What So Big Deal About China
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Are you kidding now? I dont ask you where you got the news, just ask you how you can think the chinese missiles threaten Singapore? Do you really think there is another Kuwait or Israel in Asia? Do you really think any other country in Asia has an ambition to Singapore? If you talk about threat, then there is a Chinese saying: there is no unreasonable LOVE in the world, and there is no unreasonable HATE in the world too! Before you suspect others, you should look at yourself first, what you have done to others! Actually, Singapore should feel lucky to stay in Asia and lucky to have a friend like China!
You talked about missiles pointing at taiwan. OK, let me give you a lesson. Do you really think those missiles will fall on the island? Do you really think it is valuable for China to use thoes valuable missials to just destroy a few stone buildings? Use your brain! If there is no warship from the famous country in the channel in 1950s, how can the tanwan crisis happen now? A war comes to true only because another military force interferes and supports taiwan independence. Remember, did they cross over 38?
You talked about chinese killing in the civil war. You should learn more about history, not only chinese, but also world and yourself's. Then you will know who was keeping to carry weapons to china battle field to kill another part chinese. Did chinese send a single bullet to Washington general? Do you dare to say that nobody was killed when Singapore set up? then where did those reactionaries go? evaporated?
It is not strange to your cold-war-thinking. However, look at practice, you cannot find another country like China to keep peace in Asia. But, we know that famous country has brought two wars to Asia, and both failed. Now Asia is growing in all aspects, so the third war seems to be closer and closer. Who will benefit from the war? Use your brain, not vainly hope only!
Once again, Before you suspect others, you should look at yourself first, what you have done to others! Singapore should feel lucky to stay in Asia and lucky to have a friend like China! At least, this friend has tried her best and hurt herself deeply to help Asia to overcome economy crisis in 1997-1998!
Did you live in Mars at that time?
If you still use cold-war-thinking to look at China, then what I can only say is: an idiot cannot be educated. Hope you are not like that.Originally posted by SibeiSuayKia:China stir hoo haa? you know what they are going to do now??
they are going to sell SHORT RANGE missiles to m'sia
and threaten singapore's security now.
SEE what is happening ? Chinese Chinese? they won't hesitate to use the missiles on Taiwanese and on singaporeans , by letting our potential adversaries use it..
LOL , if we lose some economic opportunities overseas never mind,cause wun affect much stuffs locally..
But if it threatens our national security it is certainly a cause for alarm...especially if the short range missiles which they are going to sell to m'sia is those which are pointing at taiwan..haiz
Who is petty now? lol...see for urself ba...
THIS is a major cause of of concern now!
This is definitely going to be very heat up ! IMAGINE missiles which they are pointing at taiwan are now going to be pointed at us..in the future.
Please lor chinese chinese...just think CN's civil wars so many chinese kill chinese u think they give a damn? LOL.
I believe those missiles are from those russian tech and if our potential adversaries fire it on us..there will not be any time to react or whatever..
unlike Taiwan who got AEGIS and ARROW and some time to react..we got none..and when the missile is fired...u will know that lives will be lost.
Must protest against the sales!
Cause its a new form of introduction of new weapons in SEA!
LoL anyway 7 trillion in debt is indeed very huge. But anyway they are prepared for a super scale conflict.
Anyway , i just wanna tell u all something , i studied history and cold war..
NATO and USA have a agreement in which 1 of their main duties is to prevent countries from being swallowed by communism.(as long as NATO exists)
They dared to intervene against Soviet union and China together..(previously
at afghanistan, at taiwan, at korea, at vietnam , and give out plenty of monetary aid..what makes you think that US won't intervene?
If US don't intervene, that will be the day whereby freedom dies..
Why? Cause pple in tW don't have the right to choose whether they wanna be with CHINA/STATUS QUO
PLEASE lor..if u say that USA is under local debt of 7 trillion
den lemme tell u something , about 5 years before WW II , they were also in debt and thats the Great Depression , in which their economy is experiencing
trouble and guess what saved the Economy ? WAR. if u want me to explain about it can.. i can go on for ages.
Anyway if china+russia and taiwan and jap and sg and blah blah blah
go challenge US + Nato , the latter will win. Why?
US believes in a policy of overwhelming , and im not following against the side of biased against who ever or whatever..
Anyway China is not really as tough as SU during the peak of the cold war..
cause Russia at that time already has conducted tons and tons of space launch and spy satellites..lol...and developed tit for tat counters for every plane made..like MIG-21,MIG-23,MIG-25,MIG-27,MIG-29,MIG-31,SU-27,SU-24,
SU-30,SU-33 and those T-60 , T-91 and blah blah ,HIND and don't forget Kiev and Typhoon class subs..i can go on for ages
China got some jets some J-6 sheng yang, F-7 and J-10
just look at the variety of planes which could be manufactured by SU..
Do you know how much resources has to be dedicated any how much production has to be achieved in order to get something called "RESULT"?
The famous RPG-7 and AK-47 is oso invented by them..
