You NEED a DEGREE to work in SINGAPORE
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In those cases, you are eitherOriginally posted by Medicated Oil:I am not saying that diploma holders cannot find a job.
But, I have observed that for some companies, the reason for not promoting a diploma holders that have years of experience is that they dun have paper qualification.
I dun dispute that some companies does recognise experience in a staff.
But, they will prefer getting pple with more paper qualification for the job.
(1) not capable enough and the boss is just trying to find an excuses
(2) in a big cooperation which actually has the stupid rule that only degree holders can be promoted (this is more likely in public sector or government owned private sector)
(3) have a mean boss who regconized your talent but just want to save $$
Solution - re-evaluate yourself to see if you have over-rated yourself. If
(1) Yes, you are not that good - then be happy and contend with what you already have, choosing to perhaps work not as hard.
(2) No, you are damn good - expand your contact, get the news out secretly, prepare to jump ship. No point staying in a place where you are not appreciated.
(3) No, you are damn good - Try to bypass direct boss and report to higher authority. Or ask for a transfer. If no one in the company appreciate you, then back to (1) - reconsider if you are really as good as you think. Go to (2) if you still think you are damn good. -
As long as you have good brains and good attitude thats enough.
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probably.....for civil service...Originally posted by Medicated Oil:I am not saying that diploma holders cannot find a job.
But, I have observed that for some companies, the reason for not promoting a diploma holders that have years of experience is that they dun have paper qualification.
I dun dispute that some companies does recognise experience in a staff.
But, they will prefer getting pple with more paper qualification for the job.
but it's a different picture and story for pte co. -
I have been to a lot of interviews and I can agree with you. The fact is that since there are so many degree holders out there, most companies will hire degree holders for perm jobs regardless of whether they need the degree or not. I also agree that eventually depends on your performance. BUT PLEASE REMEMBER THAT WITHOUT A DEGREE, THERE WON'T EVEN BE A DOOR TO GO THROUGH IN THE FIRST PLACE FOR MANY OF US.
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if u insist on such pessimistic view, it's no wonder u wun go farOriginally posted by Xenthar:BUT PLEASE REMEMBER THAT WITHOUT A DEGREE, THERE WON'T EVEN BE A DOOR TO GO THROUGH IN THE FIRST PLACE FOR MANY OF US.
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For the civil service yes. Not only do you need a degree, it must be the RIGHT kind of degree(as in those from NUS, NTU, or earned doing full-time on campus programme). You can forget about it if your degree was earned doing night classes at some private institution. Your capability at work is not part of the equation. Very rigid system.Originally posted by FireIce:probably.....for civil service...
but it's a different picture and story for pte co. -
i can't agree more with you! Singapore is ultimately a paper chase society where everyone's worth is measured by a piece of paper. Not having a degree means lesser chances of a promotion and companies are more disposed towards employing people with higher educational qualifications. People tend to look at degree holders in a different light. Whether you like it or not... that's how superficial society is... having a degree does open many doors... let's face it!
I have been to a lot of interviews and I can agree with you. The fact is that since there are so many degree holders out there, most companies will hire degree holders for perm jobs regardless of whether they need the degree or not. I also agree that eventually depends on your performance. BUT PLEASE REMEMBER THAT WITHOUT A DEGREE, THERE WON'T EVEN BE A DOOR TO GO THROUGH IN THE FIRST PLACE FOR MANY OF US. -
Engineering is a very specialised job. What polys cover and wat uni cover is very different.Originally posted by pqr:Being a degree holder nowaday may not be a good thing cos have u heard of boss not hiring degree cos they can hir 2 to 3 diploma or ITE graduates?
It really depend on what field you are in. Some must be degree or master, like research but engineering field often diploma or ITE is quite ok.
Like what others said, is your performance, PR skill that counts more after you step into the company with that paper. -
U forgot one thing...u don't need a degree to start a business.......Originally posted by Medicated Oil:From talking to my friends, I realised that there are no future for diploma holders.
If they dun upsize to degree, they will have to hata kake at their position.
What does the rest of you feel ???
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Its based on facts lor. The evidence out there speaks for themselvesOriginally posted by FireIce:if u insist on such pessimistic view, it's no wonder u wun go far -
Well, you can keep blaming and complaining and it will not help you. Or you can try to learn to market yourself better.
The reality is this - People gain advantages with these - good looks, age, sex, race, language you speak, education, contact, health, presentation skill, cultural background, family background, experience, knowledge etc etc....
