SINGAPOREANS DO U WANNA BE LED BY THE NOSE?
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Oei, can don't words in my mouth or not.Originally posted by goh meng seng:Dear Qitai,
Precisely! If you are not on our side, what gives you the right and power to tell people to cheong?
It has artificially pushed up the property prices, especially those HDB prices! And now you complain it is just too high and want it down? And still, you say PAP is good at managing?
and you actually agree to a white elephant like the durians? I would rather put the $600million in banks, take the $1million interests generated to give out as social welfare! And furthermore, I save the $50million yearly maintenance fees and could well spend it on more meaningful sponsorship of cultural activities and groups!
If you read my other post around here, I always say the property price is a mistake hor.
And I did say I don't support nor disagree with the durian hor. And didn't you read me carefully. These type of thing we do not measure in dollars and cents. The big question is does the people want it? And please don't assume you know. I will admit I do not know since I can predict you will probably say I cannot assume too. Fact I do know is that there are feedbacks wanting the government to support cultural stuff. -
Who? Who?Originally posted by goh meng seng:OK, you want the property price to go down, but there are lots of people in Singapore wants the property price to go up! Get it?
Those with more than one property one har?? Sorry, I don't pity these people. They are the ones who cause the property to raise by speculating in property.
Those with just one property? They sell one, they buy one. So, price go up or down, sama sama. And what gives them the right to sell it at a higher price? They got off the hook, somebody else kenna stuck with the high price housing? So, problem just go from one Singaporean to another Singaporean.
So, is there any benefit to increase the housing price? Benefit who? Those with more than one property loh. Sorry, I cannot suppor that.
And price go down, CPI go down, the younger generation do not need to bear the burden of the old. Long term wise, it is good. You keep the housing price up, every generation suffer forever. Why do that? You mean since the older generation has already suffer on the housing price already, the young has to suffer the same thing too?
Mistake is made. So, what to do? To be fair and not too heartless to those who are already stuck, keep the housing stable and reduce it slowly over longer period of time. That is what I will do if I am in control. Jack up the price to help these people and make the future generation suffer as well? Sorry, I cannot agree with that.
Just my views on housing. -
Don't know why you want to use that figure of wage to GDP ratio? Doesn't make sense to me. Care to explain.Originally posted by goh meng seng:Please refer to a study done by our own DOS (Dept of Statistics). If you are going to talk about quality of life, then we will talk about it. We, as one of the most advanced Asian economy , has earned the lone of the lowest percentage Wage to GDP ratio! What does that mean? It could only mean that the income distribution is very badly skewed. And how does that compared to quality of life to the general public?
For me, it is just
(A) How much an average Singaporean earns in NET income
(B) How much an average Singaporean NEEDS to spend
And to me, the GNIPC gives an indication of (A). The PPP figure modifies the GNIPC figure to factor in the difference in cost of living in different countries.
As I mention, even that figure is not what I want to look at. It is just the closest. Neither GNIPC nor PPP factors in the amount of tax a citizen needs to pay. GNIPC is also not perfect measure of (A) either. But I leave this type of technical discussion elsewhere. -
Dear Qitai,
So you are saying the property price is a mistake? Too high or too low? I think you are saying it is too high, isit? Since you like low property price.
But then, do you know who has done what to result in such high property price? PAP govt. And then you still say our PAP govt is good? And you use the property price as an example (and the tax structure), as compared to others? So you are contradicting yourself isn't it?
Yes, I know your stand about Durian. But you say you will support it if people want it. Hey, how do you know people want it? And I could safely say that there are at least 100,000 people out there without job, that doesn't want this Durian, but instead, prefer a social welfare system that could help those structurally unemployed to live a decent life!
Your stand is no stand at all! How many people want it would constitute "people want it"? I support cultural stuff, but AT WHAT PRICE? $600million with an annual $50 million to upkeep? I am not that insane yet!
You must make a stand and not put the burden on some borgey "People" who want it. That's not a rational behaviour of a responsible citizen! It is just like the HDB upgrading polling. Many people who have not voted for the upgrading if it is not for this borgey thought of "People wants it" and they are afraid of putting down their own preference for fear of being scolded as the "good spoiler"! That's not the way Democratic process should work! You are part of the people and you must register your own preference, irregardless of what other people want! And then, from the overall, let's see whether the "people" really want it! Else, we will always be entrapped in this encaged mindset of "People want it"!
The fact is, the govt built it and the PAP govt wants it. Any referendum on this big spending? Don't push the blame on "People want it". That's not fair. In fact, we now know at least someone with a rational mind in Finance Ministry at that time disagree with the spending!
Qitai, I have nothing against you, really. And your point of view is quite typical of Singaporeans and it is not your problem or fault at all. It is a problem of long term social engineering and re-engineering that make Singaporeans think the way it is. The moulding of opinion is done via the education as well as the mass media. Conformist practice and you seldom see different view points against the standard Govt's proporgandas stand on various subjects. I just would like to point out the folly in such thinking process. It has done great ills on Singapore's society.
