My Views, Your Views, Lets hear from your side of the story.
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u better be careful then... if such actions r committed, not only will the US intervenes, if the reason is strong enough, even the european may get involved.. hopefully the number of allies behind tis attack do not match the magic number 8....
super power so need to expand its territory........ sounds like a nightmare, the begining of hitler or japanese imperialism....
but I guess tis view is only exclusively yours... I do not think the bulk of chinese will want a war -
There are a lot of material posted in the afternoon while you were away take your time to read all of them. You don't have to discuss about all of them since some points are repeated. Don't need to rush. Take your time to reply and digest the information.Originally posted by j28w32:true,, current situation is alarming, and in very serious way.
the war is not only possible and is becoming imminent. and for sure, china will become next superpower if not in the world, at least in this region. there is no exception that any superpower will seek more territory.. and expand its control outwards. Hardly to say America is doing better than china. The conflict between china and ameica, or in other words, between Chinese and Anglo-Saxon, will become dominant in the near future. unfortunately taiwan wants to take a chance of this.. good luck on them and all the best.
the suffering of china from those whites in the past will not justify china's would-be aggression on taiwan, but leaning into the lap of china's enemy will certainly put taiwan into very vulnerable situation.
Anyway both Qitai and I mentioned that if China's stand is less aggressive towards Taiwan, the people there will also take a more positive stand towards China. If that happens, it will weaken the support of Ah Bian and his move towards independence. Do you agree ?
I hope you can read throughly the article below carefully so I can quote some points from it for future discussion. Thank you :
http://www.zaobao.com/yl/yl501_290704.html -
en.. nobody wants war, or like war. just say this again. if the war will start or not depends on some conditions. so war is always used as last resort. it never has got priority before all other methods have been used up.Originally posted by stupidissmart:u better be careful then... if such actions r committed, not only will the US intervenes, if the reason is strong enough, even the european may get involved.. hopefully the number of allies behind tis attack do not match the magic number 8....
super power so need to expand its territory........ sounds like a nightmare, the begining of hitler or japanese imperialism....
but I guess tis view is only exclusively yours... I do not think the bulk of chinese will want a war
right now.. china is in the corner.. and i think america starts realizing it.. the thing is if american is capable to contain china on western pacific. and at what kind of costs. US is a country driven by interests. if this business is worthwhile, it will get involved. otherwise, america will stay away. america has got option, but china does not have it. i never believed those allies.. or international condemnation. they are just another bunch of countries, which want to get benefit from what is going on in the world. expectation on American intervenation by taiwan is the very reason for current dangerous situation. if america gets involved, it must get into this at full strength for sure, as china is not Iraq. Iraq does not have got capacity of spreading the war to any other countries.. even in the first gulf war, they tried to get isreil into the war by launching Scuds. if they succeed, and all arabic countries will get involved.. and it will certainly out of american's control. But china has got every method to get whole world involved. that is not what american want to see. since US is the beneficiary of current world order. or the chance of US intervenation is being considered by Taiwan.. but not china. china is just getting prepared for American coming,, as to the resistance from taiwan itself has never been china's consideration.
there are some similarity between china and the time before WWII of Germany.. and one day, if the properganda starts at full strength against taiwan, over night, china willl be in the right state of getting into the war. -
Please do not compare China with WWII Germany. The Nazis caused the deaths of millions of innocent people. Their ally the Japanese Imperial Army killed millions of innocent people in China , Korea and Southeast Asia.Originally posted by j28w32:en.. nobody wants war, or like war. just say this again. if the war will start or not depends on some conditions. so war is always used as last resort. it never has got priority before all other methods have been used up.
right now.. china is in the corner.. and i think america starts realizing it.. the thing is if american is capable to contain china on western pacific. and at what kind of costs. US is a country driven by interests. if this business is worthwhile, it will get involved. otherwise, america will stay away. america has got option, but china does not have it. i never believed those allies.. or international condemnation. they are just another bunch of countries, which want to get benefit from what is going on in the world. expectation on American intervenation by taiwan is the very reason for current dangerous situation. if america gets involved, it must get into this at full strength for sure, as china is not Iraq. Iraq does not have got capacity of spreading the war to any other countries.. even in the first gulf war, they tried to get isreil into the war by launching Scuds. if they succeed, and all arabic countries will get involved.. and it will certainly out of american's control. But china has got every method to get whole world involved. that is not what american want to see. since US is the beneficiary of current world order. or the chance of US intervenation is being considered by Taiwan.. but not china. china is just getting prepared for American coming,, as to the resistance from taiwan itself has never been china's consideration.
