My Views, Your Views, Lets hear from your side of the story.
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Since you understand why China wants reunification, then you should understand why they are thinking to resort to force. Ask Chen Shui Bian...He mentioned something like "China does not own taiwan"...Originally posted by tspg:I am Chinese and I understand why China wants reunification.
But what I do not understand is why they have to resort to force.
Please read the following article :
http://www.zaobao.com/yl/yl501_290704.html
You think China really wants to resort to force?? They don't..
Btw, the article is written by a famous Taiwanese journalist...Long yin tai..
This article is pretty one-sided.. -
"Wat is the reason tat taiwan should be part of china ?" Obviously you don read China History like many Singaporean, or you are just one of those who interpret history according to your will? Go read the history and don't judge the history, and you will know why.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Ya ya ya... I have been asking a question for some time now... wat is the rational tat taiwan must submit to china ? Wat is the reason tat taiwan should be part of china ? Now they r 2 different states altogether, and the most likely reunification means is through war, which will hurt both parties badly. Why don't u guys just let them be, or ignore them, or remains the status quo for them now ? Why purposely add the pressure, which result in making them more prone to independence ?
"Ya ya ya....Now they r 2 different states altogether..." SAYS WHO? In the world today, there is only one china, it was ROC and now PRC!! Even the few money hungry states in Africa and the Pacific which recognise ROC, do not recognise PRC at the same time. Close to 1 million taiwanese now are living in China, so what 2 states are you talking about. Again, you interpret the situation according to your will.
If you understand one china, then yr question "..the rational tat taiwan must submit to china?"
In the eighties and nineties, thousands of Taiwanese factories moved to China, and this enabled them to produce goods at low cost and retained their position as economic power house. So Taiwan knows the benefits of unifications, they have actually taken the "carrot" and are enjoying it.
Move towards independence is a mean used by Ah Bian to gain re-election as president and finally for DPP to control the parliament. Internally they did it at the expense of tearing the taiwanese society into two. Internationally, they are taking a risk with china, but they believe that China will not attack before 2008 because of olympics, and are stupid enough to believe that even if china were to attack, the american will come to their rescue. LHL took a risk with the sino-sing relationship to confirm that.
Pls note that it is not just China CP and its military commanders who would use force to prevent independence, the ordinary chinese on the streets are prepared to die to prevent independence; no overseas chinese, CP or KMT or no party want an independent taiwan. even at least half of taiwanese population do not want independence!! Is ah bian and his DPP acting dangerously against the will of the Chinese ppl?? risking a war for his political agenda??? do you now know why "...purposely add the pressure...."??
So if ah bian is making a wrong calculation, do you want to encourage him? I am glad LHL don't. -
If you read carefully that interview, you will know that Long Yin Tai speaks mostly about Chinese culture, and it has always been her advocate that Chinese culture should not be mixed with politics.Originally posted by sans-culotte:Since you understand why China wants reunification, then you should understand why they are thinking to resort to force. Ask Chen Shui Bian...He mentioned something like "China does not own taiwan"...
You think China really wants to resort to force?? They don't..
Btw, the article is written by a famous Taiwanese journalist...Long yin tai..
This article is pretty one-sided..
Long Yin Tai oftten criticizes sharply ruling party in Taiwan, it was the KMT, now the DPP. She even criticize Singapore.
In order that the mainland chinese do not become one sided also, it is important that they listen to the other side of the story. -
So the problem here is on Chen Sui Bian??Originally posted by sgdiehard:If you read carefully that interview, you will know that Long Yin Tai speaks mostly about Chinese culture, and it has always been her advocate that Chinese culture should not be mixed with politics.
Long Yin Tai oftten criticizes sharply ruling party in Taiwan, it was the KMT, now the DPP. She even criticize Singapore.
In order that the mainland chinese do not become one sided also, it is important that they listen to the other side of the story.
He kept making provocative comments during his speech to provoke China. -
You know, I think the reason Ah Bian can win the vote is exactly China doing the stupid thing of firing missiles during the earlier elections. Don't they understand that this will only make the Taiwanese vote Ah Bian just for the seek of pride? Now that Ah Bian is in power, he is causing more trouble and China keeps getting manuipulated by him, giving him more support from the Taiwanese who let their false pride get the better of them. In recent years, China has scored a lot of victory when it comes to diplomancy (like Iraq war, North Korea issue), but when it comes to Taiwan, they did all the wrong things, encouraging Taiwanese to alienate themselves further from China.
