Sound Barriers for Highways and MRT
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Dear Papertiger,
You thought calling people "rubbish" is easy is it?
I don't just tell people off as "rubbish" if I can't qualify it.
But asking you to qualify anything would seem to be overly demanding, I guess. I will leave it as it is.
Goh Meng SengOriginally posted by papertiger:you are the one who's full of rubbish.
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Orr.. like that har. But your initial post sounds very strong leh, like you already know building the sound barrier is the right thing to do leh. Now you say need to study. Not to say cannot suggest and comment. But don't like it when you behave like you know it is wrong. Then when asked, you say must study. I rather you highlight things in a more subtle manner if you are not so sure.Originally posted by goh meng seng:Dear Qitai,
Since you say I didn't answer your question, I will do it now.
If you want to have a detailed study on this, there are alot on the internet. I have just given a very good link in my response to some misleading information. These are done by academics in Hong Kong, with regard to the effectiveness of noise barriers, using different materials. However, if you are asking me to do a study in Singapore, please lah, this is the govt's job! I don't pretend to be the govt when I am not! Unless the govt is willing commission a study on this, fund this project, then I may do my best helping with the study, even though I am not a trained engineer, I think I could contribute. That's what govt is for! To provide "public goods" such as infrastrucutres and such. One must understand the role of govt before we expect everyone to become govt.
If the workings of a government is based on "complains" from Singaporeans, then that's very sad. That's the would be the most ineffective govt. For problems we cannot see, we depend on feedbacks. For problems we spot, we solve it through our own initiatvies. Simple as that.
The most common misconceptions of Singaporeans are that when they vote for anyone, they expect them to be expert in everything; for opposition, they expect them to become govt! Hey, the whole govt is run by civil service! That's what parliamentary democracy is all about! Those ministers are decision makers, giving directions BASED ON whatever information the civil servants provide them! They do not necessary know every bolts and knots of the ministry!
You may not be affected by such noise level, but there is a simple way you could find out whether it is acceptable to you. Goto AMK MRT station, walk to blk 50X, sit down there for a couple of hours in the afternoon. OR just take a look at your street directory. Look for the block built in Simei which is just next to the highway. Visit that place, sit down there.
PAP has many resources to do their own research. We don't. But empathy is what I have because I am more aware of my surroundings, more aware of the problems my fellow Singaporeans face which most of the time, they prefer to suffer in silence.
Goh Meng Seng
Anyway, not saying you are wrong. Just please do not come up with such a strong statement only to retract to "need to study" by government later. Feels like tiger head snake tail like that.
Additionally, I rather look for a leader with a vision. So far, you have not impress me. Though, on the good side, you are the best opposition I have seen so far on this forum board. On the bad side, you can also read it as opposition here on this board is pathetic -
I think there's enough discussion on the sound barrier. We can talk till the cow goes home and there will be no conclusion.
Next topic please.
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I am confident that my proposal is worth carrying out because I am now living in a place that benefits from such noise barriers. I also do research on this subject, as you have seen, though I am not engineering trained. I don't bullshit or just shoot down other people's assertions just like that.
But if you really doubt the "necessity", then please ask the govt to do a feasibility study. Simple as that.
Goh Meng SengOriginally posted by Qitai:Orr.. like that har. But your initial post sounds very strong leh, like you already know building the sound barrier is the right thing to do leh. Now you say need to study. Not to say cannot suggest and comment. But don't like it when you behave like you know it is wrong. Then when asked, you say must study. I rather you highlight things in a more subtle manner if you are not so sure.
Anyway, not saying you are wrong. Just please do not come up with such a strong statement only to retract to "need to study" by government later. Feels like tiger head snake tail like that.
