Indon Election
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The final result is expected to be declared on October 5. -
At last Indonesia has accepted democracy. Its people will now have hopes of progress even though the road may be long and full of uncertainties.
Politicians will be brought under control of scrutiny under democratic system. Corruptions and nepotism in the long term will be minimized and checked.
The best leaders elected under universal one-man one vote system will have to work towards satifying people's needs and aspirations. If they are not good enough, they will be thrown out in the next election.
Under democratic system, where basic principles and good practices like the 7 points posted in "definition of true democracy" no one will be able tamper with the voting or election processes, and there will be no necessity to justify individualism or social theories or marshaling the armies to control unrest, dissenting views or opinions arising out of inefficiencies or problems. People will at the end decide who are the real leaders they want to lead their countries instead of allowing the leaders to presume themselves on the people based on all kinds of assumptions or justifications
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India is a democratic country. Yet it still have corruption.
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What would India have become if it had not got democracy?Originally posted by paperchicken:India is a democratic country. Yet it still have corruption. -
i dunno.. hypothetical questions don't matter in the real world...Originally posted by robertteh:What would India have become if it had not got democracy?
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China is not a democracy but its economic progess is ahead of India.Originally posted by robertteh:What would India have become if it had not got democracy? -
i only wanna hear ur guys opinions..
will it make any differents for sg (n th rest of the world) if the coming president is SBY or Megawati ? -
I think it will be the same.Originally posted by Maya061:i only wanna hear ur guys opinions..
will it make any differents for sg (n th rest of the world) if the coming president is SBY or Megawati ? -
What would China have become if it is opening up and liberalizing towards a more democratic country with popular election and mass participation in governance.Originally posted by paperchicken:China is not a democracy but its economic progess is ahead of India.
What would it have become if it remains centrally controlled and refused to open up to democratic practices in another 10 years? -
and ur reasons for saying that pls..Originally posted by paperchicken:I think it will be the same. -
The indonesians think there will be no difference. Many of them are comparing the time of suharto and post suharto era. Past few years of "democracy" had not given them better lives, in fact, lives were worse. Now they just want a strong leader, get rid of the terrorists, give everybody a job, corruption? unless the wealth of the country has already been given to the people, taking money from the country means nothing to the people!! Corruption will gradually disappear with the appearance of democracy? The Indonesians don't believe that, do you??Originally posted by Maya061:i only wanna hear ur guys opinions..
will it make any differents for sg (n th rest of the world) if the coming president is SBY or Megawati ? -
because the views of the two are similar both want to bring about progress for the country and improve the lifes of the ppl.Originally posted by Maya061:and ur reasons for saying that pls..
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USSR opened up politically, see what happened! Imaging China holding election like Taiwan. Fortunately China didn't follow the USSR, they opened up economically, not politically!!Originally posted by robertteh:What would China have become if it is opening up and liberalizing towards a more democratic country with popular election and mass participation in governance.
What would it have become if it remains centrally controlled and refused to open up to democratic practices in another 10 years? 
USA would love to see china open up politically and break up, different provinces become different countries.
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Are you saying that USSR collapsed due to democracy?Originally posted by sgdiehard:USSR opened up politically, see what happened! Imaging China holding election like Taiwan. Fortunately China didn't follow the USSR, they opened up economically, not politically!!
USA would love to see china open up politically and break up, different provinces become different countries.
I would think that its collapse was caused by dictatorship or centrally controlled systems which went wrong reaching the climax of dissensions at the point when Gorbuchev took over. Gorbucheve became the fall guy to take all the blames. Even if Gorbuchev had introduced democracy at that point, it was too late to rescue the nation.
If democracy has been tried earlier in USSR, it could have saved the nation as social discontentments could have been gradually released or contained through free elections, rights of choices, due process and exercise of people judgments. -
Shld SBY manage to defeat incumbent Mega, it could pave the way for the emergence of the military in Indonesian politics... personally, i'm not quite comfortable with the trend towards military dictatorship...
and SBY remains avowed to fight terrorism at all costs. His hardliners stance could invoke further attacks and militarism from the terrorists...
what dya think -
The political ideology called communism formed the union, USSR. The union reached the verge of collapse as the political ideology was proven to be too idealistics. The hasty implementation of the idealistic system called democracy copied wholesale, accelerated the process leading to the final collapse. Does anybody know when and how to introduce democracy to the country with the largest territory in the world, with the widest difference in ethnicities and with the world's third largest population?Originally posted by robertteh:Are you saying that USSR collapsed due to democracy?
