Sound Barriers for Highways and MRT
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are you so stupid that you cant tell ?Originally posted by Chia Ti Lik:So papertiger
is that your answer or are you answering for the tank, the bus and the chick?
Is the the offical position on the matter? is your statement backed up by facts?
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Not you, refering to Mr. Goh.Originally posted by Chia Ti Lik:Qitai
see which topic did i start.
Dun let this be a case of the blind following the blind... -
You must follow the conversation between me and papertiger lah. Anyway, look post above, talking about Mr. Goh Meng Seng lah.Originally posted by Chia Ti Lik:Just to highlight the inaccuracies in your statement
1) Which topic did i start?
2) Did i say i dont want to research
3) Did i say its wrong?
4) People doing the work become very busy one. Did i say anyting to the contrary?
5) Who did i sabo?
6) How did i sabo? -
That's utterly rubbish to me.Originally posted by CenturionMBT:So from this post, opposition parties are formed just to go against the main party and not to serve the people. If that is the case, i rest my case. Until the day i see a opposition party start doing things for the people, i have nothing to say.
Even your quotes from the sources, it proves NOTHING!
The experiments and assertions are made as individual studies, not comparative studies. Obviously you are misleading readers here.
For example, if the studies for the trees are such that the noise level are raised up to 45db and then they say it reduces 15db. But the studies for the noise barriers are 20db but it reduces 10db. Which one is more effective?
Comparative studies must be done accordingly. Besides, there are many designs of artificial noise barriers. Your comparison is not exhaustive at all.
On the other hand, the website that you are quotation is basically a green movement website, trying the justify the merits of having more trees and trying to make out the "additional" benefits of having trees.
I quote:
"A well-placed stand of trees can reduce noise by up to 15 decibels, approximately that provided by a typical sound barrier."
This assertion is made without providing the scientific details of how such level of reduction could be achieved. "A well-placed stand of trees"? What does that mean?
If you really want to know how effective artificial sound barriers are, please refer to the following guide. It has a table that provides the types of material used, with certain thickness and the effectiveness of the barriers.
http://www.epd.gov.hk/epd/english/environmentinhk/noise/guide_ref/design_barriers_content2.html
I quote:
"In terms of noise reduction, the maximum value that can be achieved theoretically is 20 dB(A) for thin screens (walls) and 23 dB(A) for berms. A material that has a TL of 33 dB(A) or greater would therefore always be adequate for a noise barrier in any situation."
You have to face it, your attempt of providing misleading information to justify your case is really silly. And to use it to conclude that opposition is opposing for the sake of opposing, is even more silly.
Goh Meng Seng -
let's put it this way guys, whatever the government does, the so called "thinking for the people" Opposition will pounce on them like a b.itch on heat.
when the government suggested building a barrier to prevent more suicide, the opposition rose up in arms, claiming that the government wasn't thinking of the people by building such extravagant barriers.
now, mr Goh Meng Seng whom claims to be from the WP, has came up with this wonderful idea to build sound barriers around the MRTs station. i'm very sure this is feasible. there are more than 40 stations in Singapore, and more than half are above ground, so if we were to install sound barriers around them, i'm sure the costs are definately more than mere.
if you were really thinking for us, mr Opposition i'm sure you would realise that the noise level of the MRTs are already kept to a minimum. after all, friction will create noise no matter how sophisticated you go. even bullet trains causes sound effects to be generated. this is by the friction between the train and the air.
if you are really for the people Mr Goh Meng Seng, you would not try to hide an hidden agenda in the first post you made.I think this is partly due to the style of governance. PAP government is simply not a human orientated government, but it governs by digits and statistics. A world class city should have world class human orientated governance.
this is simply a very cheap attempt at disguising your main purpose. this is also a very cheap attempt to discredit the government. the MRT has helped normal singaporeans more than wad LTK or CST has ever done in their life time. so don't make the noises from the MRT sounds as though it's a sin.
We just need more human touch in our dealings with our people.
i believe the opposition should do more than just complain and make stupid remarks defaming the government. instead they should just sit back and look around, and see if all this is possible if the opposition is in power. they can't even agree on a similar agenda between themselves, how are we to have SOUND economic policies?
cheap. -
To runningismylife :
relax lah. Uncle Goh is just bringing up a topic for discussing. I think there's no need to get personal. It always good to bring up new ideas for discussion and think out of the box. Some ideas may not be feasible but by throwing a bad idea around we may be able to modify it and come up with something better or other new ideas.