Additionally, I rather look for a leader with a vision. So far, you have not impress me. Though, on the good side, you are the best opposition I have seen so far on this forum board. On the bad side, you can also read it as opposition here on this board is pathetic -
in that case, i propose that roads shouldn't be built next to HDB estates, this is because roads constantly have cars which emit poisonous gases such as sulphur dioxide, and also poses a noise problem. DUH.
the mrt noise has been kept to a minimum. and btw, mr goh meng seng, to show how illogical you are. Look at HDB prices around, surrounding MRT stations, their price are sky-high. i'm sure these people have much more to say about MRT sounds than you. if they, the heartlanders do not complain, and instead are willing to pay more for them, it just shows that the NOISE ISSUE is insignificant.
i bet the opposition would have better issues to discuss upon other than minimising noise levels of MRT. -
For years planes landed and took off day and night at HK Kai Tak Airport but when the airport was moved, many residents came to see the last plane took off and said they would miss the noise. I heard the same thing in Guangzhou when they moved to the new airport recently. I think we need to do a survey first to see how many people really are affected by noise, how bad is the noise and to what extend can we and do we want to improve the noise level. HDB, private condos or houses near MRT stations fetch higher values due to convenience. If noise level is reduced then values of properties near MRT would be enhanced further, may be should ask the owners to pay part of the bills.Originally posted by goh meng seng:I am confident that my proposal is worth carrying out because I am now living in a place that benefits from such noise barriers. I also do research on this subject, as you have seen, though I am not engineering trained. I don't bullshit or just shoot down other people's assertions just like that.
But if you really doubt the "necessity", then please ask the govt to do a feasibility study. Simple as that.
Goh Meng Seng
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For all u might know..
u could be the only one complaining
dont see people writing to Streats or Today about it
or is that you are running out of topics to bring up
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If you cannot tell the difference between Highway and normal service trunk road, then I really dunno what to say!
The main problem is we have scarce land and it is inevitable that at some place, we have residential flats built next to a highway or MRT track. The next best thing we could do is to put up effective sound barriers.
You are missing the point altogether. Those "very good price" HDB flats don't sit next to a MRT track! You don't even know the difference between sitting next to a MRT track and "near" to a MRT station! I give up.
Sometimes, I really think that Singaporeans deserve the sub standard govt they are having. They are unaware of alternative ways of better living and would take whatever the govt gives them! And even when information is made available for them to show that they could possibly have a better quality living, they don't even know how to press for it! And they even want to use substandard logic to argue for the sake of argument! Sigh!
No wonder when HDB has design flaws on the windows rivets, they push it and shove it down to HDB flat owners, people just suffer in silence! The non-existence of noise barriers is a design flaw and yet, they prefer to suffer in silence! Alamek! How to reach Swiss Standards of Living like that!
Goh Meng SengOriginally posted by runningismylife:in that case, i propose that roads shouldn't be built next to HDB estates, this is because roads constantly have cars which emit poisonous gases such as sulphur dioxide, and also poses a noise problem. DUH.
the mrt noise has been kept to a minimum. and btw, mr goh meng seng, to show how illogical you are. Look at HDB prices around, surrounding MRT stations, their price are sky-high. i'm sure these people have much more to say about MRT sounds than you. if they, the heartlanders do not complain, and instead are willing to pay more for them, it just shows that the NOISE ISSUE is insignificant.
i bet the opposition would have better issues to discuss upon other than minimising noise levels of MRT. -
Do you live your life by the newspaper?
Do you take whatever the newspaper of Singapore says as "golden truth"? Anything not mentioned in them must be "fictitious"?
Arrrgh! I think you are very young indeed! You should live beyond the words of those social engineering and proporgandas; maybe living outside Singapore for a while will give you a breathing space; but yet, there are Singaporeans who live in other places, keep complaining about their host countries! They feel that Singapore, through the newspapers they read, is the BEST in the world!
I would have to admit, our greatest enemy isn't PAP or even the controlled mass media, but its the general mindsets deep rooted in Singaporeans!
Goh Meng SengOriginally posted by Sagara:For all u might know..
u could be the only one complaining
dont see people writing to Streats or Today about it
or is that you are running out of topics to bring up -
So, other than your personal experience (which I do not doubt), what research have you done so far to make you so confident about this proposal? Also, was this feedback given at all? Things like feedback to LTA and MP? (Yeap, I know maybe this sounds strange to approach a PAP MP from an opposition, but they should serve any resident regardless of who you support). Just curious as to what you have already done to conjure your level of confidence on this proposal.Originally posted by goh meng seng:I am confident that my proposal is worth carrying out because I am now living in a place that benefits from such noise barriers. I also do research on this subject, as you have seen, though I am not engineering trained. I don't bullshit or just shoot down other people's assertions just like that.
