Another Cheques in from Dr Chee(SDP)
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ok, i am acting as a mediator here.Originally posted by HENG@:but thinking about it, the whole thing started when some ignorant ppl attacked atobe for pointing out some very good points about Nelson Mandela, n the inaccuracies in LKY's statements. I don't think that is something right either. Shouldn't they get a rap on the kunckles for that too?
Ok, i guess it all starts from here.
ok, the problem with this post is that he said he feels atobe is overall a NATO except that he spiced it up with the words "deranged dog" etc. But personally i find this post overall pretty light hearted and shouldn't be taken seriously. But of course atobe may beg to differ. But i guess this is the original sentiment of the original poster.
Originally posted by runningismylife:
hey atobe. instead of just shooting your mouth off like a deranged dog. why not put ur money where your mouth is?
contribute ur money to help Chee pay off his debts larh..
so come the next GE, he can bark like a dog in front of the MM and SM again
Now on the other hand it does not really warrent a spate of name calling on both papershicken and runningismylife, which i personally feel that is unfair to them.
However for the two of them, judging on the later replies, which involves a hell lot of "mr greens' , please take note that i am not really here to defend you, what you just did is certainly a flame bait so for the both of you, it is certainly not funny.
So to everybody, is this fair enuff? -
Ya lor,i am also surprised so many ppl attacked Atobe n hated Chee.Actually Chee also did nothing harmful to SM Goh or MM Lee what,the most he did was questioning Mr Goh where is the money borrow to Indonesia.He didnt punch Mr Goh like a gangster or attack Mr Goh n cause injuries to him.[]Originally posted by HENG@:but thinking about it, the whole thing started when some ignorant ppl attacked atobe for pointing out some very good points about Nelson Mandela, n the inaccuracies in LKY's statements. I don't think that is something right either. Shouldn't they get a rap on the kunckles for that too?
Usually for this kind of situation,if Mr Goh thinks that Chee is an idiot,he just walk away n ignore him will be enough.If he is still angry,he can speak up in the parliament and disgrace Mr Chee.No need to sue want what.I have experience much worse treatment from my past colleague,quarrel,shouting,"backstabbing"and even fighting when i am teenage,if SM Goh and MM Lee cannot take this kind of comment n stress,then i think they better stay at home n dont come out n work! -
Yup,fair leh!Originally posted by CenturionMBT:ok, the problem with this post is that he said he feels atobe is overall a NATO except that he spiced it up with the words "deranged dog" etc. But personally i find this post overall pretty light hearted and shouldn't be taken seriously. But of course atobe may beg to differ. But i guess this is the original sentiment of the original poster.
Now on the other hand it does not really warrent a spate of name calling on both papershicken and runningismylife, which i personally feel that is unfair to them.
However for the two of them, judging on the later replies, which involves a hell lot of "mr greens' , please take note that i am not really here to defend you, what you just did is certainly a flame bait so for the both of you, it is certainly not funny.
So to everybody, is this fair enuff?
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By comparing Chee to Mandela is a great insult to the great man himself. Atobe shd go read the autobiography of Madela before he pass that kind of stupid comments and comparisons. This guy is totally delusional. He just oppose for the sake of opposing.
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Originally posted by tspg:
Perhaps you are the one is who is "totally delusional" and is simply performing the typical knee jerk reaction of opposing me without any clear understanding of the issue at hand.
By comparing Chee to Mandela is a great insult to the great man himself. Atobe shd go read the autobiography of Madela before he pass that kind of stupid comments and comparisons. This guy is totally delusional. He just oppose for the sake of opposing.
Surprisingly, you are a self-declared membe of the NSP, and yet you are a staunch defender of the Ruling Party and their method of government.
No wonder the NSP is viewed as a Political Party created by the Ruling Party to confuse the public, and draw the votes in a forced 3-way battle in any electoral constituencies.
If you care to read the post again, in which I have responded to the comments made by the Press Secretary to MM LKY, it was HIS SUGGESTION that Dr Chee Soon Juan should learn from Nelson Mandela "to fight within the Constitution".
Was there any comparison made that will elevate Dr Chee with Mr Mandela ?
No wonder the Opposition Parties get a bad name, when their members are so flawed even in the simple understanding of a simple statement made.
Can you manage the entire volume of the autobiography of Nelson Mandela when you can hardly even understand a simple statement from one paragraph of my post in this thread ? -
Never like Atobe. But the comparison is indeed started by MM Lee, not Atobe.Originally posted by tspg:By comparing Chee to Mandela is a great insult to the great man himself. Atobe shd go read the autobiography of Madela before he pass that kind of stupid comments and comparisons. This guy is totally delusional. He just oppose for the sake of opposing. -
Much has been said about whether chee is comparable to nelson or not but that is really beside the point. no one ever made that comparison in terms of values or character but rather in terms of situation.
