What So Big Deal About China
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it is a lot fun to read your post i have to say.Originally posted by LazerLordz:No one is questioning your pride in being a citizen of your PRC.The main point here is that you should never ever tell others how to behave when they visit another country.The whole issue started because your shallow-minded government cannot swallow their pride and admit that Taiwan has been in every sense an independant nation, save for an official proclamation.Pull away those wool from your eyes and look at the reality in the Straits today.Does "face" mean so much to you that you are willing to call the bluff and forsake all the progress you guys have built up just so that you can assuage your measly pride?Only when you fellas answer this question,can there be peace in the straits.Why force a country to return when they refuse to?
Secondly, I resent the high-handed ways that the PRC chooses to treat others.Wake up, no one owes you 150 years of lost progress.IF your ancestors and mine chose to be incompetent centuries ago when dealing with progress,grow up and do not behave as iuf the whole world needs you.I've seen lotsa fellas behaving in a proud and arrogant manner, thinking that the world belongs to them.A "Middle Kingdom" mentality will be the cause of another downfall.The PRC must realise that the world works on give and take, and you cannot insist on something to be done your way.Then again, you may point out that the United States is a hegemonic power, often bullying others into submission.It may have its terrible conflicts and prone to warmongering, but we tolerate her because she has given us much in advancement for our societies, e.g Space technologies, the ideals of freedom and enfranchisement for each individual, the fostering of a society where one can experiment, etc. Only when China can be that much of a helping hand to the world , then perhaps there will be others out there who may tolerate slight temper tantrums.
1. "you should never ever tell others how to behave."
what's the problem? As long as your behavior affects someone else, there will be someone telling you how to behave. I even heard somewhere in the world people use a whip to tell.
You do not put your big nose into other's muffin then say"you should never tell me how to behave" and expect nothing bad will happen, do you?
2. "Secondly, I resent the high-handed ways that the PRC chooses to treat others. blah blah blah"
you pointed your finger at china's behavior but said the others should not do that to SG? I am curious why you are so special. -
kenken,nice to hear from ur side.Originally posted by kenken:1) I am a PRC and I am also a PR of Sinagpore. I stay here for about 10 years for study and work. I love china and like singapore, too. I have some very close sinapore friends though not many;
2) I am a bit sad about the current situation. It shouldn't develop like this.
3) I don't want to judge who is more right and who is more wrong and I just want to share with you what I understand from both sides
4) The DPM visit to Taiwan is not as worse as China government think and it is also not as simple as most Singaporeans think.
5) To most of general singaporeans, they are quite kind and straitforword and they don't like politics. However, it is very different for those "best of best" in the government bodies.
To the general singaporeans, they think it is not a big deal and china over-reacts. it is just a "personal visit". However, it is not true. If you don't believe it, you shouldn't come to this forum.
When they heard the missile news, they feel that they are betrayed by the friend and the friend sell weapon to their FOE. They get hurt very very badly.
As for china, we feel that USA and Japan are trying all the means to help taiwan independent and stop china become strong. there will be a militory exercise for Taiwan and USA in August. At this sensitive moment, the DPM visited Taiwan. To us, you send a wrong signal to Chen Shui Bian and you regonize them and you are standing the same line with them to prevend china taking back Taiwan. It will encourage other country to do the same things. It hurts us just like you hear that china prepare sell missile to Malasia.
Are you able to understand it already? To us, Taiwan is the most sensitive part in our heart. You CANNOT stimulate it since you don't know what is going to happen and it will out of control. China goverment will just fight back without thinking wisely.
As for us, we don't mind to pay ANYTHING to unite Taiwan back even to fight with the whole world. Taiwan is just like the symbol for the past 100 years sad history to china. We just can't forget it.
6) As for myself, I strongly against that Chian sells missile to Malasia and let them threaton other chinese. Just think those chinese in Indonesia. We can solve the problem through other ways.
7) Both parties need to be cool down and talk faithfully. Forget about the "FACE". Otherwise,
the winning party: Taiwan, Malasia, USA, Japan
the loser party: China, Singapore
Is this the result we want or not?
We can be good friends and partners if we have the willing and respecting each other. We can solve the problem together and stop pointing the finger each other.
anyway i know my posting is abit too much but still have long way to learn from your china military bbs (forum)
I know how china mind about taiwan , but no matter how...i hate PRC giving before 2020 recover taiwan with military..