Historically, when KMT is still in power, they WANT to unite with China since they have always see themselves as Chinese. And the fact that Taiwan teaches China History, not Taiwan history proves this. If China had continue to negotiate with KMT, then things would have been much better now. Sigh....it may be too late now to win the hearts of Taiwanese people after what China has done to alientate the Taiwanese in recent years and they are still doing it further......Taiwan is getting further and further away now........ -
You may have miss some of my postings earlier. There are a few points I would like to clarify :Originally posted by sans-culotte:Since you understand why China wants reunification, then you should understand why they are thinking to resort to force. Ask Chen Shui Bian...He mentioned something like "China does not own taiwan"...
You think China really wants to resort to force?? They don't..
Btw, the article is written by a famous Taiwanese journalist...Long yin tai..
This article is pretty one-sided..
1 I am not anti-chinese
2 I strongly oppose the use of force in reunification, even if Taiwan declare independence. I have used the eg of Germany. Before reunification there were two independent countries separated by different systems but they reunify peacefully eventually, without bloodshed.
Taiwan and China are bonded by historical and cultural ties. I believe they will reunify eventually but it should be on terms acceptable to both sides and not a unilateral proclaimation by China.
As mentioned by me earlier and by Qitai later, if China is less aggressive towards Taiwan, bilateral ties would improve, support for Ah Bian will erode and peace talks can resume.
As for Loong Yin Tai she is Taiwanese but her stand is pro communication and understanding. I don't feel that it is as one-sided as you mention. Hers views are frank and unbaised and she is not a person to mince her words. The full- article is in today's newspaper. Please read it again. Thank you. -
When ah bian was first elected as president, china adopted the position of "ting qi yan, guan qi xing." listen to what he says and watch what he does.Originally posted by sans-culotte:So the problem here is on Chen Sui Bian?? He kept making provocative comments during his speech to provoke China.
The question is: " is ah bian just talk to gain vote.?"
ROC and PRC existed since 1947 and chinese from ROC visited China since early eighties, why is there a problem now?? -
Yap. Ah Bian was lucky to scrap through the elections both time. Taiwanese vote for him because of corruption scandals surrounding James Soong and KMT, not because they support independence. Like the Taiwanese say it is choosing between two rotten apples.Originally posted by sgdiehard:When ah bian was first elected as president, china adopted the position of "ting qi yan, guan qi xing." listen to what he says and watch what he does.
The question is: " is ah bian just talk to gain vote.?"
ROC and PRC existed since 1947 and chinese from ROC visited China since early eighties, why is there a problem now??
Wait another 4 years Ma YinJiu become president peace talks can resume liao. -
"Wat is the reason tat taiwan should be part of china ?" Obviously you don read China History like many Singaporean, or you are just one of those who interpret history according to your will? Go read the history and don't judge the history, and you will know why.
I thought I have given many summaries on history. Nobody had said it is wrong.."Ya ya ya....Now they r 2 different states altogether..." SAYS WHO? In the world today, there is only one china, it was ROC and now PRC!! Even the few money hungry states in Africa and the Pacific which recognise ROC, do not recognise PRC at the same time. Close to 1 million taiwanese now are living in China, so what 2 states are you talking about. Again, you interpret the situation according to your will.
I will be blunt here... everyone r forced to say one china theory because otherwise china is going to do something funny to them. Practically everybody r treating them as 2 states, even china. If u want to set up company in taiwan do u find taiwan Gov or china gov ? Same goes to china side too, if u want to build up a base in china, u find Communists party too. Wat decision making has taiwan done to china and vice versa ? Why don't chinese Gov go for election in taiwan if they r the same country ?
If china treats taiwan as the same, they would have allowed WHO to help taiwan when they r attacked by SARs...In the eighties and nineties, thousands of Taiwanese factories moved to China, and this enabled them to produce goods at low cost and retained their position as economic power house. So Taiwan knows the benefits of unifications, they have actually taken the "carrot" and are enjoying it.