there are some similarity between china and the time before WWII of Germany.. and one day, if the properganda starts at full strength against taiwan, over night, china willl be in the right state of getting into the war. -
before i read sth about the WWII, and what was going on before Germany got into it, what kind preparation they have made,, in terms of industrial production, military equipment and propagande..German did that systematically. now there are sth similar happening in china now... just like if you want to get into a fight, you have to get yourself right into that mood.Originally posted by tspg:Please do not compare China with WWII Germany. The Nazis caused the deaths of millions of innocent people. Their ally the Japanese Imperial Army killed millions of innocent people in China , Korea and Southeast Asia. -
i am not judging the things on the moral ground. as i said before.. it is not relevant. just talk about the possibility.. as once the war starts, everybody will certainly be affected one way or other.Originally posted by tspg:Please do not compare China with WWII Germany. The Nazis caused the deaths of millions of innocent people. Their ally the Japanese Imperial Army killed millions of innocent people in China , Korea and Southeast Asia. -
do not disagree with you on this part. To me, even if LHL went with his father's umbrella, the people in Taiwan are different from those in the old days. What has LHL's visit achieved for singapore is still my question? May be no more open discussion on this matter is allowed now, to allow the sino sing relationship to cool down.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Just my opinion... first LHl don't have to go personally to find tat out. Second, A Bian relationship with LHL seems normally... nothing spectacular or something and he probably won't tell him much about the truth anyway... Tat is not much justification of his motives... -
Last post for tonight continue tommorowOriginally posted by j28w32:before i read sth about the WWII, and what was going on before Germany got into it, what kind preparation they have made,, in terms of industrial production, military equipment and propagande..German did that systematically. now there are sth similar happening in china now... just like if you want to get into a fight, you have to get yourself right into that mood.
If you insist on thinking that way, I can't stop you. But one word of advice if you are going to Europe or Israel which suffered under Nazi oppression, don't go around telling people China is like WWII Germany, producing military equipment and propagate getting into the mood to fight.
What is your opinion on the article ? -
in my opinion,, china was very naive when it getting into the international diplomacy.. they always had unrealistic idea while dealing with those western countries.. also as to the taiwan issue,, they made the same kind of mistake. and getting itself into such a awkward situation.. war becomes the only option.
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certainly i am not a big fun of nazi. they had done very bad things in the past. what i am trying to say is "try to look into the reason why war happens and how it happens.." unless you find the very reason, war can not be eliminated. and that is our final objective. just like the saying that human being always repeat the same mistake. Seems everybody know nazi is bad,, but when it happens it will happen.. by the way,, when Germany got into WWII, German gov got unanimous support from German people.Originally posted by tspg:Last post for tonight continue tommorow
If you insist on thinking that way, I can't stop you. But one word of advice if you are going to Europe or Israel which suffered under Nazi oppression, don't go around telling people China is like WWII Germany, producing military equipment and propagate getting into the mood to fight.
What is your opinion on the article ? -
How come u say China no good in diplomacy leh? Since they have 5000 years of hisotry they should be quite the good rite?
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yes.. china has got long history.. and has got longest prosperous times compared with other countries in the world. the last 150 years.. china has experienced the darkest time in its history.. sometimes, seems it lost its mind and proper strategy. probably because of the chinses culture does not work in current world.. at least does not work on those countries where white is mainstream in a society..Originally posted by Sudaimiki:How come u say China no good in diplomacy leh? Since they have 5000 years of hisotry they should be quite the good rite? -
".....more than 1/2 of the world do not treat china and taiwan as one but treat them as seperate entities..." Wrong, the world was split in their recognition of the legitimate Chinese government, the KMT's ROC in Taiwan, or the commie's PRC in Beijing. The world recognised north and south vietnam, north and south korea, but they recognise one China, never 2!!Originally posted by stupidissmart:Actually in other words, before china becomes powerful, more than 1/2 of the world do not treat china and taiwan as one but treat them as seperate entities... Now china become powerful, he can either choose to recognise his policy about 1 china or else china is not going to recognise u as anything ? In other words... isn't tat doing "something funny" to force nations to accept one china policy ? I mean do other nations have to follow and agree with every policy by china in order to be accepted ?
