PAP supporter with a great brain!
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http://forums.delphiforums.com/sammyboymod/messages/?msg=53332
Finally, someone with a functioning brain arguing rationally.
Pal...like many other rabid but misguided anti establishment types on this forum, it is you who should wake up to reality. Your complaints are so trite and rhetorical that it is standard operating procedure for any opposition party wannabes. But obviously, at every general elections..the people don't buy it...at least in the constituencies that are contested.
Your arguments are not based on facts but irrational perceptions. Let me try to deconstruct your bullshit:
1. Government is not social service. That's the trouble with you lot...you think the best and brightest will serve when they can do better elsewhere in a booming economy that was brought about by the correct government policies in the first place ? Yes there will be many incompetent and clowns who will be happy to be a Minister or MP for far less money..in fact for free even...since they can then go and raid the state coffers. Why do you think our government and system is consistently among the least corrupt in the world ? You are also wrong in saying the Ministers and top civil servants demand as much pay as top CEOs....check your facts again and learn how the gahmen determines it's top pay structure. Only small minded underachieving people will begrudge the money paid to the small group of people who determines whether this country progress and prospers...or goes down the drain.
2. Singapore is small, and it's achievements cannot be taken in absolute terms with far larger countries such as the USA and China. However in relative terms, in per capita terms, and in the short space of time since independence....Singapore has, in the judgement of many independent international experts..achieved what no other country has given the odds it has to overcome. Comparing us with China and USA is silly...we are not even in the same ball park. But in relative terms we have achieved so much more.
3. You are always comparing Singapore ministers' salaries with those of China and the US...and inferring that it is far more difficult to run such big countries therefore Singapore's ministers are overpaid. That's being grossly simplistic and ignorant of the responsibility of government. The US and China, for example..are far larger and diverse countries and as such present more complex challenges to run it than a compact state like Singapore. However, these countries also have huge resources and human talents on tap, and there is far more room for error and experimentation. China survived the ravages of nature and political diasters over the milleniums that would have long obliterated a tiny red dot like Singapore. The challenges are very different..and so are the problems. It's not a matter of which countries are more difficult to run..but whether their respective governments, over time, have made their country the best that they can be. In this regard, I feel Singapore has come up tops. Do not compare the essence of government to a simplistic analogy of which is more difficult or easier...is badminton more difficult than squash ?
4. Tell me, fool..which government in the world volunteers to share power with their opponents ? Those that do cannot invariably help it...they do not have the overwhelming majority of popular support to demand it. The fact that Singapore has a weak opposition cannot be simply blamed on government manipulation... that's the opposition's chronic excuse for their own mediocrity. Ask yourself, why have opposition candidates (and many do stand for elections) routinely rejected by the electorate ? Are Singaporeans plain stupid ? Come come...give credit when it's due.
5. The ISA is a bogey that our opposition uses as another of its many excuses for not performing. FACT: No opposition party member is or have been detained under the ISA for almost 2 decades now. The ISA is directed against subversives with violent intent, avowed communists, and terrorists elements. I challenge you to show which opposition member is under ISA detention ? Don't say Chia Thye Poh because that fellow is a hardcore communist that refused to renounce violent revolution...a dinosaur that has to be confined on Sentosa.
6. Wat tokking you ? Terrorist are and have targetted the countries you mention. No place on earth is exempt..not even the heart of Islam in Saudi Arabia. Yet have you ever wondered why Singapore has not had any terrorist attacks even though we are a strong supporter of the US in the region, with the US Navy frequently visiting our naval facilities in Changi ? You have our gahmen and its agencies to thank for that.
7. Government's duty to provide jobs..yes..but do you think our spoilt Singaporeans will take the jobs that are provided ? If they prefer to live under mum and dad's charity than go and sweat it out in the sun, issit the gahmen's fault ? The gahmen can only provide the fishing rods and the bait..you have to go catch your own fish...figuratively speaking that is. People not happy..how do you prove it ? Is there forment in the streets ? Do people throw rotten eggs at their ministers ? Or is it only just you and your many sympathisers on this forum ? You hide behind your anonymity and bitch about everything but do you have the guts to show your face and fight your cause ? Nahh..actually you dickheads are just too comfortable..Hokkien saying..chiak pah bo tai chi chor (full stomach with fuck all to do).
8. A Happiness survey..on this forum ? You are being stupid. besides there have benn numerous surveys conducted by independent organisations that gauges the contentment levels of various socities..we already know that Singapreans are far happier than many societies in the world.