looking at chee's case, whether he is delusional does not change the fact that there is a historical precedence of disproportional legal action against those deemed a threat to the leaders. i wont even say they are a threat to national security or stability, or even a threat to the leader's integrity as always claimed. Look at JBJ, Tang, Francis Seow etc etc..if historical precedence is of any use it is this; it shows an established pattern of treatment of those who addressed issues that put leaders in a critical light or even unfavourable position. perhaps there is some truth in the opposition criticisms there that could not stand the light of day brought about by questions? we do not really know because there was no open debate, where allegations were allowed to be made and countered for all to see. instead they were 'buried'.
no one is perfect, therefore i do not believe that our leaders are always right and their policies always wise and beneficial to the general public, although i have to qualify the statement by saying that so far, for most areas they did a pretty fine job.
but thats why we need an opposition. to point out the alternatives. now if the opposition is stupid, then it is to the ruling party's favour in a fair fight to discredit, through the use of logic and facts the opposition. in this way, there is no doubt who is the better man and who is fit to rule. but to use, an oxymoron, a legally 'underhand' way of demolishing your opponent even before he speaks as a way to defend your own 'credibility' is again, an oxymoronic situation. u gain credibility by showing everyone how dirty you play?? u 'bury' what your opponent has to say to maintain your own integrity? reading parliamentary debates of democracies would show that leaders and opposition debated, each with their passion and logic, on policies and even on credibility issues. this way there is really nothing to hide. you want people to respect your leadership, you go to show what u have that the others don. you don win the fight by killing the other guy before he can open his mouth and declare yourself winner.
i don particularly like chee but i do not for a moment think he is stupid. he has done what most s'poreans wouldnt dare do and given the odds, he has'nt ran away. now, doesnt that say something about him, despite his other faults? -
In the case of Chee, he made an allegation which is clearly false. So, he does deserve to be sue for defamation.
The one which I particularly disagree with is the defamation against JBJ. What he said is so subtle that to link that to defamation is simply absurb. -
There is one important difference between Mandela and Chee. One has the support of the majority not the other.
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Hi Mod
I think this discussion got worsened with your interference:
"Oie Atobe if u've sth to say, say it constructively. Dun flame. U of all the people here should know better."
Didn't u realise that after your posting there were porn and many :mrgreen
Also, I feel that Atobe had said sth constructive and there wasn't any flaming. Mayb u could enlighten me on what u meant by "dun flame"?
As a mod, I believe u should abstain from passing judgment on the forummers or their exchange. Forummer bickering is a common feature in all forums. We are quite used to it though we believe there are better ways of solving differences.
It would be good if you could refain from interfering in discussions. Aren't internet forums avenues for us to air our different views? Aren't we too clamped up by the govt already?
May I know what did u mean by "du lan" in your response to the porn? Was it sth I suspect - a crude term? If yes, then as a mod, I think you should be more mindful of your lang. If not, my apologies.
cheers
raihanraihan -
i dun think Atobe made that comparism. It was LKY thru his spokesman who did that. duh.Originally posted by tspg:By comparing Chee to Mandela is a great insult to the great man himself. Atobe shd go read the autobiography of Madela before he pass that kind of stupid comments and comparisons. This guy is totally delusional. He just oppose for the sake of opposing.
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Surprisingly 'tspg' has faded away again without any attempt to wring some tear jerking sympathetic good byes from gullible forum particpants.
Many thanks to all who have given your brave support to my views, with your unsolicited comments of encouragement.
No thanks and no comments to CenturionMBT for his position taken, as he is entitled to his own views - whatever, whenever, and wherever he believes in aiming and shooting his UK made CenturionMBT big guns' at.
My skin is as thick as the modern armor of an Abrams' M1A2 tank, and surely can take as many hits that a "CenturionMBT" Tank from a by-gone era can throw.
Had crafted a reply in response to CenturionMBT's comments, but then decided to scrap it, and wait out to see how his comments will develop.
Calm patience has its sweet rewards. -
just wondering , didn't we have a discussion on this sometime back? when we were wondering why LKY made a comment like that?Originally posted by Qitai:Never like Atobe. But the comparison is indeed started by MM Lee, not Atobe. -
Agree.Originally posted by runningismylife:lol atobe wants democracy, but he clearly lacks the maturity for it.
sad.. -
Not with me I think. Somebody else perhaps.Originally posted by oldbreadstinks:just wondering , didn't we have a discussion on this sometime back? when we were wondering why LKY made a comment like that? -
Originally posted by Qitai:
Excuse me, Qitai - perhaps you have a more privileged insight than us normal people, but what did Chee say or had made up, that you claim is an allegation and which you think is "CLEARLY FALSE" ?
In the case of Chee, he made an allegation which is clearly false. So, he does deserve to be sue for defamation.
The one which I particularly disagree with is the defamation against JBJ. What he said is so subtle that to link that to defamation is simply absurb.
If you are referring to the question or questions that Chee posed to GCT - (during the last election walk-about, when both of them came close to hearing distance) - all Chee said or asked GCT was :-
"What happened to the $1.4 BILLION ? Where is the $1.4BILLION ? Give us an answer "
Can these simple questions asked by a concerned Singaporean be deemed to be defamatory ?