I have a story to tell. When PAP govt decided to push up property prices, happily selling land at high prices and then claim credit for the high budget surplus generated for the period from 1991 to 1995 (in fact, 40% of revenue was from land sales!), one professor wrote a thesis on the over heating property market. He was asked by the property developers to study the trend and his conclusion was that we will be heading for a total burst by 1997. URA chided him for that conclusion and shut him up. The rest is history. This is the kind of "good govt" you are talking about! The extend of social engineering is scary. Up to the point of closing all eyes and ears, just following blindly the "million dollar ministers"!
Well, at least they are talking about "opening up", which they should have done back in 1991! Where is the promise by Goh CT of a more "gentler, open society"? We could have avoided alot of bad policies if PAP had done a good job in the opening up! And yet, you are here to claim that we have a "good" govt. How good is good? If they are really that good, we wouldn't be suffering continuous exodus of local talents every year for the past decade!
It is fine for you not to be on our side. But I only hope you could open up your ears and eyes wider, judge with objectivity, how good this PAP govt is? And are we doing our future generation a great disservice by allowing all these nonsense to carry on happening in Singapore?
Goh Meng Seng
Goh Meng SengOriginally posted by Qitai:
[b]Oei, can don't words in my mouth or not.
If you read my other post around here, I always say the property price is a mistake hor.
And I did say I don't support nor disagree with the durian hor. And didn't you read me carefully. These type of thing we do not measure in dollars and cents. The big question is does the people want it? And please don't assume you know. I will admit I do not know since I can predict you will probably say I cannot assume too. Fact I do know is that there are feedbacks wanting the government to support cultural stuff. [/b] -
Sigh.. another one. But you are at least better than Atobe, so I will reply.Originally posted by goh meng seng:Dear Qitai,
So you are saying the property price is a mistake? Too high or too low? I think you are saying it is too high, isit? Since you like low property price.
But then, do you know who has done what to result in such high property price? PAP govt. And then you still say our PAP govt is good? And you use the property price as an example (and the tax structure), as compared to others? So you are contradicting yourself isn't it?
For any entity, there is always a combination of good and bad. It is not always either you are perfect or you are absolute evil. I support PAP in general because they did a lot more goods than evil. I believe that there is gray. Maybe you believe in black and white only.
Also, I wouldn't put all the blame on property price on PAP. I would only blame them for intervening too late. There are many reasons the property price goes up. To analyse that is again another big topic. Yes, government plays a big role, but it is not just them who cause this. One of the big culprit of this is actually the buyer themselves - being willing to take insane loans and commitment assuming prices will only go up. No, I am not putting the blame on the people. I am just saying we are all at fault, buyers and government. -
Well, I did say I do not know. I consider it a virtue to admit my self-deficiencies sometimes. In this case, I admit my lack of knowledge if there are indeed enough support for this durian. Abstaining is also a kind of vote. Acknowledging that someone else may have better information is also a virtue. You know you do not support the durian. We can safely assume the unemployed do not support the durian. But can we assume the rest of the other 3 Million citizen do not support the durian? What if there is 1.1 Million who supports it, 1 Million against it and 1.1 Million who choose to abstain? Should it be build?Originally posted by goh meng seng:Yes, I know your stand about Durian. But you say you will support it if people want it. Hey, how do you know people want it? And I could safely say that there are at least 100,000 people out there without job, that doesn't want this Durian, but instead, prefer a social welfare system that could help those structurally unemployed to live a decent life!
Your stand is no stand at all! How many people want it would constitute "people want it"? I support cultural stuff, but AT WHAT PRICE? $600million with an annual $50 million to upkeep? I am not that insane yet!
You must make a stand and not put the burden on some borgey "People" who want it. That's not a rational behaviour of a responsible citizen! It is just like the HDB upgrading polling. Many people who have not voted for the upgrading if it is not for this borgey thought of "People wants it" and they are afraid of putting down their own preference for fear of being scolded as the "good spoiler"! That's not the way Democratic process should work! You are part of the people and you must register your own preference, irregardless of what other people want! And then, from the overall, let's see whether the "people" really want it! Else, we will always be entrapped in this encaged mindset of "People want it"!
The fact is, the govt built it and the PAP govt wants it. Any referendum on this big spending? Don't push the blame on "People want it". That's not fair. In fact, we now know at least someone with a rational mind in Finance Ministry at that time disagree with the spending!
