Originally posted by sgdiehard:What products are you selling here ? Why are you trying so hard to pitch your sales to so many people here ?
Salesman selling the product will run away as soon as there are problem with the product or its application. Company employing the salesman is not known. [b]BUY AT YOUR OWN RISK!![]()
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Since you posted yr 7 points on True Democracy, 21 forumites responded. Among them 14 clearly indicated in one way or another that yr idea was "smacks of idealism and possibly naivety". Unfortunately You insist on turning blind eyes and deaf ears to these "honest to goodness views and opinions." but you outshine some of our polticians.Originally posted by robertteh:Instead of forming many committees and expanding the government machinery to increase costs, just carry out the following:-
(1) Ministries and ministers being made responsible for any non-performance based on doable, accountable and transparent work processes.
(2) Practise the 7 points of true democracy in an accountable and transparent manner subject to scrutiny by parents, citizens and independent assessers.
(3) Deregulate past legislations and contractors'/suppliers registration system to promote entrepreneurships.
(4) Re-vise past formula of charging for government fees/charges to recover only consumption items and overheads. Taxes are collected to pay for essential services. So, waive Land costs or rentals on provisions of medical, utility, police and essential services. Charge land costs only for commercial services like licensing of rights, entertainments, advertising, port/air-port services, deals/contracts relating to investments etc etc.
(5) Conceptual schemes, presentations or justifications such as meritocracy, scholars, talents, more foreign talents, more incentives to attract foreigners did not work during crises and bad times are not that necessary. Efficiency and productivity should come from self-reliant and more resilient kinds of doable work processes to obtain results.
Just my opinions.![]()
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It is not necessary for each forumite to take lesson from you. Tidalwave and several others wrote well and there is no need for me to add. From the exchanges it becomes very clear where the problem lies. When legitimate questions were evaded, fictitous number quoted without clarification, this is no longer a sensible and serious discussion. Furthermore, views like yours, from someone who has no stake in the country should be taken as just a sound and nothing else.Originally posted by robertteh:To: sgdiehard,
If you feel so strongly about the 7 points of true democracy as posted, why didn't you give your rebuttal while I was discussing and explaining those points to Tidalwave, or others.
Certainly, Tidalwave could speak for himself without you coming to re-gurgitate what has been posted by me and what he had replied. He chose to retire from this topic for reason as stated by himself. I do not wish to say anything more. Anyone could read my point-by-point replies to queries raised. Anyone can read whether I have evaded my points or postulations once again from this thread without your intercession to suit your latest unsolicited criticism.
What is fair is fair as each one of us has been given equal opportunity to debate our point. After all have been said, you should accept the fact that the gist of debates about the 7 points of true democracy has been an fait accompli unless you want to re-start the subject by a new thread of your own, say "I, SGDIEHARD DISAGREE WITH THE 7 POINTS OF TRUE DEMOCRACY" and let everyone post his or her opinions.![]()
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sigh, robert, you still don't get it, do you? But I really hope you can open yr eyes and see. Read again what the forumites have said:Originally posted by robertteh:To: sgdiehard,
Not to worry. The 7 points of true democracy are just my opinions. There is no teaching of anyone as this is a public forum for exchange of opinions or views.
You could have rebutted my various replies or non-replies to any points discussed. But if you did not or could not rebut the points under discussions as posted, the arguments for or against democracy or the 7 points would be as they were exchanged.
Giving your own impressions of the 7 points and arguments after the event is another exercise altogether. I don't think others will necessarily share your impressions that the case for democracy or the 7 points of democracy as posted was or was not carried or too idealistic. It is your privilege to stick to your own views about this matter or decline my suggestion to start your own topic on democracy or uphold the existing system for forumites' further discussions.![]()
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How about having younger NMPs, and 'average Joe'?Source: ST, 30/9/04
MORE young blood in the Government? Well, here's a thought. Bring in some younger Nominated MPs - late 20s, early 30s - who could be representative of the younger population that the Government is trying to reach.
Up till now, it seems that the ones picked are generally all very well-established individuals and tend to be over the age of 35.
In my opinion, the reason many young people are somewhat disillusioned with the Government is largely attributable to the fact that they don't know the office-holders in person. They have never met the Prime Minister, they have never talked to a minister. They see them only on TV or at official openings, giving speeches, and that is their perception of them.
Unfortunately, the fact that there are also many in the civil service who are still rather 'old fashioned' in both their management and PR skills makes matters worse, as these are the 'bosses' of the younger generation.
I count myself fortunate to have had the chance to interact with some ministers and officials. And, well, let's just say that there is quite a big difference among them.
I find it harder to relate to the more seasoned minsters. They seem set in their ways and not very open to new ideas.
On the other hand, the younger ministers I have met are willing to talk to you as a person, no hierarchy involved, much like the way modern CEOs interact with their staff. I can relate to them and I see passion in what they are doing.
This is not to say that the older ministers are not passionate, but they just don't seem to show it. This could be due to our culture, and their upbringing.
But had I never met any of them and merely read or heard what they said, I would have simply brushed it aside as propaganda.