You can cry foul and say you are discriminated becuase of your race, education, ugly, sex etc etc.... and drown yourself in sorrow
OR you can realize that none of the above one point overrides everything else. People look at a combination of things. And if your other attribute is good enough, there will be a place for you somewhere. And if your other attributes are also not good or just normal, then what do you expect? Either go and improve yourself in areas that can be improved or if you are really lazy, learn to lower your expectation.
And improving here is not restricted to getting a degree. You can learn soft skills like people handling ability, presenation skill, new languages or refine your language skills. You can also learn specialised skills that help you get employed or maybe even become your own boss like learning to make a great dish, learning how to repair TV, air-cons, write a book, IT knowledge (programming, building a PC, learning to use new software) etc. etc....
Education is at least one area that all of us gets an equal chance. At least, none of us is born with a degree in hand. -
I can't help but smile at the sensible reply that Qitai made.
While I sympathize with the frustrations many diploma holders have for failing to secure an interview because of the lack of sufficent paper qualifications, it is just as stereotypical to portray degree-holders as
"idiots at work. They can conceptualize, come up with good presentations...but cannot carry out anything bcoz they cannot get anyone to work for them...their socialising skills and PR farktup lah. Double standard...cannot carry out what they preach... " (Troy437, 30 Aug 2004)
It's simply a sweeping, ill-considered cliche to portray those who work hard in school to get to universities as incompetent, clueless and socially-inept.
I couldn't help but carry this illogical misconception a step further: does that mean that primary school dropouts also have a case against diploma holders? ("all these diploma holders all idiot lor! industrial attachment many, but hokkien damn lao ya, think they go poly waste time only!")
Academically, the same discipline (e.g engineering or accounting) is taught differently in the universities and polytechnics, in terms of depth, scope and focus. It doesnt take a lot of common sense to recognise this.
While a degree may open more doors, and secure the all important first interview, ultimately, it is like what many cool-headed people here have pointed out: it's the ability and performance that counts.
More and more people *around the world* are opting for a university education. This has stretched the operating budgets, manpower resources and facilities of many tertiary institutions including prestigious ones. These are regularly reported in international media (for example UK's Guardian Online under its Education column).
Singaporeans are no exception in recognising that a degree gives the holder a chance for a better life (improving lifestyle, self-fulfillment, more job security, opportunities to do more things they want). This is a reality that people who complain about their lack of formal qalifications should recognise quickly. It's pure naivety if people think degree-holders have an easier life at work and do not have their share of discontentment. Perhaps the fact that Singapore is a country with 4.2 million people crowded on a small land mass amplifies these frustrations, and makes the issue appear larger and louder compared to other much bigger countries. But really, which country's populace doesnt aspire to a better life for themselves and their families, or where materialism hasn't taken a foothold?
If diploma holders think they are being short-changed, there is no other alternative but to prove themselves (not only work performance, but in terms of training, certification and paper qualifications). Do something constructive, and stop whining. -
Imagine you got a high paying job and you're with a diploma.Originally posted by Medicated Oil:I am not saying that diploma holders cannot find a job.
But, I have observed that for some companies, the reason for not promoting a diploma holders that have years of experience is that they dun have paper qualification.
I dun dispute that some companies does recognise experience in a staff.
But, they will prefer getting pple with more paper qualification for the job.
And you stop upgrading yourself after being in the job for years.
Do you think you're deserving of higher pay for things you've not promised to show qualities of handling? I'll rather give the chance to someone as promising as a diploma holder who has the paper qualification. It is the basic means that the person has at least minimal knowledge of the next level of things they're handling.
Don't be absurd. -
I can still remember a slogan from my old school days:
"Education makes sense" (cents)
Continuous education will help you to be a better person and become more equipped to survive in this world. -
i agree too, i know it is to find a job too. and then i suspect its that the employers may have chosen a diploma grad over me. anyway what do you mean by finding job? is it a) finding any job that pays at least fairly decent (maybe 2k for fresh grad) or b) finding a job that one is genuinely and wholly interested in?Originally posted by pqr:Being a degree holder nowaday may not be a good thing cos have u heard of boss not hiring degree cos they can hir 2 to 3 diploma or ITE graduates?
It really depend on what field you are in. Some must be degree or master, like research but engineering field often diploma or ITE is quite ok.
Like what others said, is your performance, PR skill that counts more after you step into the company with that paper.
for me i think its hard to find a job in the b) way. what do you think? -
Well I certainly didn't sterotype degree holders. I just say they have a better chance. It just that not all people come from rich family with lots of money to support their studies. Besides many Singaporeans have many ugly mindsets! Take my case for eg. I am holding a temp and always like to work OT to save some more money for my education in the future. You know what the first thing they say to you. Take money from your parents or lend from bank! When you tell them you don't want to end up in debt and want to earn enough to pay it off. HA HA. You should see those people face man. The fact is that Singaporeans do not want to understand other people's way of thinking. Most of us like to follow the majority mindset. And they are always frighten if you want to learn more. I have only one thing to say a slave is still a slave. Chief slave or not. They think their position so desirable mei. Dream on. If they all so smart how come still working for people!Originally posted by Qitai:Well, you can keep blaming and complaining and it will not help you. Or you can try to learn to market yourself better.