USA and SU that time is very very comparable in terms of military size..
if compare the time between 1st space manned craft and CN's 1st manned craft its about 40+ years..LOL
anyway CN is still using cold war technology..which is the decomissioned stuff, enuf said. ECONOMICALLY i admit they are like a roaring dragon ,within 10 to 20 years, NGF will appear and those aircraft like SU-30 and SU-33 will be obsolete..and btw there' isn't a aircraft to rival on F-22 and YF-35 , aiyah i just wanna know the results of a dogfight between J-10 and YF-35 and see the results..
Anyway You need NEXT Generation Craft to fight in a enviroment right?
Say that China's NGF is equivalent to the F-16 C/D , and that means to draw with the F-22 they must make NNGF to challenge.. and to Win they need NNNGF , Next next next generation fighter which will take many years
Still though 3 million cannot be underestimated , but the quality and morale of the troops must be there , ground forces should be reduced , cause no adversary will ever land in Chinese soil !! a very big risk , naval forces should quadruple in size and the if possible Europe should have more military contact with CN , the reason why pple rather choose MIG cause they have been tested in various wars.. and some conflicts =/ ...anyway overall MIGS vs US-made jets , i believe overall MIGs get downed more..wonder why? I rather take a battle proven's country jets to the test or French Rafale , thank you , at least i know about the specifications and the arnaments ..rather den a country whose jets are not really tested and technology based on a previous superpower =) -
The way u argue is like SAF has no duty to be here in the 1st place.Originally posted by Roquet:Are you kidding now? I dont ask you where you got the news, just ask you how you can think the chinese missiles threaten Singapore? Do you really think there is another Kuwait or Israel in Asia? Do you really think any other country in Asia has an ambition to Singapore? If you talk about threat, then there is a Chinese saying: there is no unreasonable LOVE in the world, and there is no unreasonable HATE in the world too! Before you suspect others, you should look at yourself first, what you have done to others! Actually, Singapore should feel lucky to stay in Asia and lucky to have a friend like China!
You talked about missiles pointing at taiwan. OK, let me give you a lesson. Do you really think those missiles will fall on the island? Do you really think it is valuable for China to use thoes valuable missials to just destroy a few stone buildings? Use your brain! If there is no warship from the famous country in the channel in 1950s, how can the tanwan crisis happen now? A war comes to true only because another military force interferes and supports taiwan independence. Remember, did they cross over 38?
You talked about chinese killing in the civil war. You should learn more about history, not only chinese, but also world and yourself's. Then you will know who was keeping to carry weapons to china battle field to kill another part chinese. Did chinese send a single bullet to Washington general? Do you dare to say that nobody was killed when Singapore set up? then where did those reactionaries go? evaporated?
It is not strange to your cold-war-thinking. However, look at practice, you cannot find another country like China to keep peace in Asia. But, we know that famous country has brought two wars to Asia, and both failed. Now Asia is growing in all aspects, so the third war seems to be closer and closer. Who will benefit from the war? Use your brain!
Once again, Before you suspect others, you should look at yourself first, what you have done to others! Singapore should feel lucky to stay in Asia and lucky to have a friend like China! At least, this friend has tried her best and hurt herself deeply to help Asia to overcome economy crisis in 1997-1998!
Did you live in Mars at that time?
If you still use cold-war-thinking to look at China, then what I can only say is: an idiot cannot be educated. Hope you are not like that.
why so many arms in the 1st place? -
do you have any other excuse to reply my post?Originally posted by SibeiSuayKia:The way u argue is like SAF has no duty to be here in the 1st place.
why so many arms in the 1st place? -
may i ask u a question? how china had hurt so badly in the economy crisis by helping Asia? give more detail pls?Originally posted by Roquet:Are you kidding now? I dont ask you where you got the news, just ask you how you can think the chinese missiles threaten Singapore? Do you really think there is another Kuwait or Israel in Asia? Do you really think any other country in Asia has an ambition to Singapore? If you talk about threat, then there is a Chinese saying: there is no unreasonable LOVE in the world, and there is no unreasonable HATE in the world too! Before you suspect others, you should look at yourself first, what you have done to others! Actually, Singapore should feel lucky to stay in Asia and lucky to have a friend like China!
You talked about missiles pointing at taiwan. OK, let me give you a lesson. Do you really think those missiles will fall on the island? Do you really think it is valuable for China to use thoes valuable missials to just destroy a few stone buildings? Use your brain! If there is no warship from the famous country in the channel in 1950s, how can the tanwan crisis happen now? A war comes to true only because another military force interferes and supports taiwan independence. Remember, did they cross over 38?
You talked about chinese killing in the civil war. You should learn more about history, not only chinese, but also world and yourself's. Then you will know who was keeping to carry weapons to china battle field to kill another part chinese. Did chinese send a single bullet to Washington general? Do you dare to say that nobody was killed when Singapore set up? then where did those reactionaries go? evaporated?
It is not strange to your cold-war-thinking. However, look at practice, you cannot find another country like China to keep peace in Asia. But, we know that famous country has brought two wars to Asia, and both failed. Now Asia is growing in all aspects, so the third war seems to be closer and closer. Who will benefit from the war? Use your brain!