But if you really doubt the "necessity", then please ask the govt to do a feasibility study. Simple as that.
Goh Meng Seng
From a more realistic angle, if I am in charge, such study will only be made if (1) there are a lot of feedback on this or (2) Someone made a very convicing argument that this is indeed a problem. If just one person complain and did not produce any convincing argument, this type of feedback will likely be not followup. If nothing is done even after either of the above is fulfilled, then some people is sleeping on their job. In this case, you need to approach MP. If the MP ignores you as well, then time to vote him away when you get the chance. -
I dun believe there is no human touch from the government? else why build trees and bushes along the expressways, roads, walkways etc?? they may not be effective sound barriers, but these beautify the environment and incur maintenance cost. do they generate revenue? probably not, unless u consider the generation of revenue in a very very indirect manner...
i'm not sure wat u mean by sound barrier, but are they to be built on existing tracks or do you need additional land beside the tracks to build the barriers? many of our mrt tracks are adjacent to major roads...
though i do concede our mrts are noisy. they are running on steel wheels on steel tracks... -
I live next to a Cat 2 road junction, used by ambulances to a major A&E hospital. Everyday and night, got pe po pe po.. Worse.. I also got shopping centre exhaust vent nearby.
I also want sound barrier.
If authorities are going to provide sound barriers for Highways and MRT, then I also want. Have to be fair right?
The current guidelines for sound barriers is based on ambient sound levels. If above a certain threshold.. then it is mandated that sound barriers be installed. This is a measurable and objective criteria to determine if barriers are required. The issue is.. is that average threshold too high?
Actually..if I want to pursue the issue of a quiet neighbouhood, I rather take issue with those Msian bikes and lorries and those High Capicity bikes that makes tons of noise when revved high.
For LRT/MRT stations.. I think they shd encase the stations with a shopping centre.. then no sound issue. Would look very impressive also. -
Dear Qitai,
A govt cannot run as you say, waiting for people's feedback! Of course, it is good for govt to be able to listen to people's feedback, but itself must be able to take initiative in doing the right thing to serve the people!
You did not live near any MRT track nor highway, thus you don't know the inherent problems that those people are suffering in silence. No complains mean no problem? That's pretty naive. Tell you a typical story. We were doing walkabout in Ang Mo Kio and there were lots of complains about mosquito bites, due to the delayed upgrading projects. But when we tell them they should write to the Town Council or that we could help them to write to the Town Council, no one take up the challenge! Why? Nobody wants to be seen as "trouble makers"! And they are fearful of the "repurcussions" of being "marked"! Hahahahaha.... to us, it seems to be unbelievable but such fear does exist afterall.
Well, there are many different designs of noise barriers but there is one particular type that I am very interested in. It is not merely a upright vertical sound barrier, but it has a forty five degree slanted top. This slanting actually bounces the noise back to the ground and it could help to block the noise from high rise flats.
Artificial noise barriers have advantages over trees, not only more effective, but it doesn't need trimming every now and then! It needs less space and could easily install, without having to wait for the trees to grow! Sometimes, it will take at least 5 years for the trees planted to grow big enough!
I do not think approaching MP is useful. Even approaching minister has little effect. As I have explained, arm chair critics or even the feedback unit has little effect or impact on policy making. You don't believe? You should ask those people who have participated in feedback unit sessions in the past!
PAP only concerns about its power base; It knows that if the system remains as single wards, it will lose at least 30% of the seats! Thus, it come up with GRC system. But how long could it defend GRC? Thus, the only way to make PAP wakes up from slumber land, is via political competition. You hit at the place where they are more concerned of. Then they will response. There are many stories I could tell you about how political competition has made PAP reacted to many situation which in normal circumstances, they won't even bother.
Goh Meng SengOriginally posted by Qitai:So, other than your personal experience (which I do not doubt), what research have you done so far to make you so confident about this proposal? Also, was this feedback given at all? Things like feedback to LTA and MP? (Yeap, I know maybe this sounds strange to approach a PAP MP from an opposition, but they should serve any resident regardless of who you support). Just curious as to what you have already done to conjure your level of confidence on this proposal.