The reality is this - People gain advantages with these - good looks, age, sex, race, language you speak, education, contact, health, presentation skill, cultural background, family background, experience, knowledge etc etc....
You can cry foul and say you are discriminated becuase of your race, education, ugly, sex etc etc.... and drown yourself in sorrow
OR you can realize that none of the above one point overrides everything else. People look at a combination of things. And if your other attribute is good enough, there will be a place for you somewhere. And if your other attributes are also not good or just normal, then what do you expect? Either go and improve yourself in areas that can be improved or if you are really lazy, learn to lower your expectation.
And improving here is not restricted to getting a degree. You can learn soft skills like people handling ability, presenation skill, new languages or refine your language skills. You can also learn specialised skills that help you get employed or maybe even become your own boss like learning to make a great dish, learning how to repair TV, air-cons, write a book, IT knowledge (programming, building a PC, learning to use new software) etc. etc....
Education is at least one area that all of us gets an equal chance. At least, none of us is born with a degree in hand. -
well, lets face it, people slog through 3-4 yrs in a uni, 2 yrs in A levels. a total of 5-6 yrs of tertiary education, due credit should be given, not to forget its much much much more expensive to go through a 3 yr in a uni than 3 yr in poly.
it is true there are many degree holders out there but do realise that it isn't really dat easy to get a degree and its not an overnight thing, people slog through uni to get dat piece of paper. maybe its easy to get into uni, but getting out of it with decent grades aren't, at least for ntu. go ask ard, see how many people flunk subjects even in year 1 sem 1. many poly students who came in, direct-entry yr 2 will find it much harder to cope...now u see the difference between poly and uni although both are tertiary education. poly is more into lab work, not much emphasis on maths etc, dats why when those poly people come to ntu, they are really lost cos they did not learn what those A level people learn while in JC.
having a degree will more or less give u an job that will make u just 'rich' enough to take care of ur needs and stuff like dat. it doesn't really make u earn big bucks. not having a degree doesn't mean u will starve to death either. in singapore, as long as u are willing to work, u won't starve.
having a good education enables u to have a safety net, as u can use the cert to go find jobs even if ur entrepeneur path fails. but if u have no cert and ur entrepeneur path fails, u are in big trouble if u have nothing to promote urself to others.
i know many friends who wanna make it big via MLM etc, came to approach me but realised dat i actually knew more than them...then they asked me 'why didn't u continue with MLM' and such stuff....as far as i know, they are still 'marching on the spot' in the MLM thingy, they could have progressed but they didn't as all they want is $$$$, there is no personal commitment, no interest, no nothing, they want and hope others do the work and they reap the profits like wat those MLM people tell them. if dat works, nobody will be slogging like hell. MLM is fine and will work if u are hardworking and have gd contact network but don't really pin too high hopes on it cos there are only a few M people staying here and there are thousands of similar agents in 1 MLM....
the problem is alot of people see the newspaper, see dis person made it big, see dat person made it big and they will think they can do it too. wat they fail to realise is dat opportunity and 'contact network' is very important. if u have the right contact, u will be able to have a headstart in your path. most importantly is dat u must be enthu abt it, no point following others into some MLM just because so and so made it big etc....if u are only into making $, u won't last long, dats wat i observed in 10/10 cases...sad to say.
i know a friend who opened 2 toy stores, one is in Suntec. he told me he went to Japan to source for novelty stuff a few yrs, and he met luckily someone who taught him the ropes in 3 weeks and introduced him to some suppliers, if he didn't meet him, he told me it would take a few yrs and thousands and thousands of $ wasted just to learn the ropes. -
A change in topic
You NEED a DEGREE to earn more $$$ in SINGAPORE?
SAY!
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not really, u can always strike 4D or even better Big Sweep....if u strike once ever month, i think really bo beh zhaoOriginally posted by BestAgt:A change in topic
You NEED a DEGREE to earn more $$$ in SINGAPORE?