Once again, Before you suspect others, you should look at yourself first, what you have done to others! Singapore should feel lucky to stay in Asia and lucky to have a friend like China! At least, this friend has tried her best and hurt herself deeply to help Asia to overcome economy crisis in 1997-1998!
Did you live in Mars at that time?
If you still use cold-war-thinking to look at China, then what I can only say is: an idiot cannot be educated. Hope you are not like that.
economy growth drop?
for what i know, china only stable the RMB..what hurt so bad?(pls correct me if im wrong)
i do agree china had help Asia,but China main is to help HK,dont forget 1997 HK just return to china..they must defend HK economy.
yes,as chinese.it hurt to learn china been bully by other from 100yr back.
i do feel lucky ..for US supporting singapore in Trade and military.
i do feel lucky for england for helping us for water and indepandent.
i do feel lucky for Israel for help us to build our army.
i really think china is a peaceful friend..really .
but no few missiles aim at taiwan? it 400 missiles leh..
just think you are taiwanese? how you feel?
pls dont only look from china view .
and don't forget the SARS yet...have china aid singapore? taiwan?
ya...he have aid HK,and dont even have any word of apologise
from SARS.
so what when chairman HU want to donate $ to asia to fight against SARS?
japan also aid many $$$ to china,but they still own china an apologise. -
First of all, I'm a citizen of PRC, and proud to be one.
Singapore, or for that matter, any other country has their rights to do what's in their best interest. BUT, DON"T STEP ON OTHERS TOES, or you're gonna have a foot in your ass.
I don't care if your Prince Lee's visit to our Taiwan province is official or unofficial. He made a carefully calculated political maneuver. And it backfired. So now you, as a country, will have to face the consequences. Don't like it?? Tell your Emperor Lee or Prince Lee to stop stick their noses in other people's business, or do you have any guts to say anything?
I'm a firm believer of asymmetric responses : be nice to me once, I'll be nice to you ten times; betray me once, I'll make sure you won't dare to do it again for the rest of your farting natural life.
Decision is yours, be wise. -
you are a real man!!!Originally posted by go_china:First of all, I'm a citizen of PRC, and proud to be one.
Singapore, or for that matter, any other country has their rights to do what's in their best interest. BUT, DON"T STEP ON OTHERS TOES, or you're gonna have a foot in your ass.
I don't care if your Prince Lee's visit to our Taiwan province is official or unofficial. He made a carefully calculated political maneuver. And it backfired. So now you, as a country, will have to face the consequences. Don't like it?? Tell your Emperor Lee or Prince Lee to stop stick their noses in other people's business, or do you have any guts to say anything?
I'm a firm believer of asymmetric responses : be nice to me once, I'll be nice to you ten times; betray me once, I'll make sure you won't dare to do it again for the rest of your farting natural life.
Decision is yours, be wise.
totally support!!! -
Do not degrade to personal insults or whatever. I do not give a damn how much you hate each other. But if any of you try to flood my forums, I will not let you all off. This is my first and last warning to all of you. Keep all relavent discussions in this thread only.
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First, I need to clarify I am not an anti-PRC person.
About the case of LHL going to taiwan, I believe tat china has gone a step too far. We still have dealings with Taiwan, like training soldiers, whether u like it or not. It is natural tat minister go over to iron out and dicsuss issues about it. Do u think we should send just any general to talk about tis important issue ? We know your stand on one-china policy, but isn't tat affirm during the visit ? Just because we r a small country or we r continuosly seeking friendship with china do tat mean we have to obey their orders.
It is like I am a good friend of named China and a friend named Taiwan. When both of them have an argument, it is not really my business. But why should China be angry with me when I talk with Taiwan. Is it the case of when China quarrels with anyone, then all his friends have to severed their relationship with tat person ? I want to talk with Taiwan and he wants to talk with me, why does it have anything to do with China ?
Although we r a small country, we do have pride too. Just because we r small, doesn't means we have to be bullied by bigger countries. Even when US intervenes in the case of Micheal Fay, he still have to be caned. We r a sovereign country, not a puppet state.
I hope arguments should be more on logical basis instead of emotional. It just makes u look dumb and cause more misunderstanding. -
To go_china,
Singapore is also a firm believer in returning kindness. Taiwan, or the ROC, has been supporting Singapore since our independence. Eygpt and India rejected our call to help set up SAF, it was the Isrealis who helped us set up the Army and Taiwan who provided the training ground. China was then going thru yr cultural revolution, killing yr own people and set Chinese civilisation back at least 20 yrs!! This is just one example.
When yr Teng Xiao Peng came to power and opened up China, who invested all the money into China to help China jump start yr economy? Taiwanese and all other overseas Chinese!! not the American or you did it yourself!! How are you returning such kindness?
Politically, Singapore recognised one China. We changed from recognising ROC to PRC. It remains our hope that Taiwan is united with China in a peaceful manner. Teng Xiao Peng and Lee Peng knew it, they understood and accepted the fact that Singapore cannot abandon Taiwan total just like that. They certainly have the big heart of big leaders. Now China is bigger economically, but do you have the big heart?? yr action shows.