The point I want to make is that you have your opinion, I have my opinion (abstaining is an opinion too). But neither of us can speak for the other 3.2 Million people. At least, I admit I can't. -
Sigh.... why do people has to always resort to making this kind of statement? Does agreeing (in general, but not always) with the government means I have been brainwashed? Do you need to label people that way just so you can get people to be on your side? Please stop using this kind of tactic. If you want discussion, we discuss. But please do not degenerate to that.Originally posted by goh meng seng:Qitai, I have nothing against you, really. And your point of view is quite typical of Singaporeans and it is not your problem or fault at all. It is a problem of long term social engineering and re-engineering that make Singaporeans think the way it is. The moulding of opinion is done via the education as well as the mass media. Conformist practice and you seldom see different view points against the standard Govt's proporgandas stand on various subjects. I just would like to point out the folly in such thinking process. It has done great ills on Singapore's society.
I have a story to tell. When PAP govt decided to push up property prices, happily selling land at high prices and then claim credit for the high budget surplus generated for the period from 1991 to 1995 (in fact, 40% of revenue was from land sales!), one professor wrote a thesis on the over heating property market. He was asked by the property developers to study the trend and his conclusion was that we will be heading for a total burst by 1997. URA chided him for that conclusion and shut him up. The rest is history. This is the kind of "good govt" you are talking about! The extend of social engineering is scary. Up to the point of closing all eyes and ears, just following blindly the "million dollar ministers"!
Well, at least they are talking about "opening up", which they should have done back in 1991! Where is the promise by Goh CT of a more "gentler, open society"? We could have avoided alot of bad policies if PAP had done a good job in the opening up! And yet, you are here to claim that we have a "good" govt. How good is good? If they are really that good, we wouldn't be suffering continuous exodus of local talents every year for the past decade!
It is fine for you not to be on our side. But I only hope you could open up your ears and eyes wider, judge with objectivity, how good this PAP govt is? And are we doing our future generation a great disservice by allowing all these nonsense to carry on happening in Singapore?
Goh Meng Seng
Also, please stop your assumption about me. I can see you are already calssifying me even before you know me.
Sigh.... I hope this does not degenrate into another mud-sling session. -
It makes alot of sense to use wage to GDP Ratio.
A high GDP per capital doesn't necessary mean better quality of life to each and everyone in Singapore. If we have higher GDP per capital but lower wage to GDP ratio, then it must mean that the workers or wage earners are getting much lesser than the pie; i.e. govt and those business owners (including MNCs) are getting bigger pie.
It would then imply that actually an increase in GDP is meaningless to the masses, just like what is felt right now. PAP Govt could claim that our GDP increased by 8%, but do our workers' pay increase by that much? Do we have more people getting out of unemployment? If not, then where does this "growth" gone to? Since GDP is the same of all National income, then this increase must have benefited some more than the others! Look at it this way, when we have 8% increase in GDP but wages only increase by 3%, then it must mean that those business owners (mainly MNCs) and Govt sector, must have earned more than a 8% increase! This is a cause for concern because the increase in GDP doesn't necessary mean a general increase in income for the masses, thus, doesn't necessary equate to higher quality of life. Secondly, the income inequality gap is widening.
Goh Meng SengOriginally posted by Qitai:Don't know why you want to use that figure of wage to GDP ratio? Doesn't make sense to me. Care to explain.
For me, it is just
(A) How much an average Singaporean earns in NET income
(B) How much an average Singaporean NEEDS to spend
And to me, the GNIPC gives an indication of (A). The PPP figure modifies the GNIPC figure to factor in the difference in cost of living in different countries.
As I mention, even that figure is not what I want to look at. It is just the closest. Neither GNIPC nor PPP factors in the amount of tax a citizen needs to pay. GNIPC is also not perfect measure of (A) either. But I leave this type of technical discussion elsewhere. -
Okay, point noted. In this case, the figure we should look at isOriginally posted by goh meng seng:It makes alot of sense to use wage to GDP Ratio.
A high GDP per capital doesn't necessary mean better quality of life to each and everyone in Singapore. If we have higher GDP per capital but lower wage to GDP ratio, then it must mean that the workers or wage earners are getting much lesser than the pie; i.e. govt and those business owners (including MNCs) are getting bigger pie.
It would then imply that actually an increase in GDP is meaningless to the masses, just like what is felt right now. PAP Govt could claim that our GDP increased by 8%, but do our workers' pay increase by that much? Do we have more people getting out of unemployment? If not, then where does this "growth" gone to? Since GDP is the same of all National income, then this increase must have benefited some more than the others! Look at it this way, when we have 8% increase in GDP but wages only increase by 3%, then it must mean that those business owners (mainly MNCs) and Govt sector, must have earned more than a 8% increase! This is a cause for concern because the increase in GDP doesn't necessary mean a general increase in income for the masses, thus, doesn't necessary equate to higher quality of life. Secondly, the income inequality gap is widening.
Goh Meng Seng
wage GNP ratio*GNPPC
for an accurate reflection of avergae wage. Agree?