It is enjoying the benefit of being capitalist bah... Is there any benefit to go to communists ruling for taiwan now ?Move towards independence is a mean used by Ah Bian to gain re-election as president and finally for DPP to control the parliament. Internally they did it at the expense of tearing the taiwanese society into two. Internationally, they are taking a risk with china, but they believe that China will not attack before 2008 because of olympics, and are stupid enough to believe that even if china were to attack, the american will come to their rescue. LHL took a risk with the sino-sing relationship to confirm that.
I agree about your a bian part...
But I don't understand wat do u mean by "LHL took a risk with the sino-china relationship to confirm tat" ? Confirm wat ?Pls note that it is not just China CP and its military commanders who would use force to prevent independence, the ordinary chinese on the streets are prepared to die to prevent independence; no overseas chinese, CP or KMT or no party want an independent taiwan. even at least half of taiwanese population do not want independence!! Is ah bian and his DPP acting dangerously against the will of the Chinese ppl?? risking a war for his political agenda??? do you now know why "...purposely add the pressure....";??
I agrre some people from the streets may fight when china goes independent. 1/2 of people on taiwan do not want independence, but much lesser people want to have reunification with china too. They just wanna maintain things as they r now. Why ? because china is threathening to attack them mah... If china now offer them a choice of independence without backlash, I believe the proportion will goes up a lot. Up the pressure = give people more reason for independence...
Maybe u should ponder why does he want to sell independence as a theme for his politics if taiwan people really do not want it. -
Historically, when KMT is still in power, they WANT to unite with China since they have always see themselves as Chinese. And the fact that Taiwan teaches China History, not Taiwan history proves this. If China had continue to negotiate with KMT, then things would have been much better now. Sigh....it may be too late now to win the hearts of Taiwanese people after what China has done to alientate the Taiwanese in recent years and they are still doing it further......Taiwan is getting further and further away now........
U r right tat KMT consider himself china because they r really a party from china. Yup..u r right about taiwan drifting further and further away... people aren't going to bow to bully tactics or undiplomatic means. -
I presume nobody was sure if all these pro-independence moves by ah bian was for real or just for election. LHL apparently went to find out what ah bian was really thinking about the issue.Originally posted by stupidissmart:But I don't understand wat do u mean by "LHL took a risk with the sino-china relationship to confirm tat" ? Confirm wat ?
He that this visit would certainly displease, or antagonise china! the risk is what china would do to singapore and how much singapore could lose.
LHL said after the visit that he was concerned that ah bian and his DPP were too engrossed in the preparation for year election and they believe that the US will come to taiwan's aid if china attacks. what exactly does he mean?? is ah bian's independence campaign for real or bluff?? Should singapore prepare now for the impact of a war in the Straits?? -
The one china policy exists not just because "otherwise china is going to do something funny to them". Before PRC was recognised, only ROC was recognised by half the international community. Realistically ROC would want to do something to those who recognise PRC, unfortunately these countries were USSR and other commies which were much more powerful than Taiwan, which had to under the protection umbrella of the US. Now the table has turned. Countries can choose to recognise two China, but do the two china want to recognise you? There is still one china, it is which one do you recognise. The only parties which benefit from a broken China is the USA.Originally posted by stupidissmart:I will be blunt here... everyone r forced to say one china theory because otherwise china is going to do something funny to them. Practically everybody r treating them as 2 states, even china. If u want to set up company in taiwan do u find taiwan Gov or china gov ? Same goes to china side too, if u want to build up a base in china, u find Communists party too. Wat decision making has taiwan done to china and vice versa ? Why don't chinese Gov go for election in taiwan if they r the same country ?
If china treats taiwan as the same, they would have allowed WHO to help taiwan when they r attacked by SARs...
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ROC and PRC have always recognise one china!! If they agree, outsiders pls stay out. As they always say, this is our internal affair!!! Don't kaypor.
"Why don't chinese gov go for election in taiwan if they r the same country?" I don know what kind of question is that. The chinese actually want to send their own taiwan provincial governer but obviously taiwan would refuse. so china says, i will let you play your own election game, as long as you know the boundry.