Do you know how serious if China military recover Taiwan ? Just hope China keep trying for peaceful way to due with Taiwan(which i don't really see ).
and do u think LHL and singapore will support Taiwan's independent? -
read though BBS, found most of the posts there really aggressive and militaristic. , its like if these people have control over china , tml would be war for taiwanOriginally posted by Qkool:kenken,nice to hear from ur side.
anyway i know my posting is abit too much but still have long way to learn from your china military bbs (forum)
I know how china mind about taiwan , but no matter how...i hate PRC giving before 2020 recover taiwan with military..
Do you know how serious if China military recover Taiwan ? Just hope China keep trying for peaceful way to due with Taiwan(which i don't really see ).
and do u think LHL and singapore will support Taiwan's independent?
and as for peaceful wars to recover taiwan ,
one thing i've observed , of all the times china's recovered taiwan thoughout history, none of them were peacefull
think this would be a first?
as for whether LHL and singapore will support Taiwan's independence
you'll have to ask first, LHL and what singapore?you almost sounded like we have a choice in the direction of our country -
they have to answer to me everyday...Originally posted by oldbreadstinks:as for whether LHL and singapore will support Taiwan's independence
you'll have to ask first, LHL and what singapore?you almost sounded like we have a choice in the direction of our country -
like the way the gst went up?Originally posted by Qkool:they have to answer to me everyday... -
yes, and the money you reclaim $500 lah, $400 lah,$800 lah all from my personal pocket.Originally posted by oldbreadstinks:like the way the gst went up?
PAP is all under me one..(starting to cock now already)
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The problem is not on PRC side now! DPP is gona change the constitution of ROC in 2006 and put it into practice in 2008, it is obviours a way of declaration for independence, ces' in the constitution of ROC, it is written clearly that the definition of Republic of "China" includes the places which togather the PRC and Taiwan island!Originally posted by Qkool:kenken,nice to hear from ur side.
anyway i know my posting is abit too much but still have long way to learn from your china military bbs (forum)
I know how china mind about taiwan , but no matter how...i hate PRC giving before 2020 recover taiwan with military..
Do you know how serious if China military recover Taiwan ? Just hope China keep trying for peaceful way to due with Taiwan(which i don't really see ).
and do u think LHL and singapore will support Taiwan's independent?
PRC can not just wait and see Taiwan going actual independence without taking any action! It will bring PRC huge political and social consequences! So it better now to prepare for the war!
American neocons dunt want to see a strong China in the future, so it is gona use the Taiwan as a war break our point to stop China's development, which is a bastard behaviour! -
I didn't expect my very first post would generate so many responses. I'll try my best to read them all if I can find the time.
However, I do want make my points clear. This is a real world, and real word speaks power politics. Chinese national interest/security would not allow Taiwan province to go independent nor forming military alliance with any foreign power AT ANY COST. Just look at US and Cuba, you might understand how serious Taiwan is to China.
Singapore is in a pretty tough environment, but poking a waking giant in the wrong spot at the wrong time, is definitely not adding any security to your city state. -
I really appreciate kenken's views.
I found this from the Chinese foreign ministry website.
http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/chn/xwfw/fyrth/t143616.htm
If you can read chinese, there is a style in the way that these statements are drafted.
For one, i remember that in the very first statement, that the feelings of the 1.3 billion chinese people are hurt by the visit.
now, the foreign describe that in the visit, their "core interest" had been violated.
It always seems to me that the words are carefully chosen to maximise their impact, which appeals to very nationalistic feelings. I personally would have found it very difficult to appreciate what "core interest" mean, though I think it means that Taiwan must be isolated from contacts with other nations. In that aspect, LHL did do the Chinese a disfavour.
One must also ask if the visit by LHL was absoloutely necessary? If so, what about the timing? And is it necessary for such a high level official to go? Would not someone more junior in rank have sufficed?
