Opposition Party Memebers Here are pathetic
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If the govt is run by ppl like you there's no hope for the country.Originally posted by Chia Ti Lik:my answer to you is YES WE CAN. Why
voting out the PAP means only 84 PAP MPs are shown the boot.
You have the SAF intact, you have the Police Intact, LTA is intact, MRT is intact NEL is intact SCDF is intact, LTA is intact, Town councils are intact, HDB is intact, Hospitals intact, NTUC intact, Temasek intact, you have the Courts and all other miinistries and statutory boards and whatever departments intact.
So why can't we run the show? (actually not me only lah but many other capable people in line)
Please understand the separation of the Executive (Government), the Legislature (Parliament) and the Judiciary (Courts)
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True. people say why we wanna look for trouble?Originally posted by The Void Deck:Politics is ugly lor. Opposition must not use these realistic oppressive MIW obstacles to give up and lose hope. These sort of political tactics happen everywhere.
Why challenge when there is danger?
The reason is this:
If it is safe, then there is no chance of oppression and abuse. how then will there be a need to challenge?
Simply because it is unsafe that is why someone must challenge!
It is simply because the ruling party engages in all sorts of tricks that is why there must be an end to it.
Or else what happens? the MIW stroll into parliament and take the people for granted. Bad policies follow and life gets tough. Like what is happening now. -
Your post shows your lack of understanding in the basic fundamentals of parliamentary democracy. You sound very young so i dont blame you.Originally posted by paperchicken:If the govt is run by ppl like you there's no hope for the country. -
you sound like an idiot. i dun blame you either.Originally posted by Chia Ti Lik:Your post shows your lack of understanding in the basic fundamentals of parliamentary democracy. You sound very young so i dont blame you. -
ha ha another PAP fella.Originally posted by paperchicken:you are really pathatic.
PAP-er-chicken
Now you sure you wanna join in the fray?
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PaperchickenOriginally posted by paperchicken:you sound like an idiot. i dun blame you either.
Good attempt but not good enough.
Try harder. i am going off from work to go home liao. Got limited time to play with you guys.
I will be silent throughout the night. Make use fo this time and gimme your best shot chick! -
you are really childish. how old are you ?Originally posted by Chia Ti Lik:ha ha another PAP fella.
PAP-er-chicken
Now you sure you wanna join in the fray? -
So far, I see more destruction energy than creation energy. I do not like an opposition who breeds on hatred. Rather see more creation energy.Originally posted by Chia Ti Lik:Qitai
Its not that you are not important. Its that we cannot please everyone. As it can be shown by the exchange. It is beyond our abilities and that of the PAP too!
Rest assured. i can see you. you are important.
It is hilarious but also saddening in a way. Even our opponents the PAP in our exchanges treat us with more respect than some of the forumites here.
Sigh! what to do, when we first stood out we were told that it will never be easy. People will jump at all opportunities to criticise you because they dare not do so against the ruling party and they want to justify the sorry state of affairs in Singapore.
People must understand that the PAP is like this today simply because the Singapore People allowed them to do so. And for so long. The opposition too did not get its act together. If a check is required, the people can only do so hand in hand with the opposition and also the other way round.
But now the misconception of the duty of the opposition and the impression has been spoiled by the PAP and ingrained in an entire generation of Singaporeans. It will take time to change.
Engaging in a firefight is not Meng Seng and i wanted but we had to engage in order to show the prejudice and stupidity that runs through some of the opposition haters.
These people claim that they want an opposition but if they are so demanding of the opposition, the opposition will never be good enough for them.
Sigh! We have taken the step and we shall run the gauntlet with no regrets.
this is our path. it cannot be avoided.
We only wish that more Singaporeans will be awakened.