"...Now china become powerful, he can either choose to recognise his policy about 1 china or else china is not going to recognise u as anything." True, if you don't recognise the 1 china policy, why should china want to have any diplomatic relationship with you. If you recognised the Tigers as a legitimate party, do you think Sri Lanka will want to have any diplomatic tie with you?
"..I mean do other nations have to follow and agree with every policy by china in order to be accepted ?" China never ask you to agree and follow every policy of China. But the 1 china policy is a must. You have your choice, you can continue to accept ROC as the legitimate chinese government. This is what it is today, whether we agree or not. -
ROC allowing communist rep to stand for election in Taiwan?? If ROC recognise communist party, we won be discussing this issue. Anyway, if ah bian agrees, I believe Beijing will be glad. What a Joke.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Of course they cannot send a governer over
They should send some representatives and start to pull votes or something, not someone to control taiwan as if it had won an election... Anyway tat point is to emphasis tat Taiwan and China r already ruling as 2 seperate countries, like Ming and Qing.
Ming and Qing are different countries in the same China in different time on the same piece of land!! -
Originally posted by stupidissmart:
"??? wat r u trying to say here.... so u agree tat chinese r giving pressure to taiwan ?"
Yes, I agree that chinese are giving pressure to taiwan. You are saying that china should not. I am saying that taiwan better take that pressure seriously.
"Wat does singapore got to gain from tis ?" The US will gain a lot by selling more weapon to taiwan and using taiwan as an unsinkable aircraft carrier against China, something they lost since they were kicked out of the Philippines...... Singapore will have everything to lose, I don't have to elaborate. Do you think there is anything to gain for Singapore?
"True. Tat is why I think tis should be a long process where time and effort need to be spend for discussion, not hastily decided with an iron fist... " As I said in my previous post, the process had started and had gone on well until ah bian came on stage. If Ah Bian and DPP officially denounce any intention to become independence, then I believe things can go back to normal. Unfortunately, DPP has even designed a new national flag for independent Taiwan!!
"BTW they should have dealt with HK in a better way... it appears to be a bad example for taiwan in terms of democracy... " In HK, was democracy the problem or their future bleak? was it Tung Chee Hwa's incompetency the problem or the whole thing situational?? Tung took over in 1997. the same year of the financial crisis which hit HK together with many other countries, then the ports in guangzhou took some of its container bz away, macau airport took many of its business catering for taiwanese going into China, shanghai taking over its position as financial center, new and cheap houses in shenzhen continue to depress HK property prices, together with SARS and Bird flu, the HK people and its government are really having hard time. Blame who?? Beijing? or can democracy solves its problem? qi sin!! -
Ever heard of "preemptive strike"? is US wrong in attacking Iraq? no, if indeed WMD was found in iraq!! Anybody went to protect Iraq? Besides, the guy who start the first punch steal the initiative. This has just happened, not old age!! So is US democracy fair and peaceful??Originally posted by stupidissmart:Tat is why the person who start the first punch r the one tat get condemn while the latter get protected. Same as man and man fighting mah... who is the one tat punch first is deemed as wrong...
we r back to the age where the strong bully the weak ? I guess US democracy apears to be more fair and peaceful... -
Look at the issue the other way round, do you think ah bian could denounce taiwan independence for the sake of the lives of thousands taiwanese and mainland chinese? Yes, China is a big hooligan, bully, bandits (KMT used to call them gong fei) or call them whatever you want, do you think ah bian should insist on taking china head on, at the expense of the blood of the taiwanese??Originally posted by stupidissmart:u better be careful then... if such actions r committed, not only will the US intervenes, if the reason is strong enough, even the european may get involved.. hopefully the number of allies behind tis attack do not match the magic number 8....
