DEFINITION OF TRUE DEMOCRACY
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A system that tries to promote elites has got all the elites in troubles from insider trading to CBT in one instance after another. Obviously the leaders have forgotten something very important than elites and intellect - morality and EQ.Originally posted by archon1234:From the recent devleopment at Sg, we can see that there are several "incidents" that pointed out our hidden weaknesses:
1) Citiraya scandals that involved many high position Sg executives in many MNCs. This also exposed the weakness of our banking sector control mechanisms. The CAO incident further proven the point. All our honesty image had gone down the drain after so many years of effort. There is simply too little transparency in our system.
2) Poor education system. Now Sg media finally bring the spot light to the young singaporean. The new generation singaporean are really too open in sex but too poorly educated in protecting themselves. They only care for having fun; in the end many young boy & gals had kenna STD liao.
The most important criterion is not scholars or meritocracy. It is corporate accountability and setting of personal example among the leaders so that everyone in society will contribute in a more acceptable manner and not helping themselves to dig as much as possible for their own benefits and private enrichments. NKF is just the tip of the iceberg. If all care to look there will be more abuses and malpractices that the two cases you mentioned.
Has our system of meritocracy or leadership imparted the right value and succeeded in nation building despite all the hype about leadership and talents of those in charge ?Just look at the young kids around your neighbourhood, how many of your young neighbours bother to say "hello" to u. This gen of Singaporean too self centred (or "performance oriented" in gov word), they do not usually see the importance of "Guan Xi". Worst of all, the school kids nowadays are more daring, sometimes even dare to challenge their teachers to one-on-one duel. Female students made false report on their teachers molesting them!!
So the young just looks at the leaders and what they say every day in the media - dog-eat-dog society with elites taking all and laughing all the way to the bank. People and people problems are pushed away by all the look-good rhetorics without solutions.
What will the young learn the right way - humility and service to the nation or care for the poor and needy?3) NKF case. I agreed that Mr Durrai should get a decent pay for running NKF. But not to the extend that drawing $600K yearly payout, with golden tap in personal toilet. It is sad to learnt now that NKF actually spend more than 40% of the budget on staff pay-roll, rather than supporting the needy.
The elites are promoted to absurdity of collecting handsome rewards while the poor and needy continue to be trampled under fallacious policies about reserve and talents. These are the real lessons learned from the NKF. Because of malpractices and potential crimes, there is no alternative but to conduct public inquiry. Why wait until problems become uncontrollable before taking actions in so many cases? The simple solutions is to be proactive and put in the right ministers who are problems solvers to crack at all the problems and dig up all the worms.
4) Our most talented young grads are more interested to get involved in the working out the stock trading options, rather than working hard to set-up a successful business in IT or life science. We can see alot of dynamic young people in Taiwan, HK and Korea, involving setting up new business ventures at high tech sectors such as IT, Chip Design, Life Science. Thus, this explain how come Singapore is losing her competitive edge in attracting new FDI in manufacturing sector. -
erpzOriginally posted by Elfred:In hundreds or thousands' time, MM himself would be legendary.
Probably some people who picked up my talk-cock thousands of years later would make me legendary too.
Elfred,
1) What I meant by "legendary" was more "mythical". While Liu may have existec according to historical records, the existence of Ge Liang (in case u forgot, Zhu is his surname, not Liang) is much placed in doubt.
At least, in the case of LKY, his biodata, records of achievement and biography would probably be preserved for many millenia to come, provided of course that Singapore survives as a country.
2)
the pikamaster -
We are trying to build an inclusive and cosmopolitan society according to our PM Lee.
To do so, certain basic principles and guidelines should be settled in advanced with citizens.
For example should the government remain claustrophobic like before - afraid of citizens speaking up on wrongdoings, or political views different from theirs or using the big axe on the whole citizenry to deter potential mischief by a few.
It will be paranoid to pre-judge what will behavior of a small group of people lead to by overreactions like in the "White Elephant placards" case.
If this basic principle to open up in an internet age cannot be understood, how could government open up and build a cosmopolitan society. -
agreed +1Originally posted by robertteh:We are trying to build an inclusive and cosmopolitan society according to our PM Lee.
To do so, certain basic principles and guidelines should be settled in advanced with citizens.
For example should the government remain claustrophobic like before - afraid of citizens speaking up on wrongdoings, or political views different from theirs or using the big axe on the whole citizenry to deter potential mischief by a few.