LHL made a calculated move to visit Taiwan, knowing full well China will not be pleased with the visit. And it is true that it backfired. Singapore suffers the brunt of the consequences, not China. But how badly has it backfired? Not too much I feel. The cost of the consequences do not seem to be too big, that is for sure, only high level visits have been cancelled. So it should not have too big of an impact. -
It is interesting to note, MFA has said that if Singapore were to accept China's request not to go to Taiwan, it would have affected Singapore's international standing as an independent sovereign nation. That I totally agree. But the point of threading on someone's toes is also valid. LHL was received by the highest level officials, befitting a head of state visit. It is an unofficial visit, says the singapore government, but is the substance of the visit unofficial? I think the Singapore govt wanted it to be, but the taiwanese did not want it to be. If unofficial and private, then there should have been absoulutely a media blackout on the visit. The singapore press did not report, which is the right thing to do, but the taiwanese press did. How should the taiwanese press know about Lee's visit? Your guess is as good as mine. It is no wonder that Lee has inadvertably been used by the Taiwanese to promote independence, by giving his visit blatant media coverage. Chen Shui Bian gave his visit the same kind of treatment that any foreign dignitary to taiwan would receive - which is bound to infurate China. Lee has said he did not speak to the Taiwanese media. So the stories about Teo Chee Hean visiting with LHL must have been made up by the Taiwanese then. My point - China is simply upset that Lee's visit had given a boost to independence advocators, of which LHL had absoloutely no control of. LHL's visit has only given Taiwan an advantage. In fact, LHL played right into Taiwan's game, and the Taiwanese made full use of it. China, I guess, had very good reasons not to have LHL go to Taiwan. It is then no wonder, that the "core interest" has been violated.
So my question is, what could have been the reason that made the visit absoloutely unaviodable (to the extent that China says "Why must China's sovereignty and core interests be harmed as a price to support Singapore's rights and international standing?", read the chinese foreign ministry statement for its exact phrasing)? Lee's explaination that he is there to understand the situation in Taiwan seems to me to brush only the surface of a deeper cavity. His answer is too vague. It is no wonder the Chinese did not accept his explanation. So i guess, LHL must be there to settle some other critical issues, which could not have been revealed.
I suppose if there was a media blackout, then China would probably not have made too much noise, since the Chinese was notified beforehand that LHL was going. But the taiwanese media made reports a few days into the visit, so I suppose China had no choice but to announce her displeasure, otherwise, China would be seen to be condoning the visit, which is the last thing she would want.
In any case, I believe Singapore should and would have made calculations into the kind of impact that would affect Singapore should China reveal its displeasure. I guess we should be lucky that the impact has not been too harsh, like what I mentioned above.
It is my opinion that the Taiwanese have a motive in having media coverage of LHL's visit. But LHL should not be exonerated from responsibility I feel. He could have requested the Taiwanese side that his visit should receive total media blackout. Of course, that would benefit Singapore, but not Taiwan. In any case, does the Taiwanese government have any control over the media? If LHL had known that the taiwanese government could not control the media, then the singapore government should have prepared to do some damage control , so that it would not further erode the relationships between the Taiwan and China. -
come on lah... dont speak in this form.. i thought all china man in bbs thought singapore is begging china for a living.Originally posted by go_china:I didn't expect my very first post would generate so many responses. I'll try my best to read them all if I can find the time.
However, I do want make my points clear. This is a real world, and real word speaks power politics. Chinese national interest/security would not allow Taiwan province to go independent nor forming military alliance with any foreign power AT ANY COST. Just look at US and Cuba, you might understand how serious Taiwan is to China.
Singapore is in a pretty tough environment, but poking a waking giant in the wrong spot at the wrong time, is definitely not adding any security to your city state.
whatever.. what i can tell you is, go back to china bbs and leave us a clean room. i dont post anything on the china bbs.
tell you the truth, if the china bbs keep running in this form, no matter how china govt have do..meaningless...
how many jap/taiwanese/korean/singapore know how china people thinking.
and i tell you ,mainly what you'll have know not really the real fact. -
dunno bout that I only know artemis is a chio buOriginally posted by StMichael:shen dun (god shield, literally) = Aegis. Aegis was the shield of Artemis, I believe. Anybody can correct me if I made an error?
jkjk -
Originally posted by SibeiSuayKia:
whoa what did u see on that page that suddenly changed your life?!?!
eh..i was stumped man..i thought F-22 is invincible..
wahhh...wonder if they are really good anot...[/b]
blahblahblah F-22 blahblahblah
in terms of many things, F-22 not even as good as F-15 I think, it's just stealth and stuff. -
If most Singaporean people are as ignorant and inner-looking as you, then I probably wouldn't have wasted my time posting here. But my experiences tell me they are not.Originally posted by Qkool:come on lah... dont speak in this form.. i thought all china man in bbs thought singapore is begging china for a living.