super power so need to expand its territory........ sounds like a nightmare, the begining of hitler or japanese imperialism....
but I guess tis view is only exclusively yours... I do not think the bulk of chinese will want a war
How will an independent Taiwan benefits its people? -
you are the only person in here having plenty of sense, and logic.. like to read through your comments..Originally posted by sgdiehard:Ever heard of "preemptive strike"? is US wrong in attacking Iraq? no, if indeed WMD was found in iraq!! Anybody went to protect Iraq? Besides, the guy who start the first punch steal the initiative. This has just happened, not old age!! So is US democracy fair and peaceful?? -
Well.. the world is against US for attacking Iraq. But why no one go and protect Iraq. Well.... Saddam is an asshole. So, no need to kill our own people to protect an asshole.Originally posted by sgdiehard:Ever heard of "preemptive strike"? is US wrong in attacking Iraq? no, if indeed WMD was found in iraq!! Anybody went to protect Iraq? Besides, the guy who start the first punch steal the initiative. This has just happened, not old age!! So is US democracy fair and peaceful??
If US try to attack any European country, then you think people will just watch?
So, not a good example. Most of the world did not support the war. But what done is done. Cannot say because they are wrong, you can just leave Iraq like that now. But respect for U.S. has definitely fallen because of this. French use to be a stanch ally of U.S. Now, it is no longer true. -
Wrong, the world was split in their recognition of the legitimate Chinese government, the KMT's ROC in Taiwan, or the commie's PRC in Beijing. The world recognised north and south vietnam, north and south korea, but they recognise one China, never 2!!
U just prove my point. As I said before, the reason why people still treat china as one is because central china force it down people's throat. Nobody treat Tigers as the legitimate country because they r rebels. They do not win any voting, if they had gone in the first place and they practise militant way to establish control. This is different from china because it is KMT tat is the ruling Gov in the first place. In china case it is the rebel taking control of china and insist the main party to be under him. Frankly they do not practise diplomacy to acheieve reunification too.
True, if you don't recognise the 1 china policy, why should china want to have any diplomatic relationship with you. If you recognised the Tigers as a legitimate party, do you think Sri Lanka will want to have any diplomatic tie with you?
If u know tat there is the existence of north and south korea, then u will know tat without any pressure from any side, the world community will treat them as 2 seprate entities.China never ask you to agree and follow every policy of China. But the 1 china policy is a must. You have your choice, you can continue to accept ROC as the legitimate chinese government. This is what it is today, whether we agree or not.
Isn't tat already forcing everyone to follow his policy, whether is it right or wrong ?ROC allowing communist rep to stand for election in Taiwan?? If ROC recognise communist party, we won be discussing this issue. Anyway, if ah bian agrees, I believe Beijing will be glad. What a Joke
But the question is do they attempt to do it in the first place ? no, because china still think he is the Gov of taiwan and will not play the rules for diplomacyMing and Qing are different countries in the same China in different time on the same piece of land!!
Ming and Qing r 2 different countries. One is Manchus and the other is Han. Each have their own kings and court officers, and they never treat each other as being the same country. It is Manchus tat invade Ming isn't it ? Tat is why they had a war isn't it ? Please do not treat the current map of china as a referenceYes, I agree that chinese are giving pressure to taiwan. You are saying that china should not. I am saying that taiwan better take that pressure seriously.
Frankly... yes, china shouldn't give pressure to taiwan. But it is your own opinion tat it is to be done tat wayThe US will gain a lot by selling more weapon to taiwan and using taiwan as an unsinkable aircraft carrier against China, something they lost since they were kicked out of the Philippines...... Singapore will have everything to lose, I don't have to elaborate. Do you think there is anything to gain for Singapore?
I am not talking about US, I am talking about singapore. According to a reply before, someone accuse singapore of gaining something when war is fought between taiwan and china, which is false and wild accusationAs I said in my previous post, the process had started and had gone on well until ah bian came on stage. If Ah Bian and DPP officially denounce any intention to become independence, then I believe things can go back to normal. Unfortunately, DPP has even designed a new national flag for independent Taiwan!!
