Furore over LHL's trip to Taiwan.
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i hate both of them , but at least i'll feel safe about eating in the states , the reports of food poisoning coming from china are frighteningOriginally posted by Blueray:I have met a lot of Taiwanese in China. They don't see China as just a land of monetary opportunities. To them China is just like their home.
You said u dislike China bcos she is arrogant and without a heart. Don't u realise that America's human rights record is one of the worst in the world? At least that's how I think. Why do u think the US is hated by so many in the world? Pls take a look at this websities to see what i am talking about:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4078.htm
http://www.totse.com/en/politics/central_intelligence_agency/166983.html
as for china herself, i find it hard to believe that there are idiots who would believe china would be a friend to the rest of the world, going by her history, had china in her prime ever sought to be a friend of anyone whom she can keep as a vassal? -
Finally..someone who sees the light.
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How do u find that china can not be a frinend to the rest of the world? going by china history? Do u know history? do u know china history?Originally posted by oldbreadstinks:as for china herself, i find it hard to believe that there are idiots who would believe china would be a friend to the rest of the world, going by her history, had china in her prime ever sought to be a friend of anyone whom she can keep as a vassal?
Bad china in her prime??? how bad china is? China want to keep which country as a vassal? I want to hear your explaination!
Finally, If a country with full of naive young generation like you, there will be no future for this country. Feel shame on you! -
if by making noise here makes u all feel good then go ahead... all i know is they win elections hands down...
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Go and read Gavin Menzies' 1421.Read up on how the Ming Dynasty sought to pursue a vassal-state policy with every state outside of their borders.Tributes and obeisance were the hallmarks and somewhere embedded within the Chinese psyche today still lies dormant.The Qing empire refused to acknowledge that there were other powers equal to her strength, and the very act of making Lord MacCarthy kneel to the Emperor is a symbol of that insular thinking which precipitated their downfall.One thing about Chinese, we are very proud when we are rich.That is the sad reality of the majority of Chinese around the world, especially in China today.The people there are so infatuated with the gold rush that they will pursue unscrupulous means to get rich.Things have not changed and they might not change still.Originally posted by zjw007:How do u find that china can not be a frinend to the rest of the world? going by china history? Do u know history? do u know china history?
Bad china in her prime??? how bad china is? China want to keep which country as a vassal? I want to hear your explaination!
Finally, If a country with full of naive young generation like you, there will be no future for this country. Feel shame on you!
Calling us naive eh, justify yourself instead of using one-liners which only comfort your weak arguments and your irate mind.If you know the history of China, feel free to tell us.We won't bite ya
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Originally posted by LazerLordz:
You will not know real china and its history by just reading a article written by west. Go to china to take a look and you will know whether u r naive or not. I am sorry to say there are too many frogs in the well like you in singapore!
Go and read Gavin Menzies' [b]1421.Read up on how the Ming Dynasty sought to pursue a vassal-state policy with every state outside of their borders.Tributes and obeisance were the hallmarks and somewhere embedded within the Chinese psyche today still lies dormant.The Qing empire refused to acknowledge that there were other powers equal to her strength, and the very act of making Lord MacCarthy kneel to the Emperor is a symbol of that insular thinking which precipitated their downfall.One thing about Chinese, we are very proud when we are rich.That is the sad reality of the majority of Chinese around the world, especially in China today.The people there are so infatuated with the gold rush that they will pursue unscrupulous means to get rich.Things have not changed and they might not change still.
Calling us naive eh, justify yourself instead of using one-liners which only comfort your weak arguments and your irate mind.If you know the history of China, feel free to tell us.We won't bite ya [/b][/b] -
quote:
"and the very act of making Lord MacCarthy kneel to the Emperor is a symbol of that insular thinking which precipitated their downfall"
this is debateable because i feel that it is the epitome of how the West fails to sensitize to the culture of the Chinese. There had to be a compromise, but don't you think it is because the White man feels that he is superior to other races, which is why he didnt kneel?
The downfall of China is undoubtedly partly due to Insular thinking, as well as, foreign transgression. In short, From the 1800's, China's power waned, and the country was being misgoverned. Opium was brought in by the British to reduce trade deficit, and when Lu Xun tried to stop it through ban or by burning, the british assualted canton. Eventually, various islands like hong kong were ceded. if you read chinese history, you'll find that only recently, from the 1921, was china ruled by the chinese and without any of its territory seized.