Warmest Regards. -
Uncle Goh still ok lah. His buddy really pathetic.Originally posted by Qitai:So far, I see more destruction energy than creation energy. I do not like an opposition who breeds on hatred. Rather see more creation energy. -
Actually, most of what Robert said is true. Go read articles on TVD, or even on YPAPbbs, and check out Singapore Elections as well (hhtp://www.singapore-elections.org). Check out thinkcentre.org's Links Page and newsintercom.org's links as well, adn you'll find that Robert's claimas are rather true. If you want more evidence, go check Reporters Without Borders (RSF) and Freedom House, or even Amnesty International. These are not western-biased organizations; They criticize EU and the USA as much as Asia. And just to show that their criticism is not for the sake of criticism, Amnesty International's reports on New Zealand and NZ and RSF does not make reports on countries with Good Press Freedom like Finland.Originally posted by papertiger:You are the one who has been brain wash.
the pikamaster -
The Philipines have a free press and US style democracy so are they better off than us today ?Originally posted by pikamaster:Actually, most of what Robert said is true. Go read articles on TVD, or even on YPAPbbs, and check out Singapore Elections as well (hhtp://www.singapore-elections.org). Check out thinkcentre.org's Links Page and newsintercom.org's links as well, adn you'll find that Robert's claimas are rather true. If you want more evidence, go check Reporters Without Borders (RSF) and Freedom House, or even Amnesty International. These are not western-biased organizations; They criticize EU and the USA as much as Asia. And just to show that their criticism is not for the sake of criticism, Amnesty International's reports on New Zealand and NZ and RSF does not make reports on countries with Good Press Freedom like Finland.
the pikamaster -
spam.Originally posted by Qitai:Brain washed record player. My, this type of repeat telecast made me hate something which I do not hate intially.
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After reading all these articles on TVD...checking out those websites....you are certainly brainwashed.Originally posted by pikamaster:Actually, most of what Robert said is true. Go read articles on TVD, or even on YPAPbbs, and check out Singapore Elections as well (hhtp://www.singapore-elections.org). Check out thinkcentre.org's Links Page and newsintercom.org's links as well, adn you'll find that Robert's claimas are rather true. If you want more evidence, go check Reporters Without Borders (RSF) and Freedom House, or even Amnesty International. These are not western-biased organizations; They criticize EU and the USA as much as Asia. And just to show that their criticism is not for the sake of criticism, Amnesty International's reports on New Zealand and NZ and RSF does not make reports on countries with Good Press Freedom like Finland.
the pikamaster
It is not what these people say, it is what we know is good for us, what is applicable to us. Finally, we are the one in it, not them. It is always easy to stand outside and comment/criticize. -
be less of a "die-hard" pls.Originally posted by sgdiehard:After reading all these articles on TVD...checking out those websites....you are certainly brainwashed.
It is not what these people say, it is what we know is good for us, what is applicable to us. Finally, we are the one in it, not them. It is always easy to stand outside and comment/criticize.
Your lines sound like they come from a govt Propaganda machine. And from what you post, I can tell that you clearly have not even looked at those websites yet, so how can you make such a quick comment?
If I were brainwashed, I would be shouting crap right now, not conversing in such a calm voice. After all, brainwashing arouses high passions, especially political brainwashing.
If we stick with the "what we know is good" line, we are being very unreceptive to feedback that could help us improve. The "what we know is good" line has been implanted in us by our "we-know-what-is-best" pseudo-confucian Administration, and might be exactly what is hindering True Progress for us.
And by the way, orgs like AI perform country visits; they don't just "stand outside and criticise".
the hopeful pikamaster
n btw, y dun u have a look at those websites first? -
I did not in anyway say or imply that they came any govt propaganda machine, it is you assumption. I don know if you are shouting as I am only reading what you write. You think you are not shouting because you are not high,Originally posted by pikamaster:be less of a "die-hard" pls.
Your lines sound like they come from a govt Propaganda machine. And from what you post, I can tell that you clearly have not even looked at those websites yet, so how can you make such a quick comment?