About setting up company, do you know that if you want to set up a company in GZ you don't go to beijing. Part of the problem with our Shouzhou project is that lee thought he settled everything in beijing and it would be happy ever after. He forgot the estate was to be built in Shouzhou. Even in the US, different states have different rules. China is also very big, u no, like the US, not like singapore.
ROC and PRC were on the way to peaceful reunification, there were cross straits discussions even in Singapore and they were beginning to disucss the 'San tong" directly link land, sea and air!! Then lee teng hui betrayed the taiwanese ppl and ah bian came on stage, then the war games.....tell me who we should restrain, as a regional player concerns about the impact of a war in the straits?? -
The Karen in Burma, the tigers in Sri Lanka, the separatists in south Thailand, the chechen in Russia, .....they all say the same thing!Originally posted by stupidissmart:......people aren't going to bow to bully tactics or undiplomatic means. -
I think the focus is already lost....
Questions here:
1) Is China supposed to take back Taiwan???
------ If yes, how should she do it without going to war??
How come Taiwan still so persistant??
Or izzit Ah Bian afraid he will lose his rule if China reunified Taiwan??
Or There are other factors like economical advantage etc..
------ If no, how come China still so persistant??
2) Why this issue has been dragging so long???
Shouldn't China and Taiwan settle this by now??
Dragging it too long will further harm their relationships..
Or because of America Interference?? If that is the case, which side is America on?? I know if America is on the side of China, things will be simpler, but it seems America is on Taiwan side. China will then have difficulty for unification. -
Even for HK, china is hoping that in 50 yrs times, when china catches up with them in standard of living...the unification will be more natural. Today, many cities in China are as good if not better than taiwan, and many taiwanese are in fact living in china. there are taiwanese schools in tong guan, shanghai....it was a status quo, in fact, there were greater exchange between the two places, until ah bian came on stage!!!Originally posted by stupidissmart:I agrre some people from the streets may fight when china goes independent. 1/2 of people on taiwan do not want independence, but much lesser people want to have reunification with china too. They just wanna maintain things as they r now. Why ? because china is threathening to attack them mah... If china now offer them a choice of independence without backlash, I believe the proportion will goes up a lot. Up the pressure = give people more reason for independence...
Maybe u should ponder why does he want to sell independence as a theme for his politics if taiwan people really do not want it.
"I believe the proportion will goes up a lot. Up the pressure = give people more reason for independence..." the pressure should come from inside, the chinese, not outsider. As outsiders, you practice your belief somewhere else, not at the risk of a war between the chinese!!!
The only party to gain from broken china is USA and singaporean who not speak like the yankee. -
Seriously? I think chances are slim that taiwan will reunify without a fight - even if china abolished communism and embrace democracy.
simply put, you are the king of the island, why would u want to start taking orders from another person?
It's difficult for taiwanese politicians to swallow their pride and become a local government, unless china gaurantee lotsa seats in the central government for taiwanese - if that happens, chinese politicians will find it unfair as well... -
mate,, you are really naive.. the opinion of people mean sth?? does it mean sth in singapore? do not be silly.Originally posted by stupidissmart:I agrre some people from the streets may fight when china goes independent. 1/2 of people on taiwan do not want independence, but much lesser people want to have reunification with china too. They just wanna maintain things as they r now. Why ? because china is threathening to attack them mah... If china now offer them a choice of independence without backlash, I believe the proportion will goes up a lot. Up the pressure = give people more reason for independence...
Maybe u should ponder why does he want to sell independence as a theme for his politics if taiwan people really do not want it.
again.. nobody likes war,, but it does happen.. for whatever the reaon, it does not mean the country starting the war is guilty, and it does not mean the other is innocent. that is the reality. war is kind of method to sort out our problem.. no matter you like it or not. and that is the final resort. i am not a fun of war, but understand why and how it happens. do not put too many moral standards into this issue.. as it is not relevant. -
that is stupid to say who is right who is wrong.. nowadays,, the power means anything.. i am not saying china is strong.. the reason why taiwan can take this step is taiwaness put a lot of expectation on foreigner. which is getting this little place into deep shlt. as chinese has suffered too much in the last 150 years.. and just get more backlash. i do believe this time,, chinese will resort to the final solution if they can not get uphand when dealing with yankees.Originally posted by Qitai:You know, I think the reason Ah Bian can win the vote is exactly China doing the stupid thing of firing missiles during the earlier elections. Don't they understand that this will only make the Taiwanese vote Ah Bian just for the seek of pride? Now that Ah Bian is in power, he is causing more trouble and China keeps getting manuipulated by him, giving him more support from the Taiwanese who let their false pride get the better of them. In recent years, China has scored a lot of victory when it comes to diplomancy (like Iraq war, North Korea issue), but when it comes to Taiwan, they did all the wrong things, encouraging Taiwanese to alienate themselves further from China.