I would think that its collapse was caused by dictatorship or centrally controlled systems which went wrong reaching the climax of dissensions at the point when Gorbuchev took over. Gorbucheve became the fall guy to take all the blames. Even if Gorbuchev had introduced democracy at that point, it was too late to rescue the nation.
If democracy has been tried earlier in USSR, it could have saved the nation as social discontentments could have been gradually released or contained through free elections, rights of choices, due process and exercise of people judgments. The americans are obviously having big big problem doing that for a small small country called Iraq.
Exposing a man who have been living in complete darkness for an extended period of time, to a bright afternoon sun all of a sudden, will only and surely result in blindness. -
So you did not disagree that USSR was a communist dictatorship or centrally planned country.Originally posted by sgdiehard:The political ideology called communism formed the union, USSR. The union reached the verge of collapse as the political ideology was proven to be too idealistics. The hasty implementation of the idealistic system called democracy copied wholesale, accelerated the process leading to the final collapse. Does anybody know when and how to introduce democracy to the country with the largest territory in the world, with the widest difference in ethnicities and with the world's third largest population? The americans are obviously having big big problem doing that for a small small country called Iraq.
Exposing a man who have been living in complete darkness for an extended period of time, to a bright afternoon sun all of a sudden, will only and surely result in blindness.
You did not attribute its fall or collapse to democracy after all.
The underlying social and political problems due to dictatorship and central control in the case of USSR were well documented in all the news and journals. USSR suffered from the same fate as those other systems run by a few leaders who are other than popularly or fairly elected.
All the fears expressed about democratisation are unreal and unproven. China can gradually open up to become democratic eventually to avoid "bright sunshine" hitting the sensitive eyes of people shrouded in darkness as you have described. So, there you are, in the same manner, Iraq will eventually benefit from democracy. The outburst against democracy appears to be unsubstantiated in facts and history. -
It is clear in history that USSR came under the dictatorship of Lenin, stalin, Khrushchev.. and the communists since 1918. There is no question that communism practises centrally planned and controlled economy. But the collapse of USSR was the result of the breaking away of the republics, all declaring independence. Whether or not all are practising the "true democracy" or not I don't know, but the lives in the various republics, including Russia, have not seen any improvement.Originally posted by robertteh:So you did not disagree that USSR was a communist dictatorship or centrally planned country.
You did not attribute its fall or collapse to democracy after all.
The underlying social and political problems due to dictatorship and central control in the case of USSR were well documented in all the news and journals. USSR suffered from the same fate as those other systems run by a few leaders who are other than popularly or fairly elected.
All the fears expressed about democratisation are unreal and unproven. China can gradually open up to become democratic eventually to avoid "bright sunshine" hitting the sensitive eyes of people shrouded in darkness as you have described. So, there you are, in the same manner, Iraq will eventually benefit from democracy. The outburst against democracy appears to be unsubstantiated in facts and history.
It is obvious that situation in China is completely different from that in Iraq, they have also taken completely different route to where they are today, I therefore do not see how you conclude that "in the same manner, Iraq will eventually benefit from democracy." I certainly hope that peace will eventually come to Iraq, but in the meantime, when this "true american democracy" is being introduced, the innocent Iraqis are dying everyday, along with some US GI.
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Robert: You can go get your democracy in Philipines. The Philipino maids in Singapore sure did enjoy their democracy back home.
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http://tnp.kpu.go.id/ Official website for the latest counting result
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Well, how about his vice president Jusuf Kalla?Originally posted by devoid05:Shld SBY manage to defeat incumbent Mega, it could pave the way for the emergence of the military in Indonesian politics... personally, i'm not quite comfortable with the trend towards military dictatorship...
and SBY remains avowed to fight terrorism at all costs. His hardliners stance could invoke further attacks and militarism from the terrorists...
what dya think
Heard that chinese community in indonesia are worried about him. -
Well, i read from http://www.thejakartapost.com/yesterdaydetail.asp?fileid=20040818.E03 that he prefers bumiputera businessman to chinese businessman. Maybe that is what you mean?Originally posted by asantosa:Well, how about his vice president Jusuf Kalla?