If I were brainwashed, I would be shouting crap right now, not conversing in such a calm voice. After all, brainwashing arouses high passions, especially political brainwashing.
If we stick with the "what we know is good" line, we are being very unreceptive to feedback that could help us improve. The "what we know is good" line has been implanted in us by our "we-know-what-is-best" pseudo-confucian Administration, and might be exactly what is hindering True Progress for us.
And by the way, orgs like AI perform country visits; they don't just "stand outside and criticise".
the hopeful pikamaster
n btw, y dun u have a look at those websites first? those who are drunk never admit that they are drunk!
I did not say anything about where these sites are coming from, but surely they have their objectives which I may not agree and I am always doubtful about the support behind them. They could not be doing all these for free.
There is nothing wrong with "I know what is good for myself", for even if I were wrong, I suffer the consequences! I wouldn't be doing anything which i think is not good for me, would you? very simple logic.
Please explain what do you mean by "our "we-know-what-is-best" pseudo-confucian Administration" who are the we? the government? They may think they know what is best but what has that got to do with "what I know is good" if it is good enough for me?
Too many theories and too many non committal politicians, very bad for the opposition lah. Is the moon in america always rounder? is it wrong to have self confidence and be satisfied and proud of ourselves? -
Juz my 2 cents...
in my research for my graduate degree i had to read parliamentary debates of countries like Australia and NZ where opposition members debated with the government. though the opposition( and equally many times the government were wrong) may not be always right but the fact that they were given the right to debate without fear of legal recriminations based on real or alluded offences had a healthy effect on the country. these are
1. there is no given assumption that whoever is in power is always right. so everyone has the right to contribute to the country without being made to feel stupid or worst, fearful. In the debate series, the debaters assume that what the other party says is open to criticism, hence they are prepared to defend with gusto and logic. overall effect, it sharpens the thinking of the country and the open debates, like between latham and howard allowed people to see and hear from themselves who represents them more. Like what roberteh said, the opposition is neutered even b4 they begin. no way u can see credible opposition, because even if they are credible, they won't get much airtime from our media about how good they are. unlike, democratic medias, where the entire government debate are held open for all to see. here, you usually see only the good about PAP rallies and snippets of the opposition doing stupid things. case in point, i remeber the tang liang hong case and the media coverage of the whole issue. can't help but think the whole thing was misrepresented to the public by the media for certain political achievements.
2. it is not true that the statement "we know what is good for you holds true for all governments." thousands of years of recorded human history teaches us that power unchecked corrupts. i was very perturbed when then PM Goh said something to the effect that the PAP proved that the adage "absolute power corrupts absoultely" has been debunked by the PAP because in the 30+ years it held power, it had not been corrupted. think again! the thin line of being corrupted can be crossed by those who define the line, and if history is of any use, it showed us it happened over and over again. the extremely short history of singapore is too short to prove anything. Does the PAP want to bet against thousands of years of recorded history? remeber, they bet, we lose.
That's why mature countries evolved into democracies only after much blood have been shed. because those who hold power would never tolerate opposiition in any form. it is human nature. that is also why an opposition is so important to the continuation of a country's future. what we have here is a form of paying lip service to the form of having an opposition in the political system but much has been done to neuter it. i believe the opposition is not made up of fools but they have certainly been portrayed as such.
so far we have a decent government but again history proved that no dynasty lasted more than 3 good emperors usually. We are into our 3rd PM...do you think the 10th PM of Singapore would be as good as the first? perhaps.
if we test our candidate's either through trials (like Lee Kuan Yew) or through a tough selection/election process against a tough opponent who has nothing to fear speaking up against the imcumbent. i respect LKY because no one can doubt the odds he overcame but our leaders now are groomed, practically from birth, being told that they are somebody, without the test of hardship or elections. perhaps thats y they think they are really somebody and could even imagine that they can even go get themselves in between china and taiwan and think that the people there are gonna be awe-struck by their views. perhaps back here in s'pore they are already too used to having the media agreeing with them and praising them for the 'wisdom' they display in every silly little thing they say.