It will be paranoid to pre-judge what will behavior of a small group of people lead to by overreactions like in the "White Elephant placards" case.
If this basic principle to open up in an internet age cannot be understood, how could government open up and build a cosmopolitan society.
btw, what is the format of email when u write in to the press?
the pikamaster -
The press knows about the problems facing the country. However, it is of not much use to email them as there is nothing it can do because it is prohibited to pursue "crusading jounalism". (now what is crusading journalism anyway)
Editors and jounalists were replaced from time to tiem. One journalist has posted here in this forum. So no one will take a chance to write what they feel is the truth.
The worse is it will not admit its lack of moral courage to write the truth. So the only way the press can report is to write good stories and justifications to explain away problems.
This is the most serious of all problems facing our society as without truths, the whole populations are deprived of ideas and practical creativity the wherewithal of entrepreneurship and vibrancy. -
Nope. LKY will become mythical as well. I knew what you were saying, no worry.Originally posted by pikamaster:erpz Elfred,
1) What I meant by "legendary" was more "mythical". While Liu may have existec according to historical records, the existence of Ge Liang (in case u forgot, Zhu is his surname, not Liang) is much placed in doubt.
At least, in the case of LKY, his biodata, records of achievement and biography would probably be preserved for many millenia to come, provided of course that Singapore survives as a country.
2)
the pikamaster -
I am writing to TODAY anyway, so I want to know the format you used when you wrote your letter, pls?Originally posted by robertteh:The press knows about the problems facing the country. However, it is of not much use to email them as there is nothing it can do because it is prohibited to pursue "crusading jounalism". (now what is crusading journalism anyway)
Editors and jounalists were replaced from time to tiem. One journalist has posted here in this forum. So no one will take a chance to write what they feel is the truth.
The worse is it will not admit its lack of moral courage to write the truth. So the only way the press can report is to write good stories and justifications to explain away problems.
This is the most serious of all problems facing our society as without truths, the whole populations are deprived of ideas and practical creativity the wherewithal of entrepreneurship and vibrancy.
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hmmm...Originally posted by Elfred:Nope. LKY will become mythical as well. I knew what you were saying, no worry.
as I explained in my previous post, LKY will be recognized as a historical figure the same way Qin Shi Huang is remembered now, because even hundereds and thousands of years from now, presumably the LKY School of Public Policy will remain, a statue of LKY will remain, the documents presenting his life and works will be preserved by a museum authority; his coffin will probably be present somewhere too...
Because of all this, he will not be mythical at all, no matter how many myths or legends are formed around him. -
To: Pikamaster,Originally posted by pikamaster:I am writing to TODAY anyway, so I want to know the format you used when you wrote your letter, pls?
That is the spirit. Never say die. Just send the letter as attachment to your email. The email of Today: [email protected].
You may take a look at one of my letters to Today reproduced at page 29 (posted on 3.8.2005) "WHAT CHANCE DO WE HAVE TO GROW A CIVIL SOCIETY" This letter was published the next day 4.8.2005 with some minor amendments by the editor. Regards, -
Myth formed because of lacking in total knowledge.Originally posted by pikamaster:hmmm...
as I explained in my previous post, LKY will be recognized as a historical figure the same way Qin Shi Huang is remembered now, because even hundereds and thousands of years from now, presumably the LKY School of Public Policy will remain, a statue of LKY will remain, the documents presenting his life and works will be preserved by a museum authority; his coffin will probably be present somewhere too...
Because of all this, he will not be mythical at all, no matter how many myths or legends are formed around him.
Such total knowledge lacking can be due to:
1. Incomplete details cos no records in the whole world can form exactly all the factors as and when happening...
2. Incomplete details cos very few or none really readily can go through all the details...
3. Incomplete details cos very very very few have the correct thinking to focus on the right side of details and processing...
4. Etc.
Which is, even if MM has the memoirs (and which I notice several things could also have been left out, as what 'Ousted' might fill in the void) and the many records... I never believe entirely on facts and figures, but the issue is... after many years, he'd be a myth just as some government reply using Einstein to justify our education the other time without even knowing the Einstein was certainly not academically 'proven' to be the best, before (as Mr Sim WF) he became the best...
It's all a regrets... it's not even a belief but a religion to most Singaporean thinking... and where there is religion, there is myth.
If PAP last another 100 years, be sure that MM Lee would be a legendary figure as Liu Bei had been. And if someone hundreds of years later spotted my posting and dig the entire pile out... I'd certainly be another legend.