SAY! -
You don't NEED a degree to work in Singapore... but u need a degree to go further...
personal view. -
Just ignore those people. Why let those people affect you. Like you said, it is not as if they are doing well themselves. If you need advise, get it from those who have done it, not those who failed to achieve. Those who did not achieve gives good advise on what to avoid, but not necessarily what to do best.Originally posted by Xenthar:Well I certainly didn't sterotype degree holders. I just say they have a better chance. It just that not all people come from rich family with lots of money to support their studies. Besides many Singaporeans have many ugly mindsets! Take my case for eg. I am holding a temp and always like to work OT to save some more money for my education in the future. You know what the first thing they say to you. Take money from your parents or lend from bank! When you tell them you don't want to end up in debt and want to earn enough to pay it off. HA HA. You should see those people face man. The fact is that Singaporeans do not want to understand other people's way of thinking. Most of us like to follow the majority mindset. And they are always frighten if you want to learn more. I have only one thing to say a slave is still a slave. Chief slave or not. They think their position so desirable mei. Dream on. If they all so smart how come still working for people!
You can get a degree even if you are poor. I have done it. I pretty much paid for my degree myself by giving tuition everyday after school while I was in University. I loan the maximum allowed from bank and my father paid for whatever is left that cannot be covered by the bank and myself. It is not a shame to borrow $$ for a degree. Most of us should be able to use CPF $$ (if not already spend into housing) and bank loans to cover a significant percentage of the cost, if not all of it. And don't worry about the borrowing, it is well worth it, both in terms of employability as well as learning. I used to be very upset each time I looked at the $$ I owe the bank. But looking back, it is really not a big deal.
Additionally, note that degree is not the only path to success. There are so many ways to success, degree is just the most common and proven. Key is to pick up skills and knowledge that you can eventually sell yourself. This can even be as simple as being know how to cook or just having a good personality that people likes. Even degree holders needs the other skills to get far. I have seen degree holders who are still stuck with <$2,000 salary after a few years of work. -
sigh... grow up lah... slave is slave?Originally posted by Xenthar:The fact is that Singaporeans do not want to understand other people's way of thinking. Most of us like to follow the majority mindset. And they are always frighten if you want to learn more. I have only one thing to say a slave is still a slave. Chief slave or not. They think their position so desirable mei. Dream on. If they all so smart how come still working for people!
who would choose to be a bald headed man if he has hair???
who would rather be a wage-slave if they have better opportunities?
as we work longer, u find that your personal responsibilities increase... u got gf, or maybe even wife and kids... all these costs money... flat, car, life in general... all costs money...
its not that pple are contented... but once stuck there, they can't afford to take risks... they can only kuai kuai slave away to support the family. the mindset changes.
u can only study, upgrade and take all your money and try to start a business when u are young and free from all these... tell the gov't to go fly kite... its not as easy as they think...
as for uni grads who are in debt, hey, as Qitai mentioned, welcome to the club! i think most of us borrowed money to pay for fees... its xiong... at its worse, i was working 3 jobs while putting myself through uni... parents hit a rough spot so i had to find money to cover 100% of my expenses and the cash portion of my fees...
now, i still don't have a fantastic job that pays tons of money... my poly friends who started work earlier earns more than me now
do i resent them? do i blame myself? what the F for? just sit tight and find a better job lor...
degree or no degree, its ultimately how u sell yourself... some jobs may be closed to a non-degree holder, but the economy doesn't revolve around those few jobs anyway... incidentally, i know many deg holders who are unemployed now... their qualifications worked against them... they are overqualified for entry level dip jobs, but underqualified for management level... no experience... so how? suck thumb also...
its not better or worse... its just different. -
so does that means it's just plain stupid to go get a degree? since it seems that being good in ur study is absolutely useless to ur work next time...Originally posted by tspg:I dun have a degree. I dun think thats a problem. Its the ability of the person that counts. Having a degree shows that a person is good at studying. It doesnt mean that the person will do as well at work or solving problems. I've seen degree holders who become so brain-dead after so much studying that they cannot solve simple problems. -
aiya again, its how u look at it lor... definitely, the old model of "study hard, get a degree and get a good job" is not true anymore...Originally posted by UandMe:so does that means it's just plain stupid to go get a degree? since it seems that being good in ur study is absolutely useless to ur work next time...
now even with a good degree, may not be able to get an entry level gov't job... 3% HR budget cut... gov't hiring less and less.
so if got the opportunity of a lifetime comes your way, like... to start a business or something, may not be a bad idea to put studies on hold and go for it... (oh and i dun mean MLM ok )
and even with a degree, the real good opportunities and money only comes if u got the right experience and the right opportunities... network very important also... so many pple got degree... why is one degree holder different and better than the other? most importantly is also how u sell yourself...
so its not an issue of paper = success... there are many factors lor... having only one of anything simply does not work.