Singaporeans go to poll once every 4 yrs, to elect our leaders. We have the right to vote! Chinese in China have no right to vote so you have a long long way to go before you can call our leader emperor or prince!!
So read yr history, know yourself, and speak wisely. Let others respect you for yr wisdom, kindness and generosity!! don let them fear you just because you are big.
Have a good day. -
and thank china to let singaporean face the same missiles as taiwanese... thank for the early national day present.Originally posted by sgdiehard:To go_china,
Singapore is also a firm believer in returning kindness. Taiwan, or the ROC, has been supporting Singapore since our independence. Eygpt and India rejected our call to help set up SAF, it was the Isrealis who helped us set up the Army and Taiwan who provided the training ground. China was then going thru yr cultural revolution, killing yr own people and set Chinese civilisation back at least 20 yrs!! This is just one example.
When yr Teng Xiao Peng came to power and opened up China, who invested all the money into China to help China jump start yr economy? Taiwanese and all other overseas Chinese!! not the American or you did it yourself!! How are you returning such kindness?
Politically, Singapore recognised one China. We changed from recognising ROC to PRC. It remains our hope that Taiwan is united with China in a peaceful manner. Teng Xiao Peng and Lee Peng knew it, they understood and accepted the fact that Singapore cannot abandon Taiwan total just like that. They certainly have the big heart of big leaders. Now China is bigger economically, but do you have the big heart?? yr action shows.
Singaporeans go to poll once every 4 yrs, to elect our leaders. We have the right to vote! Chinese in China have no right to vote so you have a long long way to go before you can call our leader emperor or prince!!
So read yr history, know yourself, and speak wisely. Let others respect you for yr wisdom, kindness and generosity!! don let them fear you just because you are big.
Have a good day. -
No one is questioning your pride in being a citizen of your PRC.The main point here is that you should never ever tell others how to behave when they visit another country.The whole issue started because your shallow-minded government cannot swallow their pride and admit that Taiwan has been in every sense an independant nation, save for an official proclamation.Pull away those wool from your eyes and look at the reality in the Straits today.Does "face" mean so much to you that you are willing to call the bluff and forsake all the progress you guys have built up just so that you can assuage your measly pride?Only when you fellas answer this question,can there be peace in the straits.Why force a country to return when they refuse to?Originally posted by go_china:First of all, I'm a citizen of PRC, and proud to be one.
Singapore, or for that matter, any other country has their rights to do what's in their best interest. BUT, DON"T STEP ON OTHERS TOES, or you're gonna have a foot in your ass.
I don't care if your Prince Lee's visit to our Taiwan province is official or unofficial. He made a carefully calculated political maneuver. And it backfired. So now you, as a country, will have to face the consequences. Don't like it?? Tell your Emperor Lee or Prince Lee to stop stick their noses in other people's business, or do you have any guts to say anything?
I'm a firm believer of asymmetric responses : be nice to me once, I'll be nice to you ten times; betray me once, I'll make sure you won't dare to do it again for the rest of your farting natural life.
Decision is yours, be wise.
Secondly, I resent the high-handed ways that the PRC chooses to treat others.Wake up, no one owes you 150 years of lost progress.IF your ancestors and mine chose to be incompetent centuries ago when dealing with progress,grow up and do not behave as iuf the whole world needs you.I've seen lotsa fellas behaving in a proud and arrogant manner, thinking that the world belongs to them.A "Middle Kingdom" mentality will be the cause of another downfall.The PRC must realise that the world works on give and take, and you cannot insist on something to be done your way.Then again, you may point out that the United States is a hegemonic power, often bullying others into submission.It may have its terrible conflicts and prone to warmongering, but we tolerate her because she has given us much in advancement for our societies, e.g Space technologies, the ideals of freedom and enfranchisement for each individual, the fostering of a society where one can experiment, etc. Only when China can be that much of a helping hand to the world , then perhaps there will be others out there who may tolerate slight temper tantrums. -
Responding to the comment :"The whole issue started because your shallow-minded government cannot swallow their pride and admit that Taiwan has been in every sense an independant nation, save for an official proclamation.Pull away those wool from your eyes and look at the reality in the Straits today."
We need to recognise the reality that no Chinese, from both sides of the Straits want two independent China!! In the early days, ROC was the only China and when PRC was recognised later as the letigimate Chinese government, Taiwan was reduced to a province. Taiwan has always been a province of China in Chinese history.
No Chinese leaders want to go down in history being responsible for the creation of two China, in this case, allowing an independent Taiwan.
The one who started this Taiwan independence was Lee Teng Hui, a politician who betrayed his party, a Chinese with a Japanese name, ready to run to Japan whenever there is problem in Taiwan. This whole issue about independence is a political game put up by the Taiwanese politicians to retain power. They resorted to many other methods that remain an international joke.
From the election result, at least 50% of those in Taiwan do not agree to independence!!! Too many Taiwanese are in China making a living.