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That is not true at all.
We understand, as a govt, it cannot possibly please everybody. What we are examining, is whether its decisions are sound or not.
From my point of view, black cat, white cat, whichever catch the rat is good cat. I don't really insist MRT must put up barriers; but, we must value the time delayed caused by such suicides. There is opportunity cost to the hour delay due to such things. The only "economic" thing to do, is to put a price on it. Fine MRT for the delays.
If MRT thinks that it is still "economical" not to put up the barriers, then be it. They take that risks. If someone jump the tracks and cause delays, then MRT pays the fine. Simple as that. This is their commercial decision under such pricing mechanism.
I only suggest to build sound barriers for MRT tracks and highways NEAR or next to residential areas; not the whole MRT tracks or whole highways. Please take note. If other countries and places could do it, why we can't?
These are design flaws. They didn't think of it when they build such things. The new tracks and stations built here in Hong Kong have physical barriers and sound barriers. People could think of it in advance, why couldn't our "million dollar" ministers?
If the govt didn't do a good job, just admit it. Make remedies to them. No problem at all. Nobody is perfect, no one should expect any govt to be perfect at all. But it is our job to keep the govt in checks, providing the alternative views. Singaporeans are a good tolerant people; but don't mistake tolerance as something else. They might just be suffering in silence. There are already "silent sufferers" leaving this country in hordes; a true exodus.
If you see my suggestions here as something to "discredit" the govt, please lah, that's pretty lame excuse to cover the inadequacies of the govt! If the govt doesn't see any problem at all, they will not solve any problems. Simple as that. But that doesn't really mean there isn't really any problem. The Emperor's clothing, heard of it?
You keep saying MRT noise kept to a "minimum"...what "minimum"? My shop is just opposite the MRT track and I hear screeching sound everyday! If that is what you meant by "minimum", then sorry, that's unacceptable. People are just suffering in silence, that's all.
Goh Meng SengOriginally posted by runningismylife:let's put it this way guys, whatever the government does, the so called "thinking for the people" Opposition will pounce on them like a b.itch on heat.
when the government suggested building a barrier to prevent more suicide, the opposition rose up in arms, claiming that the government wasn't thinking of the people by building such extravagant barriers.
now, mr Goh Meng Seng whom claims to be from the WP, has came up with this wonderful idea to build sound barriers around the MRTs station. i'm very sure this is feasible. there are more than 40 stations in Singapore, and more than half are above ground, so if we were to install sound barriers around them, i'm sure the costs are definately more than mere.
if you were really thinking for us, mr Opposition i'm sure you would realise that the noise level of the MRTs are already kept to a minimum. after all, friction will create noise no matter how sophisticated you go. even bullet trains causes sound effects to be generated. this is by the friction between the train and the air.
if you are really for the people Mr Goh Meng Seng, you would not try to hide an hidden agenda in the first post you made.
this is simply a very cheap attempt at disguising your main purpose. this is also a very cheap attempt to discredit the government. the MRT has helped normal singaporeans more than wad LTK or CST has ever done in their life time. so don't make the noises from the MRT sounds as though it's a sin.
i believe the opposition should do more than just complain and make stupid remarks defaming the government. instead they should just sit back and look around, and see if all this is possible if the opposition is in power. they can't even agree on a similar agenda between themselves, how are we to have SOUND economic policies?
cheap. -
Well PAP er TigerOriginally posted by papertiger:are you so stupid that you cant tell ? 
is calling me stupid your best shot at me?
your answer is not clear so you can't blame me.
The rest have kept silent so that is why i asked you.
It is sad that you are resorting to personal attacks when questioned for sake of clarity. Are you saying that i cannot question you?
Try harder
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How come every time I ask question no body answer one?
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next time you must add in your post : This question is for ......Originally posted by Qitai:How come every time I ask question no body answer one? -
Dear Qitai,
Since you say I didn't answer your question, I will do it now.
If you want to have a detailed study on this, there are alot on the internet. I have just given a very good link in my response to some misleading information. These are done by academics in Hong Kong, with regard to the effectiveness of noise barriers, using different materials. However, if you are asking me to do a study in Singapore, please lah, this is the govt's job! I don't pretend to be the govt when I am not! Unless the govt is willing commission a study on this, fund this project, then I may do my best helping with the study, even though I am not a trained engineer, I think I could contribute. That's what govt is for! To provide "public goods" such as infrastrucutres and such. One must understand the role of govt before we expect everyone to become govt.