9. Mao Tse Tung ? That man set China's economy back decades with his infamous Cultural revolution. Deng Xiao Peng ? He had the right ideas but he died before he can put them into practice, leaving behind a younger and more enlightened team to bring China forward. Remember, he was also the one who ordered the Tiananmen slaughter that though widely condemned at the time, nevertheless restored order in a troubled China that enabled it's rapid economic progress we see today. LKY was one of the few who supported the Tiananmen decision at the time...and he was, as usual absolutely right. Know your recent Chinese history before you flash names around.
10. A government serves the people..but the people also empowers the government. So if you are unhappy then come out in the open and help disempower this government....not hide behind your nick and take potshots. If you are not prepared to pay the price of change, then stop talking about it. Accept and be content. You will be happier for that.
11. You keep using the word brainwashed. That's a convenient excuse to deny reality. Can I also say you are brainwashed by populist opposition ideals, mindlessly rejecting all the positive aspects of our gahmen and society ? It is not brainwashing, dickhead...it's facing up to the facts.
Bottom line : you are probably young and frustrated by your own inadequacies...envious at the success of others..and looking for something to blame for your own lack of achievement. You have one finger up your ass and the other hand covering your eyes..and the only smell you are getting is that of your own ...[Message truncated]
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Edited 18/08/2004 23:17 ET ET by Swingstar46
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From: woe_betide 00:47
To: Swingstar46 46 of 56
53160.46 in reply to 53160.28
I'm leaving to explore opportunities outside Singapore. Of course, if I find Singapore still has some milk and honey that's ripe for the picking, I'm going to be there. However, like yourself, I'm also hedging my bets by maintaining the means to live in another country should things in Singapore take a turn for the worse. I don't find fault with your arguments about how the govt has turned Singapore to what it is today in spite of little resources, but I feel every Singaporean would do well to take a leaf out of the fineprint that appears on those flashy unit trust brochures: "Past performance is not an indication of future returns". -
things that i feel i disagreed about what you posted
1. i feel that the govt can do better, the pay of our ministers are really and obviously too high no buts about it, it has to be lowered,or at least stop it from increasing like the price of ciggys
and what are the huge numbers of minsters for? i thought a ministry is headed by one minister with ONE deputy, what are the rest of those extras for? they get the pay but they don't seem to be doing the work? are they trying to say what can be done by one minister in other countries need to be handled by armies of ministers here?
look, we have ENOUGH ministers to drown me with their piss IN A SWIMING POOL(a small one of course)
4. this i accept most of it except that why is the pap not creating a level playing field if that is better for singaporeans and singapore
why is there a need for people to "deposit" a certain amount of money before they can enter the elections and why is the sum of money so big?
are they trying to say only those of a certain economic class can enter the elections and the rest should concentrate on their work ?
i believe that as long as the canditates can get a certain amount of endorsements from the citizens that should be enough(like 100000 signatures and ic no's to prevent cheats)
and all canditates should abide by this and not suka suka can join because they have money and are in the ruling party
7. not everyone is getting the jobs they want and do you really think everyone wants to join a "cleaning company"
my dad was working as a technician previously , he liked his job and felt that he could keep going after the retirement age, but that was subjected to medical tests , all that bullshit's a sham
he was healthy and still going strong (as strong as any diebetic can anyway)
he went for a med test and was failed by the company doc , saying he's too weak to work, but then he said my dad can get a second opinion if he's not sastified, naturally my dad still wants the job and so off he went to a govt hospital to get another check up
this time he was passed by the docs there certifying that he's fit to continue working
but when he went back to the company doc the doc got pissed off and called the hospital and then my dad was told that his test there was wrong and he is still not suitable for the job
and so my dad's retired out of anger permenantly
btw my dad used to work in the pub for those wondering while i think this is connected to the govt
after decades of work there he gets brushed off like this how do you think he felt? so happy that he's released and now he can start cleaning the tables and roads?
and i've always wanted to throw something at a minister but i have never seen one other then on tv in sg despite my two decades of life here nor have any MPs ever gotten close enough to let me have a try
8.this is bullshit, we're content with most parts of our lives because most of us aren't going to die of hunger or of cold
but where happiness is concern, i doubt anyone can be really happy here, unless you're from pap of course, but even they can be lying
look i used to look at the emails they send up to hq coy in the ns regarding morale
its always VERY HIGHVERY HIGHVERY HIGHVERY HIGHVERY HIGHVERY HIGHVERY HIGH
but when you ask the men what do you think is the answer?