The Taiwanese politicians today are asking the local Taiwanese aborigines to migrate to south america.... so who are the Taiwanese who want an independent Taiwan??
We should not judge the country politics with our own mind. -
I think it is a bit unfair to say it tat way. The real history is in the past, there is only KuoMinTang who is the central Gov of china. However there is a revolt from communist and both of them fought a bitter battle. At tat time communists is more popular thus manage to push KMT forces so much so they retreat to taiwan. The battle end as such and KMT remains in taiwan while communist take over central china.
Now we got to ask tis question, does taking over beijing or central china means tat KMT have to give up and surrender to communists ?
It is like a fake scenario where USA fight with china. US attack untill china retreated to tibet. So question now is, should Tibet be US or China then ? I am sure most rational guy will say it still belongs to China as it had not fallen to US yet. Isn't tat similar to situation of Taiwan ? KMT used to control china + taiwan. They lose the war and retreat to taiwan and the Communist party never complete the attack on taiwan too. So naturally shouldn't Taiwan by its own an independent nation by itself ?
nobody want to have 2 china ? Why don't china just let the taiwan people decide instead of giving them pressure about it ? If it really do means tat most taiwan people want to join back to china, then let them vote it themselves without any fear of reprisal from china. Maybe more than 50% of the people do not want independence, but I surely can say less people actually want to join back china too. most people just want to remain things the way they r.
The source of troubles is actually from Mao Tse tong... it is him who suggest tat taiwan must be taken back when he himself didn't do it... after which the following chinese gov can not do any backtrack but to follow on his orders...
BTW we have digress... just my individual thinking on the rights of sovereign in taiwan... -
Well said.The crux here is that Taiwan must be allowed to decide her own fate.If China wants to reunify, let it persuade and "sell" Taiwan the merits of such a deal.but peaceful reunification is impossible, just let the status quo remain. Letting Taiwan go her way might be more beneficial to China both economically and politically.Let not the legacy of ghosts pull China down and plunge the Straits into turmoil.Believe me, fighting a war with Taiwan will not make friends out of the Taiwanese.If the first shot is fired from China, the world has a duty to prevent this sort of naked bullying, not only the United States.
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Fighting should really be avoided if possible. Lets say US didn't turn up for the fight between taiwan and china. Although taiwan can not win china in military terms, I am pretty sure Taiwan can destroyed a few major China cities before he sinks. If US turns out more cities will be destroyed and more people will be killed. Do china people want to go back to the lives where people become poor and loves one killed. Don't underestimate the military capability of Taiwan... Frankly I believe they r on par with south korea of even better. And wat will happen to taiwan after the war ? It will probably becomes another iraq state of the east or it is just a flat burning ground where almost all the infrastructure is destroyed and their people dead. Tis time foreign investor will not come over anymore as they felt china is more unstable than they thinks. Who benefits ? Maybe the US or Europe... Who loses ? Chinese people...
Again I have digressed.... sorree....... -
Nah.You haven't digressed.This is something the PRC must face up to.
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Let us balance everything nicely. Domestically support the citizens' aspirations and guide them into gelling with you together to thrive and succeed as one. Don't try to talk down on them or disregard their problems like high costs.
Externally, do not do another "high-profile" stand-off. We should be more helpful to all our neighbours including China instead of trying to lecture them on our achievements or perceived intellectualism. Quiet diplomacy needs EQ to work. Stay off China topic for a while. Let it cool and talk more naturally without all these tiffs. -
To my opinion, the Chinese government should not be so narrow-minded. Since Singapore already has relationships with Taiwan and LHL already declared his trip to TW as unofficial, the Chinese government's actions towards Singapore is uncalled for.
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Speaking in the stand of the Chinese government, they may think that Singapore treats Taiwan as an independent nation. However, that is not true because Singapore respects China's One China Policy.
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Speaking in the stand of our Singapore government, we sincerely respect One China Policy and sees China and Taiwan as our friend too. Since we have military ties with Taiwan, whats wrong with LHL going to Taiwan ?
If Singapore doesn't respect China, LHL will have declared his trip to TW as Official.
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It is true that China is good for military tactics and have a potential huge market. The Chinese of China have also been upgrading themselves by studying English. Thats a good sign. However, they still can't change their own behaviour. They still show signs of a big bully in them. Recently, they displayed an unacceptable behaviour in the Asian Cup 2004 by booing at their official but with other countries' officials present, they shouldn't display such acts.
In the recent SARS attack, China covered up everything before Mr Jiang revealed everything. The Chinese government immediately detained him for telling the TRUTH ! If China have not covered the SARS incident, there will not be a wide spread infection across Asia and even Canada.
In their poor handling of Hongkong has also let to protests and demonstrations in the streets.
As for Taiwan, China should not force them so hard as to threaten to use military actions against them. Since the 50% of the Taiwanese have voted not to be independent, China should relent.
A warning to China will be that if China really starts a war against Taiwan, there is a possibility that it will be a war involving the world and the war will also ensure that their economies will go down.
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Conclusion
I understand that China is too big and is difficult to manage every single provinces and cities perfectly. However, up till now, the fact is that the Chinese Government must learn to behave properly.