If the workings of a government is based on "complains" from Singaporeans, then that's very sad. That's the would be the most ineffective govt. For problems we cannot see, we depend on feedbacks. For problems we spot, we solve it through our own initiatvies. Simple as that.
The most common misconceptions of Singaporeans are that when they vote for anyone, they expect them to be expert in everything; for opposition, they expect them to become govt! Hey, the whole govt is run by civil service! That's what parliamentary democracy is all about! Those ministers are decision makers, giving directions BASED ON whatever information the civil servants provide them! They do not necessary know every bolts and knots of the ministry!
You may not be affected by such noise level, but there is a simple way you could find out whether it is acceptable to you. Goto AMK MRT station, walk to blk 50X, sit down there for a couple of hours in the afternoon. OR just take a look at your street directory. Look for the block built in Simei which is just next to the highway. Visit that place, sit down there.
PAP has many resources to do their own research. We don't. But empathy is what I have because I am more aware of my surroundings, more aware of the problems my fellow Singaporeans face which most of the time, they prefer to suffer in silence.
Goh Meng SengOriginally posted by Qitai:Since you are in opposition, can you do a more detailed study on this? Like what is the noise level now? What is the recognized acceptable noise level? What are the cost of building all these? Are there any significant genuine complain from resident? Etc...
A simple statement of if ABC is doing it, why shouldn't we do it is a far-stretched justification I think. -
I dun expect the opposition to be an expert in everything but dun expect me to support an opposition thats good for nothing.
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Then, pray tell, how do you know the opposition is "good for nothing"? While PAP MPs are good for everything?
Goh Meng SengOriginally posted by papertiger:I dun expect the opposition to be an expert in everything but dun expect me to support an opposition thats good for nothing. -
the issue of sound barrier is raised by you and now you say the govt shd do the relevant studies. another forummer here has shown you research done in other country yet you choose to turn a blind eye to it. we really must pray if ppl like you and your fren get elected.Originally posted by goh meng seng:Then, pray tell, how do you know the opposition is "good for nothing"? While PAP MPs are good for everything?
Goh Meng Seng -
Where did I turn a blind eye to that "research"? I have already debunk such misleading information, by providing a link on a relatively exhaustive one. Please read carefully before you say I turn a blind eye to his "research" which is utterly rubbish, by any academic standards. I have quoted a reliable Hong Kong gov sources to debunk his assertion that trees could be better than physical noise barrier ! And the so call "research" he has quoted is from a green movement website which is not an expert in noise barrier but just mentioning trees could be used as noise barrier "in certain ways"!
If this is the type of attitude you are going to hold, you are simply bias.
And it is a fact that the govt owes the citizen the duty to provide public goods like roads, basic infrastructures, including noise barriers!
You assertion that we have to provide with the detailed study if we bring it up is utterly nonsense. It is just like anyone who bring up any ideas must provide the studies as well! Govt is empowered to collect taxes from the citizens, thus, tasked to take care of the citizens. Feasibility studies are commissioned every now and then, for whatever ideas. If you hold such attitudes, then nobody will need to provide any ideas at all! Why? Because nobody would have the resources to do feasibility studies for every ideas they have...thus, by your logic, better shut up? No wonder you expect opposition to be good for nothing! You have already set the barriers on it!
I will repost my reply to his assertion:
Quote:
That's utterly rubbish to me.
Even your quotes from the sources, it proves NOTHING!
The experiments and assertions are made as individual studies, not comparative studies. Obviously you are misleading readers here.
For example, if the studies for the trees are such that the noise level are raised up to 45db and then they say it reduces 15db. But the studies for the noise barriers are 20db but it reduces 10db. Which one is more effective?
Comparative studies must be done accordingly. Besides, there are many designs of artificial noise barriers. Your comparison is not exhaustive at all.
On the other hand, the website that you are quotation is basically a green movement website, trying the justify the merits of having more trees and trying to make out the "additional" benefits of having trees.
I quote:
"A well-placed stand of trees can reduce noise by up to 15 decibels, approximately that provided by a typical sound barrier."