To answer the topic objectively, i feel that we are just plain unlucky to be utilized in a propaganda war. There is no doubt that the "unofficial official" was delibrately blown out of proportion by the Taiwanese Media becuase it desperately needs diplomatic recognition.
Already there are many states switching sides to China and taiwan is launching a counter by promising small pacific island states economic aid if they recognise Taiwan. China on the other hand denounces those who recognise Taiwan.
Even if majority of taiwanese favour reunification, Do yo think Taiwanese politicians would accede to a request. If they do unify,. they would be lesser officals.
in conclusion, lets just wait for things to unfurl. And yes i think sometimes we should read up before commenting. Because jumping into conclusion aint good.
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so tell me what can i learn from my china trip if i do visit there?Originally posted by zjw007:You will not know real china and its history by just reading a article written by west. Go to china to take a look and you will know whether u r naive or not. I am sorry to say there are too many frogs in the well like you in singapore! -
I think the excuse "private and unofficial" visit is just an excuse, which is being misread by the chinese government and everybody else. But obviously the taiwanese played it big to their advantage by giving a lavish welcome and a splash on their media.Originally posted by the Bear:goodness... his excuse?
private and unofficial visit...
fricken idiot...
this brainiac is going to be our PM...
i fear for our country
I believe the real reason was to go there to clarify and read into the real position of the taiwanese leadership position on the island's independance.
I do recall early this year or last year it was reported in straits times that singapore had asked China to give us 2 weeks advance notice prior to imminent war so we can pull out our troops training there, I believe China didn't reply.
This time round the ruckus was started up by the taiwanese side, naturally we cannot go ask the Chinese again if conflict is imminent but have to ask the taiwanese instead. -
I feel sad on your generalized statement of forgs in Singapore. I travelled for the past 10 years to China; Huadong, Huabei, Dongbei, Zhongnan, Xinan, Xibei, not only once but > 20 times per year. Do you similarly want others to quote the dark side stories and justify the "frog" in your own world ? Spare a thought and it is sometimes wiser to exercise the art of listening than flaming.Originally posted by zjw007:You will not know real china and its history by just reading a article written by west. Go to china to take a look and you will know whether u r naive or not. I am sorry to say there are too many frogs in the well like you in singapore! -
Cheats exist everywhere in the world. It is just that in rich and poor countries the way of cheating is different. Think about it this way. Even in the world's richest country the USA, there are many coporations with a long history such as Enron, Worldcom etc that will purposely falsify their accounts in order to cheat prospective investors. So much so that many old retirees who invested money inside those companies are forced to come out of retirement to work again. The stituation is quite serious... Like I said before I have lived in china for a few years and those years I have been eating foods from China but nothing has happened to me, i am still alive and talking to u right? Honestly the situation of 'fake foods' is nowhere as serious as the local media potrays.Originally posted by oldbreadstinks:i hate both of them , but at least i'll feel safe about eating in the states , the reports of food poisoning coming from china are frightening
as for china herself, i find it hard to believe that there are idiots who would believe china would be a friend to the rest of the world, going by her history, had china in her prime ever sought to be a friend of anyone whom she can keep as a vassal?
One last point, the US president George Bush. He lied about WMDs in Iraq and fooled the rest of the world to think likewise. His invasion of Iraq has led to the deaths of many Iraqi civilians and american soldiers and yet the whole world just remains diam diam..... If this can be tolerated, what else cannot be tolerated? -
Originally posted by LazerLordz:
If u have studied European, Chinese and American history. You will find out that although China has a longer history than any other western country, China did not terrorise other countries as bad as the western countries did, right? The british colonised malaysia and plundered its resources, has the ming dynasty done any of those things?
Go and read Gavin Menzies' [b]1421.Read up on how the Ming Dynasty sought to pursue a vassal-state policy with every state outside of their borders.Tributes and obeisance were the hallmarks and somewhere embedded within the Chinese psyche today still lies dormant.The Qing empire refused to acknowledge that there were other powers equal to her strength, and the very act of making Lord MacCarthy kneel to the Emperor is a symbol of that insular thinking which precipitated their downfall.One thing about Chinese, we are very proud when we are rich.That is the sad reality of the majority of Chinese around the world, especially in China today.The people there are so infatuated with the gold rush that they will pursue unscrupulous means to get rich.Things have not changed and they might not change still.