i fear we are politically inbreeding already. never spelt well for governments in history, would we be different?
sheesh..i am rambling and it is so late...am i making sense? -
for corruption in the pap, it depends on how you see it and to what extend you consider it corruption
if you're asking me , naturally i'll say that the pap is rotten to the core
but for the pap , the line for them is different,
what maybe considered corruption in our eyes maybe be an accepted form of life for them -
Yes everything may be intact, but don't forget none of the opposition has ever come to power and none of them knows how to run a government except maybe a ward or two.Originally posted by Chia Ti Lik:my answer to you is YES WE CAN. Why
voting out the PAP means only 84 PAP MPs are shown the boot.
You have the SAF intact, you have the Police Intact, LTA is intact, MRT is intact NEL is intact SCDF is intact, LTA is intact, Town councils are intact, HDB is intact, Hospitals intact, NTUC intact, Temasek intact, you have the Courts and all other miinistries and statutory boards and whatever departments intact.
So why can't we run the show? (actually not me only lah but many other capable people in line)
Please understand the separation of the Executive (Government), the Legislature (Parliament) and the Judiciary (Courts)
Only PAP has been the ruling party for last 30 odd years thats means the 84 PAP MPs which you are hoping to boot has the membership support from LTA, MRT, SAF, NEL, SCDF, Police and what not.
If I was the ruling party and I just lost majority power to a political newbie opposition before I leave office I will turn everything upside down. And inform all my supporters to not cooperate and drag their feet on general population issues.
By the time the opposition figures out how to run a government the term is up and the people by then has had enough of all the blunders and experimentation c ockups from the new government will be begging for my party's return to power.
Classical case look at indonesia, they didn't want surharto so they brought on in a so call democratic government hoping things would be better, apparently not. In almost 10years they have had 4 governments change hands, civil unrest, another civil war in Acheh, endless riots, ethnic clensing violence and these terroists who were hiding in the shadows now brazenly walk in daylight, need I say more?
The people of indonesia has had enough. And now the they are begging for a military figurehead to return to power as seen in their most recent election.
I don't agree with you. And frankly I don't think you know what the hell you talking about.
Thats why I say if opposition want to come to power can they take over seamlessly? If all the pap ministers just drop everything and walk out tomorrow to go holiday for a year can the current opposition able to come in and 'catch it' and continue to run things as though nothing has happened? -
The answer is yes.
If countries all over the world could do it, why do you think it is impossible to do it here in Singapore? Asian countries did it too; so the "Asian Values" doesn't work here.
People are very "pragmatic", especially in Singapore. PAP thought they have "all the support" from people, but this is superficial. Most of those so call "supporters" only support it when it got the power. They have vested interests. Thus, if it loses power, these supporters will disappear. This happens to Suharto also, who has built up a whole network of "support" but eventually fell through it.
That is what happen to KMT in Taiwan too. However, KMT is slightly better as it could manage to keep its support base, though smaller in size.
Again, such "worry" theory is meaningless. The decay of PAP has begun more than 10 years ago. It is just a matter of time before it totally crumbles. Believe it or not, GRC is really a double edged sword. It is the source of weakness for PAP to evolve into doom. IF PAP doesn't reintroduce political competition via political reforms, it is just a matter of time that PAP would be split and become history in the end.
Goh Meng SengOriginally posted by arburthen?:Yes everything may be intact, but don't forget none of the opposition has ever come to power and none of them knows how to run a government except maybe a ward or two.
Only PAP has been the ruling party for last 30 odd years thats means the 84 PAP MPs which you are hoping to boot has the membership support from LTA, MRT, SAF, NEL, SCDF, Police and what not.
