can't stand singaporeans who think they are ang mor
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Look,
The sooner most of us admit it, the argument can be laid to rest. Most of us in Singapore do not identify with China, nor do we consider us Chinese in the context of attitudes, behaviors, values and aspirations. Our general idea of Chinese is that they spit, talk loud, grab money in every way possible. On the other hand, we can never be Chinese because we cant even appreciate the nuances in a Chinese joke that requires one to be knowledgeable in Chinese culture, history and literature that is commonly known by a typical mainlander if he/ she has completed high school.
And no, Ma Zhu worship is a Hokkien tradition, not enough of a basis to qualify one as a Chinese.
So the question is, how do we describe ourselves given that we are in appearance, yellow skin and black hair?
1. Asianized Chinese?
2. Chinese descendents of a long ago diaspora generation.
Whatever it is, we must ADMIT that we dont know enough of our roots to qualify as a Chinese.
Then it comes down to: I am a Singaporean.
Oops! Define that. -
sigh, the problem with singaporeans - we are jacks of all trades and masters of none,Originally posted by LazerLordz:I speak English and Hokkien much better than Mandarin.Does that make me any less of a Chinese by blood?I think not.Mandarin was just another northern dialect back in the days of the Qing.
u wanna talk abt proficiency in hokkien - taiwanese will beat u to it.
Proficiency in english, probably a brit will beat u to it.
proficiency in mandarin or the chinese language, most peepur in greater china will beat u to it - heck, even my korean colleague writes such beautiful chinese calligraphy that it shames me (most koreans writes beautiful chinese characters) , i dun dare to show her my writing, which looks like a 3 years old scribble.
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I think the main problem is our history. Unlike Taiwan and Hong Kong, we did not get many of the intelligentsia class (Zhi Shi Fen Zhi) fleeing to Nanyang. Most are either merchants or laborers. That is why there was not enough emphasis on cultivating skills in Chinese literature and art.
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my apologies, i indeed meant mandarin.Originally posted by cunnibal:em, correction, i think u mean mandarin...hokkien is also chinese, so technically ur grandpas can speak chinese too
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what we have instead is Singlish - a rojak of all the English, Malay, Mandarin and dialects. Though it is not an official language, it is no doubt a language that well represents our unique potpurri of cultures.Originally posted by cunnibal:sigh, the problem with singaporeans - we are jacks of all trades and masters of none,
u wanna talk abt proficiency in hokkien - taiwanese will beat u to it.
Proficiency in english, probably a brit will beat u to it.
proficiency in mandarin or the chinese language, most peepur in greater china will beat u to it - heck, even my korean colleague writes such beautiful chinese calligraphy that it shames me (most koreans writes beautiful chinese characters) , i dun dare to show her my writing, which looks like a 3 years old scribble. -
Hmm, when i say ur grandpa speaks chinese, i meant he speaks part of the Han chinese family of dialects, in ur case it's hokkien.Originally posted by FireIce:correction....
hokkien is a chinese dialect
the "chinese" now, or pu tong hua/guo yu, some places call it Mandarin (which is not correct oso, but shall not elaborate)....is actually a Beijing dialect tt has been standardised as the common "chinese" in China as well as other chinese-speaking countries...
technically, not all our grandpas can speak "chinese", but can speak one or more chinese dialects
Mandarin or rather putong hua is derived from the beijing dialect for use as the lingua franca or official language of china, this is of course also chinese.
So u see here, when I say I speak chinese, what do i mean? do I mean i speak the official language, or any of the many dialects? the word 'chinese' is the universal set of languages, slangs and dialects pertaining to the chinese while mandarin, putong hua, hokkien, shanghainese, cantonese etc are just subsets of this universal set.
Well, at least that's what I meant and what I understood... -
sigh, this unique dialect of ours is only FAHAMable to 3 million peepur and can't go any further, therefore we have to know when to speak proper english, and when to speak a purer form of our mother tongue...Originally posted by skinnybeanie:what we have instead is Singlish - a rojak of all the English, Malay, Mandarin and dialects. Though it is not an official language, it is no doubt a language that well represents our unique potpurri of cultures. -
our culture is just like a bastard, thrown out by our parent cultures and left to fend for ourselves, that may explain all the oddities we see in singapore.Originally posted by Xprobe:Look,
The sooner most of us admit it, the argument can be laid to rest. Most of us in Singapore do not identify with China, nor do we consider us Chinese in the context of attitudes, behaviors, values and aspirations. Our general idea of Chinese is that they spit, talk loud, grab money in every way possible. On the other hand, we can never be Chinese because we cant even appreciate the nuances in a Chinese joke that requires one to be knowledgeable in Chinese culture, history and literature that is commonly known by a typical mainlander if he/ she has completed high school.