Question? - We should look at GNP rather than GDP right? -
Dear Qitai,
AS I have said, this is nothing personal and will not be a mudslinging exercise.
This problem is wide spread, so much so that we take it as the "norm". Nobody likes to be "labeled" unfavourably. But I must admit, I am also one of the victim of this social engineering and "brain washing". To solve a problem, one must first admit there is this problem. Without such problem recognition, no problem would be solved as it seems that there isn't any problem.
I do not label you as anything just because you are not "on my side". No, not at all. I am the first one who shoot at Goh CT's labels of "Stayers and Quitters". But from your five little postings here, I could see the pattern evolving, as I have explained, why it shouldn't be so. And of course, it may be a pre-judgment on my part to blame such reactions from you to the social engineering process that we are constantly subjected to, throughout our whole life. This social engineering is even worst than the Matrix, I used to jest.
What worries me is not whether you are on my side or not, but it is the way you see things, you judge/see things and you rationalize things. For example, to abstain from making a preferrence on a decision is very much different from saying, I will support anything if the "People want it". That's totally different attitude altogether. Whether other people want it or not, you don't have preference; you will not support nor against any decision made by others. That's what we call "abstaining". But your stand is totally different and could not materialize as we have already concluded nobody really knows what "the people want". We, as a part of the people, should determine on our part, what we want and not waiting to "conform" with other people's preference; that's what I am saying. It is the "conformist" attitude that I am worried about. Herd mentality evolves out of conformist attitude and could do great harm to a nation or any organizations.
I took special interest in your thinking process, not to throw mud at you, but just to point out, as a matter of fact, our society is deeply poisoned by the system of social engineering happening here in Singapore. Nothing against you, really.
Goh Meng SengOriginally posted by Qitai:Sigh.... why do people has to always resort to making this kind of statement? Does agreeing (in general, but not always) with the government means I have been brainwashed? Do you need to label people that way just so you can get people to be on your side? Please stop using this kind of tactic. If you want discussion, we discuss. But please do not degenerate to that.
Also, please stop your assumption about me. I can see you are already calssifying me even before you know me.
Sigh.... I hope this does not degenrate into another mud-sling session. -
Well, when I disagree, I say it. It is not as if I only say yes all the time. So, did I always say everything is perfect. NO! I defend when I think it is right and I criticised when I disagree. That is what I do. Anything wrong with that?Originally posted by goh meng seng:Dear Qitai,
AS I have said, this is nothing personal and will not be a mudslinging exercise.
This problem is wide spread, so much so that we take it as the "norm". Nobody likes to be "labeled" unfavourably. But I must admit, I am also one of the victim of this social engineering and "brain washing". To solve a problem, one must first admit there is this problem. Without such problem recognition, no problem would be solved as it seems that there isn't any problem.
I do not label you as anything just because you are not "on my side". No, not at all. I am the first one who shoot at Goh CT's labels of "Stayers and Quitters". But from your five little postings here, I could see the pattern evolving, as I have explained, why it shouldn't be so. And of course, it may be a pre-judgment on my part to blame such reactions from you to the social engineering process that we are constantly subjected to, throughout our whole life. This social engineering is even worst than the Matrix, I used to jest.
What worries me is not whether you are on my side or not, but it is the way you see things, you judge/see things and you rationalize things. For example, to abstain from making a preferrence on a decision is very much different from saying, I will support anything if the "People want it". That's totally different attitude altogether. Whether other people want it or not, you don't have preference; you will not support nor against any decision made by others. That's what we call "abstaining". But your stand is totally different and could not materialize as we have already concluded nobody really knows what "the people want". We, as a part of the people, should determine on our part, what we want and not waiting to "conform" with other people's preference; that's what I am saying. It is the "conformist" attitude that I am worried about. Herd mentality evolves out of conformist attitude and could do great harm to a nation or any organizations.
I took special interest in your thinking process, not to throw mud at you, but just to point out, as a matter of fact, our society is deeply poisoned by the system of social engineering happening here in Singapore. Nothing against you, really.
Goh Meng Seng
And if I am on the fence or feels that I am not qualified enough to say anything, I keep quiet, unless asked.
Let me share with you a piece of my mental build-up. If you keep supporting PAP on every issue, I will counter that. If you continously oppose every issue, I will counter that too. I have a build-in balancing mechanism in me. Wouldn't want to say it is good or bad. But that is just me.
Anyway, I never use the words "I will support anything if the "People want it"" hor. So, again, please do not put words into my mouth. If any of my choice of my words seems to say that, tell me. I will be more careful with the choice of words next time.
Additionally, no one is free from social influences. Have you ever heard of the word "mimes"? Ever wonder how coherant the opinions of any countries seems to be even though across countries, the opinion defers (E.g. Iraq War - you see how most french man oppose the war, while most Americans agree with the war). It is up to individual to exercise his free will to make a decision to filter information and resist conforming to the masses. You probably do not agree, but I always feel view myself as being quite successful in this area.