From a more realistic angle, if I am in charge, such study will only be made if (1) there are a lot of feedback on this or (2) Someone made a very convicing argument that this is indeed a problem. If just one person complain and did not produce any convincing argument, this type of feedback will likely be not followup. If nothing is done even after either of the above is fulfilled, then some people is sleeping on their job. In this case, you need to approach MP. If the MP ignores you as well, then time to vote him away when you get the chance. -
You are right to say that one should not wait for feedback. As it is, we do not even know if this study has even been made already and concluded as not feasible. But without giving feedback, you do not even know if this study is already done.Originally posted by goh meng seng:Dear Qitai,
A govt cannot run as you say, waiting for people's feedback! Of course, it is good for govt to be able to listen to people's feedback, but itself must be able to take initiative in doing the right thing to serve the people!
You did not live near any MRT track nor highway, thus you don't know the inherent problems that those people are suffering in silence. No complains mean no problem? That's pretty naive. Tell you a typical story. We were doing walkabout in Ang Mo Kio and there were lots of complains about mosquito bites, due to the delayed upgrading projects. But when we tell them they should write to the Town Council or that we could help them to write to the Town Council, no one take up the challenge! Why? Nobody wants to be seen as "trouble makers"! And they are fearful of the "repurcussions" of being "marked"! Hahahahaha.... to us, it seems to be unbelievable but such fear does exist afterall.
Well, there are many different designs of noise barriers but there is one particular type that I am very interested in. It is not merely a upright vertical sound barrier, but it has a forty five degree slanted top. This slanting actually bounces the noise back to the ground and it could help to block the noise from high rise flats.
Artificial noise barriers have advantages over trees, not only more effective, but it doesn't need trimming every now and then! It needs less space and could easily install, without having to wait for the trees to grow! Sometimes, it will take at least 5 years for the trees planted to grow big enough!
I do not think approaching MP is useful. Even approaching minister has little effect. As I have explained, arm chair critics or even the feedback unit has little effect or impact on policy making. You don't believe? You should ask those people who have participated in feedback unit sessions in the past!
PAP only concerns about its power base; It knows that if the system remains as single wards, it will lose at least 30% of the seats! Thus, it come up with GRC system. But how long could it defend GRC? Thus, the only way to make PAP wakes up from slumber land, is via political competition. You hit at the place where they are more concerned of. Then they will response. There are many stories I could tell you about how political competition has made PAP reacted to many situation which in normal circumstances, they won't even bother.
Goh Meng Seng
So, here you are complaining about this problem, not even knowing if this study has been done and expressing so much confidence that this should be build. And lameting that feedback is useless when it seems that you have not even done it. On top of it, you say you are opposition. Now, what kind of picture should I draw base on this information? Empty talks it seems.
Sadly, if this is the kind of opposition you are, then I am very very disappointed with you. -
Dear Qitai,
As far as I know, there are no documentation available on the net by the Singapore govt authority on noise barrier for roads or land transport. LTA website does not carry any issue on noise control. I presume that they don't take noise control into consideration in their city planning of land transport. That is why I claim that Singapore govt is not human orientated when it comes to governing in my original post. How come you conclude that I don't know whether there are studies done on this topic? It is precisely I know they don't have any documentation on this put up on the net, I suggest you ask the PAP govt to do feasibility studies! You are jumping into conclusions that suit your bias view!
I could only provide what I have found here in Hong Kong. Due to their effort of putting priority in reducing noise pollution due to land transportation, much research has been done on this noise barrier topic. I express confidence because I see the benefits and I experience the problems back home. But if you are not convinced as most probably you don't live next to the highway or the MRT track, you will only be "convinced" by feasibility studies!
And you must understand something. Not even PAP itself could provide you any "data collection" or "research". All those research papers you see them presenting are done by instituitions funded by public taxes! You are not being objective but bias on this aspect.
In Hong Kong, if you are elected to be the representative in Legco, you are entitled to grants to rent a proper office and employ staffs to help you function as the representatives. Though there are some abuses on these grants, but overall, it helps the representatives to have funds to do more work and research on various issues. Do Singapore has that?
As for the ineffectiveness of feedback unit, if you have issues on this one, please lah, go and talk to those who have participated in it! It is not my own opinion that it doesn't work that way, it is those people who have first hand experience that say it doesn't work! Have you done your own research by asking around?