And no, Ma Zhu worship is a Hokkien tradition, not enough of a basis to qualify one as a Chinese.
So the question is, how do we describe ourselves given that we are in appearance, yellow skin and black hair?
1. Asianized Chinese?
2. Chinese descendents of a long ago diaspora generation.
Whatever it is, we must ADMIT that we dont know enough of our roots to qualify as a Chinese.
Then it comes down to: I am a Singaporean.
Oops! Define that. -
your thread started with you saying "I despise peepur who despise their own language and culture"Originally posted by cunnibal:our culture is just like a bastard, thrown out by our parent cultures and left to fend for ourselves, that may explain all the oddities we see in singapore.
And now your are saying "our culture is just like a bastard"
can't help but think you are contradicting yourself.... -
lol, No, no, no, my dear, that will depend on how do I view the word 'bastard' in this context.Originally posted by skinnybeanie:your thread started with you saying "I despise peepur who despise their own language and culture"
And now your are saying "our culture is just like a bastard"
can't help but think you are contradicting yourself....
If I View it negatively then yes I'm freaking contradicting me self,
however, I'm saying it as a matter of fact, it's as good as saying the sky is blue; whales are mammals; the earth is round etc. So, what makes u think I despise the singaporean culture as a whole? -
you gave me that impression cuz i don't see you commenting postively about our cultures.Originally posted by cunnibal:lol, No, no, no, my dear, that will depend on how do I view the word 'bastard' in this context.
If I View it negatively then yes I'm freaking contradicting me self,
however, I'm saying it as a matter of fact, it's as good as saying the sky is blue; whales are mammals; the earth is round etc. So, what makes u think I despise the singaporean culture as a whole? -
We look down on others. Then some others look down on us. Furthermore, we sometimes look down on our own.
Have culture will travel -
there are of course good and bad things in every culture, i may be making a seemingly negative comment on part of it, but still I'll have to say, it's my culture, whether i like it or not, I'm just not comfortable with peepur who totally refuse to acknowledge their own culture and start bootlicking/aping other peepur's culture. While these peepur think they are special and totally got class, I think they are a bunch of rootless vagabonds lost without direction.Originally posted by skinnybeanie:you gave me that impression cuz i don't see you commenting postively about our cultures. -
Chinese is in fact a general name for a group of languages: Standard Chinese or Mandarin (Putonghua, based on the Beijing dialect), Yue (Cantonese), Wu (Shanghaiese), Minbei (Fuzhou), Minnan (Hokkien-Taiwanese), Xiang, Gan, Hakka dialects, minority languages (Zhuang, Uygur, Hui, Yi, Tibetan, Miao, Manchu, Mongol, Buyi, Korean, and other nationalities)
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Diff people have diff reasons for not speaking Mandarin. I have a colleague who speaks English fluently and can't speak one word of Mandarin. When he tries, he sounds like some angmo trying to speak Mandarin. His father is Chinese, but was an orphan brought up in an English educated family (his mother is Portuguese).
His whole family speaks English at home. This guy doesn't even have a Chinese name (for some legit reasons), but ask him what race he is, he will proudly say Chinese (even though you can see he is not pure Chinese). He is just not good with languages. He took Malay as a second language cause he just couldn't cope with Mandarin in school.
On top of all this he has been living abroad (US, Canada and Australia) since he was 16, just came back to Singapore 4 years ago. His g'frens also all caucasians and he always tells them that he is Chinese (I've seen him get offended when one of his g'frens told him he doesn't behave very typically Chinese). Every day at breakfast we get to see him arguing with this Hong Kong Chinese who seems to think deep down inside that the Chinese aren't as good as the Caucasians. (Must be cause Hong Kong was a colony till '97... HK Chinese have been brainwashed too long already).
So how? Look down on this friend of mine also? Going to judge people just because they can't speak Chinese?
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Its very narrow-minded to judge the value of a person on the quality of his language, especially the language he was supposed to be born with.IF he is a capable, reliable and gets things done, I see nothing wrong with that at all.Perhaps those who are condemning it, are a tad more rigid and old-school in their thinking.Cultural purity?Sounds dangerous.
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Help you a bit here.Originally posted by j28w32:mind telling the meaning of "angmor", "wat", "noe", "peepur", "oso" ?? many thanks.. just curious..