If I was the ruling party and I just lost majority power to a political newbie opposition before I leave office I will turn everything upside down. And inform all my supporters to not cooperate and drag their feet on general population issues.
By the time the opposition figures out how to run a government the term is up and the people by then has had enough of all the blunders and experimentation c ockups from the new government will be begging for my party's return to power.
Classical case look at indonesia, they didn't want surharto so they brought on in a so call democratic government hoping things would be better, apparently not. In almost 10years they have had 4 governments change hands, civil unrest, another civil war in Acheh, endless riots, ethnic clensing violence and these terroists who were hiding in the shadows now brazenly walk in daylight, need I say more?
The people of indonesia has had enough. And now the they are begging for a military figurehead to return to power as seen in their most recent election.
I don't agree with you. And frankly I don't think you know what the hell you talking about.
Thats why I say if opposition want to come to power can they take over seamlessly? If all the pap ministers just drop everything and walk out tomorrow to go holiday for a year can the current opposition able to come in and 'catch it' and continue to run things as though nothing has happened? -
Are you sure it fell thru, no trouble now is only because every government of indonesia that came to power after Suharto has wisely stayed away from investigating him. And now after 10years 'maybe' indonesians will see some light at the end of the tunnel.Originally posted by goh meng seng:The answer is yes.
This happens to Suharto also, who has built up a whole network of "support" but eventually fell through it.
Goh Meng Seng
None of the opposition here in singapore has so shown me any confidence, if you are willing to gamble next 10years of experimentation with an unknown with no key supporters whatsoever in any current government agencies by all means go ahead vote for whomever you want.
But know one thing none of the foreign investors will wait that long, the minute they smell trouble or unrest, they will pack up and go.
I on the other hand will be more willing to wait for PAP to split up at least that way the group that splits away still retains semblence of support from various government agencies. And that is something to show for. -
The way I see it . If I think there is a credible opposition party with credible ideas, I might fly back and do voting as a Singaporean.
CSJ has been hung up and overpublicised as the monkey to lambast other good opposition parties. I don't like his idiotic behaviour who just loves the attention and gets used as an example for the reason not to vote the other side.
To be fair to all , I decided to do a little reading ...
I read the old WP manifesto which is unfortunately the latest 1994 online- I am interested in the revised version for this year. Any WP members care to answer my questions?
Health care ideas are good but unfortunately in the 1994 version of the manifesto , it is not feasible to open more hospital beds nor convalescent since considerations have to be given the international and domestic shortage of nurses as well as the frequent movement of nurses plus other health care professionals across borders. Trained nursing aides or foreign nurses will also backfire on the system in the long term . How would you tackle the problem
Health care costs - how would you propose to balance healthcare cost without creating a long and deep deficit in the budget? Australia , UK - those with public health systems are busting out .
Now education - I like the ideas but I pose this -
university - if tuition fees are kept minimally and places are increased - how would WP propose to keep university facilities and research fully funded and up to date? How about overcrowded classrooms or lecture halls? I would also like to see a graduate entry program for those who are willing to retrain for other professional jobs. Not an important priority for me but I just would like to add
. How about the scholar system? A level scholars? Why not extend psc scholarships to polytechnic students?
Promote tradesmen training like plumbers, electricians and mechanics training but u have to get rid of the stigma of ITE as those who cannot make it anywhere (harsh but the stigma does exist)
I am all for helping the lower income groups but I don't want a welfare state . -
Dear fymk,
Our latest manifesto is at its finalization stage. Hopefully it could be out by year end. I will keep you posted on it.
You have raised very valid and important question; how to finance some of the things mentioned in our manifesto?
I will touch on this one in my "Vision" piece, of the role of government and public Finance.
For the meantime, I am having a little discussion in YPAP forum about this "overall vision", Democratic Socialism. PAP used to subscribed to Democratic Socialism but I think they have abandoned it totally. I will post part of my reply to this vision here.... please bear with me, this is not a complete opinion:
But I think socialism is inevitable. It is a matter of what form of socialism we want. There is a "new form" of socialism evolving in the world.