9. my recent chinese history has all been erased by the chinese govt over the taiwanese thats the only thing i can related to now even though it might be a ploy by LHL to gain support
10. i'm against pap next elections, my reason is very simple, i don't like LHL, his atittude, his face, the way he talks
so as long as he's in charge don't expect me to vote for pap
but looking at the opo, i doubt i'll be voting for them too
now if only we have a green party
11. i felt that i've been brainwashed from young to support the pap
but ever since i reached 19 and entered the army, i begin to question why is sg this way, why should we go fight on the battlefield during a war when we have an untested "paper general" sitting in the comfort of his chair in some secret HQ -
Obviously i could spend quite a bit of my time to rebutt u point by point, but after reading what you felt about LHL (highlighted in red), i have to say maturity really does not come with age.Originally posted by oldbreadstinks:things that i feel i disagreed about what you posted
1. i feel that the govt can do better, the pay of our ministers are really and obviously too high no buts about it, it has to be lowered,or at least stop it from increasing like the price of ciggys
and what are the huge numbers of minsters for? i thought a ministry is headed by one minister with ONE deputy, what are the rest of those extras for? they get the pay but they don't seem to be doing the work? are they trying to say what can be done by one minister in other countries need to be handled by armies of ministers here?
look, we have ENOUGH ministers to drown me with their piss IN A SWIMING POOL(a small one of course)
4. this i accept most of it except that why is the pap not creating a level playing field if that is better for singaporeans and singapore
why is there a need for people to "deposit" a certain amount of money before they can enter the elections and why is the sum of money so big?
are they trying to say only those of a certain economic class can enter the elections and the rest should concentrate on their work ?
i believe that as long as the canditates can get a certain amount of endorsements from the citizens that should be enough(like 100000 signatures and ic no's to prevent cheats)
and all canditates should abide by this and not suka suka can join because they have money and are in the ruling party
7. not everyone is getting the jobs they want and do you really think everyone wants to join a "cleaning company"
my dad was working as a technician previously , he liked his job and felt that he could keep going after the retirement age, but that was subjected to medical tests , all that bullshit's a sham
he was healthy and still going strong (as strong as any diebetic can anyway)
he went for a med test and was failed by the company doc , saying he's too weak to work, but then he said my dad can get a second opinion if he's not sastified, naturally my dad still wants the job and so off he went to a govt hospital to get another check up
this time he was passed by the docs there certifying that he's fit to continue working
but when he went back to the company doc the doc got pissed off and called the hospital and then my dad was told that his test there was wrong and he is still not suitable for the job
and so my dad's retired out of anger permenantly
btw my dad used to work in the pub for those wondering while i think this is connected to the govt
after decades of work there he gets brushed off like this how do you think he felt? so happy that he's released and now he can start cleaning the tables and roads?
and i've always wanted to throw something at a minister but i have never seen one other then on tv in sg despite my two decades of life here nor have any MPs ever gotten close enough to let me have a try
8.this is bullshit, we're content with most parts of our lives because most of us aren't going to die of hunger or of cold
but where happiness is concern, i doubt anyone can be really happy here, unless you're from pap of course, but even they can be lying
look i used to look at the emails they send up to hq coy in the ns regarding morale
its always VERY HIGHVERY HIGHVERY HIGHVERY HIGHVERY HIGHVERY HIGHVERY HIGH
but when you ask the men what do you think is the answer?
9. my recent chinese history has all been erased by the chinese govt over the taiwanese thats the only thing i can related to now even though it might be a ploy by LHL to gain support
10. i'm against pap next elections, my reason is very simple, i don't like LHL, his atittude, his face, the way he talks
so as long as he's in charge don't expect me to vote for papbut looking at the opo, i doubt i'll be voting for them too
now if only we have a green party
11. i felt that i've been brainwashed from young to support the pap
but ever since i reached 19 and entered the army, i begin to question why is sg this way, why should we go fight on the battlefield during a war when we have an untested "paper general" sitting in the comfort of his chair in some secret HQ
And frankly speaking, no one cares about your lao peh. He is only one individual, does not represent the whole of Singapore. -
my lao peh's just an example, what i'm trying to say is why can't senior citizens work after retirement age, and whats the point of the company doc, why can't they just say no instead of going in circlesOriginally posted by cooleo:Obviously i could spend quite a bit of my time to rebutt u point by point, but after reading what you felt about LHL (highlighted in red), i have to say maturity really does not come with age.
And frankly speaking, no one cares about your lao peh. He is only one individual, does not represent the whole of Singapore. -
I'll give credit to Harry for making Sg wat it is today. But I believe that the ministars mindsets must move with the times. Once upon a time, we were a poor struggling nation, fighting for survival in the most basic form. We had no enuff educated people, etc. Harry did what he needed to do.