Please lah, I have shown you enough details on why I think sound barriers are effective and beneficial to our living environment. And you still claim that these are "empty talks"? I think you are engaging in empty talks just to shoot people down without any justifications! If this is about empty talks, I won't be able to shoot people down of putting up misleading information here!
And for a people like you who will straight away proclaim opposition is useless or unworthy without doing any research into what we do in and outside of parliament, I really doubt you have the higher moral grounds to stand on to accuse me of the lack of research!
And it is strange that you could actually conclude the "whole opposition" as useless when what you have engaged here is only two of us. Talk about objectivity! This is the usual tactic used by PAP camp and the controlled mass media! You don't even know me well enough to come to any conclusion!
I respect Paperchicken for he would hold his fire and think again. Give credits to good idea when it deserves it. I may be wrong about him that he is not middle ground voter. But for people like you, I think you only deserve the mediocre PAP MPs and govt.
Goh Meng SengOriginally posted by Qitai:You are right to say that one should not wait for feedback. As it is, we do not even know if this study has even been made already and concluded as not feasible. But without giving feedback, you do not even know if this study is already done.
So, here you are complaining about this problem, not even knowing if this study has been done and expressing so much confidence that this should be build. And lameting that feedback is useless when it seems that you have not even done it. On top of it, you say you are opposition. Now, what kind of picture should I draw base on this information? Empty talks it seems.
Sadly, if this is the kind of opposition you are, then I am very very disappointed with you. -
I see destruction energy again. So, I will not continue this with you. You speak more than you listen.
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he make nonsensical balderdash to attack the Government.
i feel so proud of the Opposition in the forums. way to go man! -
Since opinions are not free, here's my 2 cents worth.Originally posted by Qitai:I see destruction energy again. So, I will not continue this with you. You speak more than you listen.
I been reading the thread because I've found Mr Goh to be a refreshing change from the usual opposition rhetoric.
He has made some interesting and valid observations.
As much as you exhort him to listen, I would suggest we extend him the same courtesy.
Thank you. -
Respect must be mutual.Originally posted by autarchic:Since opinions are not free, here's my 2 cents worth.
I been reading the thread because I've found Mr Goh to be a refreshing change from the usual opposition rhetoric.
He has made some interesting and valid observations.
As much as you exhort him to listen, I would suggest we extend him the same courtesy.
Thank you. -
Yes, he is much better than the rest. I do not deny that. But the last message alerady has him started to make personal attacks. I have spend enough time in the past only to realize in the end I am wasting my tme against people who would go to the point of making personal attacks. He made good retorts, but the last message has reached a point where I feel it is meaningless to continue the discussion.Originally posted by autarchic:Since opinions are not free, here's my 2 cents worth.
I been reading the thread because I've found Mr Goh to be a refreshing change from the usual opposition rhetoric.
He has made some interesting and valid observations.
As much as you exhort him to listen, I would suggest we extend him the same courtesy.
Thank you.
I have never deny the issue brought up may be valid. But the expression right from the beginning of beng so confident that he is right, followed by eventual admission that he has not done any conclusive research to point out that this is indeed a problem is very disappointed. The facts provided so far are research done on different environments which are not conclusive. The biggest disappointment of course is totally avoiding the proper channel believing it is useless and resorting to reaching a channel that cannot solve the problem at all. This to me is a sign of not wanting to solve the problem but wanting to use it as a chip for opposition purpose.
That said, he has posted several good articles on this website to highlight several issues of unfairness to the opposition (e.g. the singpower voucher issue). That, I appaluse. However, on the issue on this thread, I cannot agree with him due to lack of proper action and research being done. This is similar to me having a lot of strange ideas that I think is good. But I will never say I am right, but would rather point out such possibility for all to discussed.
The only conclusion that I can have so far after so many replies is that there is nothing conclusive at all, whether it is indeed a problem in the first place and whether the proposed solution is feasible or not. -
Dear Qitai,
I qualify what I said but you don't. Yet, you keep saying we don't provide enough for your consumption? I am really puzzled.
Even PAP, as a political party, cannot provide you such "localized" research! They depended very much on the country's machineries to do all the dirty work for them! It is unfair for you to demand such detailed studies from us.