Historically, when KMT is still in power, they WANT to unite with China since they have always see themselves as Chinese. And the fact that Taiwan teaches China History, not Taiwan history proves this. If China had continue to negotiate with KMT, then things would have been much better now. Sigh....it may be too late now to win the hearts of Taiwanese people after what China has done to alientate the Taiwanese in recent years and they are still doing it further......Taiwan is getting further and further away now........ -
Good evening everybody welcome back to sg forum.
No flamming tonight. If you want to do so please start another thread.
This thread is for serious discussion only.
Thank you.
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I presume nobody was sure if all these pro-independence moves by ah bian was for real or just for election. LHL apparently went to find out what ah bian was really thinking about the issue.
Just my opinion... first LHl don't have to go personally to find tat out. Second, A Bian relationship with LHL seems normally... nothing spectacular or something and he probably won't tell him much about the truth anyway... Tat is not much justification of his motives...The one china policy exists not just because "otherwise china is going to do something funny to them". Before PRC was recognised, only ROC was recognised by half the international community. Realistically ROC would want to do something to those who recognise PRC, unfortunately these countries were USSR and other commies which were much more powerful than Taiwan, which had to under the protection umbrella of the US. Now the table has turned. Countries can choose to recognise two China, but do the two china want to recognise you? There is still one china, it is which one do you recognise. The only parties which benefit from a broken China is the USA.
Actually in other words, before china becomes powerful, more than 1/2 of the world do not treat china and taiwan as one but treat them as seperate entities... Now china become powerful, he can either choose to recognise his policy about 1 china or else china is not going to recognise u as anything ? In other words... isn't tat doing "something funny" to force nations to accept one china policy ? I mean do other nations have to follow and agree with every policy by china in order to be accepted ?ROC and PRC have always recognise one china!! If they agree, outsiders pls stay out. As they always say, this is our internal affair!!! Don't kaypor.
ROC don't really recognise one china... I am staying out of the affair to be safe but just for the sake of discussion, I want to know the excuse behind it..."Why don't chinese gov go for election in taiwan if they r the same country?" I don know what kind of question is that. The chinese actually want to send their own taiwan provincial governer but obviously taiwan would refuse. so china says, i will let you play your own election game, as long as you know the boundry.
Of course they cannot send a governer over
They should send some representatives and start to pull votes or something, not someone to control taiwan as if it had won an election... Anyway tat point is to emphasis tat Taiwan and China r already ruling as 2 seperate countries, like Ming and Qing.About setting up company, do you know that if you want to set up a company in GZ you don't go to beijing. Part of the problem with our Shouzhou project is that lee thought he settled everything in beijing and it would be happy ever after. He forgot the estate was to be built in Shouzhou. Even in the US, different states have different rules. China is also very big, u no, like the US, not like singapore.
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anyway it is still under the jurisdiction of the chinese gov, not taiwan gov isn' t it ? I never mention anything about beijing...ROC and PRC were on the way to peaceful reunification, there were cross straits discussions even in Singapore and they were beginning to disucss the 'San tong" directly link land, sea and air!! Then lee teng hui betrayed the taiwanese ppl and ah bian came on stage, then the war games.....tell me who we should restrain, as a regional player concerns about the impact of a war in the straits??
Then keep trying lor... but just the "sang tong" is still far from peaceful reunification. Their politics r a bit more.. special... but to win the heart of the people, force just makes things worse... Tat is the right direction though, compromise with each other.The Karen in Burma, the tigers in Sri Lanka, the separatists in south Thailand, the chechen in Russia, .....they all say the same thing!