Calling us naive eh, justify yourself instead of using one-liners which only comfort your weak arguments and your irate mind.If you know the history of China, feel free to tell us.We won't bite ya [/b][/b]
Look at the last 30 years, which country has invaded more nations? US or China. -
Something can reduce ur bias on china!Originally posted by oldbreadstinks:so tell me what can i learn from my china trip if i do visit there? -
Why do you keep harping on the bad record of the US as a basis to support China.Your line of reasoning is getting way out.I'm focusing on the flaws of China and you insist on taking the harm that America has committed to rebut my arguments.Where is the brilliance in that?So what if China has a longer history of civilisation, does it mean that it's people are more civilised in our context today?If you have your views on the American government(let's make this distinction clear) today, which I agree is one hegemonistic entity, by all means,no one is going to condemn you for it.But if you want to persuade me to look at your views on China, you gotta give out examples which can demolish my stand, instead of hiding behind a smokescreen.Shesh, what is the value of a debate today man..Originally posted by Blueray:If u have studied European, Chinese and American history. You will find out that although China has a longer history than any other western country, China did not terrorise other countries as bad as the western countries did, right? The british colonised malaysia and plundered its resources, has the ming dynasty done any of those things?
Look at the last 30 years, which country has invaded more nations? US or China. -
Duh... LHL brought defence minister with him. We got to remember that we still have our defence forces training over there too.Originally posted by Aulf:The question is why he go stir up hornets nest ? Why fix sth dats not broken ?
He muz rem that he is representating the country by virtue of his position and who he is ... somemore didn't go alone, go with minister and can somemore say personal/private visit .... KNN !
Such sovereignty issues are very delicate .. dunno whether got consult MFA before he made the decision to go ...
Because Singapore knew that China is going to react extremely strongly (Chinese people and China always want "face" one) if he put his visit as "official". He'll rather make it private.
China's reaction is just a matter of "face". It can't stand a small friend visiting its foe.
We have to remember that diplomatic issues as delicate as this isn't easy.
I'm very sure he calculated the "risks" involve.
I even got LHL's sentiments exactly now that he made an official statement. -
I am just trying to tell u that in the real world, there is no such thing as a civilised world. We live in a world in which every man, country( whether it's US or China) will work in their own interests. Sorry if I am wrong but you seem to give me the impression you are prejudiced against China and always tend to pick on that country.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Why do you keep harping on the bad record of the US as a basis to support China.Your line of reasoning is getting way out.I'm focusing on the flaws of China and you insist on taking the harm that America has committed to rebut my arguments.Where is the brilliance in that?So what if China has a longer history of civilisation, does it mean that it's people are more civilised in our context today?If you have your views on the American government(let's make this distinction clear) today, which I agree is one hegemonistic entity, by all means,no one is going to condemn you for it.But if you want to persuade me to look at your views on China, you gotta give out examples which can demolish my stand, instead of hiding behind a smokescreen.Shesh, what is the value of a debate today man..
Besides I have already told u examples like Taiwanese and Singaporeans emigrating and retiring in China. If china is so bad like u said, why would people be moving there in the first place? I have lived in China for a few years and I can tell u that that country is definitely not like what our media potrays. -
I am just trying to tell u that in the real world, there is no such thing as a civilised world. We live in a world in which every man, country( whether it's US or China) will work in their own interests. Sorry if I am wrong but you seem to give me the impression you are prejudiced against China and always tend to pick on that country.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Why do you keep harping on the bad record of the US as a basis to support China.Your line of reasoning is getting way out.I'm focusing on the flaws of China and you insist on taking the harm that America has committed to rebut my arguments.Where is the brilliance in that?So what if China has a longer history of civilisation, does it mean that it's people are more civilised in our context today?If you have your views on the American government(let's make this distinction clear) today, which I agree is one hegemonistic entity, by all means,no one is going to condemn you for it.But if you want to persuade me to look at your views on China, you gotta give out examples which can demolish my stand, instead of hiding behind a smokescreen.Shesh, what is the value of a debate today man..