Now, many educators overseas consider Sg population highly educated, albeit expensive. We have a lot of knowledge and can do a wide variety of work (tho not all, we dun have enuff marine engineers). The country has developed to be advanced and the population is much smarter now. The gahmen should cater to this new thinking breed of singaporeans, the way Uncle Goh did. Now I'm just waiting to see how Barry responses to people who question him...
I think Barry might not be able to cater to the new breed of singaporeans. He follows his father's mentality that wuold have worked against the commies and for a third world country, not present day sg.
The opposition is sadly lacking. The gahmen is not totally to be blamed. We do have an active opposition in Australia, but they are not allowed to meddle with sg politics, so they remain a voice in the dark.
When I was in the army, the person I reported to was so stupid, i fear leaving the security of the nation in his hands. He has a pri 6 education (whether he passed his PSLE is another matter). He is so fat he can't run to save his life, yet he never fails to tell us to keep fit. Our Generals are all scholars that spent their lives studying. They have excellent paperwork of course. Do they understand the grunts? Have they gone thru wat the grunts like you and i have gone thru? Or did they breeze their way thru a white horse company, straight to Scholar Coy in OCS, passed out from ocs to disrupt to study overseas and come back as a captain to serve?
To me, anyone who wants to be at the top has to go thru the bottom first, like Harry and uncle goh did. The rest that went straight to the top, I have no respect for them. -
Haiz ...... I tot I could just hung up my sword and retire...
To cooleo, there is no doubt about the contributions of the PAP govt to Singapore. But the picture you painted is overly rosy and it will result in complacency which in turn breeds medicorcy.
Government is not social service. Yes I agree but the politicians should not behave like mercenaries either. It takes more than a big paycheck to fight corruption.
Some people still cheat and accept bribes despite having a good salary. Bribery occurs when people people have the chance and their good sense to reject them fail them. Its overly simplistic to say that high pay will root out corruption.
I glad that you are aware of the fact that SG is a small country with a small population. If that's the case then the contribution of every Singapore counts.
If MM feels that he is still able to sit in the parliament and contribute to the country at the age of 80, why not any other SG Ah Pek who feel tat they are fit and still able to work and contribute.
I hate people who oppose for the sake of opposing.
But seeing people who agree for the sake of agreeing without thinking independently is really worrying. -
What talking you? The above points were taken off sammy forum, and was posted by someone else. I agree with what he said and thus posted the link here for all to see.Originally posted by tspg:Haiz ...... I tot I could just hung up my sword and retire...
To cooleo, there is no doubt about the contributions of the PAP govt to Singapore. But the picture you painted is overly rosy and it will result in complacency which in turn breeds medicorcy.
Government is not social service. Yes I agree but the politicians should not behave like mercenaries either. It takes more than a big paycheck to fight corruption.
Some people still cheat and accept bribes despite having a good salary. Bribery occurs when people people have the chance and their good sense to reject them fail them. Its overly simplistic to say that high pay will root out corruption.
I glad that you are aware of the fact that SG is a small country with a small population. If that's the case then the contribution of every Singapore counts.
If MM feels that he is still able to sit in the parliament and contribute to the country at the age of 80, why not any other SG Ah Pek who feel tat they are fit and still able to work and contribute.
I hate people who oppose for the sake of opposing.
But seeing people who agree for the sake of agreeing without thinking independently is really worrying.
As for agreeing for the sake of agreeing, on what basis have u formed this flimsy assumption? It's no surprise that u have been flamed quite often in here. -
Hmmm, then if that is the case, what is your proposal to eliminate corruption?Originally posted by tspg:Some people still cheat and accept bribes despite having a good salary. Bribery occurs when people people have the chance and their good sense to reject them fail them. Its overly simplistic to say that high pay will root out corruption. -
i think i have the answer! But its not an answer to eliminating corruption only, its to improving the system to make it more tolerant and balanced.Originally posted by CenturionMBT:Hmmm, then if that is the case, what is your proposal to eliminate corruption?
enshrine and re-affirm Total Freedom of speech against politicians. This is the only way they can be checked.
Establishment people are answerable to the electorate both during normal times and election times but its during election times things heat up alot because thats the time when power is transmitted, gained or lost.
Restrictions on freedom of speech especially during such times impede the awareness process that allows the people to decide.
If PAP dun like what oppo say. can always descredit them in a public debate.
Not by way of lawsuits in a Court. REMEMBER in an election, the Audience and the decision makers are the People Not the Judge in the Court.