If simple questions can be twisted to be seen as defamatory, then perhaps these questions that I have been asking will also be defamatory to you and those others that I have posed in my style of posting ? -
been wondering y a scholar like him ended up like this...
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chee may be hot headed ... maybe not too bright ... but 1 thing he has that so many politicians clear DON'T: BALLS
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Originally posted by papertiger:
Originally posted by runningismylife:
Agree.
[b]lol atobe wants democracy, but he clearly lacks the maturity for it.
sad..
Very interesting political comedy performed by a circus menagerie of paper animals.
It looks like the type of 'Democracy' that is being practised by these animals are only as good as the quality or type of paper that they are made from.
Even toilet paper comes in several grades, and probably serves better use by politicians and non-politicians.
The type of politics and idea of democracy espoused by this bunch of "paperanimals" is not much different from the type of democracy or politics that is being practised by the present Elites from the Ruling Party.
MM LKY :
MY nemesis JBJ is a fool, and clearly has no idea of what he is talking about.
SM GCT:
What are you referring to ?
Never mind, whatever you are trying to say, I agree
PM LHL:
Yeah, JBJ is a pain in the butt - I agree
even if the pain in my butt is due to some other cause.
When a cockerel crows, every animal will stir and will keep up to the same chorus of animal and bird cries, so as to give themselves comfort from knowing that each is nearby and in ready support of the other.
Not too surprising that the DNA of the animals will be the same, as all seems to be made from the same recycled material. -
Originally posted by Atobe:
It seems you are the one who has got access to privileged information. Where did you get the quote from? In all the articles I read - Singapore, U.S. or other foriegn media - it was stated as "Chee Soon Juan publicly challenged the Prime Minister and the government to explain and justify US$10 billion of loans previously offered to former President Suharto of Indonesia.". Your figures are different by the way.
Excuse me, Qitai - perhaps you have a more privileged insight than us normal people, but what did Chee say or had made up, that you claim is an allegation and which you think is "CLEARLY FALSE" ?
If you are referring to the question or questions that Chee posed to GCT - (during the last election walk-about, when both of them came close to hearing distance) - all Chee said or asked GCT was :-
[b]"What happened to the $1.4 BILLION ? Where is the $1.4BILLION ? Give us an answer "[/b]
So, for once, are you going to reveal to us where you get your privieged information from? -
Originally posted by Qitai:
Now it confirms that your information is more privilege than mine, and with more accuracy too.
It seems you are the one who has got access to privileged information. Where did you get the quote from? In all the articles I read - Singapore, U.S. or other foriegn media - it was stated as "Chee Soon Juan publicly challenged the Prime Minister and the government to explain and justify US$10 billion of loans previously offered to former President Suharto of Indonesia.". Your figures are different by the way.
So, for once, are you going to reveal to us where you get your privieged information from?
US$10 Billion - (or $1.4 Billion)
It still does not explain why it is defamatory for anyone to ask the Prime Minister as to what happened to this amount of money that was supposed to have been offered as a loan to the ex-President Suharto. -
No privilege. Those are publish news. Anyone can access.Originally posted by Atobe:Now it confirms that your information is more privilege than mine, and with more accuracy too.
US$10 Billion - (or $1.4 Billion)
It still does not explain why it is defamatory for anyone to ask the Prime Minister as to what happened to this amount of money that was supposed to have been offered as a loan to the ex-President Suharto.
Check your maths.
Defamatory because that never took place. -
i certainly don't know about the rest of the arguments that developed, but i have to ask, what the hell WAS wrong about nelson mandela that atobe pointed out? what is so wrong that warrented acidic attacks from the others? this is just illogical.
most of u guys are just blasting him because u dun like him, not so much because what he said was wrong. duh. -
2 points i would like to point outOriginally posted by HENG@:i certainly don't know about the rest of the arguments that developed, but i have to ask, what the hell WAS wrong about nelson mandela that atobe pointed out? what is so wrong that warrented acidic attacks from the others? this is just illogical.
most of u guys are just blasting him because u dun like him, not so much because what he said was wrong. duh.
1# most of the time you bash someone only when you don't like him
2# bashing is against the rules here,
but of course if you think you're smart enough to get aorund the rules , i have nothing to say to that of course -
Originally posted by Qitai:
Just because the loan was not effected, is asking the question so defamatory ?
No privilege. Those are publish news. Anyone can access.
Check your maths.
Defamatory because that never took place.
"Where is the MONEY ? Where is the $10 Billion ?"
The surprising part of this entire episode that had slipped from public perception is the fact that this huge amount of money was offered to the Suharto government without due process required by the Constitution of Singapore.
This loan was never breathed out to see the light of day, until ex-President Suharto slipped his tongue in an off-the-cuff remark of Singapore's offer of this amount to help his government.
Is it libel for a Politician, a Singapore Citizen, to ask the leader of the cabinet such a simple question that has to do with Public Funds ?
Loan breach of constitution
http://www.singapore-window.org/1121st.htm
Concern about loan offer
http://www.singapore-window.org/98aol12.htm
Jakarta will not default on loan – its GDP is twice Singapore.
http://www.singapore-window.org/80115st2.htm