I believe in Democratic Socialism, just as PAP had believed in it in its foundation years. And it is true, PAP is neither democratic nor socialist after 39 years of evolution.
The ills of capitalism don't lie on the meritocracy it suppose to embrace. It lies on the miscontrued belief of elitism, cronyism as "meritocracy". Thus, in the end, we are walking towards to the similar ends of feudalism, which has proven that it could not work at all. The predicted "uprising" has the root cause of cronyism and elitism, not "meritocracy". In fact, if capitalism could stick closely to the foundation of meritocracy, it could have lasted forever, theoretically.
I do not see socialism as a full control of factors of production. If it is such, then it cannot work as it is against human nature. Ironically, it is a matter of relativity that defines socialism, against the evolving ills of capitalism. Socialism, to a new age definition, is to uphold social justice and equality, in terms of Equal opportunity which is in fact, an extension of meritocracy! Yes, upholding the very foundation of capitalism, meritocracy. Socialism is to preven the evolution of the social ills of elitism and cronyism which would most probably bring us back to feudalism.
It is inevitable that we should have socialism as when capitalism evolves, it will naturally ended up with inequality in income distribution. The only way to prevent "uprising" due to extreme difference in social distribution of wealth, is to have socialism as a mechanism of redistribution of income and resources by means of govt intervention. If not, allowing capitalism to carry on developing without any controls, it will result in what we have now, structural unemployment which will eventually result in extreme poverty within the capitalist system. When resources and job opportunities lessen, cronyism and elitism will take its bite further. It will become a vicious cycle.
Thus, in my view, we will still need a form of democratic socialism to fill up the gaps left by capitalism. PAP seems to have forgotten all its past. They should seriously relook into their idealism again.
Goh Meng SengOriginally posted by fymk:The way I see it . If I think there is a credible opposition party with credible ideas, I might fly back and do voting as a Singaporean.
CSJ has been hung up and overpublicised as the monkey to lambast other good opposition parties. I don't like his idiotic behaviour who just loves the attention and gets used as an example for the reason not to vote the other side.
To be fair to all , I decided to do a little reading ...
I read the old WP manifesto which is unfortunately the latest 1994 online- I am interested in the revised version for this year. Any WP members care to answer my questions?
Health care ideas are good but unfortunately in the 1994 version of the manifesto , it is not feasible to open more hospital beds nor convalescent since considerations have to be given the international and domestic shortage of nurses as well as the frequent movement of nurses plus other health care professionals across borders. Trained nursing aides or foreign nurses will also backfire on the system in the long term . How would you tackle the problem
Health care costs - how would you propose to balance healthcare cost without creating a long and deep deficit in the budget? Australia , UK - those with public health systems are busting out .
Now education - I like the ideas but I pose this -
university - if tuition fees are kept minimally and places are increased - how would WP propose to keep university facilities and research fully funded and up to date? How about overcrowded classrooms or lecture halls? I would also like to see a graduate entry program for those who are willing to retrain for other professional jobs. Not an important priority for me but I just would like to add. How about the scholar system? A level scholars? Why not extend psc scholarships to polytechnic students?
Promote tradesmen training like plumbers, electricians and mechanics training but u have to get rid of the stigma of ITE as those who cannot make it anywhere (harsh but the stigma does exist)
I am all for helping the lower income groups but I don't want a welfare state . -
How do you define breed on hatred?Originally posted by Qitai:So far, I see more destruction energy than creation energy. I do not like an opposition who breeds on hatred. Rather see more creation energy.
What do you mean by creation energy? -
Older than you i hope!Originally posted by paperchicken:you are really childish. how old are you ? -
Finally you got the spelling correct.Originally posted by paperchicken:Uncle Goh still ok lah. His buddy really pathetic.