This assertion is made without providing the scientific details of how such level of reduction could be achieved. "A well-placed stand of trees"? What does that mean?
If you really want to know how effective artificial sound barriers are, please refer to the following guide. It has a table that provides the types of material used, with certain thickness and the effectiveness of the barriers.
http://www.epd.gov.hk/epd/english/environmentinhk/noise/guide_ref/design_barriers_content2.html
I quote:
"In terms of noise reduction, the maximum value that can be achieved theoretically is 20 dB(A) for thin screens (walls) and 23 dB(A) for berms. A material that has a TL of 33 dB(A) or greater would therefore always be adequate for a noise barrier in any situation."
You have to face it, your attempt of providing misleading information to justify your case is really silly. And to use it to conclude that opposition is opposing for the sake of opposing, is even more silly. QuoteOriginally posted by papertiger:the issue of sound barrier is raised by you and now you say the govt shd do the relevant studies. another forummer here has shown you research done in other country yet you choose to turn a blind eye to it. we really must pray if ppl like you and your fren get elected. -
you are the one who's full of rubbish.
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runningismylifeOriginally posted by runningismylife:let's put it this way guys, whatever the government does, the so called "thinking for the people" Opposition will pounce on them like a b.itch on heat.
when the government suggested building a barrier to prevent more suicide, the opposition rose up in arms, claiming that the government wasn't thinking of the people by building such extravagant barriers.
now, mr Goh Meng Seng whom claims to be from the WP, has came up with this wonderful idea to build sound barriers around the MRTs station. i'm very sure this is feasible. there are more than 40 stations in Singapore, and more than half are above ground, so if we were to install sound barriers around them, i'm sure the costs are definately more than mere.
if you were really thinking for us, mr Opposition i'm sure you would realise that the noise level of the MRTs are already kept to a minimum. after all, friction will create noise no matter how sophisticated you go. even bullet trains causes sound effects to be generated. this is by the friction between the train and the air.
if you are really for the people Mr Goh Meng Seng, you would not try to hide an hidden agenda in the first post you made.
this is simply a very cheap attempt at disguising your main purpose. this is also a very cheap attempt to discredit the government. the MRT has helped normal singaporeans more than wad LTK or CST has ever done in their life time. so don't make the noises from the MRT sounds as though it's a sin.
i believe the opposition should do more than just complain and make stupid remarks defaming the government. instead they should just sit back and look around, and see if all this is possible if the opposition is in power. they can't even agree on a similar agenda between themselves, how are we to have SOUND economic policies?
cheap.
You used pretty strong language in this post so here are some questions for you:
1. List out all the incidents to say that whatever the govt. does, the opposition will pounce on it @#@$#@#. (my my what language!)
2. How the opposition rise up in arms, whom amongst the opposition did it?
3. Commonsense will tell you that building barriers will involve cost. But the thinking mind tells you that the MRT in making substantial profit can be pressured to absorb the cost for the safety of the people. Is that too much to ask?
Or are you saying that you can never expect the MRT line built using the StateÂ’s money and thereafter run on a commercial basis for profit upon finding out that their platform system is not entirely safe and upon finding out that additional measures are needed to increase safety, it is too much for the people to ask the MRT to absorb the cost of doing so?
4. Mr. Goh Meng Seng was indeed thinking of you when he proposed that sound barriers be put up (why of course unless you happen to be deaf), he never said that commuters be asked to foot the cost. Only the Govt said that. So was Mr. Goh Meng Seng thinking for the people or the Govt. thinking for the people?
5. You seem to be very sure that the MRT sound levels “are already kept to a minimum”. Are you saying that they can never be improved? Or rather from your tone, are you saying that “it is already very quiet, so let no one breathe word about it being noisy”?
6. What hidden agenda and main purpose is Mr. Goh Meng Seng having? I have been looking at it and I canÂ’t seem to notice anything so can you enlighten me and the forum?
7. The MRT was built using S$5 billion in StateÂ’s money in a follow up from an initial plan by ex-DPM and late 1st EP Mr. Ong Teng Cheong (tribute delivered standing and with salute). Thereafter, it was run as a commercial entity for profit. It has had a monopoly but had the benefit of several fare increases to pay for its operating costs AND MAKE PROFIT. Best of all it largely charges on a per ride basis i.e. you pay for each ride you make. Nothing on the MRT is free.