Then do continue on the effort mah ! As I said before, if u give pressure, then u have already taken the bait from A Bian and given taiwanese more reason to seek independenceIn HK, was democracy the problem or their future bleak? was it Tung Chee Hwa's incompetency the problem or the whole thing situational?? Tung took over in 1997. the same year of the financial crisis which hit HK together with many other countries, then the ports in guangzhou took some of its container bz away, macau airport took many of its business catering for taiwanese going into China, shanghai taking over its position as financial center, new and cheap houses in shenzhen continue to depress HK property prices, together with SARS and Bird flu, the HK people and its government are really having hard time. Blame who?? Beijing? or can democracy solves its problem? qi sin!!
The problem I am talking about is not the fiancial problems they r facing. It is china forcing HK people to accept some rulings which give the central china gov more control over HK. Tat is why there is a big demonstration against the ruling of tat law isn't it ? Tis doesn't speak well of 1 country 2 system...is US wrong in attacking Iraq? no, if indeed WMD was found in iraq!! Anybody went to protect Iraq? Besides, the guy who start the first punch steal the initiative. This has just happened, not old age!! So is US democracy fair and peaceful??
US had a better reason of attacking Iraq then China attacking taiwan. Why, because US is hit by the first punch from terrorists. Tat is why everyone agree Afghan has to be hit isn't it ? But for Iraq case, people feel tat US had given the first punch toward them now. tat is why there is such a big mess there.
At least US got a better reason of "self defense" toward a "evil" nation condemn by international committee. Wat is the reason china have ?Look at the issue the other way round, do you think ah bian could denounce taiwan independence for the sake of the lives of thousands taiwanese and mainland chinese? Yes, China is a big hooligan, bully, bandits (KMT used to call them gong fei) or call them whatever you want, do you think ah bian should insist on taking china head on, at the expense of the blood of the taiwanese??
He never announce going to independence yet. The politician understand tis situation, tat is why they never go independence isn't it ?
How will an independent Taiwan benefits its people?
Sometimes, face, pride and dignity is a very important need for a person. It is the same as asking how will attacking Taiwan benefit China people -
Go back to the day when the world recognised only ROC, why did USA and those in the so called free world not recognise PRC at the same time. Pressure from ROC??? Isn't that obvious!! What is important is that ROC and PRC both agree, and they pressured the world, friends or foe, to recognise only one CHINA, ROC or PRC, not both. If they agreed that this is one family and they would sort out the difference in time, then outsiders should not try to decide for them. Lets respect their decision.Originally posted by stupidissmart:U just prove my point. As I said before, the reason why people still treat china as one is because central china force it down people's throat. Nobody treat Tigers as the legitimate country because they r rebels. They do not win any voting, if they had gone in the first place and they practise militant way to establish control. This is different from china because it is KMT tat is the ruling Gov in the first place. In china case it is the rebel taking control of china and insist the main party to be under him. Frankly they do not practise diplomacy to acheieve reunification too.
If u know tat there is the existence of north and south korea, then u will know tat without any pressure from any side, the world community will treat them as 2 seprate entities.
Splitting the world is the game of the superpowers. USA and USSR loved to split the world. North and south Korea, North and south Vietnam, east and west Germany, but is that the will of the people?? Pressure from any side, each side?? Did they not go to war? Who were behind these wars?? East and west Germany would not have reunited had the great USSR not collapsed. If USA collapes then I am sure Germany would also be reunited. Now Vietnam is united because they defeated the americans. Looks like the world recognised North and south Korea will remain two entities, though there are the same people in the same family. They were split because outsiders treated them as two entities!!
For USA to remain the only superpower, they would love to see China broken up into pieces, taiwan, tibet, HK, the minority provinces, 3 provinces in the north east..... Singaporean should not speak like the judge of the world, or you will be treated as an american stooge. -
With what is china forcing everyone?? if you don't recognise 1 china, they will send an aircraft carrier?? No, if you don't recognise, they will just have nothing to do with you. Call that force??Originally posted by stupidissmart:Isn't tat already forcing everyone to follow his policy, whether is it right or wrong ?