Having said that, I think we should allow for some diversity and not just bring the scholars and the high-flying entrepreneurs into the scheme of things.
Get the 'average Joe' into the picture too. You just might be surprised at his point of view.
[name deleted]
Here is my take:Originally posted by sgdiehard:sigh, robert, you still don't get it, do you? But I really hope you can open yr eyes and see. Read again what the forumites have said:
1. Paperchicken on 5/9 0404pm: I think there's no such thing as a "true" or "model" democracy. Each country shd adapt and come up with a democratic system that suits it best.
2. Qitai on 6/9 1204am: We have. We can vote down PAP. But I do not believe that democracy is an end to itself.
3. CenturionMBT on 6/9 0209am:.. true democracy. . .in an ideal world maybe. Â…ultimately i wouldn't care less about the politics
4. Muse on 6/9 1130am: The choice remains, the key is whether the people choose to take it.
5. Drawer on 6/9 0119pm: If like that,I rather have a chaotic democracy!
6. Tidalwave3333 on 6/9 0707pm : robertteh's 7-point definition of a 'true democracy', while inspirational, also smacks of idealism (and possibly naivety). The American political model certainly does not possess all of those virtues. In fact, I would go so far to add that those prerequisites are set so high that pragmatically, no country can ever satisfy them adequately.
7. Himbo on 6/9 0722pm: I applaude your balanced point of view as well asÂ…..Yeah....what he said..Â…
8. av98m on 7/9 0914pm: like the Singapore model better.
9. Runningismylife on 7/9 0217pm: democracy is for everyone to interprate and comprehend. for one thing is sure, there's not only one form of democracy availableÂ….. i believe that socialist democracy has brought us what other democracies have not brought to their society and country.
10. Reginaldroddi on 8/9 0710am: Sorry popping out but i think that democracy is an ideal world, there is no assect definition... ppl improve on ideas & apply it from time to time...
11. Pikamaster on 8/9 0902am: My opinion is that we hsould adopt UK's "shadow parliament" democracy.
12. Fymk on 14/9 on 0823am: The meaning of true democracy is *drum rolls*Â….There is no such thing as a true democracy!
13. Gohmengseng on 16/9 1100am: The system of democracy must be both a system of selection as well as elimination.
The other forumites like iveco, Atobe, reyes, men_@_arms, oldbreadstinks expressed their opinion on singapore politics but I can't see any opinion from them supporting yr 7 pts of democracy. Scorps125 posted something just to let off his frustrations. After yr long answer explaining the 7 pts to gregorsamsa you must have expected him to say hurray, great plan! but we have not seen his response.
I don't have to rubuke yr 7 pts. In fact, I learned from these postings and I am more convinced now that these 7 pts is a piece of shit.
So singaporean have spoken, not all of us are happy with the present system, but we know what we want, definitely not the 7pts of democracy. Feel free to keep this thread alive in case someone might want to agree with you.
But just to substantiate your credibility, please be reminded there are questions which you have not answered: You brought up the question about the HDB's S$14billions, are you going to substantiate it? On 10/9 You posted a Conclusion in which you mentioned there are general concensus, can you advise how you reached those concensus? You were asked if you ever consider to walk your talk, are you ready to answer? You also have not answered the question if you were prepared to fight for Singapore or you will flee as soon as there is problem here.
Btw, are you here to collect info to write another book? Hope yr book on the ... management system is selling well. Times are hard, people are getting smarter, hardselling doesn't work, bullshits doesn't sell.
This is the final of my final post on this thread.![]()
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The decision whether to evolve our particular democracy along the US, or European model (Sweden, Switzerland or Finland) is simple.Originally posted by iveco:Hmm, this thread seems to be cold, but I'd like to share some of my experiences in Perth this month.
As you know, the Australian federal elections concluded and John Howard was re-elected to a fourth term. Some of you have said that Australia practices Proportional Representation, but I doubt it is the case. Rather they use a modified version of first-past-the-post. The people vote for their preferred candidate for that constituency (all single-saters), which means all parties are standing in all constituencies.
Although I'm just an overseas student with no voting rights, I had my chance at the university's student guild elections yesterday. The instructions on my voting slip said that only numbers were allowed in the boxes beside the candidates' names. People who marked the slips with an "X" would spoil the vote. The numbers indicate preferences. Voters must indicate their first choice in order for the vote to be valid. It is not necessary to list all the preferences (but I listed up to the third).
My opinion is that if FPTP is to stay, it should be modified to include preferential voting. For that to be implemented, the group-represented constituencies must be disbanded as a starter.
The players of this game use actual national flags for Singapore and Canada. Other than that, everthing is imagined. Better to play C&C or Red Alert.Originally posted by loftyideals:
Originally posted by NineGrains:NineGrains,
New here and have been following this thread closely. Would like to add my observations:
Compared to other threads in the forum which seems to take on an extraordinary degree of anti-everything-Singapore whining, this is one of the more informative and interesting ones.