And let me just add - being free means not just not conforming to the government. It also means not conforming to the opposition. It means being yourself, having your own opinion. Throw away whether it is PAP or opposition. Disregard that. And that is when you truely achieve freedom of thoughts. And that is the highest level of freedom. -
Originally posted by paperchicken:
dun waste time toking to a2b
Originally posted by Atobe:
A word of friendly advise:
No need to get sack to find time.
Just juggle your time between work, sleep, and other daily natural reequirements, and you will be surprised how much time you really have and do not realise that it has been lost.
More importantly, do not waste time with emotional good-byes, when you have no intention of permanently leaving - just leave for a few days to settle your work, the articles will remain here for your follow-up - UNLESS you merely want to "duck the issues" to save face.
Concentrate on issues with some solid replies - instead of making mere hollow statements, which only reflect the hollowness of yourself.
How comical that you took the trouble to inform "tspg" - "dun waste time toking to a2b" by referring to my post sent to him, while you left yours unattended ?
Did you groom your feathers so tight that you click on the wrong posts, and preferring to attend to my posting to "tspg" ?
You may wish to be reminded again:-Originally posted by paperduck:
When all you can do is "QUACK" - can you really differentiate between a "barking" sound from all the "quacking" cacaphony ?
i will only support the opposing party if their aim is to speak up for singaporean ..not ppl who barking at our PM like CHEE.
With "quacks" like you around, all those who dare to speak out for Singaporeans will have to be careful, as the human sound thrown at the Government or its represenatives, will be misinterpreted to be "barking" sounds only - especially when heard by those who are only well versed in the art of being 'quack' practitioners. -
GDP, wage, economy, NDP, RC , SMC , MNC, GMC, S&D......
now I wonder why I never taken economics....too confusing -
Goh Meng Seng,
I was just surfing the net to look at quality of life and cost of living. So, I will share these figures with you here. The figures are from Mercer Consulting. The first one is the cost of living indicies. I have listed only those in Asia-Pacific since the full list is too long to display here. What surprises me is that even Ho Chi Minh City and Jakarta are more expensive than Singapore.
Rank 2004 City Country Index 2004
1 Tokyo Japan 130.7
4 Osaka Japan 116.1
5 Hong Kong 109.5
7 Seoul South Korea 104.1
11 Beijing China 101.1
16 Shanghai China 95.3
20 Sydney Australia 91.8
29 Hanoi Vietnam 85.6
30 Shenzhen China 85.6
31 Taipei Taiwan 85.3
32 Guangzhou China 84.9
36 Ho Chi Minh City Vietnam 84.5
45 Jakarta Indonesia 83.9
46 Singapore 83.6
67 Melbourne Australia 77.5
80 Auckland New Zealand 74.2
86 Wellington New Zealand 72.8
87 Brisbane Australia 72.7
88 Adelaide Australia 72
94 Perth Australia 70.7
104 Kuala Lumpur Malaysia 67.7
109 Mumbai India 66.8
115 Tianjin China 65.6
116 New Delhi India 64.7
117 Dacca (Dhaka) Bangladesh 64
119 Bangkok Thailand 63.5
127 Colombo Sri Lanka 60.4
132 Karachi Pakistan 56.3
133 Chennai (Madras) India 54.2
137 Bangalore India 51.1
138 Manila Philippines 48.8 -
This is the Quality of Life results from Mercer Consulting. Generally speaking, it seems that Europeans, Australians and Canadians are having a better life.
2004 Rank City Country Points
1 Zurich Switzerland 106.5
1 Geneva Switzerland 106.5
3 Vancouver Canada 106
3 Vienna Austria 106
5 Auckland New Zealand 105
5 Bern Switzerland 105
5 Copenhagen Denmark 105
5 Frankfurt Germany 105
5 Sydney Australia 105
10 Amsterdam Netherlands 104.5
10 Munich Germany 104.5
12 Brussels Belgium 104
12 Düsseldorf Germany 104
12 Melbourne Australia 104
15 Berlin Germany 103.5
15 Luxembourg Luxembourg 103.5
15 Stockholm Sweden 103.5
15 Toronto Canada 103.5
15 Wellington New Zealand 103.5
20 Nürnberg Germany 103
20 Ottawa Canada 103
20 Perth Australia 103
23 Dublin Ireland 102.5
24 Adelaide Australia 102
24 Brisbane Australia 102
24 Calgary Canada 102
24 Hamburg Germany 102
24 Helsinki Finland 102
24 Honolulu USA 102
24 Montreal Canada 102
24 San Francisco USA 102
31 Oslo Norway 101.5
31 Paris France 101.5
33 Singapore Singapore 101
33 Tokyo Japan 101
35 London UK 100.5
35 Lyon France 100.5
35 Yokohama Japan 100.5
38 Kobe Japan 100
38 Madrid Spain 100
38 New York USA 100
41 Boston USA 99.5
41 Portland USA 99.5
43 Winston Salem USA 99
44 Barcelona Spain 98.5
44 Lexington USA 98.5
44 Osaka Japan 98.5
44 Pittsburgh USA 98.5
44 Seattle USA 98.5
49 Chicago USA 98
49 Milan Italy 98 -
that's why we see so many "quitters" leaving"good ol'lion city" strange, why are S'poreans who leave called quitters and foreigners who leave their country and come here labelled foreign talent? someone tell me please.