As our Chinese sayings say. " The Government Behaves Badly, the People will follow"
Since our chinese sayings teach us to be a better person, but WHY aren't the Chinese in China follow the teachings and sayings ?
I certainly hope they will try to change for the better and learn to view all matters at a different angle and aspect as it will benefits everyone in the end.
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Since when it was your toe? =) the 1949 stuff haven't ended lol..Originally posted by go_china:First of all, I'm a citizen of PRC, and proud to be one.
Singapore, or for that matter, any other country has their rights to do what's in their best interest. BUT, DON"T STEP ON OTHERS TOES, or you're gonna have a foot in your ass.
I don't care if your Prince Lee's visit to our Taiwan province is official or unofficial. He made a carefully calculated political maneuver. And it backfired. So now you, as a country, will have to face the consequences. Don't like it?? Tell your Emperor Lee or Prince Lee to stop stick their noses in other people's business, or do you have any guts to say anything?
I'm a firm believer of asymmetric responses : be nice to me once, I'll be nice to you ten times; betray me once, I'll make sure you won't dare to do it again for the rest of your farting natural life.
Decision is yours, be wise.
Remember the Motto , anything you can't defend , you don't own =)
Yes definitely , you are proud to be a citizen of PRC ...of course i understand
But mister ,
In the 1st place , LHL has informed China about going to taiwan ,
that means we regard CHINA has the central authority over Taiwan , and its the same as informing china if we were to visit tibet, heilongjiang , xinjiang ,hubei or shanghai or beijing.
Of course we do accept 1 China policy .nobody wishes to see 2 splitted chinas..But anyway how have you all contributed to Taiwan's economical success and BTW , U might have a foot on OUR Asses,
but be careful , Uncle SAM is watching and uncle sam definitely has a large foot which is about 10 times ur size =D
US Has F-55 Variants which is designed to destroy spy satellites , a military craft 1st ever in space.
US has F-22 and YF-35 which is designed for ultimate air superiority over XXJ
(china's equivalent of F-22) and other SU-33 and SU-30.
Since 1949 , they have been running their own lives anyway , it is covered under NATO with members countries like UK,France,USA and Spain and Italy to block any communism influence over democratic hence the war over korea,vietnam and many places..
NATO in terms of total military size is about 8,000 fighter jets + about 20 combined aircraft carriers , anyway , the problem is , they still regard China as a "commie". So after reading the above paragraph , you would know what they would do even if pple try to force democratic into commies...
USA were fighting a war almost directly in korea and vietnam , each time challenging CN's forces + Soviet oso directly/indirectly.
Anyway , Singapore will never ever betray china ,
we sent money backed to China to fight WWII and got our PPLE punished
in our history textbooks cause the $$ sent back to china made them suffer considerable losses , we oso feel the pain in the rape of nanking and outrage against the JAPS.
sent SARS scanner and helped China fight SARS in terms of letting them know about quarentine
Suzhou's industrial park 10 years continuation of software technology
When suzhou has a rival industrial park and the business was losing out,
singapore did make noise and did singapore adopted DRASTIC actions
over SIP? no.
Singapore owns 60% of it that makes it the majority invester and we should be able to do , did u ever helped us..?
78% of foreign investments went to CHINA in 2003! enuf said.
Zero criticism of China , EVER .
Regarded China always as our "own pple" hua ren. =)
Glad you would view this post with objectivity.
Given the choice , i think we might not asked LHL to go TW.
But then again...TW has strong military ties with us
vs strong Economic ties with China..
KMT actually should be the legitimate govt over China..haiz
got overthrown by Communist..
From CN's point of view, its the same as quelling the so called
illegitimate govt aka rebel from the main house..only to have the illegitimate govt staying on the balcony now..
Thats why must use swat team to clear the balcony and take back the balcony
From TW's point of view, its the same thing as being overthrown
by pple whom is perceived as "hardcore" and "power hungry" "no freedom"in the main house and believe that it itself was being coup'e tat and had no choice but to go somewhere else to but to escape the balcony to avoid dying..
Luckily at the balcony ...there's someone called mr.sam who is constantly helping people challenge "hardcore"and "power hungry" and supports capitalist..
Anyway if KMT has succeeded in controlling CN now..i believe the communists would be on taiwan now..LOL...den the war might be some sorta different.
im still kinda upset over TianAnMen..how can chinese do it to chinese..
anyway a war in the straits would push China back to 1985?'s -
what worries me is how Chinese interpreted Lee Junior's visit. It is not as simple as some of us said -- China doest own Singapore. Fed upon the growing sense of nationalism, Chinese felt entitled to claim what they believed was lost to them more than a century back, and cheated if the rest of world did not readily acknowledge their title.
It is pointless to compare military strengths between China/US/Taiwan. Rationalis never goes hand-in-hand with nationalism. When its claim is answered with snub and Taiwan is being viewed increasingly as a link of chain put in place to contain it, well, Chinese will probably take to an more aggressive, albeit irrational, path. Remember it is a nuclear power.