The press must be liberated! The Press is the watchdog of the small citizen! -
cutting off of hand and stoning to death?Originally posted by CenturionMBT:Hmmm, then if that is the case, what is your proposal to eliminate corruption?
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yes..i agree..but i also worry backfire from the freedom of speech.Originally posted by Muse:i think i have the answer! But its not an answer to eliminating corruption only, its to improving the system to make it more tolerant and balanced.
enshrine and re-affirm Total Freedom of speech against politicians. This is the only way they can be checked.
Establishment people are answerable to the electorate both during normal times and election times but its during election times things heat up alot because thats the time when power is transmitted, gained or lost.
Restrictions on freedom of speech especially during such times impede the awareness process that allows the people to decide.
If PAP dun like what oppo say. can always descredit them in a public debate.
Not by way of lawsuits in a Court. REMEMBER in an election, the Audience and the decision makers are the People Not the Judge in the Court.
The press must be liberated! The Press is the watchdog of the small citizen!
where people just speak from their delight without hard evident.
i totally support the freedom of speech..but i really dont like the way of taiwan and HK style.
i agree with u , whatever PAP disagree should desredit the opp. in public debate. NO MORE GO THORUGHT LAWSUIT. we no more living in the 60-70s and LKY style of managing is out-dated. -
Agree with paperduck. I rather promote responsible speech rather than freedom of speech, U.S., HK, Taiwan, Philipines are models that I do not like. Their freedom of media also degenerate to agenda based reports which is not better than the restricted press in Singapore. In the end, what happens in those countries are that the media because equally powerful if not more powerful than the government. I don't like that. Have anyone wonder how that idiotic Bush ever managed to become President of U.S.? Don't want that to happen to Singapore.Originally posted by paperduck:yes..i agree..but i also worry backfire from the freedom of speech.
where people just speak from their delight without hard evident.
i totally support the freedom of speech..but i really dont like the way of taiwan and HK style.
i agree with u , whatever PAP disagree should desredit the opp. in public debate. NO MORE GO THORUGHT LAWSUIT. we no more living in the 60-70s and LKY style of managing is out-dated.
I would rather promote the transparency of government operations, decision making process and accounts. As well as a full report of major decision. Things like Public transport fare hike, housing pricing, COE quota, land sales etc. should all be made very public on how they arrive at their decisions. Then the people of Singapore can decide if they agree with those decisions. If listed companies should be subjected to strict rules on making public their accounts, why shouldn't the government statutory board be subjected to that too and in fact be subjected to even more strigent checks. -
but there are something i worry...let say about COE issue, i bet most singaporean dont welcome the COE. but there are need for govt to worry about the control of transport in our road.Originally posted by Qitai:Agree with paperduck. I rather promote responsible speech rather than freedom of speech, U.S., HK, Taiwan, Philipines are models that I do not like. Their freedom of media also degenerate to agenda based reports which is not better than the restricted press in Singapore. In the end, what happens in those countries are that the media because equally powerful if not more powerful than the government. I don't like that. Have anyone wonder how that idiotic Bush ever managed to become President of U.S.? Don't want that to happen to Singapore.
I would rather promote the transparency of government operations, decision making process and accounts. As well as a full report of major decision. Things like Public transport fare hike, housing pricing, COE quota, land sales etc. should all be made very public on how they arrive at their decisions. Then the people of Singapore can decide if they agree with those decisions. If listed companies should be subjected to strict rules on making public their accounts, why shouldn't the government statutory board be subjected to that too and in fact be subjected to even more strigent checks.
same to Land sales.people normally only see the benefit infront of them than the whole benefit of the country.
But if the govt let us pay high COE for car, i think they need to offer cheaper charge in public transport. MRT and BUS fare is quite high nowadays. -
I never say they cannot implement. What I want is transparency. Clearly stating why they need to do so, how they come up with the COE quota figure (I heard it is base on number of scrap vehicle + x% increase a year, but this is not publish I think) etc etc... the publication does not mean they cannot do what they think is right, but just making it clear why it is done that way. Let the people decide if they agree with those logic later during election.Originally posted by paperduck:but there are something i worry...let say about COE issue, i bet most singaporean dont welcome the COE. but there are need for govt to worry about the control of transport in our road.
same to Land sales.people normally only see the benefit infront of them than the whole benefit of the country.
But if the govt let us pay high COE for car, i think they need to offer cheaper charge in public transport. MRT and BUS fare is quite high nowadays.
More importantly, it is only when things are transparent, then we can discuss if it is good and the public can point out flaws and suggest perhaps something better. Without the transparency, there is no way to judge if those decisions are made out of stupidity, lack of touch to the society at large or if there are great wisdoms in those decisions. We can only guess or just believe in the rumours, since there is a lack of transparency.