As I have pointed out, the comments made against the Feedback Unit are from people who used to get involved in the whole process. Eventually, they gave up. There are just too many OB markers around. Contrary to what you assert that I don't even try Feedback Unit, I did send my electronic "application" to them you know! OF course, to test out their truly "inclusiveness" I flatly state that I am a member of Workers' Party. So far, no reply! (I expect them to reply via email) I have done this for about three weeks already, waiting for their reply and actions! Thus again, you have jumped the gun, from your biasness.
If you want to try, you could bring this idea to them. Tell them, look, LTA doesn't even put emphasis on noise control according to stuffs they put up in their website. Why not try this out.
The idea is definitely feasible, in my opinion and the research I have done so far. Places with scarcity of land are using such technology to improve their living conditions. MRT will definitely tell you all the story how the noise is kept "at minimum", but please don't forget, we are not the technology inventor of the train system! We cannot be "better" than countries like Japan or even Hong Kong! For your information, the MRT system is built with the help from BOTH the Japanese and Hong Kong consultants! Why I know? Because one of the consultant happens to be my Hong Kong friend!
If you haven't notice, in the past, there were very few flats built just next to Highway. But in recent years/decade, we begin to see flats built just next to highways. They try to build those multi-storey carparks just next to the highway, acting as noise barrier; but that is not an effective way. Well, at least they recognize the need to have noise barrier but didn't explore further.
The problem cannot be and should not be expected to be solved at our level. This is public good that should be provided by the govt. That's what govt is for....not to set up GLCs and compete with local enterprise, but to provide public goods like these. This is the basic role of govt. The govt has apparently not updated their selfclaimed "World Class Transport System" protocol to include noise control barriers, basically because, in the past, very few flats are built next to highway and MRT tracks. It is just a good to make the wake up call.
Goh Meng SengOriginally posted by Qitai:Yes, he is much better than the rest. I do not deny that. But the last message alerady has him started to make personal attacks. I have spend enough time in the past only to realize in the end I am wasting my tme against people who would go to the point of making personal attacks. He made good retorts, but the last message has reached a point where I feel it is meaningless to continue the discussion.
I have never deny the issue brought up may be valid. But the expression right from the beginning of beng so confident that he is right, followed by eventual admission that he has not done any conclusive research to point out that this is indeed a problem is very disappointed. The facts provided so far are research done on different environments which are not conclusive. The biggest disappointment of course is totally avoiding the proper channel believing it is useless and resorting to reaching a channel that cannot solve the problem at all. This to me is a sign of not wanting to solve the problem but wanting to use it as a chip for opposition purpose.
That said, he has posted several good articles on this website to highlight several issues of unfairness to the opposition (e.g. the singpower voucher issue). That, I appaluse. However, on the issue on this thread, I cannot agree with him due to lack of proper action and research being done. This is similar to me having a lot of strange ideas that I think is good. But I will never say I am right, but would rather point out such possibility for all to discussed.
The only conclusion that I can have so far after so many replies is that there is nothing conclusive at all, whether it is indeed a problem in the first place and whether the proposed solution is feasible or not. -
zzzz ..... this thread shd have ended long ago. i dun see how any further posting can add any value to it.
Next topic pls. -
Originally posted by goh meng seng:
Spend public money building expensive barriers so you can benefit yourself ?
I am confident that my proposal is worth carrying out because [b]I am now living in a place that benefits from such noise barriers. I also do research on this subject, as you have seen, though I am not engineering trained. I don't bullshit or just shoot down other people's assertions just like that.
But if you really doubt the "necessity", then please ask the govt to do a feasibility study. Simple as that.
Goh Meng Seng
[/b] -
So are you trying to say that sound barriers ar ineffective? In this case People with sound barriers installed in their home would be replacing them with trees right? Obviously trees are not that effective which lead to the creation of sound barriers.Originally posted by papertiger:you dun need to be an expert in acoustics to know that those trees and bushes help to reduce the noise level. -
Sound barriers offer some degree of damping for residential homes in direct line of sight of the source. For low rise properties, a sound barrier wall may be of some comfort. But when dealing with a high rise next to a busy road, the barrier needs to be in the form of a tunnel to be effective.