whatever.. what i can tell you is, go back to china bbs and leave us a clean room. i dont post anything on the china bbs.
tell you the truth, if the china bbs keep running in this form, no matter how china govt have do..meaningless...
how many jap/taiwanese/korean/singapore know how china people thinking.
and i tell you ,mainly what you'll have know not really the real fact. -
Whatever you saw in China's BBS can not be applied to all Chinese! It is like what we saw here can not be applied to all Singaporean! Of course, there are many good people and bad people in any country, not only in China but also in Singapore.Originally posted by Qkool:come on lah... dont speak in this form.. i thought all china man in bbs thought singapore is begging china for a living.
whatever.. what i can tell you is, go back to china bbs and leave us a clean room. i dont post anything on the china bbs.
tell you the truth, if the china bbs keep running in this form, no matter how china govt have do..meaningless...
how many jap/taiwanese/korean/singapore know how china people thinking.
and i tell you ,mainly what you'll have know not really the real fact.
China currently is a developing country, we defined us as a third world country. In this country, 1.3bn people are living togather, many of them are farmers, low paid workers, or even beggers. Millions of them especially senior citizens did not recieve proper education which most Singaporean did. So, it is not surprise to see those hostile views generated from them. After all, China still has long way to go to rise its citizens' education to a level that comparable to those of Singaporeans'.
As far as I know, most of rational Chinese citizens generally hold a friendly view on Singapore. They wish Singapore to be their friend not enemy! -
i will take back what i had say..i admit i not holding my EQ well when writing those. real sorry if my post offence you.Originally posted by sbs1zc:Whatever you saw in China's BBS can not be applied to all Chinese! It is like what we saw here can not be applied to all Singaporean! Of course, there are many good people and bad people in any country, not only in China but also in Singapore.
China currently is a developing country, we defined us as a third world country. In this country, 1.3bn people are living togather, many of them are farmers, low paid workers, or even beggers. Millions of them especially senior citizens did not recieve proper education which most Singaporean did. So, it is not surprise to see those hostile views generated from them. After all, China still has long way to go to rise its citizens' education to a level that comparable to those of Singaporeans'.
As far as I know, most of rational Chinese citizens generally hold a friendly view on Singapore. They wish Singapore to be their friend not enemy! -
k.Originally posted by Qkool:i will take back what i had say..i admit i not holding my EQ well when writing those. real sorry if my post offence you. -
not you lah ...extra!Originally posted by the.raven:k. -
k.Originally posted by Qkool:not you lah ...extra! -
Yup... I guess loudmonkey is right about certain issues, especially on the part of LHL playing into the hand of taiwan media and china have to be angry about it. The best thing now is just to cool it down and not make any insensitive comments...
Frankly as a small nation, we have been the "spanking boy" for malaysia on many other occasions as well...
Though recently we r starting to show our displeasure about it... -
Anyone heard a scrambling of F-16 in 2 am over the past few days??
ive been hearing alot of scramblings of F-16 over in singapore in midnight and 2am..
these planes must have been going below mach 1...cuz i can't really hear them ...
Anyway good luck with the crisis...
For US: To block China's rise and communism and to remain the No.1
as long as China's rise is blocked by US Naval base that operates
around Korea,Taiwan And Jap and the Guam's and Mariana's
Taiwan will act as a buffer
For China: Capturing taiwan without a war would give access to it's economy
and gain control over the military in TW , and get more $$
speeding up china's progress over USA
For Taiwan : To have own sovereignty.
Don't think ever could be a compromise , If China + Hong Kong + Taiwan + Macau and Beijing and ShangHai and other major cities combined will be a rival
to New York City , Los Angeles , San Francisco and Salt Lake city
and over time...the 1.3 bn pple's GDP willl increase...by 2020 i think will reach at least $10000 USD PCI . by then...Probably China's RMB will overtake USD as the main stuff...
Anyway what i feel is simple , if the world's top and most powerful country is a communist state...other countries might follow suit...and probably in 50 years to go...more countries might become vassals? or get influenced..
Eh as a singaporean-chinese , i somehow feel sad...
USA got access to alot of troubled spots in the world..bases in everywhere..
will definitely serve alot of goodness in time to come..
cause CN does not have any base near US's soil...can't deploy spy plane if any conflict arises..the buffer zone USA has is purely too great..