History offered many precedences: America's invasions of Cuba and Mexico in late 1800s and early 1900s, and more notably, Germany's screaming of Encirclement in 1914.
I kindof wish Lee would have made a better representation to China before he embarked on the trip. No one actually benefits by adding fuel to the surging nationalism in China. -
Military and politics are oso very closely intertwined..
cuz military is force and politics is also the control of force -
I am very glad to answer your questions, because you knew China stabilizing the RMB exchange rate at least. So you may also know the origin and the nature of the enconomy crisis in 1997-1998, maybe the "black hand behind the curtain". So you may understand why China insisted to stabilize RMB. So, HK is only one reason, frankly, PM Zhu and China took the responsibility as a member of Asia. That is why the soldier is a developing country not a developed country. However, as to the loss of China, it's better for you to find out the data by yourself. What I say may not be strong enough to convince you.
You dont need to express you understanding on the China past, whatever you do or not, believe me, China is not like you imaging now.
I dont question your feeling lucky, any country must own trade, army and water. But it is not easy to say that is a "help" or a "business".
Answer me: Did China ask any type, any piece of reward for her efforts during the crisis?
The missiles and taiwan, I suggest you recalling my questions in my previous post, after answering my questions, you dont need my expainations any more.
As to SARS, personal opinion, it is better for Singaporeans not to mention, especially to China. China has never intended to create any virus, and announced the unknown virus at first time. If there is any government or organization ignored or did not believe our government's announcement, then it is not what China can control. Like AIDS, the first case happened in US and now thousands of lives lost, but nobody condemned US. People always have some logic in their behaviour.
However, however, dont forget what your PM has done and said to China. You Look at the whole world, at that time, can you find the second country like Singapore to treat China in that way? If someone forgot, see below.
PM Goh is the first and only country leader who refused to visit to China, whiles PM of France and DM of India went to China in plan.
On May 2, PM Goh announced in public that China will spend 2 or 3 years to fight SARs and "do not put eggs in the same basket".
In fact, only half year, and more and more investments went into China. In fact, most of countries gave various aids to China including UK, Germany, Japan, Korea and even US. They knew that this is a battle between virus and human being.
But, but, where is our friend, Singapore? Not willing to support , that 's Ok, why attack?
I also invite all of you who want to make the thing clear to see the paper published in your Zaobao website. http://www.zaobao.com/yl/yl505_210704.html
I would like to say that the thing about your DPM is clear enough, the rest things are whether you can really understand, and what your government will behave.Originally posted by Qkool:may i ask u a question? how china had hurt so badly in the economy crisis by helping Asia? give more detail pls?
economy growth drop?
for what i know, china only stable the RMB..what hurt so bad?(pls correct me if im wrong)
i do agree china had help Asia,but China main is to help HK,dont forget 1997 HK just return to china..they must defend HK economy.
yes,as chinese.it hurt to learn china been bully by other from 100yr back.
i do feel lucky ..for US supporting singapore in Trade and military.
i do feel lucky for england for helping us for water and indepandent.
i do feel lucky for Israel for help us to build our army.
i really think china is a peaceful friend..really .
but no few missiles aim at taiwan? it 400 missiles leh..
just think you are taiwanese? how you feel?
pls dont only look from china view .
and don't forget the SARS yet...have china aid singapore? taiwan?
ya...he have aid HK,and dont even have any word of apologise
from SARS.
so what when chairman HU want to donate $ to asia to fight against SARS?
japan also aid many $$$ to china,but they still own china an apologise. -
To Roquet,
there are lot of thing i want to say..but when i know China have sold missile and tranfer missiles tech to malaysia..i dont wish to discuss over any topic with any china man..
dont forget who chase out the chinese before singapore independent.
who help the chinese more than China did when Indonesia killing chinese not long ago.
so long to any hope to become any truth friend to chinaman or PRC .
maybe to you is fair... but thank for china let us face the same threat as taiwanese. -
You dont need to express you understanding on the China past, whatever you do or not, believe me, China is not like you imaging now.
Please elaborateI dont question your feeling lucky, any country must own trade, army and water. But it is not easy to say that is a "help" or a "business".
I don't understand
Answer me: Did China ask any type, any piece of reward for her efforts during the crisis?As to SARS, personal opinion, it is better for Singaporeans not to mention, especially to China. China has never intended to create any virus, and announced the unknown virus at first time. If there is any government or organization ignored or did not believe our government's announcement, then it is not what China can control. Like AIDS, the first case happened in US and now thousands of lives lost, but nobody condemned US. People always have some logic in their behaviour.
okieHowever, however, dont forget what your PM has done and said to China. You Look at the whole world, at that time, can you find the second country like Singapore to treat China in that way? If someone forgot, see below.