Mr. Low Thia Khiang & Mr. Chiam See Tong serve people who come to them for help on the very allowance given to them as MPs. They do not charge when people come see them for help.
Is there a basis for comparison?
If according to your reasoning the MRT has helped people. LTK and CST are saints!
8. The noises that the MRT makes is not sin. Mr. Goh Meng Seng certainly did not put it that way. However, just to let you know, speaking rudely, badly and ill of others without justification is a sin.
9. You equate Goh Meng Seng with the WP and WP with the Opposition and Goh Meng Seng with the Opposition. Let me correct your misguided notions:
a. Goh Meng Seng is a member of WP.
b. WP is an Opposition party.
c. Goh Meng Seng is an Opposition member.
d. Goh Meng Seng is a subset of WP and WP is a subset of the Opposition.
These terms are not equal. By the way, Ministry of Education teaches this at the primary school level.
10. Do you know the meaning of “discredit”? Please explain how the Government has been discredited by the discussion.
11. Do you know the meaning of “defaming”? Do find out about defamation law first before shooting off without thinking.
12. Judging on a level playing field basis, 2 opposition MPs have already beaten 82 PAP MPs in the running of town councils at a given conservancy charge. Taking this basis for comparison further: If the opposition comes into power and having control of all the resources that the PAP has at its disposal now, much more can be achieved at lower cost and you and your kakisÂ’ lives will be better.
13. does similar agenda = sound economic policies?
Totally irresponsible.
Thank goodness you are only making (and you only dare to make) such remarks against the Opposition which values:
a. Freedom of speech;
b. Right of the individual to express his or her views;
c. Alternative opinions and views.
And so nothing will happen to you. At best you will be ignored, at worst you will just be corrected.
Try making such irresponsible remarks against the PAP and you will find yourself running for your life and will have to change your Login to “runningformylife”.
Food for thought. -
ha haOriginally posted by paperchicken:let your previous postings speak for themselves too.
They sure do. -
ha haOriginally posted by papertiger:under the current govt we pay and pay if these jokers come into power we have to pay until we die.
now you are getting hilarious ... i dont think you are meking sense.
but do please explain i think you have a chance at saving grace. -
Its good that you have no complaints. that means life has been treating you well. i am quite lucky too. However not all singaporeans are that lucky and there is a need not to just look at our selves and not care about our fellow countrymen. If the government has been making life more and more difficult, they must be checked.Originally posted by glorfindel:I believe that sound barriers are quite unnecessary, and the way our MRTs now, are just fine. It's not really far from our houses. Also, I do not believe the MRT makes a lot of noise. I think most of the noise originates from all the announcements, bells and what have you's. Plus, the population density is higher in Hong Kong than it is in SG, so maybe that's why they need to pack it all closer, whereas we can have a more open environment.
Why should you have so many complaints about the government? Can you do better than them? If so, why don't you try to get yourself elected? If not, save your complaints.
You have a point there but there is no reason not to strive for improvement.
and improvement in noise levels does not necessarily mean higher fares because the MRT makes profit and should pay from its profit.
Its the people led by the opposition who must tell the government which runs the MRT that that be so. -
Frankly, from your posts i dun expect you to support the opposition even if we try our best to answer to your whims and fancies, you are just too prejudiced or else you are with the PAP.Originally posted by papertiger:I dun expect the opposition to be an expert in everything but dun expect me to support an opposition thats good for nothing. -
Come to think of it either you are a misguided PAP fella or else someone from the opposition must have offended you before.Originally posted by papertiger:you are the one who's full of rubbish.
Our exchanges with the PAP have been more cordial than with you. -
Poor misguided PAP-er-tigerOriginally posted by papertiger:the issue of sound barrier is raised by you and now you say the govt shd do the relevant studies. another forummer here has shown you research done in other country yet you choose to turn a blind eye to it. we really must pray if ppl like you and your fren get elected.
Now you are getting it.
The government must be held accountable for its policies and do the research that justifies their policies. This is the main gist of parliamentary democracy.
They are getting paid and they have manpower and money at their disposal so they are the ones to do it.
If we are not getting paid and we have to do everything, then what is the Govt for?
You are really a PAP tiger. -
Originally posted by Chia Ti Lik:ha ha
now you are getting hilarious ... i dont think you are making sense.
but do please explain i think you have a chance at saving grace.