-
Dear Qitai,
I always take caution when looking at such "surveys". Who are the people being surveyed and what are the priorities are in their list? If these people "travel" alot within the places, then transportation cost will be given higher weightage. Singapore, being a small country, will definitely "cost less" simply because the cost of travelling from one end to another is determined by the size of the country/place.
Thus, it is NOT surprising that Jarkarta or Ho Chi Minh city may appear to be more expensive than Singapore; Or even Shenzhen, if you want to travel from one point to another, the distance we are talking about is normally above 100km! And within one day, you could have done many of these trips!
And if this survey is taken from expatriate or according to expatriates' lifestyle, of course, it doesn't reflect the real cost of living for the people there. It is really stupid to believe that people in China or Ho Chih Ming city could possibly sustain a high cost of living when they earn so much lesser than Singaporeans!
Thus, my first reaction to this survey is that, this survery is about cost of living for expatriates living in these cities. I have been to China, quite many places and experience the "normal people" lifestyle. The cost of having a meal could be extremely expensive, or that extremely cheap; depending on where you eat.
Goh Meng SengOriginally posted by Qitai:Goh Meng Seng,
I was just surfing the net to look at quality of life and cost of living. So, I will share these figures with you here. The figures are from Mercer Consulting. The first one is the cost of living indicies. I have listed only those in Asia-Pacific since the full list is too long to display here. What surprises me is that even Ho Chi Minh City and Jakarta are more expensive than Singapore.
Rank 2004 City Country Index 2004
1 Tokyo Japan 130.7
4 Osaka Japan 116.1
5 Hong Kong 109.5
7 Seoul South Korea 104.1
11 Beijing China 101.1
16 Shanghai China 95.3
20 Sydney Australia 91.8
29 Hanoi Vietnam 85.6
30 Shenzhen China 85.6
31 Taipei Taiwan 85.3
32 Guangzhou China 84.9
36 Ho Chi Minh City Vietnam 84.5
45 Jakarta Indonesia 83.9
46 Singapore 83.6
67 Melbourne Australia 77.5
80 Auckland New Zealand 74.2
86 Wellington New Zealand 72.8
87 Brisbane Australia 72.7
88 Adelaide Australia 72
94 Perth Australia 70.7
104 Kuala Lumpur Malaysia 67.7
109 Mumbai India 66.8
115 Tianjin China 65.6
116 New Delhi India 64.7
117 Dacca (Dhaka) Bangladesh 64
119 Bangkok Thailand 63.5
127 Colombo Sri Lanka 60.4
132 Karachi Pakistan 56.3
133 Chennai (Madras) India 54.2
137 Bangalore India 51.1
138 Manila Philippines 48.8 -
You are certainly right to be skeptical. I would be too. You can go to mercer webpage to see the details of how this survey is done. You need to register though. You can even ask for a result using different weightage if you are interested (you need to pay for this service though). A point to note is that in my search for this information, it is noted though that most of the webpage seems to derive information from this source anyway. Just search on google using "global cost of living ranking" and you will get several webpages which eventually points to this source. So, I guess it means it is reputable enough. If you can find other sources, let me know. We can always compare varies result from more than one sources. Only point to note that each source must be reputable and professional.Originally posted by goh meng seng:Dear Qitai,
I always take caution when looking at such "surveys". Who are the people being surveyed and what are the priorities are in their list? If these people "travel" alot within the places, then transportation cost will be given higher weightage. Singapore, being a small country, will definitely "cost less" simply because the cost of travelling from one end to another is determined by the size of the country/place.
Thus, it is NOT surprising that Jarkarta or Ho Chi Minh city may appear to be more expensive than Singapore; Or even Shenzhen, if you want to travel from one point to another, the distance we are talking about is normally above 100km! And within one day, you could have done many of these trips!
And if this survey is taken from expatriate or according to expatriates' lifestyle, of course, it doesn't reflect the real cost of living for the people there. It is really stupid to believe that people in China or Ho Chih Ming city could possibly sustain a high cost of living when they earn so much lesser than Singaporeans!