Angmor = western white people. Direct translation from Hokkien meaning "red hair" or "red devil"
Noe = Know
Peepur = People
Oso = Also -
Just be yourself lah. No need to emphasis anything. People look at your skin color, make some assumption. No matter what you emphasis will not affect their opinion one. After a period of contact, they will know you as you, rather than just some people of a certain type of skin or background.Originally posted by Xprobe:Look,
The sooner most of us admit it, the argument can be laid to rest. Most of us in Singapore do not identify with China, nor do we consider us Chinese in the context of attitudes, behaviors, values and aspirations. Our general idea of Chinese is that they spit, talk loud, grab money in every way possible. On the other hand, we can never be Chinese because we cant even appreciate the nuances in a Chinese joke that requires one to be knowledgeable in Chinese culture, history and literature that is commonly known by a typical mainlander if he/ she has completed high school.
And no, Ma Zhu worship is a Hokkien tradition, not enough of a basis to qualify one as a Chinese.
So the question is, how do we describe ourselves given that we are in appearance, yellow skin and black hair?
1. Asianized Chinese?
2. Chinese descendents of a long ago diaspora generation.
Whatever it is, we must ADMIT that we dont know enough of our roots to qualify as a Chinese.
Then it comes down to: I am a Singaporean.
Oops! Define that.
If people ask me about my history, just tell them the truth loh. Grandparent from China, Fujian or Chao Zhou coming to Singapore at the age of 5 or 15 etc etc.. loh. Then explain that was grandfather or great grandparent, but Singapore now is very different from China etc tec loh.... no big deal. Often then not, the people from the other country will find this very interesting and ask more. You will soon realise how little many people know about Singapore anyway.
Anyway, history is a very interesting topic. Read quite a bit in recent years. The America History, European History and Chinese History are all rich and full of great stories. If free, why not go read some. It is a shame that the Singapore government find no value in teaching this subject broadly, since there is no economic value. But I think knowing the history of the world makes one appreciate so much more the current situation in the world and Singapore. If one is born in a random era and place, there is a good chance you will have to worry even about survival. -
em, if u talking to me, please do not only look but READ my previous threads, I'm gonna put it down for the last time in black n white: I look down on peepur who are ashame of their own heritage, their own culture and refuse to acknowledge their roots. period.Originally posted by Bloop...:Diff people have diff reasons for not speaking Mandarin. I have a colleague who speaks English fluently and can't speak one word of Mandarin. When he tries, he sounds like some angmo trying to speak Mandarin. His father is Chinese, but was an orphan brought up in an English educated family (his mother is Portuguese).
His whole family speaks English at home. This guy doesn't even have a Chinese name (for some legit reasons), but ask him what race he is, he will proudly say Chinese (even though you can see he is not pure Chinese). He is just not good with languages. He took Malay as a second language cause he just couldn't cope with Mandarin in school.
On top of all this he has been living abroad (US, Canada and Australia) since he was 16, just came back to Singapore 4 years ago. His g'frens also all caucasians and he always tells them that he is Chinese (I've seen him get offended when one of his g'frens told him he doesn't behave very typically Chinese). Every day at breakfast we get to see him arguing with this Hong Kong Chinese who seems to think deep down inside that the Chinese aren't as good as the Caucasians. (Must be cause Hong Kong was a colony till '97... HK Chinese have been brainwashed too long already).
So how? Look down on this friend of mine also? Going to judge people just because they can't speak Chinese?
Many of these peepur does that by pretending that they are very poor in their mother tongue, so I look at the reason why a person do not speak their mother tongue, I do not just look at the surface and say, " yah, u dun speak ur mother tongue, i'm gonna look down on u, fullstop".
There are 101 reasons why one do not converse in their mother tongue, so in ur friend's case, i dun see why should anyone look down on him? He is much better then any of those who refuse to acknowledge their heritage becos they are ashame of it. -
hmm, i didn't started out talking about cultural purity, my bottom line is, acknowledge ye culture and be proud of thy heritage. hey, why r u talking about cultural purity? that's out of the topic!!Originally posted by LazerLordz:Its very narrow-minded to judge the value of a person on the quality of his language, especially the language he was supposed to be born with.IF he is a capable, reliable and gets things done, I see nothing wrong with that at all.Perhaps those who are condemning it, are a tad more rigid and old-school in their thinking.Cultural purity?Sounds dangerous.