Wat has PM done and said to China ? BTW, I find the below report biase and very inaccurate.. even the proposed motives for his visit seems to be ridiculous... Frankly do u think LHL is dumb... he is certain to be PM, why purposely create trouble for himself to become "famous" ? Frankly does tis argument hold any water ? It is like putting sh!t on my face before receiving a prize in a prize giving ceremony. Do people do tat ? Also he falsely accuse singapore of supporting taiwan independence... do we do tat ? I think the report is really off the point
I find the explanation from LHL more convincing and believable... please be objective... Even in singapore news there r hardly any report of his visit to taiwan... it is deliberately meant for it to be low key. If he want to be famous, surely he will do much publicity first isn't it ? When he is caught he say tat it is an unofficial visit. If he want to be famous surely he will acknowledge he is on an official visit ?PM Goh is the first and only country leader who refused to visit to China, whiles PM of France and DM of India went to China in plan.
Frankly, I never seems to have heard tis comment from PM goh before. Can u offer me some objective info to read ? Something seems to be funny... I thought Wen jia Bao and Goh Chok Tong is at the ASEAN summit on SARS on 30 April ?
On May 2, PM Goh announced in public that China will spend 2 or 3 years to fight SARs and "do not put eggs in the same basket".
In fact, only half year, and more and more investments went into China. In fact, most of countries gave various aids to China including UK, Germany, Japan, Korea and even US. They knew that this is a battle between virus and human being.
But, but, where is our friend, Singapore? Not willing to support , that 's Ok, why attack?
http://www.sars.gov.sg/archive/Asean%20Leaders%20Hammer%20Out%20Sars%20battle%20Plan%20(BT).html
http://www.sars.gov.sg/archive/S'pore's%20Hot%20Anti-Sars%20Export%20-%20Thermal%20Scanners%20(ST).html
Singapore even lent the thermo scanner to HK, surely HK is part of china in 2003 isn't it ?
We r allies on the fight against SARs. Why suddenly turn your back on us when LHL just go to taiwan to discuss issues, issues not related to china...
If u talk about attack, I can only see china banning visa for singapore. It appears to be a tit for tat action because malaysia banned the visa for china, which does not have anything to do with singapore again. In fact china banned visa to singapore for more than 5 weeks. At the meantime singapore do nto do any imposition for people who want to come over here, whoever they r.
http://www.sars.gov.sg/archive/Beijing%20To%20Lift%20S'pore%20Travel%20Ban%20Soon%20(BT).html
When it comes to SARs, singapore is hit pretty bad either. Why should we donate to china when we ourselves r dying from it ? It is like people who had kidney failure donating to NKF ? Singapore did not contribute any money and instead is planning to work with Japan to give practical help to affected countries, isn't tat good enough ? R we forced to give money out ?
http://www.sars.gov.sg/archive/Singapore%20Offers%20China%20Help%20And%20Equipment%20To%20Fight%20Sars%20(ST).html
We do help by providing equipment and help at tat date isn't it ?I also invite all of you who want to make the thing clear to see the paper published in your Zaobao website. http://www.zaobao.com/yl/yl505_210704.html
My comments on your report is given above. Please ponder on it...
I would like to say that the thing about your DPM is clear enough, the rest things are whether you can really understand, and what your government will behave. -
1) I am a PRC and I am also a PR of Sinagpore. I stay here for about 10 years for study and work. I love china and like singapore, too. I have some very close sinapore friends though not many;
2) I am a bit sad about the current situation. It shouldn't develop like this.
3) I don't want to judge who is more right and who is more wrong and I just want to share with you what I understand from both sides
4) The DPM visit to Taiwan is not as worse as China government think and it is also not as simple as most Singaporeans think.
5) To most of general singaporeans, they are quite kind and straitforword and they don't like politics. However, it is very different for those "best of best" in the government bodies.
To the general singaporeans, they think it is not a big deal and china over-reacts. it is just a "personal visit". However, it is not true. If you don't believe it, you shouldn't come to this forum.
When they heard the missile news, they feel that they are betrayed by the friend and the friend sell weapon to their FOE. They get hurt very very badly.
As for china, we feel that USA and Japan are trying all the means to help taiwan independent and stop china become strong. there will be a militory exercise for Taiwan and USA in August. At this sensitive moment, the DPM visited Taiwan. To us, you send a wrong signal to Chen Shui Bian and you regonize them and you are standing the same line with them to prevend china taking back Taiwan. It will encourage other country to do the same things. It hurts us just like you hear that china prepare sell missile to Malasia.
Are you able to understand it already? To us, Taiwan is the most sensitive part in our heart. You CANNOT stimulate it since you don't know what is going to happen and it will out of control. China goverment will just fight back without thinking wisely.
As for us, we don't mind to pay ANYTHING to unite Taiwan back even to fight with the whole world. Taiwan is just like the symbol for the past 100 years sad history to china. We just can't forget it.
6) As for myself, I strongly against that Chian sells missile to Malasia and let them threaton other chinese. Just think those chinese in Indonesia. We can solve the problem through other ways.
7) Both parties need to be cool down and talk faithfully. Forget about the "FACE". Otherwise,
the winning party: Taiwan, Malasia, USA, Japan
the loser party: China, Singapore
Is this the result we want or not?
We can be good friends and partners if we have the willing and respecting each other. We can solve the problem together and stop pointing the finger each other.