Thus, my first reaction to this survey is that, this survery is about cost of living for expatriates living in these cities. I have been to China, quite many places and experience the "normal people" lifestyle. The cost of having a meal could be extremely expensive, or that extremely cheap; depending on where you eat.
Goh Meng Seng
Anyway, even that, I still agree with you that it is best to get a hands-on experience and talked to local about the actual living condition rather than just these surveys. This is also why I like to talk to people from differenet countries on their cost of living. The man-on-the-street will usually be very frank about the cost there (mostly complaining). Making home visits and getting my hands on the property, cars etc brochure is also part of the things I do/collect while traveling.
Once you have done that, you may realize that actually Singapore is very good compare to a lot of countries. At least my comparison mostly ends up Singapore being in quite a favourable position.
Since you have been to China, do you think the income compared to the cost is better over there? And what is the typical income over there as well as the typical cost of living? Or for that matter, any country that you are quite knowledgable about. -
go search "web page promotion"...Originally posted by Qitai:You are certainly right to be skeptical. I would be too. You can go to mercer webpage to see the details of how this survey is done. You need to register though. You can even ask for a result using different weightage if you are interested (you need to pay for this service though). A point to note is that in my search for this information, it is noted though that most of the webpage seems to derive information from this source anyway. Just search on google using "global cost of living ranking" and you will get several webpages which eventually points to this source. So, I guess it means it is reputable enough. If you can find other sources, let me know. We can always compare varies result from more than one sources. Only point to note that each source must be reputable and professional.
Anyway, even that, I still agree with you that it is best to get a hands-on experience and talked to local about the actual living condition rather than just these surveys. This is also why I like to talk to people from differenet countries on their cost of living. The man-on-the-street will usually be very frank about the cost there (mostly complaining). Making home visits and getting my hands on the property, cars etc brochure is also part of the things I do/collect while traveling.
Once you have done that, you may realize that actually Singapore is very good compare to a lot of countries. At least my comparison mostly ends up Singapore being in quite a favourable position.
Since you have been to China, do you think the income compared to the cost is better over there? And what is the typical income over there as well as the typical cost of living? Or for that matter, any country that you are quite knowledgable about. -
Understand what you mean. Getting hit on the google is easy. But when several other websites quote figures from the same source it is different (Note: This is different from just links, we are talking about actually publishing survey results from another site, not just links). You can look around further too to see that these are about the only recently publish figures, so that means there are not much other alternatives.Originally posted by pikamaster:go search "web page promotion"... -
you know, there are such things as groups of websites...Originally posted by Qitai:Understand what you mean. Getting hit on the google is easy. But when several other websites quote figures from the same source it is different (Note: This is different from just links, we are talking about actually publishing survey results from another site, not just links). You can look around further too to see that these are about the only recently publish figures, so that means there are not much other alternatives. -
Aiya, don't want to try to convince you liao lah. Maybe you are right. But give you figure you don't want to believe without bothering to take a look at it, what can I do. In this case, you will only hear what you want to hear loh. What else can I say.Originally posted by pikamaster:you know, there are such things as groups of websites... -
If you have any good ideas go ahead and bring them out here. If someone copied them later, at least ppl will know that the idea originated from you. If you are so petty and narrow-minded as to keep good ideas to yourself for the sake of claiming credit later on, I dont see why ppl shd support you.Originally posted by goh meng seng:Dear paperchicken,
The profile here is very limited. My detailed profile can be found in yahoo, search for the profile of [email protected] try this link:
http://profiles.yahoo.com/madcow8888
I am just new here and I am involved in quite a number of forums. Workers Party has an internal forum, discuss-singapore, YPAP and I used to be active in soc.culture.singapore. My purpose of participating in forums like this one is not to show off my views but to engage people like you, to make you understand the need and the development of the alternative political parties like Workers Party. As for views on how to improve the country, I will leave that to our party's release of manifesto in the near future. It is tactically and strategically not sound for me to throw all my views here as there are already ample cases that PAP has copied ideas and take credits as theirs. We will not want to let the million dollar ministers or billion dollars civil service to turn into a machinery of ideas copier.
If you want examples of what ideas of mine have been used by PAP, let me know. I will give you the latest idea used to make PAP looks good.
Someone use my name in Sammyboy forum? I have been trying to access Sammyboy's forum from Hong Kong, where I am stationed for the moment, but I couldn't get through.
Goh Meng Seng -
Dear Paperchicken,
Nah, I don't think it works that way.
We are definitely not that "petty", but for ideas, it would be more appropriate to put it up in a former manner. Our manifesto is in the process of being published.
Even when PAP hits so hard on Dr. Chee, Chee also got some pretty good ideas back in the 90s, which some, are being hijacked by PAP without acknowledgement. So what if it is published.. you may ask. Well, at least people could see for themselves, at a larger perspective.