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don't judge the tree by how much fruits it bears, some trees don't bear fruits!!Originally posted by LazerLordz:Its very narrow-minded to judge the value of a person on the quality of his language, especially the language he was supposed to be born with.IF he is a capable, reliable and gets things done, I see nothing wrong with that at all.Perhaps those who are condemning it, are a tad more rigid and old-school in their thinking.Cultural purity?Sounds dangerous.
There are british, chinese, japanese, korean, indians, malays..... who are capable, reliable and gets things done!!! The question is, why are they called chinese, japanese..... . or is it the skin colour? then what makes the difference between malay, japanese......?
Language is taught after you were born, you were not born to speak a certain language!
How do you judge a person? it depends on why are you judging him! I will not judge my brother based on his capability, reliability and if he gets things done!! He is my brother because we were born of the same parents, even though he may be good for nothing. See the difference?? Are you a Chinese, malays....? not based on yr capability.
In the thread, we condemn those are not angmoh but think and act like angmoh. Nothing to do with his capability.
Cultural purity? no, is there a culture and what is your culture? ask yrself.
Rigid and old school? no, the british and her queen do not rule anymore. The american may still want continue the old strategy, i.e. dominate the world with english. No, it is a new world.
Dangerous? why is it more dangerous for the chinese to speak chinese then it is for the english to speak english? do we all have to speak only english to be a unified world? -
Beatens doesn't need Sporean.Originally posted by cunnibal:I really cannot stand chinese singaporean who act as though they do not have chinese ancestry, like the Zheng family of Joochiat - quote from old uncle zheng '...I dun understand mandarin...' and he say it with an air of arrogance - i know many singaporean has the same type of atitude and mentality, they thought that by denoucing their chinese-ness and by speaking their broken and laughable english(which to them is perfect), it makes them very ang mor.
Little do they know that they are the laughing stock that Ang Mors make fun of in their little potluck parties. I've came across these couple of American ladies when I was working in American club making fun of the way a singaporean auntie spoke on the MRT - for all u noe, the s'porean auntie may be thinking that "U see, I showed the angmor lady that I oso can speak English, wat!" without knowing that in actual fact, she is just making a fool out of herself.
I always feel that if you can't even master ur own mother tongue, or attempt to master it, and know your own culture, how can you demand respect from others? I'm sorry for the strong words, but I despise peepur who despise their own language and culture.
Dunno if this problem exist among our Malay and indian brothers? do u have peepur of ur own race who are like these chinese counterparts? -
In reality, billions of people in this world do not speak chinese! can't look down on them for this reason. We do not look down on ABC because they were born into an environment where they have no chance to learn their mother tongue. I pity them for their parents have not passed down to them their heritage and culture, including language. Compared to the ABC, I applaud the peranakan parents for they speak hokkien even after generations.Originally posted by Bloop...:So how? Look down on this friend of mine also? Going to judge people just because they can't speak Chinese?
But we are talking about people who first look down on their own culture and think everything angmoh is good. People who do not want to learn their own culture and language because they think english is better and is enough. Unfortunately we find many of such people among the Chinese in singapore. You don't find malay who don't speak malay or indian who don't speak tamil or hindi, do you? -
good to noe dat someone shares the same view as me, I salute u!Originally posted by sgdiehard:In reality, billions of people in this world do not speak chinese! can't look down on them for this reason. We do not look down on ABC because they were born into an environment where they have no chance to learn their mother tongue. I pity them for their parents have not passed down to them their heritage and culture, including language. Compared to the ABC, I applaud the peranakan parents for they speak hokkien even after generations.
But we are talking about people who first look down on their own culture and think everything angmoh is good. People who do not want to learn their own culture and language because they think english is better and is enough. Unfortunately we find many of such people among the Chinese in singapore. You don't find malay who don't speak malay or indian who don't speak tamil or hindi, do you?
btw, I heard from my melayu friend that the malay curriculum they learn in singapore is as crappy as our chinese curriculum. There isn't so much hoo har in the malay society becos even though they are not as good in their langauge as malaysians, they do not condemn their own culture.
Chinese is too much of an opportunist - so much so that some went to the extend as to disown their own heritage just to stay ahead. -
So the question is, how do we describe ourselves given that we are in appearance, yellow skin and black hair?
what do you mean by Asianized chinese? it doesn't make sense. chinese are asians, the biggest one actually. chinese defines asians.
1. Asianized Chinese?
2. Chinese descendents of a long ago diaspora generation.
this is my impression of singaporean:
1. "Ang mor" wanna be.
2. self-prescribed westerners in Asia and asians in the west.