And I am sure the thinkers then would agree with me on this subject that MM would be a legend at that time.
Qin Shi Huang himself is also legendary. Try read those literatures with regards to his happenings, and you'd know. Some are pretty kinda... fantasy. -
erpz, then what do u put as the main body fo the email and the subject of the email?Originally posted by robertteh:To: Pikamaster,
That is the spirit. Never say die. Just send the letter as attachment to your email. The email of Today: [email protected].
You may take a look at one of my letters to Today reproduced at page 29 (posted on 3.8.2005) "WHAT CHANCE DO WE HAVE TO GROW A CIVIL SOCIETY" This letter was published the next day 4.8.2005 with some minor amendments by the editor. Regards,
'Cos I juz sent off my letter, and it's in the format:
[HEADER]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Letter to Forum: (title of letter)
[BODY]
Name: (my name)
Address: (my address)
Contact No.: (my contact no.)
Letter Title: (the title of the letter)
(letter body)
Will my letter be rejected simply becos I submitted it in the wrong format?
the (worried) pikamaster -
To: Pikamaster,
I used the same format as you have done, giving full name address and contact no. It is ok. -
(reply to a forumer at CNA on 18.9.2005)
Of course the leaders always want to compare with situations 40 years ago to inflate their own egos that they have succeeded in building a nation without resources.
Of course they will continue to show news in their state-controlled media that selectively promote their own image.
Do people know the truths like the NKF case hidden and not reported widely but known to many people of excellence.
Singapore per capita ranking has dropped from 8th to 22nd due to loss of economic competitiveness as a result of all kinds of so-called leadership conceptual policies that don't work any more in a different world since the 1970s.
The leaders have taxed the people on full market values on all essential government services that the people and businesses are struggling.
Property values have dropped to the bottom because the economy is basically in bad shape especially the local and SME sector.
While regional tigers are doing better than ours, due to people-centred policies and dynamism our leaders are still pretending their past high costs and class elitism policies are working well
Try to understand perspective and truths and not be brainwashed into inactions. -
(reply to a forumer at CNA on 18.9.2005)
We will believe the yellow ribbon project is for real and the leaders have become more forgiving if there is no more further attempts to increase ISD-type clamp-down on dissenting opinions through picking up some racists bloogers to axe the whole population again and again.
Just look at the past denials happening in NKF. It is the same mentality - mistakes are not admitted but narrow-minded policies continue to suit their narrow agendas like taxing and recovering all costs to create surplus at the expense of economic competitiveness and containing of political dsssents or differences of opinions. -
Which is the greater of evils - some immature racists posting some remarks in a blog thereby causing some discomforts or the whole government elites overreacting and coming down hard on populations with greater stifling controls due to immature conduct of a few.
Which is the bigger danger - a few anti-social persons who cause harms to a few citizens or the elites practising tax and privatisation policies to avoid responsibility for looking after the people, the sick and old and the under-privileged in provisions of essential services and running up a system of high-cost of living and doing business due to uncaring self-centred and unaccountable management.
Tolerate the white elephant placards outside some MRT white stations or endure more and more hardship and eventually social unrest and breakup of society? -
Which is the greater evil? The Casino or gambling?Originally posted by robertteh:Which is the greater of evils - some immature racists posting some remarks in a blog thereby causing some discomforts or the whole government elites overreacting and coming down hard on populations with greater stifling controls due to immature conduct of a few.
Which is the bigger danger - a few anti-social persons who cause harms to a few citizens or the elites practising tax and privatisation policies to avoid responsibility for looking after the people, the sick and old and the under-privileged in provisions of essential services and running up a system of high-cost of living and doing business due to uncaring self-centred and unaccountable management.
Tolerate the white elephant placards outside some MRT white stations or endure more and more hardship and eventually social unrest and breakup of society?
Remove Casino and let gambling, or remove gambling and let Casino... ...
This is a common logical problem of the people.
Which is the greater evil? PAP or Opposition? If there had been no PAP, would Mr Lee Kuan Yew not have SFP, SEP or what...
There is no greater or lesser evil where there is no good... Evil is evil. -
The government ministers have been asking their people to change and keep up with the fast-paced knowledge-based technological development and management excellence.
However have they set as examples of how to keep up with such fast-paced changes.
Instead of introducing advanced technologies to compete with the Asian tigers, we only see them constantly reminiscing about their past leadership achievements 40 years ago.