PAP leaders are paid millions to do their job and if they are so petty and say that there is no reason why they should help opposition to grow, why would you expect opposition to help them solve problems? Double standards or what? And the fact is, even after we give them ideas, there is never a thank you or acknowledgement! The only time when they mildly acknowledge their own inadequacy is by saying " We acknowledge that we don't have the monopoly of knowledge and answers..." that's all!
You cannot have your cake and eat it. That's what PAP needs to learn. I have shared enough of my ideas in the past and definitely do not deserve to be call "petty". It is time for us to utilize our little resources, like our brainy ideas, for something more fruitful.
For your information, do you know why PAP suddenly talks about inclusiveness, asking Singaporeans to take Ownership of this country...etc etc.? Whose idea was it? PAP's? Hahaha.. I could safely say that this is my original idea, posted in soc.culture.singapore back in 2002 and 2003. This was raised against Goh Chok Tong's "Stayer and Quitter" remark. But who knows? No use lah!
The concept of "ownership" for Singaporeans is never about Singaporeans participating in civic, civil groups or political activism. The concept of "ownserhsip" by PAP was very well established when Goh CT took over PMship over one decade ago. Remember he mentioned about Singaporeans to be "asset rich" so that they would feel close to Singapore, having a "stake" in Singapore? That's when SingTel shares were distributed... that's when your HDB flats sudden shot up in value overnight.... The concept of ownership, like other political concepts of PAP, is based on materialism alone! As far as the exercise of ownership by means of getting involved in the moulding of this country is concerned, it was the ownership by PAP alone! Singaporeans only provided the ownership in materialistic terms!
This concept has extended to linking voting to HDB upgrading and things like that. And this concept has done a great disservice to Singapore and we have suffered a huge exodus (relative to the size of a small country like Singapore) for that one whole decade, until PAP cannot tahan, and start to label people "Stayers and Quitters"!
If you are interested, goto google and search the newsgroup for postings with keyword "MADCOW Ownership".
Goh Meng SengOriginally posted by paperchicken:If you have any good ideas go ahead and bring them out here. If someone copied them later, at least ppl will know that the idea originated from you. If you are so petty and narrow-minded as to keep good ideas to yourself for the sake of claiming credit later on, I dont see why ppl shd support you. -
Different ppl can come up with the same ideas or similar ideas at the same time. The fact is that you are selfish and narrow-minded and full of hot air and excuses and think too highly of yourself. If you run for elections I will tell people I know not to vote for you.Originally posted by goh meng seng:Dear Paperchicken,
Nah, I don't think it works that way.
We are definitely not that "petty", but for ideas, it would be more appropriate to put it up in a former manner. Our manifesto is in the process of being published.
Even when PAP hits so hard on Dr. Chee, Chee also got some pretty good ideas back in the 90s, which some, are being hijacked by PAP without acknowledgement. So what if it is published.. you may ask. Well, at least people could see for themselves, at a larger perspective.
PAP leaders are paid millions to do their job and if they are so petty and say that there is no reason why they should help opposition to grow, why would you expect opposition to help them solve problems? Double standards or what? And the fact is, even after we give them ideas, there is never a thank you or acknowledgement! The only time when they mildly acknowledge their own inadequacy is by saying " We acknowledge that we don't have the monopoly of knowledge and answers..." that's all!
You cannot have your cake and eat it. That's what PAP needs to learn. I have shared enough of my ideas in the past and definitely do not deserve to be call "petty". It is time for us to utilize our little resources, like our brainy ideas, for something more fruitful.
For your information, do you know why PAP suddenly talks about inclusiveness, asking Singaporeans to take Ownership of this country...etc etc.? Whose idea was it? PAP's? Hahaha.. I could safely say that this is my original idea, posted in soc.culture.singapore back in 2002 and 2003. This was raised against Goh Chok Tong's "Stayer and Quitter" remark. But who knows? No use lah!
The concept of "ownership" for Singaporeans is never about Singaporeans participating in civic, civil groups or political activism. The concept of "ownserhsip" by PAP was very well established when Goh CT took over PMship over one decade ago. Remember he mentioned about Singaporeans to be "asset rich" so that they would feel close to Singapore, having a "stake" in Singapore? That's when SingTel shares were distributed... that's when your HDB flats sudden shot up in value overnight.... The concept of ownership, like other political concepts of PAP, is based on materialism alone! As far as the exercise of ownership by means of getting involved in the moulding of this country is concerned, it was the ownership by PAP alone! Singaporeans only provided the ownership in materialistic terms!
This concept has extended to linking voting to HDB upgrading and things like that. And this concept has done a great disservice to Singapore and we have suffered a huge exodus (relative to the size of a small country like Singapore) for that one whole decade, until PAP cannot tahan, and start to label people "Stayers and Quitters"!
If you are interested, goto google and search the newsgroup for postings with keyword "MADCOW Ownership".
Goh Meng Seng