The only things they need to be secretive about are only those that threatens national security (both military and perhaps some economically (like GIC)). Other than that, I see no reason for the secretive manner in which information is being handled. -
Pardon me, but u sound like a zealous student who has not been hit by this stone called REALITY. Wake up to the real world. In this world, u dun allow opponents to get back to their feet. Strike them hard and make sure they stay down. Do it thru legal lawsuits and we have a few fine examples in Mr Chee Soon Juan and Tang Liang Hong.Originally posted by Muse:i think i have the answer! But its not an answer to eliminating corruption only, its to improving the system to make it more tolerant and balanced.
enshrine and re-affirm Total Freedom of speech against politicians. This is the only way they can be checked.
Establishment people are answerable to the electorate both during normal times and election times but its during election times things heat up alot because thats the time when power is transmitted, gained or lost.
Restrictions on freedom of speech especially during such times impede the awareness process that allows the people to decide.
If PAP dun like what oppo say. can always descredit them in a public debate.
Not by way of lawsuits in a Court. REMEMBER in an election, the Audience and the decision makers are the People Not the Judge in the Court.
The press must be liberated! The Press is the watchdog of the small citizen! -
While it is true that everyone does that in the world . . . . . but err, on the otherhand it is not exactly right either. But what the hell, those in power will wish to stay in power regardless of whether it is PAP or SDP or the democrats or the republicans.
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I dun know. Go and ask origami yourself.
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Leaders should have high moral character. Unfortunately this is not the case. We can see it here even in this forum. I hope you are of better character compared to the other moderator....Originally posted by CenturionMBT:While it is true that everyone does that in the world . . . . . but err, on the otherhand it is not exactly right either. But what the hell, those in power will wish to stay in power regardless of whether it is PAP or SDP or the democrats or the republicans. -
Don't hang your dirty laundry out for all to see. Heard of that? Got something personal, bring it through the private message function directly to the person you wish to address.Originally posted by JusticeLegal:Leaders should have high moral character. Unfortunately this is not the case. We can see it here even in this forum. I hope you are of better character compared to the other moderator.... -
"I fight for Justice !!!!"Originally posted by JusticeLegal:Leaders should have high moral character. Unfortunately this is not the case. We can see it here even in this forum. I hope you are of better character compared to the other moderator....
nice sig? it compliments your moral values so well
anyway leaders are suppose to lead in any way possible to achieve sucess
not try and be monks
and i don't think mods are choosen by moral values, i think they got choosen because they're either popular, or someone thinks they can do the job
and their job has nothing to do with morals -
Originally posted by cooleo:
With the exuberence of blind innocence, you have decided to support this post as a master piece of work that blend into your own political standard of being an uncritical worshiper of the Ruling Party.
http://forums.delphiforums.com/sammyboymod/messages/?msg=53332
Finally, someone with a functioning brain arguing rationally.Originally posted by cooleo:
As much as there are rabid and misguided anti-establishment types in any forum (Sammyboy's Alfresco Coffee Shop being referred in the quoted article), there are also the types who behave as "carpet beggars" and "condescending arch angels ", who will turn a blind eye to injustice, inconsistencies, incompetence of the Ruling Party that forms the Singapore Government.
Pal...like many other rabid but misguided anti establishment types on this forum, it is you who should wake up to reality. Your complaints are so trite and rhetorical that it is standard operating procedure for any opposition party wannabes. But obviously, at every general elections..the people don't buy it...at least in the constituencies that are contested.Originally posted by cooleo:
Several issues have been pieced together to form a mixed bag of answers that seem to undercut the debating opponent but only to those who are unaware of the political history of Singapore.
Your arguments are not based on facts but irrational perceptions. Let me try to deconstruct your bullshit:
1. Government is not social service. That's the trouble with you lot...you think the best and brightest will serve when they can do better elsewhere in a booming economy that was brought about by the correct government policies in the first place ? Yes there will be many incompetent and clowns who will be happy to be a Minister or MP for far less money..in fact for free even...since they can then go and raid the state coffers. Why do you think our government and system is consistently among the least corrupt in the world ? You are also wrong in saying the Ministers and top civil servants demand as much pay as top CEOs....check your facts again and learn how the gahmen determines it's top pay structure. Only small minded underachieving people will begrudge the money paid to the small group of people who determines whether this country progress and prospers...or goes down the drain.