Put it the other way, you want to have diplomatic relationship with China and you want China to also accept ROC as a separate country?? Ni shi shui?? -
Go back to the day when the world recognised only ROC, why did USA and those in the so called free world not recognise PRC at the same time. Pressure from ROC??? Isn't that obvious!! What is important is that ROC and PRC both agree, and they pressured the world, friends or foe, to recognise only one CHINA, ROC or PRC, not both. If they agreed that this is one family and they would sort out the difference in time, then outsiders should not try to decide for them. Lets respect their decision.
Does ROC recognise tat it is part of china ? It doesn't seems so now
Of course china do not want outsider to meddle mah... because they have the advantage if outsider do not care for taiwan. BTW... it still show the point tat china do force other nation to accept its one china policy.Splitting the world is the game of the superpowers. USA and USSR loved to split the world. North and south Korea, North and south Vietnam, east and west Germany, but is that the will of the people?? Pressure from any side, each side?? Did they not go to war? Who were behind these wars?? East and west Germany would not have reunited had the great USSR not collapsed. If USA collapes then I am sure Germany would also be reunited. Now Vietnam is united because they defeated the americans. Looks like the world recognised North and south Korea will remain two entities, though there are the same people in the same family. They were split because outsiders treated them as two entities!!
The reason for the war is because the peopel r torn between 2 ideology, communism or capitalism. In short... it is really the people who want to fight for their ideology sake. Korea was split because the war become a big mess where china and US had intervene. Now South korea has been wanting to unite korea again, and it had been through diplomatic means instead of threathening to war up till now. They even ask for other nations to help out north korea when north korea is in trouble, not denying them of help. Though it seems now tat ties aren't improving, but tat day korea reunification will certainly come and it is a method tat no one or nation condemnsFor USA to remain the only superpower, they would love to see China broken up into pieces, taiwan, tibet, HK, the minority provinces, 3 provinces in the north east..... Singaporean should not speak like the judge of the world, or you will be treated as an american stooge.
Maybe US really like it tat way... but u r giving it reason to do as such. If korea is peacefully reunited, do u think the US can do anything to them ?
frankly I do not represent singapore
u don't even know if I am singaporean ! Maybe I am from Malaysia, maybe I am from taiwan, heck.. maybe I am from china itself ! I only can say I am a chinese but from where or which passport am i holding, only I knows...
BTW, tis is probably my last reply for tis thread and issue. I think I have got my answer from j28w32 and others
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You should ask ah bian if KMT, DPP would allow the CP of China to come to Taiwan. If you ask China if they want to send a party to stand for election in Taiwan, they will say they would love to and have been waiting for the opportunity.Originally posted by stupidissmart:But the question is do they attempt to do it in the first place ? no, because china still think he is the Gov of taiwan and will not play the rules for diplomacy
Even in the recent election, DPP linked the opposition with communists to discredit the opposition, how on earth do you think any taiwan government would allow the communist to stand for election in Taiwan??? sorry, you sound pretty naive here.
We can wait for probably another generation, when the communists become less of the previous Maoist or Marxist Leninist communists. and become more captalists and socialists, and more Taiwanese grow up and study in China. The gap, in every aspect, become narrower, then china and Taiwan reunification will become natural.
Until then, KMT/DDP and Communists remain enemy.
If there were to be a war, let the war be against an outsider, like the Jap in WW2, which would unite China and Taiwan. -
I join in this debate to see if there are better sides of the story which I should know.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Maybe US really like it tat way... but u r giving it reason to do as such. If korea is peacefully reunited, do u think the US can do anything to them ?
frankly I do not represent singapore
u don't even know if I am singaporean ! Maybe I am from Malaysia, maybe I am from taiwan, heck.. maybe I am from china itself ! I only can say I am a chinese but from where or which passport am i holding, only I knows...
BTW, tis is probably my last reply for tis thread and issue. I think I have got my answer from j28w32 and others
On this subject, I am a Singaporean but speak from a chinese perspective.
Honestly I don't care who you are and where you come from. The info in yr posting tells me how much or little you know, your logic or the lack of it tells me if you have a point or just an argument, and your advocates shows what is important to you, objectives or compassion.
Have a good day. Lunch time now.