Besides I have already told u examples like Taiwanese and Singaporeans emigrating and retiring in China. If china is so bad like u said, why would people be moving there in the first place? I have lived in China for a few years and I can tell u that that country is definitely not like what our media potrays. -
Explain what do you mean by "our context"? Remember there is no absolute in this world, everything is relative and old conventional wisdom can be made irrelevant by changes across time.Originally posted by LazerLordz:...does it mean that it's people are more civilised in our context today?.. -
not possible, since i do not think i'm bias towards china, i have chinese friendsOriginally posted by zjw007:Something can reduce ur bias on china!
friends whom i treasure more then most of my sg ones, but what i stated is a fact, no country would choose to be a vassal instead of an overlord
only naive idiots would think of china as a friend, being one of the strongest nations in the world , china would be a "friend" only so long as her wishes get carried out, the same goes for all countries , not just china
but it seems that we have some pro-china people here who are pissed when unfavourable comments are made about china in a thread about china and have to drag other countries in to prove china's good points -
Read up on how the Ming Dynasty sought to pursue a vassal-state policy with every state outside of their borders.Tributes and obeisance were the hallmarks and somewhere embedded within the Chinese psyche today still lies dormant.
If i recall my Chinese history right, the Ming dynasty sent out an armada of ships that was vastly more powerful than any fleets at that point of time in history, they were the most powerful and advanced civilization during that time. But unlike the Westerners and their gunboat diplomacy, the armada did not raze cities and demanded their people to submit to their rule like the old Roman Empire.
In fact, their intention was only to open trade routes and offered advanced science, Confucism as well as better strains of grains that was to be given freely. Yes, they wanted tributes and obesiance from the countries they visited, but they did not sought to rule them only wanting them to concede that China then to be the most powerful country in the world. At that point of time, it's not an unreasonable view to take.
All in all, they were much more benevolent and respectful with their armies than the West did. So the Ming Dynasty is not exactly the best example to use. -
okay... now Lau Lee's son is saying that PRC was "informed" and when PRC asked him not to go, he said that he must not back down as singapore is a sovereign country and all that....
so.. why the hell was MFA saying that he was there as a personal thing?
he wants to "update himself"...
what's going on? -
Well, you're right.The Ming fleets are exemplary in nature.But why is the government of PRC today acting like an overlord to countries who have "relations" with Taiwan.That is the cruz of the issue here, don't you find their tone used quite condescending?Regardless of how China might have suffered at the hands of the West in the 19th century, that is no way to progress.Right?Originally posted by Stevenson101:If i recall my Chinese history right, the Ming dynasty sent out an armada of ships that was vastly more powerful than any fleets at that point of time in history, they were the most powerful and advanced civilization during that time. But unlike the Westerners and their gunboat diplomacy, the armada did not raze cities and demanded their people to submit to their rule like the old Roman Empire.
In fact, their intention was only to open trade routes and offered advanced science, Confucism as well as better strains of grains that was to be given freely. Yes, they wanted tributes and obesiance from the countries they visited, but they did not sought to rule them only wanting them to concede that China then to be the most powerful country in the world. At that point of time, it's not an unreasonable view to take.
All in all, they were much more benevolent and respectful with their armies than the West did. So the Ming Dynasty is not exactly the best example to use. -
i think its because the Ming Empire was some time before the Current Party system.
Well china is just trying to make sure people keep off its backyard. for many years China was a weak and decadent empire ruled by foreigners. Now its is rich and one party ruled. So things are different.
As you know, China has been sending strong statements to people who visit Taiwan in an official position, so the current thing is it is Us (DPM LEE) visiting them.
the thing wil blow over, furthermore, its inevitable that we have to visit there cause we have interests there.
The only thing that irates me is PRC citizenship staying here on SG govt money who bitch about our country. -
Perhaps it's the way they behave at times as if we owe them a lost 150 years of prosperity and what not.
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On lhl's visit - Singapore has miscalculated China's reaction. China has overeacted to the extent of bullying singapore.
This is the New Chinese mentality. "WE are BIG and You are small". We you tell the Chinese that you are Singaporean, they say that it is a well managed "small" country. They think they have arrived and all countries should KOWTOW to them as in the olden days where coultries make pilgrimages to the Chinese emperor. Singaporean businessman going to China has been and will continued to be screwd by them. The only country that the Chinese are afraid of is the Americans. But not for long. Wait till they get all the american investment into China then they will squeeze their Balls like they did to the Taiwanese. Singapore leaders should realise this. Look at Suzhou. Don't think you are Singapore chinese that they consider you as family. they will sell you out for the sake of money and power.