Firstly, the problem with the Ruling Party is their firm belief that Social Service is a "DIRTY TERM", and which explains for the wide gap in the Standard of Living (which equates with the QUALITY of LIFE) that exist between the Lower Income, and the Higher Income Group.
Meanwhile, the line is slowly blurring between the Lower and Middle Income Groups, as more households in the Middle Income Group struggle to make ends meet, when the bread winners are retrenched in their late 40's or 50's, and have to readjust their lifestyle - from that of the Ruling Party widely promoted SWISS Standard of Living that fizzled out quietly to one of any uncertain future that require continuous change.
The SWISS somehow remains confidently able to continue to cope with their SWISS Standard of Living, with High Pay, High Tax, and High STANDARDS of Social Services - all achieved with a LESSER PAID GOVERNMENT that is OPEN to all kinds of REFERENDUM that affects the future of the Swiss Citizens.
Secondly, it is quite tiring for the constant repetition by the Ruling Party and their lackeys, to treat the Singapore Citizens as IDIOTS, unable to discern the supposedly MANY incompetent persons and / or clowns and will NOT TRUST the Singapore Citizens to exercise their vote "correctly".
Yet, the Singapore Government that is supposedly corrupt free has seen one Minister committing suicide and one Minister of State jailed for corruption, several other ministers had quietly stepped down from office to take on the role of Ambassadors (exiled), one Member of Parliament took flight from Singapore - with the Singapore Government refusing to spend a single cent to track him down, but willingly spend several hundred thousand dollars to track the credit expenses and movement of an Opposition Candidate across the USA.
Thirdly, it did not take only incompetent persons or clowns to be in office to raid the coffers, as Singaporeans had elected a brilliant Lawyer to be the first Chief Minister of Singapore, and left office with the Government Treasury broke.
What makes you think that the present Ruling Party is not already "raiding" the Singapore Reserve ? Why is the GIC and Temasek Holdings not subjecting themselves to open accounting ? Why was it necessary to amend the Constitution that allowed the Elected President to have and to exercise some authority or power in overseeing the National Reserves ?
Fourthly, the Singapore Government has cleverly explained the need for the Ministers' remuneration to be comparable to "a basket of the top Corporate CEOs" - yet it was not announced that some of these CEOs are looking after Corporations with business turnover that are larger than the size of the Singapore Economy.
It would have been more appropriate for the Ruling Party forming the Singapore Government, to compare the salaries of the Ministers of Government of the top economies in the world, or of countries of similar economic size, or population size, or along such comparative lines.
We could have compared the remunerations paid to Government Ministers of Switzerland, Belgium, Ireland, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Israel, Hongkong, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Australia, New Zealand, Brazil, Argentina, Egypt, Thailand, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Mexico, Austria, Greece, and any countries with near similar characteristics in physical size or economic performance.
Is it true that "Only small minded underachieving people will begrudge the money paid to the small group of people who determines whether this country progress and prospers...or goes down the drain." ?
Or would it be more accurate that only a small group of greedy and over achieving people will never be satisfied with the authority and privileges that they have been given by the larger group of people to rule over them, and have decided to enrich themselves by way of 'LEGISLATION' ?Originally posted by cooleo:
YES, in the circumstance that Singapore had found itself in, the matrix of talented leadership, an obedient and diligent population, having emerged from and with memories of the hardship of the Second World War, Singapore was able to achieve far more than other countries in Asia, Africa, and South America.
2. Singapore is small, and it's achievements cannot be taken in absolute terms with far larger countries such as the USA and China. However in relative terms, in per capita terms, and in the short space of time since independence....Singapore has, in the judgement of many independent international experts..achieved what no other country has given the odds it has to overcome. Comparing us with China and USA is silly...we are not even in the same ball park. But in relative terms we have achieved so much more.
However, Switzerland is often cited as a role model for Singapore to emulate, with the SWISS Standard of Living being lauded as a goal for Singapore to achieve. Unfortunately, the Singapore Citizens missed out on the fact that the Ruling Party was only talking about the dream of achieving that SWISS Standard of Living, WITHOUT the SWISS Social and Political Liberties. -
continuing post:
Originally posted by cooleo:
Unfortunately, in the argument that ensued with so many directions being taken out, the fact remains that LKY had said that it is NOT CORRECT that the Singapore Ministers have created an environment for businesses to make profit, resulting in the Executives being paid remunerations far higher than the Ministers.