Have we produced the latest advanced products in handphones, satellites communications or bio-tech advancements as South Korea or Finland have done.
Have our ministers succeeded in setting technological start-ups to give our returning scholars the right environment to work for and create new-generations of jobs which we want to compete in the world stage?
Thus, our ministers and Mr. Phillip Yeo have failed to create new technological start-ups and therefore has to talk constantly about bond-breakers. If he has been holistic in developing technological excellence, our scholars will not be breaking bonds to work for US aerospace companies who offer them better prospects to venture in.
Who is at fault? Our scholars breaking bonds or minsters not doing enough to develop broad-based education and technologies. -
I agree with your last line.. For the rest...Originally posted by Elfred:Which is the greater evil? The Casino or gambling?
Remove Casino and let gambling, or remove gambling and let Casino... ...
This is a common logical problem of the people.
Which is the greater evil? PAP or Opposition? If there had been no PAP, would Mr Lee Kuan Yew not have SFP, SEP or what...
There is no greater or lesser evil where there is no good... Evil is evil.
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There's no need to agree with the rest.Originally posted by pikamaster:I agree with your last line.. For the rest...
Yawn... ...
Very sianz. Gotta sleep for tomorrow's work now. But I still wanna fetch my wife from work at 11pm. So... Urgh... -
Elfred,Originally posted by Elfred:Myth formed because of lacking in total knowledge.
Such total knowledge lacking can be due to:
1. Incomplete details cos no records in the whole world can form exactly all the factors as and when happening...
2. Incomplete details cos very few or none really readily can go through all the details...
3. Incomplete details cos very very very few have the correct thinking to focus on the right side of details and processing...
4. Etc.
Which is, even if MM has the memoirs (and which I notice several things could also have been left out, as what 'Ousted' might fill in the void) and the many records... I never believe entirely on facts and figures, but the issue is... after many years, he'd be a myth just as some government reply using Einstein to justify our education the other time without even knowing the Einstein was certainly not academically 'proven' to be the best, before (as Mr Sim WF) he became the best...
It's all a regrets... it's not even a belief but a religion to most Singaporean thinking... and where there is religion, there is myth.
If PAP last another 100 years, be sure that MM Lee would be a legendary figure as Liu Bei had been. And if someone hundreds of years later spotted my posting and dig the entire pile out... I'd certainly be another legend.
And I am sure the thinkers then would agree with me on this subject that MM would be a legend at that time.
Qin Shi Huang himself is also legendary. Try read those literatures with regards to his happenings, and you'd know. Some are pretty kinda... fantasy.
just because some myths may be formed around a real person does not make them mythical immediately.
7) Just because information is misused or (deliberately) misinterpreted doesn't make that information false!
Hmmm.... Hv you watched the series on Discovery Channel detailing the search for Noah's ark?? And btw, the search is being done by purely secular scientists, not by religious fanatics.
9) Where are the records proving Liu's existence? Hmm... p'raps we are clashing on the definition of "legendary" here? But then, anyway, legendary is not the same as mythical. Legends contain some degree of historical truth; myths are fully fiction.
10) maybe...
11) But nonetheless everyone agrees tt he commissioned the construction of the Great Wall. So he is still a historical figure, not a mythic character.
Cheers,
the pikamaster -
The more the government perceives problems in this way - that even young bloggers of 17 years are threats to society - the more control laws and regulations will have to be put in to check on perceived problems.Originally posted by Elfred:There's no need to agree with the rest.
Yawn... ...
Very sianz. Gotta sleep for tomorrow's work now. But I still wanna fetch my wife from work at 11pm. So... Urgh...
On the other hand, if government leaders have more tolerance of lack of perfections among small groups of people of any race found in any society, there is no reason problems cannot be solved in some other ways.
As leaders they must learn to be more objective, accountable, tolerance and broad-minded so that there will not be perceived so many over-reactions or problems. Better alternatives and dialogues among community will arise given more holistic approach.
In the aftermath of the London bombing, the British PM Tony Blair was reported to have said that the way to deal with terrorism is through total approach and contest of will and not by tit-for-tat or retaliations. -
Robert,Originally posted by robertteh:The more the government perceives problems in this way - that even young bloggers of 17 years are threats to society - the more control laws and regulations will have to be put in to check on perceived problems.