I must admit I am quite taken by TidalWave333's writings here which I personally find to be eloquent, logical and well-informed. While they tend to be academic at times, his posts are still highly readable.
Iveco is another favourite although I can't say I am a firm believer of the PR-system. Still he has managed to remain calm-headed and persuasive where I am concerned.
Goh Meng Seng writes well- but I have not made up my mind about him. He seems to tread between relevant and unrelated issues.
But the highlight of this thread must be Robertteh- I cannot help but be amused by Robertteh's insistence that many people are supporting his 7-points. (Many people certainly support this thread by contributing, but that's a different issue). These "supporters" must be phantom/ghost fans since most forum participants have pointed out Robertteh's obvious evasion of crucial issues, factual errors, or just plain illogical conclusions. Or perhaps he chooses to ignore the evident situation (as many have pointed out repeatedly) that consensus is lacking here, especially with regards to whatever he has said. (Sorry robert- this is not a personal attack, but just my sentiments).
There is an entire literature on the pros/cons on FPTP/PR. Both are used in many countries all over the world, and the use/exclusion of one does not make a country more or less democratic.
What has been generally left unsaid is that Singaporeans [b]genuinely support the incumbent party. All governments engage in some form of electoral stunt or gerrymandering- it is not exclusive to any one country. Singaporeans are educated and have a right to choose the party they think is in the best position to lead.
Ironically, Robertteh who praises the American system may want to look at how the American electoral system failed in 2000 (chads and complicated ballot slips, missing ballots, overseas ballots uncounted, registered black Americans barred from voting, antiquated voting procedures and equipment, the role of Fox News in concluding results before the counting had even ended, the role of Jeb Bush's governor of Florida and brother of George W Bush etc), and today's news (29 Oct 2004) about 58,000 ballots going missing in Florida.
That's my piece.[/b]
Why would they wanna do such a stupid thing like that? I would think that those who stepped forward would constitute more of people thinking for themselves than the nation....?Originally posted by robertteh:True democracy should incorporate the following elemental ingredients:-
(1) One Man One Vote,
(2) Protection of citizens against prosecution for participating in governance.
(3) Basic rights of citizens are spelt out and enshrined in constitution.
(4) Due process in administration of laws - to uphold rule of law, fairness and equity, non-interferences with election or constitutional rights of citizens.
(5) Interpretations on likely infringements of basic or constitutional rights of citizens or political participants to be administered by an independent small claim citizens' right sub-court open to observers from UN agencies.
For example, giving of goodies that may unfairly influence the voting process or fairness be subject to such small claim court's prior determination.
(6) Situation of likely conflict of interests by the executives such as self-voting of ministers' pay or alignment to private sector pay (abstention from voting and debate should be observed) be referred to independent citizens' rights sub-court for prior sanctions or review.
(7) Non prosecution of political opponents - without prior certification of indictment process by the citizens' right sub-court according to provisions of the constitution laws or citizens' basic rights.
There may be many more items which can be usefully added to refine our current political system to make it more accountable and open. Only in this manner can we really say that we have achieved progress and success. Only in this way can we expect the youths to truly come forward to serve the nation. My humble personal views and opinions on this subject.![]()
Points about missing of 58,000 ballots in Florida are nothing if one is to consider that without democracy there will be no ballot boxes to begin with.Considering you portray yourself as one who values democracy, surely one missing vote is unethical and even illegal, much less 58,000! And with the controversies surrounding the last American election, this is certainly highly suspect, especially when it happened in Florida (again!), where George Bush's brother, Jeb Bush, is governor.
As for the missing 58,000 ballot boxes, I am sure you can see for yourself that any ballot boxes could be missing in any country for a variety of reasons that had nothing to do with merits or demerits of its political system. Go and check this out yourself with any definition of democracy anywhere to see missing ballot boxes are part of the definitio.I wonder if this is another deliberate misinterpretation of a perfectly ordinary sentence about missing ballots, NOT ballot boxes. It was clearly written in previous posts BALLOTS went missing, NOT BALLOT BOXES. Anyone who reads/watches the news knows that close to 60,000 absentee ballots went missing in Florida i.e. registered voters did not receive their ballots and hence could not vote. This is the same controversial state in the last American election. It is the state which George Bush's broher, Jeb Bush leads as governor. It is the same state that saw vote-counting stop mid-way in 2000. If ballot boxes go missing, new ones can be made and no votes would be lost. but if ballots go missing and new ones are not replaced in time, close to 60,000 voters would have been deprived of their constitutional right- and that has the potential to change results.
Your idea of support appears to be based on quick or straw poll of some kind depending on many reply in "yes" or "no". Arguments offered by Pikamaster or Iveco to you appear to be not that important. I beg to differ that my logic of democracy or the 7 points of democracy was twisted.What am I supposed to be supporting based on a straw poll? I have not said anything about supporting anything or anyone in my last post.
As for standard of English, or style of writing, it would appear you had written reasonably except that the logic at times does not quite fall in proper placeWhich sentence is illogical? One expects to be presented with a real example, rather than an accusation made out of thin air?