3. You are always comparing Singapore ministers' salaries with those of China and the US...and inferring that it is far more difficult to run such big countries therefore Singapore's ministers are overpaid. That's being grossly simplistic and ignorant of the responsibility of government. The US and China, for example..are far larger and diverse countries and as such present more complex challenges to run it than a compact state like Singapore. However, these countries also have huge resources and human talents on tap, and there is far more room for error and experimentation. China survived the ravages of nature and political diasters over the milleniums that would have long obliterated a tiny red dot like Singapore. The challenges are very different..and so are the problems. It's not a matter of which countries are more difficult to run..but whether their respective governments, over time, have made their country the best that they can be. In this regard, I feel Singapore has come up tops. Do not compare the essence of government to a simplistic analogy of which is more difficult or easier...is badminton more difficult than squash ?
Hence, with such attractive remunerations in the Private Sector, it will present difficulties for the Ruling Party and / or the incumbent Government to attract talents from the Private Sector into Politics, and with the talented being groomed for higher office.
While the ORIGINAL concern brought up by LKY maybe valid, is it necessary to formulate the Singapore Ministers' remuneration package, using the benchmark of the remunerations paid to the Top Executives of several large corporations with turnover similar to Singapore ?
As was mentioned, some of the US Companies selected, have turnover that is far bigger then the Singapore economy.Originally posted by cooleo:
While no Government or Political Party in Power will volunteer to share power, it is NOT UNCOMMON too, especially in a situation to stay in power, and to save their own butt by forming coalition Government - as is happening in Israel, with the Likud Party VOLUNTARILY inviting the Labor Party into Government.
4. Tell me, fool..which government in the world volunteers to share power with their opponents ? Those that do cannot invariably help it...they do not have the overwhelming majority of popular support to demand it. The fact that Singapore has a weak opposition cannot be simply blamed on government manipulation... that's the opposition's chronic excuse for their own mediocrity. Ask yourself, why have opposition candidates (and many do stand for elections) routinely rejected by the electorate ? Are Singaporeans plain stupid ? Come come...give credit when it's due.
The attitude displayed by the writer is typical arrogance displayed by the Ruling Party towards the Opposition.
The fact that the Singapore Government allow and avail themselves of total control of all medias, the use of the law, and all public facilities and amenities to perpetuate their own political interests have become so pervasive that this is no longer subtle any longer.
The Ruling Party conducts walk-about without Police Permits, while the Opposition Parties will be required to obtain Police Permits for similar walk-about activities; and with such applications requiring the final approval from the Minister - who is the Political Opponent to the Opposition Members.
The Asian mind remains cloistered in traditional and cultural hang-ups of petty pride, insecurity in power, and with little experience in the kind of democratic process of fair and unfettered adverserial politics with certain magnamity.Originally posted by cooleo:
Wrong. The ISA was invoked during and afte the 1990 election against the Opposition candidate Francis Seow.
5. The ISA is a bogey that our opposition uses as another of its many excuses for not performing. FACT: No opposition party member is or have been detained under the ISA for almost 2 decades now. The ISA is directed against subversives with violent intent, avowed communists, and terrorists elements. I challenge you to show which opposition member is under ISA detention ? Don't say Chia Thye Poh because that fellow is a hardcore communist that refused to renounce violent revolution...a dinosaur that has to be confined on Sentosa.
Who did you hear from that Chia Thye Poh is a hardcore communist ?
Just because LKY said so ?
For the entire period of incarceration, Chia Thye Poh has been demanding a fair and open trial, with all evidence and proof that he is such a communist threat to Singapore. Yet, no trial was ever given. Every two years, the incarceration of this poor soul is brought up for review by the Minister, who is from the Ruling Party - a competing politician of this poor soul.
Meanwhile, throughout his incarceration, Chia Thye Poh was encouraged to renounce his Communism, given the incentive of freedom by making a public statement to the effect of his mistake in being a Communist and advocating the armed revolution of the people to overthrow the legitimate government of Singapore. Surprisingly, Chia Thye Poh had steadfastly refused to make such a simple statement - that would have incriminate him - and decided that it was unfair to be accused as such, and preferred to remain in prison for over two decades.
Yet, despite the constant reminder of Chia being a threat to Public Security, and without receving any declaration of renouncement of his Communist beliefs, the Internal Security Department, and the Minister of Home Affairs have found him to be no longer a threat to Singapore, and over a period of five years granted him from some limited freedom to the present day CONDITIONAL Freedom.
Should the remaining pieces of immature, vulgar, inaccurate and incoherent writing by your idolised writer be addressed ? -
Come, join mi in CrocoLand... a new country and see how u build it up...
End of the day, intellects will still have to say abt you, say for u, and say against u...
Anyone here know Pareto's Principle...if u understand this principle, u might feel differently.
Best regards
Sir Dr. Croco