USA has a buffer zone about 8,000 km long..which is able to give them protection from CN.
China doesn't really have any buffer zone , the USA-backed countries are surrounding it is..Singapore to the south , Japan to the North East ,
Korea to the north east , Taiwan to the east.
if china wanna be big oso possible , just make sure that u can create bases around...etc etc
anyone who played Red Alert 2 will know the importance of a base..
for example u attack this base 1...base 2 come to defend from the other side...
and trap u
base 3 will come and attack ur backup etc etc..base 4 will do this and that..
And USA has many access to the Seas...thats why must be careful!
USA can access and come from indian ocean (takes longer time) or come thru South china sea or thru the straits or the japan + korea's waters and USA oso has a atlantic fleet...and pacific fleet..
whereelse china's only access is the EASTERN side where most of the major cities are located...the north is facing land etc russia and mongolia..
the west is facing india and the south is facing indo-china -
The day that we fall under a communist Pacific Rim force structure will be a sad day for all.That is why I would support two counterweights in the Pacific arena, The United States , and China.Unashamedly, I would back the US to keep the peace in Asia, as it is leaps and bounds ahead of any military in this region.Not all Chinese , I agree are warmongers, but if their government and military decide to be war-like, then it's a travesty for their people, Taiwanese, South-East Asians like us and the United States.Seeing that Taiwan might never reunify peacefully in the hearts and minds of their people, why not the PRC prepare itself mentally that one day they might have to play the gentleman and renounce control over Taiwan?Just my two cents worth, as usual.
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to all buddy who share the same view as me..
i had just change side..
i prepare not to have any more discussion about China view vs Singapore view anymore
so stupid and waste my time,no point to uphold our pride by 'words' and 'posting'. quite meaningless
i dont care how people said about Singapore.. just do our own part is good enough, prove them wrong in another way .
( singapore had been mistaken from the day we independent till now)
i not asking for any follower, just that sgforum is a nice place to chat within singapore interest or other ..
singapore is not build from posting...
and even how well you say will never change what china chinese believe in.
read what [Sanctuary] had said.. i think he is a real singaporean who make me proud.
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=86502 -
Just be calm.
I am not to comment who is right or wrong on this matter. I just hope both sides should be sensitive to the other's interests, respect each other and try to make up the demage as much as possible.
A few questions:
1. What did SG gain from this visit?
2. What did China lose?
3. is there any alternative way? -
My view is that China has a right to reintegrate Taiwan and we cannot dispute that Taiwan is a legitimate province of China. Saying you want independence after 50 years of warfare doesn't make it right, just or happen. Singapore needs to continue to play an intermediary role and be viewed as a negotiator in a peaceful reunification process by both sides, that is the palatable position to be in. Technically they are still at war and one nation simply divided by the course of recent history. The United States carried out its Civil War when southern states wanted to separate over a matter of diffenet lifestyles and politics...and at massive cost the victor ensured the country remained together...China has the same right to prevent Taiwan from independence, for the US to prevent it is hyprocrisy.
With respect to China's rise...China is still nothing without access to the U.S. and European markets, though this may moderate over the next 25 or so years. If the US were to shut access tomorrow, China would be screwed. China has become a trading and manufacturing nation reliant on trade routes, raw materials and the excahnge of goods and services, it is not a self-sufficient inward looking nation able to sustain simply on its own demand. With this freedom comes international responsibilities to behave within acceptable order and civilized boundaries, such are the conditions it accepted by joining the WTO and GATT. It's leaders know this.
China will be a regional power in 25 years, not a global power. Unlike the U.S. which straddles the two major oceans, and the USSR which straddles two major continents, China is geographically isolated to the north east coast of Asia and will never bring to bear sufficient influence outside its immediate sphere to challenge the US and its global allies. Moreover, China has numerous competing interests in its immediate vicinity which collectively will strain its ability to venture too far afield, including India, Russia, Japan, and the US. Any two together would likely be able to contain and defeat China. It is not in China's interest to be an aggressor, except when it comes to finalizing the chapter on its civil war and reclaiming the renegade province of Taiwan.
China will however be an economic powerhouse and probably have considerable influence in capital markets just as Japan had in the 80s, which in many respects may give them more implicit control over affairs than military aggression might. It's probable China will become the world's biggest economy within 30-50 years with roughly three times the population of each of North America and Europe.