years ealier when the economy was still slightly better. Those guys that time can get $1500. Me not only $1300 and if no experience sorry bye bye.
lets look at it in this perspective by placing a few assumptions.
1. [b]all employers are looking for fresh grads (ite/poly/uni)
2.based on proportion, there are lesser people going to uni poly ite, in that order
3.Employers are maximising their hiring costs
4. when interviewing the prospective employee, there is nothing to diffeentiate except for their education qualification
So why wouldnt you hire a uni grad?
There are always exceptions and we should never use exceptions because they happen on a low frequency
MBAs cannot be compared to PHds
even so yo have to see what MBAs or PHDs is it confeered by and what discipline is it in.
To generalised, as long as you have money to pay for an MBA
because alot of them its dependent on working knowledge, and management/BA cannot be theorized nor quantified so its very grey plus offering MBA is good Money (The Economist 2004 June)
On another note.
Although i have yet to work, i do know that good work experience(or rather a good CV) helps, and doing well for the interview helps too.
[/b] -
For the sake of discussion and the title, there is no point in bringing working exp into the picture. It is supposed to be a discussion on Diploma versus Degree, both of which should have the same amount of working exp. IMO working exp will be more important than the educational qualification one had, which is suppose to be for another discussion thread instead.
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After reading all the posts u guyz wrote, i feel my future gloomy.
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hmm so plan where to go now and not wait anymore.Originally posted by Ogbunwezeh:After reading all the posts u guyz wrote, i feel my future gloomy. -
I'm tired of people comparing their pay in this manner. Why don't you look at the economic environment before making blatant misinformed comparisons. I suggest you going overseas, getting those nonexisting high paying jobs. Fork out your taxes living expenses blah blah.. andyou'll end up pretty much around the same figure.Originally posted by Joshua1975:Degree oso got problem now, diploma holder i dun think will go for anything that is below 1.3k yah
Comon start low, get some experience and achievement and job hop. those so call coy will want ppl with experience and achievement and so the pay will go up somehow. dun worry abt job hopping, most are doing it now as there is no more job security today. as long as you know you can do it better than other you are in for the new ball game today. and take some 'professional', say again professional and not 'academic' course.
Just too bad you like many other have fall into a fail education system so now the oni thing is to follow all the way but change you view point and nothing else.
Lucky I am not in the 'system' I give it up after my 'N' level, no ITE nothing else but some pro course, thanks whoever is up there. getting more than most degree not to say diploma and as years goes by it will still keep going up as I keep on hopping till i reach the top/max ceilling.(ceiling as in world market and not singapore market.)example of world and singapore market in my field.
World is paying US 96k to US 124k annually where else in Singapore I am just being pay US 17k to abt US 23k.
Again we were told we are highly paid?
Thing to think abt is next time you kids how? Is he going into the same saystem again.
Look, when i used to waitress in Delifrance back in my JC days, i was paid $3.50/hr. The minimum wage i would get here is $10/hr cash in hand (ie no tax declarations, read dodgy). You catch my drift. -
Totally agree, i did some interviews with 2nd generation chinese immigrants in UK, all prefer to work in restaurants even though have Hons degree from British U, etc.
After work, they drive their BMW M3s and visit casinos and whatever high life there is.
We got to think out of OUR context for awhile, not a lot of people out there pay much attention or emphasis to academic qualifications like us. Again, small islander mentality.