And look at the whole mess now. East germany and west germany is an example of peaceful reunification. Which is better ?Even for HK, china is hoping that in 50 yrs times, when china catches up with them in standard of living...the unification will be more natural. Today, many cities in China are as good if not better than taiwan, and many taiwanese are in fact living in china. there are taiwanese schools in tong guan, shanghai....it was a status quo, in fact, there were greater exchange between the two places, until ah bian came on stage!!!
Then u have played right into his hands by trying to force your way in. He purposely provoke u guys and u took the bait and strengthen his case more ! Since A Bian is the president for more years to come, maybe u can try to think wat should be done with the current situation."I believe the proportion will goes up a lot. Up the pressure = give people more reason for independence..." the pressure should come from inside, the chinese, not outsider. As outsiders, you practice your belief somewhere else, not at the risk of a war between the chinese!!!
??? wat r u trying to say here.... so u agree tat chinese r giving pressure to taiwan ?The only party to gain from broken china is USA and singaporean who not speak like the yankee.
Wat does singapore got to gain from tis ?It's difficult for taiwanese politicians to swallow their pride and become a local government, unless china gaurantee lotsa seats in the central government for taiwanese - if that happens, chinese politicians will find it unfair as well...
True. Tat is why I think tis should be a long process where time and effort need to be spend for discussion, not hastily decided with an iron fist... BTW they should have dealt with HK in a better way... it appears to be a bad example for taiwan in terms of democracy...nobody likes war,, but it does happen.. for whatever the reaon, it does not mean the country starting the war is guilty, and it does not mean the other is innocent. that is the reality.
Tat is why the person who start the first punch r the one tat get condemn while the latter get protected. Same as man and man fighting mah... who is the one tat punch first is deemed as wrong...do not put too many moral standards into this issue.. as it is not relevant
............................................................................. we r back to the age where the strong bully the weak ? I guess US democracy apears to be more fair and peaceful...that is stupid to say who is right who is wrong.. nowadays,, the power means anything.. i am not saying china is strong.. the reason why taiwan can take this step is taiwaness put a lot of expectation on foreigner. which is getting this little place into deep shlt. as chinese has suffered too much in the last 150 years.. and just get more backlash. i do believe this time,, chinese will resort to the final solution if they can not get uphand when dealing with yankees.
well.... tat is alarming... war does seem possible if the politician thinks like u.... If china is strong enough, will they conquer the world next ? china suffer too much in the past but it appears to be no fault of taiwan.... -
Ultra long post. Very hard to read. Next time please post bit by bit easier to read and for other party to reply.
Thank You.
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read slowly then....
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After finish reading...
Forgot what I want to say liao. 
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true,, current situation is alarming, and in very serious way.Originally posted by stupidissmart:quote:
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nobody likes war,, but it does happen.. for whatever the reaon, it does not mean the country starting the war is guilty, and it does not mean the other is innocent. that is the reality.
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Tat is why the person who start the first punch r the one tat get condemn while the latter get protected. Same as man and man fighting mah... who is the one tat punch first is deemed as wrong...
quote:
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do not put too many moral standards into this issue.. as it is not relevant
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............................................................................. we r back to the age where the strong bully the weak ? I guess US democracy apears to be more fair and peaceful...
quote:
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that is stupid to say who is right who is wrong.. nowadays,, the power means anything.. i am not saying china is strong.. the reason why taiwan can take this step is taiwaness put a lot of expectation on foreigner. which is getting this little place into deep shlt. as chinese has suffered too much in the last 150 years.. and just get more backlash. i do believe this time,, chinese will resort to the final solution if they can not get uphand when dealing with yankees.
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well.... tat is alarming... war does seem possible if the politician thinks like u.... If china is strong enough, will they conquer the world next ? china suffer too much in the past but it appears to be no fault of taiwan....
the war is not only possible and is becoming imminent. and for sure, china will become next superpower if not in the world, at least in this region. there is no exception that any superpower will seek more territory.. and expand its control outwards. Hardly to say America is doing better than china. The conflict between china and ameica, or in other words, between Chinese and Anglo-Saxon, will become dominant in the near future. unfortunately taiwan wants to take a chance of this.. good luck on them and all the best.
the suffering of china from those whites in the past will not justify china's would-be aggression on taiwan, but leaning into the lap of china's enemy will certainly put taiwan into very vulnerable situation.