Heard that chinese community in indonesia are worried about him.
The chinese still controls much of business activity and some degree of power in Indonesia, it will be hard to surpress them anyway. The economy may be disrupted should he do that. The government sure does not want another exodus of Chinese communty's fund overseas, as what happened in 1998.
On the other hand, jusuf kalla should not be a problem.
Although he was a former Golkar member and also linked to NU (indo's largest Islamist organisation), he has experience in business & trade sector. -
Do you mean some central control system or dictatorship under Macos or any other pseudo-democracy with immerging of controls would have done better for Philippines ?Originally posted by Qitai:Robert: You can go get your democracy in Philipines. The Philipino maids in Singapore sure did enjoy their democracy back home.
Do you mean that some great communitarian democracy (not sure this type can be termed democracy) or other centrally controlled system, will excel as compared with democratic system?
I have answered to such queries posed by pro-control critics (also anti-democracy critics) that democracies such as Taiwanese and Philippines are having problems.
The fact that such countries are experiencing problems with democracy due to certain shortcomings or problems of implementation does not establish your criticism against democracy or liberal democracy.
Selective comparison that Philippines does not do well in democracy does not lead to the conclusion democracy has failed as such or is less desirable or that there are better systems.
It is noted that critics of democracy have been claiming that western democracy was not suitable for certain countries for various reasons but they so far cannot deny that many countries are trying to take that route.
Democracy on the other hand has been used for control to suit individuals are obvious leading to chaos or serious problems. Wise leaders of any such pseudo-democracy will need to do something to tamper and change the harshness of control rules before causing more problems.
Indonesia is right to take the path of democracy. It will take time and patience as Rome was not built in one day. Ultimately, democracy will provide better answer to people's aspirations or needs as under controls system under any kinds of guises, there will be collapses.
Critics of democracy so far could not answer my repeated requests to propose a model or system that is more desirable under any particular circumstance or prove there democracy does not work but had only continue to make selective comparisons to suit their criticism of democracy.
If there is any non-democratic system or communitarian democracy (not proven to be democracy) that do better that can be upheld as model or preferred to provide for better governance or stability, let the critics propose the model.
Without answering my two questions, and by continuing to harp heritage or contextural or contingent system, critics of democracy are getting nowhere.
Finally, if you want to insist that democracy has failed or is undesirable for Philippines or Singapore, please do a total comparison of all performances between democratic and non-democratic (including sprouts of purported democratic copies) systems so that comparisons will be more objective. Have you tried to do this exercise so far? -
from STI
JAKARTA (Indonesia) - Former general Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono took an unassailable lead on Thursday in Indonesia's presidential elections, official data showed, as the defeated incumbent president prepared to make her first public address since the polls.
With 104 million of the estimated 120 million votes counted, Mr Bambang had 61 per cent to President Megawati Sukarnoputri's 39 per cent, according to the General Election Commission.
Despite this, Ms Megawati said she would not concede until official results were announced. That is scheduled to take place on Oct 5, but given the quick pace of vote counting could happen earlier. Mr Bambang said he would not formally claim victory until the tally was complete.
Ms Megawati was scheduled to deliver an accountability speech to Indonesia's top legislative body, the People's Consultative Embassy, later on Thursday.
The speech, which has been long scheduled, will be the taciturn leader's first public appearance since Monday's election, which passed off peacefully and has been free of allegations of irregularities.
Mr Bambang has not left his house on the outskirts of Jakarta, where aides say he is considering possible Cabinet lineups and new government policies, since the ballots were cast.
Analysts have called on him to move quickly to establish his reformist credentials and reassure the business community by naming a new attorney general and finance minister.
Indonesia is saddled with almost 40 per cent unemployment and rampant corruption, and has been hit by three terror attacks by Al-Qaeda linked militants in the past two years. -- AP -
Robert: I am sick of hearing all the excuses. The fact, regardless of the actual reason, the countries who listen to USA and goes into a rush for democracies did not exactly became better in the end. I do not think democracy is bad, but just sick of the endless promotion of democracy from you. And I am never a fan of USA type of democracy. You can go back to your democracy thread to discuss that.