On the other hand, if government leaders have more tolerance of lack of perfections among small groups of people of any race found in any society, there is no reason problems cannot be solved in some other ways.
As leaders they must learn to be more objective, accountable, tolerance and broad-minded so that there will not be perceived so many over-reactions or problems. Better alternatives and dialogues among community will arise given more holistic approach.
In the aftermath of the London bombing, the British PM Tony Blair was reported to have said that the way to deal with terrorism is through total approach and contest of will and not by tit-for-tat or retaliations.
I agree that the govt should not reign in new laws to deal with "cyber-crime" or blogs. However, I agree, in principle at least, that it should deal with racists, although jailing them might be a bit too harsh. A hefty fine should be good enough.
And I agree with what Tony Blair said; but rmb, he is the head of the government who recently passed a law extending rights of government to carry out detention w/o trial, which just shows that he doesn't practice what he preaches. And anyway, Asian leaders are always more narrow-minded than the rest, for soem peculiar historical reason.
the pikamaster -
It's not just tolerance...Originally posted by robertteh:The more the government perceives problems in this way - that even young bloggers of 17 years are threats to society - the more control laws and regulations will have to be put in to check on perceived problems.
On the other hand, if government leaders have more tolerance of lack of perfections among small groups of people of any race found in any society, there is no reason problems cannot be solved in some other ways.
As leaders they must learn to be more objective, accountable, tolerance and broad-minded so that there will not be perceived so many over-reactions or problems. Better alternatives and dialogues among community will arise given more holistic approach.
In the aftermath of the London bombing, the British PM Tony Blair was reported to have said that the way to deal with terrorism is through total approach and contest of will and not by tit-for-tat or retaliations.
Even ants can kill... In the society, sad but true, while many touched politics as you do, very few really see politics from power struggles... Sigh...
You claimed leaders now can't tolerate bloggers, but leaders are also from the society, so will the society be more tolerant to the leaders? Will the bloggers be more tolerant to accept the leaders' want instead of going against the leaders' tolerance...? I hope it doesn't sound hard to understand but...
Both sides are to blame.
Nor will the bloggers respect of what leadership they won't recognise or find any empathy with, nor will leaders have their followers with them in their hearts... It's fair isn't it?
But is that good...? -
You claim that our leaders are part of society and society should understand their role and empathise with them.Originally posted by Elfred:It's not just tolerance...
Even ants can kill... In the society, sad but true, while many touched politics as you do, very few really see politics from power struggles... Sigh...
You claimed leaders now can't tolerate bloggers, but leaders are also from the society, so will the society be more tolerant to the leaders? Will the bloggers be more tolerant to accept the leaders' want instead of going against the leaders' tolerance...? I hope it doesn't sound hard to understand but...
Both sides are to blame.
Nor will the bloggers respect of what leadership they won't recognise or find any empathy with, nor will leaders have their followers with them in their hearts... It's fair isn't it?
But is that good...?
What is the nature of leadership and what are the roles the leaders should play in society?
Leaders to me are persons elected by the people to look after their interests and wellbeing. In electing their leaders, people impliedly choose them to be the best who have extra abilities to be objective and accountable and set as good examples of themselves.
By virtue of leaders being persons elected to lead the people, it would be incorrect to expect people to try to understand and warm up to the leaders or worshipping the ground they walk on or being part of society. For leaders to be effective they should demonstrate extra quality and ability and willingness to understand people and be prepared to lead by example and subscribe to principles of accountability and transparency. If leaders are unable to be objective in applying sedition law to non-mass circulation electronic dairy like blogging, people will see them as less than objective or reasonable and will grow wary and unwilling to support such leaders.
So far our leaders over the past forty years or so have passed many ISD-like draconian laws. They are not prepared to rationalise and be objective or lead by example in making themselves accountable in invoking and applying sedition law to personal blogging.
By failing to show such objectivity in applying sedition laws to bloggers' immature remarks over the net, it shows that they are not leading by example. -
Well personally, I feel that no political or economical system has been ideally practiced. How can we say that the USA potrays the perfect paradigm of democracy? At the same time, is China the prototype for communism?
As some of you have mentioned, these ideologies are best prescribed to suit the individual needs and situations of the differing nations. Thus, we obviously cannot compare the implimented systems in Singapore and say, USA.
Hence, the question that needs to be addressed is, are we as democratic as we depict ourselves to be? Or do the men in white merely overstate the citizens' freedom in order to appease the watchful eye of the crotch-hair administration?